and playing poorly,
last nail in the coffin for the 4411 being the problem i hope.
last nail in the coffin for the 4411 being the problem i hope.
1 Down with a 442.
- Thread starter Murt
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WeasteDevil
Guest
I agree, 4411 has nothing to do with it, never had.
Gazza
Full Member
If we do play 4411 we need a creatvie player in the withdrawn role, not Scholes as he ends up being pushed back in to midfield. Little Ronny or Paulo would be perfect at this time imo.
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Murt, please enlighten as to why you are so anti 4-4-2, and so pro 4-4-1-1.
I'm not denying we may have had some good performances last season with 4-4-1-1 though I think sometimes the performance proved better than the result.
Didn't most of our successes came from 4-4-2?
Please put us out of our misery and tell us which league performances last season convinced you.
I'm not denying we may have had some good performances last season with 4-4-1-1 though I think sometimes the performance proved better than the result.
Didn't most of our successes came from 4-4-2?
Please put us out of our misery and tell us which league performances last season convinced you.
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Murt, please enlighten as to why you are so anti 4-4-2, and so pro 4-4-1-1.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Im not anti 442. I just dont think that the introduction of a 4411 formation is our problem.
Most ppl seem to think that if we played 442 wed be 10 points clear att the top.
I cant tell you what our problems are, but i have my theories over what they ar'nt.
Elfie
Guest
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>and playing poorly,
last nail in the coffin for the 4411 being the problem i hope.</strong><hr></blockquote>
442 may be, but with some major players missing.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
Im not anti 442. I just dont think that the introduction of a 4411 formation is our problem.
Most ppl seem to think that if we played 442 wed be 10 points clear att the top.
I cant tell you what our problems are, but i have my theories over what they ar'nt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
However bad we are with 4-4-2, we're just as bad with 4-4-1-1.
As people have said, it isn't the system, it's the personnel - and our personnel generally perform better with an attacking formation. There always will be exceptions, and there will always be a time when one or the other system is called for.
Most ppl blamb the 4411 for our troubles.
Can you imagine what the rxn would have been had we played with 4411 today with the same performance?
Its not the formation, its the personelle, we have too many world class players performing like average run of the mill premiership players.
Can you imagine what the rxn would have been had we played with 4411 today with the same performance?
Its not the formation, its the personelle, we have too many world class players performing like average run of the mill premiership players.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Most ppl blamb the 4411 for our troubles.
Can you imagine what the rxn would have been had we played with 4411 today with the same performance?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
We did for much of the game by all accounts.
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It would seem that a real problem area today was that we had little/no option to change things around off the bench (esp' up front).... the super sub role would seem 2b as important as any other...change pace, tempo, shape etc & the opposition is well on the back foot until it can re-adjust....by that time the deficit may be turned arouned as so often when Ole was filling that role.....delighted for Diego though! We'll get it sorted sooner than later I hope!
curt
Guest
Come on, we didnt have Ruud, Giggsy, Keano or Butt.
kf
Full Member
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Originally posted by redmad:
<strong>It would seem that a real problem area today was that we had little/no option to change things around off the bench (esp' up front).... the super sub role would seem 2b as important as any other...change pace, tempo, shape etc & the opposition is well on the back foot until it can re-adjust....by that time the deficit may be turned arouned as so often when Ole was filling that role.....delighted for Diego though! We'll get it sorted sooner than later I hope!</strong><hr></blockquote>
real problem today was that we didn't turn up for the first half hour by which time we were one down to a crap goal from a corner. when we upped the tempo from then on it was much better. As well as all the missing players, I reckon both Scholesy and Becks were carrying knocks for most of the game, v worried about Scholesy he could hardly walk at the end. Typical of Diego to get his goal in probably his worse game! Good on the lad! I agree with Murt, it's nothing to do with formation, it was a pretty static 442 today - its the static bit that was the problem...
Ever hopefull
Guest
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Most ppl blamb the 4411 for our troubles.
Can you imagine what the rxn would have been had we played with 4411 today with the same performance?
Its not the formation, its the personelle, we have too many world class players performing like average run of the mill premiership players.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree, we have a team littered with stars who are playing like 11 individuals not a team. Look at the way Leverkusen played last year, ok they had a few stars such as Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio but man for man they shouldn't have been able to touch us but they played as a team. We need to start playing as a team again.
Originally posted by Ever hopefull:
<strong>
Agree, we have a team littered with stars who are playing like 11 individuals not a team. Look at the way Leverkusen played last year, ok they had a few stars such as Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio but man for man they shouldn't have been able to touch us but they played as a team. We need to start playing as a team again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i still can't see how it's the personnel.. we had players like forlan dying to get his first goal.. we had players missing all over the pitch, no defensive midfielder in there - butt and keane were both out... Worse, our maybe best player this season Giggs didn't play either.. Phil had maybe now played in 4 different positions this season?
4-4-2 last night cannot be used to say that 4-4-1-1 isn't the problem.. we can't just swap formation week in and week out and expect results.
the problem isn't with 4-4-1-1 itself. it is with the fact that we're playing with an unfamiliar formation and tactics.. i don't think players who play 10 years with the same formation can play differenly week in and week out and still play well.. if it works out great, if it doesn't then we'll probably have to be satisfied with 1-1 results where we have to come from behind like this more often.
antohan
gets aroused by tagline boobs
You know what? I'M FED UP WITH THIS TACTICS DISCUSSION!
Didn't Eric or Teddy pull back and play in a more withdrawn/"in the hole" role as and when needed?
If we were talking three at the back or 3 defensive midfielders fair enough, lots of issues involved there. But we aren't. It's just the slight detail of the second forward being pulled back in the tactical formation which does not (or at least definitely should not) mean that there's only one guy in the box to score goals.
If there is anything to be worried about is the tactical acumen and movement of our squad. Any team that pretends to be World Class must be able to adapt/adjust throughout the game and make it work.
But nope, we say the poor lads are getting mixed up with switching 4-4-1-1 and 4-4-2 from one game to another. feck that, we are playing some miserable football but we always seem to get around that problem in the last 10-15 minutes of a game irrespective of tactics. Doesn't that tell us something?
Didn't Eric or Teddy pull back and play in a more withdrawn/"in the hole" role as and when needed?
If we were talking three at the back or 3 defensive midfielders fair enough, lots of issues involved there. But we aren't. It's just the slight detail of the second forward being pulled back in the tactical formation which does not (or at least definitely should not) mean that there's only one guy in the box to score goals.
If there is anything to be worried about is the tactical acumen and movement of our squad. Any team that pretends to be World Class must be able to adapt/adjust throughout the game and make it work.
But nope, we say the poor lads are getting mixed up with switching 4-4-1-1 and 4-4-2 from one game to another. feck that, we are playing some miserable football but we always seem to get around that problem in the last 10-15 minutes of a game irrespective of tactics. Doesn't that tell us something?
Originally posted by antohan:
<strong>You know what? I'M FED UP WITH THIS TACTICS DISCUSSION!
Didn't Eric or Teddy pull back and play in a more withdrawn/"in the hole" role as and when needed?
If we were talking three at the back or 3 defensive midfielders fair enough, lots of issues involved there. But we aren't. It's just the slight detail of the second forward being pulled back in the tactical formation which does not (or at least definitely should not) mean that there's only one guy in the box to score goals.
If there is anything to be worried about is the tactical acumen and movement of our squad. Any team that pretends to be World Class must be able to adapt/adjust throughout the game and make it work.
But nope, we say the poor lads are getting mixed up with switching 4-4-1-1 and 4-4-2 from one game to another. feck that, we are playing some miserable football but we always seem to get around that problem in the last 10-15 minutes of a game irrespective of tactics. Doesn't that tell us something?</strong><hr></blockquote>
when i refer to 4-4-1-1 i'm referring to the whole tactics. giggs and becks being pulled inside to playmore center roles.. veron holding the ball, slowing the game down. Our left and right backs play like they're wingers.
we used to play fast and furious. that's changed. it's a calm tactic which no doubt seems to be benefiting us in Europe. So it's good. but in the league we're clearly miserable.
When Teddy and Eric were here, yes we did draw them to play behind the striker, but it was never so obvious - and both our wings becks and giggs were still doing full time wing jobs. plus the game flow was always very fast. Slower games don't suit english teams - especially when we're not perfect at it.
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