4-5-1 -> Right idea, wrong cast or bad acting?

Dans

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
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I'm watching Real walking over Roma in the Olympic Stadium playing.........the 4-5-1.

The difference between them and us is the central midfield. Makele, Cambiasso (who is doing amazingly well for a player so new to the first team), Guti and Zidane are simply superb. Guti is the quieter of the four, the other three are everywhere.

The differences are a few:

Each seems to be on a wavelength with the other - they know where they're going to be, the passes nearly always reaching the intended destination.

They are all very strong on the ball, they shield it well and rarely lose it. If they do one of the others is in close attendence and starts hassling to get it back.

There passing is crisp - you don't see players waiting for the ball. Their movement is also exceptional.

They are absolutely walking this game on Roma's turf. The Italians shouldn't even be embarassed - Real are a different class.

Veron is a poor man's Zidane - who isn't, but he could do a similar job - he needs to get stuck in more.

Keane is Keane - he'd fit into any team, Real included.

Beckham would be Figo's equal and more if he stuck to the right and ran at the full backs more often.

Ditto Giggs and lots more.

Butt and Scholes both could perhaps do with being more comfortable holding/shielding the ball - Scholes more so perhaps than Butt.

I can see what Fergie's aiming for I think, perhaps easy to say after seeing Real demolish Rome 3 nil in their own backyard, but it really was a majestic performance and it proved beyond doubt that 4-5-1 is a good system in Europe.
 
they also don;t play with out and out wingers.. and all their players a free to roam around, as long as a teammate fills in.. total football i guess..
 
Maybe we should decide what system we want to play, decide which are the best players to play that system, and then stick with that team, come what may.

Because surely that's the only way to establish teamwork, whatever system we use.
 
How come then it works for them but not for us? Wish I got to see that match and not wimblepool.
 
They were amazing...I really am scared of them. But hey they bought Ronaldo maybe he will mess up their team. Here's to wishful thinking. P.S. their 4-5-1 works better because they have the better players for it. Zidane is the absolute best player in the world to fill the role behind the striker. Then they have Makele who is a business player, gets the job done, works hard, but he has something Keane doesn't, a lot more skill, you could see him and Zidane just knocking balls back and forth like it was nothing. Then to make it all work, they have a striker in Raul who can make the whole system complete. He can hold the ball up better than any striker, but also can work up there by himself and still create something. The whole time he is being supported. United doesn't have that, they just give to Van Nistelrooy and say do what you can. Real Madrid are scary.
 
Always thought you worked the system round the players not the other way round.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>How come then it works for them but not for us? Wish I got to see that match and not wimblepool.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We start off with the intent on crisp passing, quick movement on the counter etc. When it doesn't come off, and more so in recent games. We panick, and start the long-ball tactics. It's frustrating, of all the stregnths in our team, I've always thought midfield/passing was the best.

Perhaps we're trying too hard?
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Originally posted by Waz:
<strong>Always thought you worked the system round the players not the other way round.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why? Surely, having a proven system, then aquiring the players that can improve it is a better strategy? Look what happened when we tried to work the system around Verón.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Maybe we should decide what system we want to play, decide which are the best players to play that system, and then stick with that team, come what may.

Because surely that's the only way to establish teamwork, whatever system we use.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not as if RM doesn't utillize both wings, regardless of who the player might be. ATM, United utillize only the LW. They (esp. Beckham)are caught in the trap of crossing from the centre line and not from goal line.
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Actually, Real only appeared to use Figo as an out and out winger tonight, and he was roaming over to the left at times.
 
i don't see it as the system is at fault, we all know it can work, we saw it last year at Depor and in other matches. I think the problem lies deeper then just the system.. just MHO...
 
I thought it was quite an evenly played match that was defined by two sublime strikes by Guti. Cassano and Delveccio had their chances as well but couldn't poke one in.
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>I thought it was quite an evenly played match that was defined by two sublime strikes by Guti. Cassano and Delveccio had their chances as well but couldn't poke one in.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Huh? Roma weren't in it at all. The subdued stadium said it all.
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The stadium didn't go cold until Guti scored just before the half. Real were the better side, but Roma could've done much better to snuff out at least two of the three goals. Samuel should've at least attempted to block Guti's first instead of trying to protect himself.
 
Yes, but that's the case with most goals scored in football - someone could always have done something to prevent them. Real totally outclassed Roma tonight. Roma had three chances and that was pretty much it, they chased Madrid around the pitch and were completely dictated to.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Maybe we should decide what system we want to play, decide which are the best players to play that system, and then stick with that team, come what may.

Because surely that's the only way to establish teamwork, whatever system we use.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Completely agree.
Our formation has been tinkered with so often that the players don't know whether the're coming or going. How are players like Veron supposed to settle in at a new club when they keep getting moved, asked to play different roles.
Formations, of course, have an effect on the team but they're not the be all and end all. If the players are constantly being moved around they won't be able to play at their best.
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Originally posted by blythy:
<strong>

Why? Surely, having a proven system, then aquiring the players that can improve it is a better strategy? Look what happened when we tried to work the system around Verón.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Veron only seems to want to play long passes, which we lose possession on, I wish we'd see him in fast short intelligent one two's but I don't think he can do that, Scholes can though.
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I'm not discounting that. Let's see how things turn out when Roma get Totti and Batistuta back.
 
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>I'm not discounting that. Let's see how things turn out when Roma get Totti and Batistuta back.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair point, well, Totti anyway.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Huh? Roma weren't in it at all. The subdued stadium said it all.</strong><hr></blockquote>I totally agree with your initial post. Roma should have capitalised on a few half chances early in the first half though.

It does look like they [Real] have the perfect balance throughout the team and they don't need a left sided midfielder because Carlos has boundless energy to get up and down the flank. I thought Del Bosque played the ideal tactic tonight with Guti as the link striker and Makalele as the link midfielder.

It looks like the whole team absolutely knows what their role in the team is, thus, they know where to be almost all the time.

I think that's United's problem, roles aren't defined enough. Only Nicky truly plays like Makalele, the other three, Keano, Scholesy and Seba, all want to be ZZ. IMO, whichever central pair are picked, they should decide whose role is what and stick to it; all this interchanging and floating really hasn't got us anywhere in the past year or so.
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It's great with hindsight to criticise Sir Alex changing the formation.
We'd hit a wall in Europe and Sir Alex felt the reason lay in the fact that we were not controllong the midfield, like we were in the PL. Putting 5 in midfield is the obvious solution.

Bringing in Veron looked like a great move. Acknowldged as one of the best midfielders in the world, adding him to the midfield of: Becks-Scholes/Butt-Keane-Giggs could only make us better. Couldn't it?!?
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Veron only seems to want to play long passes, which we lose possession on, I wish we'd see him in fast short intelligent one two's but I don't think he can do that, Scholes can though.</strong><hr></blockquote>

we lack ONE player who can link up with Ruud.. until that problem is addressed, we won't see the 4'5'1 formaations full potential..
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

we lack ONE player who can link up with Ruud.. until that problem is addressed, we won't see the 4'5'1 formaations full potential..</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Gudjohnsen's the player for us. He's been Chelsea's most consistant striker for the past 3 years without ever being the number 1
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It's quite interesting tho that Real won't be playing 4-5-1 much longer. Or will Raul drop to midfield?
 
I think tho that 4-5-1 for us looks better so far this season compared to last. And we'll always be able to turn to 4-4-2 and that would leave us with two possible formations and would mean much more headache for opposition managers.
 
Originally posted by osterdal:
<strong>I think tho that 4-5-1 for us looks better so far this season compared to last. And we'll always be able to turn to 4-4-2 and that would leave us with two possible formations and would mean much more headache for opposition managers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed.
Although we've always played 4-4-2. It's always been a flexible formation. We need to find that again, we've become too rigid and static. This has made us predictable and teams have learnt how to play us.
Whatever formation we play, we must stick to it. It must, injuries willing, be the basis on which to take the team forward again
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I've been sickened by some of United's performances in the past year, but tonight I had a feeling of optimism.

I think 4-5-1 will work, when we have our full midfield back. In the league, if we can keep playing reasonably well -- as we did against Leeds, but were unlucky not to score or have a penalty -- and stay in touching distance of Arsenal, we'll be stronger for it when Keane and Scholes come back, and when we have a settled back four with Gary Neville back (we have missed him, however much some people dislike him).

But the priority is the Champions League, and for that 4-5-1, with our best players, is ideal. Last season, it almost worked, and we probably would have made the final, had we had Keane and Beckham for the crucial matches. The Deportivo demolition showed our potential. Then we lost Keane, Beckham and G Neville (and Veron was carrying an injury).

Provided we survive the first stage, which we should easily do, in spite of the injuries, things could go well.

Our passing in midfield is excellent, even in bad matches (eg, Middlesboro!).

RVN will recover his form once he scores a couple goals.

Keane and Scholes will return fresh, and barring further injuries, we'll have six of the best midfielders in the world competing for five places.

Always look on the bright side of life...
 
It all depends on who you are playing against. 4:4:2 is brilliant for us at times, but 4:5:1 is the only way that we would play against the likes of Real Madrid. Anything else is suicidal.

The cast is very important though, and we can play it well IMO if we put Butt in the centre of the 5, just sitting in front of the defence and not trying to get involved too far up field, with Keane and then Beckham/Forlan to his right, and Veron/Scholes and Giggs to his left. With RVN in the strike role of course.

The Keane, Veron, Scholes thing will not work IMO. We need to pick just two of those with Butt in the middle. It won't work with Keane in the place of Butt, because he loves to run from box to box so much, and he is one of the only players that can do that, which makes him such a great asset but also rules him out of the Butt role I suggest which is required for the 4:5:1

The extra strike force should come from one of the attacking midfielders (which Keane is a very good one as well as Veron and Scholes) and not from the one resposible for the defensive duties of the formation.

We should never have:

----------------------- GK -----------------------

--- RB ------- CB -------------- CB ------ LB ---

--------------------- Keane ----------------------

--- RM ---- Veron ------------ Scholes ---- LM ---

-------------------- STRIKE ----------------------

It wont work IMO.

This would however:

----------------------- GK -----------------------

--- RB ------- CB -------------- CB ------ LB ---

---------------------- Butt ----------------------

--- RM ---- Keane ------ Veron/Scholes ---- LM ---

-------------------- STRIKE ----------------------

IMO! :)

This as you all know is my favoured 4:5:1 formation:

------------------- Barthez ----------------------

------------ Rio ------------ O'Shea -------------

-- GNev ------------- Butt ---------- Silvestre --

------------ Keane ----------- Veron -------------

--- Beckham --------------------------- Giggs ----

---------------------- RVN -----------------------

IMO, that team would control Real Madrid without a problem. I really do believe that.
 
United have the player to make the system works.
It works against Deportivo in the QF last season, and we see it this season against that Hungarian club.
Giggs is our Raul, minus the finishing touch of course :)
And there are reason why Helguera was dubbed the Spanish Roy Keane.
In short, the system and the players are good, the only thing that we haven't got is our confidence.
Once we got that back, we'll be alright, no matter what formation we play

cheers!
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

This as you all know is my favoured 4:5:1 formation:

------------------- Barthez ----------------------
**** ****
--******---- Rio ------------ O'Shea ---******----
**** ****
-- GNev ------------- Butt ---------- Silvestre --
* *
---***------ Keane ----------- Veron -----***-----
* *
--- Beckham --------------------------- Giggs ----

---------------------- RVN -----------------------

IMO, that team would control Real Madrid without a problem. I really do believe that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would be seriously worried about what Figo especially could do in the wing back places " * ".
Silvestre would be comfortable with it but i dont think Brown or the Nevilles are naturally attacking enough.
I agree that if we are to play with 1 striker all 4 of our wide men need to push up a lot more. It sounds like a defensive tactic but it should be all out attack with only the central defenders and "Butt" hollding themselves back.
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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>The stadium didn't go cold until Guti scored just before the half. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. Roma could have been up or at least holding to a 1-1 draw by halftime. Going into the second half 1-0 up makes it a lot easier for Real to start playing their free flowing football and you end up seeing the game as "Roma being outclassed".

As usual, the all important opening goal we are badly missing!
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Roma had a couple of chances in the first half, but Real were bossing the match even then.
 
HOw about a 4-3-3 formation, like how barca used to play when they had Figo and Rivaldo.

G.Neville, Ferdinand, Blanc, Silvestre
Beckham, Keane,Scholes
Veron Giggs
RVN
By playing this formation when in attack we hav 2 winger/forwards who can run at defence and shoot from long range, a holding striker, and adequate wing backs who can overlap and put in crosses and spread opposition's defence. The 3 midlfield players are strong and shouldn't loose to any other midfields. And in defence this formation would look like a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 with veron who can drop back into midfield and giggs playing the counter punching role. Veron should be designatd play maker for that is what he is best at, especially when he plays that for Argentina.
 
Man Utd's problem is not formation or scoring or injuries, it's players mind set. They r good but they shouldn't think that, they should just play every game 110%. Man Utd at their best is irrisistable yet that is only when they work together. When Keane plays one touch football instead of holding it and always trying to force the play he is good. Becks always cares about T.V. Veron is wasted when he should be behind the strikers, Butt is always injured. Even if players are injured P.Neville should NEVER get a game, he is shit. All these are reasons why we r doing really badly, buying playes doesn't fix this, for when our best 11 or on the field same problems will arise.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Roma had a couple of chances in the first half, but Real were bossing the match even then.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think we would settle for

1st half: enough command/control on what was going on (although I wouldn't say bossing)

2nd half: they just took the piss out of them
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4-5-1 looks bad with us because we simply don't have eleven dribbling maniacs like Madrid. However if all our lads are on form and are working as a United we makew the system look more solid and invincible than them. Look at the deportivo away match part 2 as a good example. :D
 
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