4-2-2-2 / 4-2-4

Both strikers are unavailable though so partly a needs must. I think we’ll use it at times because it suits Zirkzee but in games we play Hojlund it will be a more recognisable 4-2-3-1. Not a huge structural difference anyway.
 
It's just a 4231 but with a false 9 or a more hold up style CF like Zirkzee compared to a Hojlund style. Ralfs 4-2-2-2 had 2 more advanced guys leading the line.

What we have today is more similar to Ancelotti's system last season probably.
 
I like it. This is probably why we got Zirkzee as well. Bruno will go back to his usual role and Zirkzee will be in the role Bruno's currently playing. Excited about the fullback choices as well. I'm sure the media is going to have a field day with the "4-2-4" or whatever regardless of win / loss but it's minor tactical tweaks and I think this one really suits our side.
 
The spine of our team is really slow, and we don't have the midfield to keep the ball circulating without losing it (Bruno loves a direct ball, Casemiro isn't a retainer and Mainoo at his age still struggles to actually get on the ball), so going compact like this should at least help us a bit defensively.
 
Berbaclass said:
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Any chance you know what the context is with that ETH quote?

Is he saying that we used that last season but due to player unavailability/etc it was ineffective or that there have been tweaks made to it to make it more effective this time around?
 
The main question with the 4-2-4 is that there isn't really an obvious role for Bruno in it. He doesn't strike me as a natural up front or out wide. He will at least be good if we make a lot of turnovers. Maybe we'll revert to 4-2-3-1 in possession? Will be interesting to see.
 
quadrant said:
The main question with the 4-2-4 is that there isn't really an obvious role for Bruno in it. He doesn't strike me as a natural up front or out wide. He will at least be good if we make a lot of turnovers. Maybe we'll revert to 4-2-3-1 in possession? Will be interesting to see.
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That's not permanent. Its still a 4231 when we are on the ball. It's a 442/424/4222 off the ball. Hojlund/Zirkzee will slot in to the 9 and Bruno will shift back to the 10
 
Shared this in the ETH thread few days ago but I'll post it here since it's the formation thread.

Against Fulham we did not play a back 4 in possession.. 3-4-3, 3-6-1, 3-1-6 were most prevalent from 1st phase build up to final 3rd of the pitch.

The high press was in a 4-0-2-4 or 4-0-6. 4222 appears to be the default defensive shape we take when teams beat our initial press and are still building up in the middle 3rd of the pitch. Against Fulham this shape was most prevalent between the 60th - 80th minute after the subs and with both sets of players knackered. In fact 4-2-2-2 is the shape I saw the least during the match because Fulham weren't very good at playing out of our press, relying on hoof ball or quick counter-attacks.
 
Pronewbie said:
Shared this in the ETH thread few days ago but I'll post it here since it's the formation thread.

Against Fulham we did not play a back 4 in possession.. 3-4-3, 3-6-1, 3-1-6 were most prevalent from 1st phase build up to final 3rd of the pitch.

The high press was in a 4-0-2-4 or 4-0-6. 4222 appears to be the default defensive shape we take when teams beat our initial press and are still building up in the middle 3rd of the pitch. Against Fulham this shape was most prevalent between the 60th - 80th minute after the subs and with both sets of players knackered. In fact 4-2-2-2 is the shape I saw the least during the match because Fulham weren't very good at playing out of our press, relying on hoof ball or quick counter-attacks.
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To be fair the only side I can think of in the PL who play out from the back and do so in a 4 is Brighton. Most managers seem to see a 3-1/3-2/2-3 as better for covering the field.

I'd be happy to call our defensive shape a 442, which is again pretty common for coverage. 4-2-2-2 just makes it sound like Rangnick's cock and balls variant, which we aren't playing even a little.
 
didz said:
To be fair the only side I can think of in the PL who play out from the back and do so in a 4 is Brighton. Most managers seem to see a 3-1/3-2/2-3 as better for covering the field.

I'd be happy to call our defensive shape a 442, which is again pretty common for coverage. 4-2-2-2 just makes it sound like Rangnick's cock and balls variant, which we aren't playing even a little.
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The key point was that we didn't actually play a 4-2-3-1, 4-2-2-2, 4-2-4 or any variant of a typical back 4 in possession at any point, which some youtube videos and posters claim. We seem more rigid in only having 3 max at the back, compared to other possession-based sides (like City) who are happy to have a curved 4 at the back to build up when pressed. Could just be because it's Fulham, or more likely the fact that we're more than happy to play a long direct ball and prefer to have an extra man in front.

While nowhere near like Rangnick's mad-man 4-2-2-2 pressure chain, Our defensive shape is more 4-2-2-2 than 4-4-2 especially in the middle third of the pitch. Our wingers prioritise cutting off passing lanes with our CM/DMs sitting deeper and we prioritise closing down the ball carrier, so at the very least not a rigid 4-4-2 with 2 disciplined lines of 4.

We didn't get to see our defensive shape often against Fulham because of good closing down work and the fact that we are still vulnerable to quick transitions. Maybe it's by design. I don't know.

We saw bits of these tactics at the start of last season before the injuries hit, and at the end of the season again. But never put together like this (along with the other new stuff) and with us playing more comfortably as a team.

I'm excited to see whether we can continue improving against Brighton and Liverpool, or will they be able to exploit our system and punish us. Something just feels different this season.
 
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quadrant said:
The main question with the 4-2-4 is that there isn't really an obvious role for Bruno in it. He doesn't strike me as a natural up front or out wide. He will at least be good if we make a lot of turnovers. Maybe we'll revert to 4-2-3-1 in possession? Will be interesting to see.
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I think he’s okay both as the ‘shadow striker’ and out wide. But yes I expect it’d naturally turn into a 4-2-3-1 anyway due to the positions he takes up
 
IrishRedDevil said:
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Statman Dave ready to provide stuff for people to sound more knowledgable as they they are. I.e. a pressing structure isn't the same as a formation switch. Don't know but to me, sounds like people are doing their best to see something and are ready to project things. That being said, our pressing looks definitely more effective than last season. If that is connected to the wingers coming more narrow, a higher line or Mount being in there, I am not sure. Looking at 2nd half against Fulham, there is still also the chance, that the players were simply motivated and intense to begin with. Even though it faded in that 2nd half. Also the squad looked quite different to last season, which will also lead to a match looking different.

Lets give it some time. Pretty sure the systematic changes aren't as profound that one would see them instantly, maybe over a couple of games, there is something to conclude. Definitely good to see us going for modern tactics finally.
 
Is this with 2 AM or wingers? I’ve not seen us with 2 up top so far so not sure how it’s a 4-2-2-2
 
Would people give over about Ralf.

He was only right about the most obvious things, is a bit of a spoofer, and we're playing nothing like his 4222.
 
NZT-One said:
Statman Dave ready to provide stuff for people to sound more knowledgable as they they are. I.e. a pressing structure isn't the same as a formation switch. Don't know but to me, sounds like people are doing their best to see something and are ready to project things. That being said, our pressing looks definitely more effective than last season. If that is connected to the wingers coming more narrow, a higher line or Mount being in there, I am not sure. Looking at 2nd half against Fulham, there is still also the chance, that the players were simply motivated and intense to begin with. Even though it faded in that 2nd half. Also the squad looked quite different to last season, which will also lead to a match looking different.

Lets give it some time. Pretty sure the systematic changes aren't as profound that one would see them instantly, maybe over a couple of games, there is something to conclude. Definitely good to see us going for modern tactics finally.
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One thing that seemed pretty clear to see immediately was the height of the defensive line, which was maybe the biggest issue last season. Hopefully the lack of gap between defence and midfield will continue.
 
Withnail said:
Would people give over about Ralf.

He was only right about the most obvious things, is a bit of a spoofer, and we're playing nothing like his 4222.
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I wish we could all just forget he existed. Unfortunately he created a fanbase for himself by saying things in press conferences between trips to Barbados and Skype calls to Moscow. That was the man's true genius.
 
OsloRed said:
One thing that seemed pretty clear to see immediately was the height of the defensive line, which was maybe the biggest issue last season. Hopefully the lack of gap between defence and midfield will continue.
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Yes I agree. That was visible especially in 1st half. I guess, that would have been the default last season as well, when everybody would have been available. But yeah, lets hope it continues to move in the right direction (and that doesn't even have to be a highline per se - important is the synchronisation within the team to prevent the attackers to charge up front while the defense is dropping back.
 
didz said:
I wish we could all just forget he existed. Unfortunately he created a fanbase for himself by saying things in press conferences between trips to Barbados and Skype calls to Moscow. That was the man's true genius.
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He's living rent free in a few peoples heads - friends and enemies alike.
 
NZT-One said:
Yes I agree. That was visible especially in 1st half. I guess, that would have been the default last season as well, when everybody would have been available. But yeah, lets hope it continues to move in the right direction (and that doesn't even have to be a highline per se - important is the synchronisation within the team to prevent the attackers to charge up front while the defense is dropping back.
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True. I can excuse the drop off in performance in the second half given the stage of the season and that several key players had very little preseason, but hopefully we'll see closer to 90 minutes in the coming games.
 
NZT-One said:
He's living rent free in a few peoples heads - friends and enemies alike.
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I don’t know why folks are getting so upset over someone whose first name is Ralf.
Also, was an entirely different setup, he didn’t play with 2 false 9’s, I mean, one of his strikers was Ronaldo.
His wingers were more like AM’s, in ETH’s case the wingers are just that, wingers.
 
Our team shape changes a lot, it‘s tricky calling it one formation.

We‘ve been playing with one false nine and three midfielders. The false nine and one of the midfielders are playing high much of the time. We have four defenders.

4-2-4 or 4-2-2-2 seem like the best names for this.
 
quadrant said:
The main question with the 4-2-4 is that there isn't really an obvious role for Bruno in it. He doesn't strike me as a natural up front or out wide. He will at least be good if we make a lot of turnovers. Maybe we'll revert to 4-2-3-1 in possession? Will be interesting to see.
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There are no team in the modern day that plays in the same formation in and out of possession

Even in possession (and out as well tbh), the team's shape (for all teams) will differs depending on where the ball is (1st, middle, final 3rd)

We play with 424 high press out of possession (that becomes 4222/442 the deeper our block becomes) and a 244 buildup and 316/325 further up in possession
 
Withnail said:
Would people give over about Ralf.

He was only right about the most obvious things, is a bit of a spoofer, and we're playing nothing like his 4222.
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He's like snake oil salesman and a fortune teller rolled into one.
 
themanguydude said:
There are no team in the modern day that plays in the same formation in and out of possession

Even in possession (and out as well tbh), the team's shape (for all teams) will differs depending on where the ball is (1st, middle, final 3rd)

We play with 424 high press out of possession (that becomes 4222/442 the deeper our block becomes) and a 244 buildup and 316/325 further up in possession
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Thank you. I think we all know the de facto formation changes mid-game. That doesn't mean nominal starting formations tell us nothing. A change in the formation on paper can also indicate a change in approach during the game. My query was more about whether this was the case here, or whether we would continue as before in possession.
 
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