Kim Min Jae has proven to be a massive flop.
Bayern squad is the weakest it's been in a long time.
Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Bayern squad is the weakest it's been in a long time.
And yet Bayern’s points total this year could still end up high enough to have won 9 of those 11 titles. The only thing keeping you from title 12 in a row is a team having one of, if not the, greatest seasons in BuLi history.
So yeah, as @spiriticon said - 1st world problem. You sound like a rich guy complaining to a bunch of working class stiffs that your buddy got a nicer Lamborghini than you.
Please start. I'm curious to see what assement you have for their squad.
This is so far away from a "squad in its prime" that I don't even know where to start.
Do you know WHY he has flopped?
I'm simply warning you of the reality of Tuchel. If you 'd rather pretend I'm like a rich guy moaning about lambourgini's, go ahead. However if he does get hired. In 2.5 years let's not catch y'all on here complaining about the same stuff I've just pointed out.
Should probably also be mentioned that even if he wins his final two games, his points total would still have been bettered in every single one of those 9 seasons, by multiple Bayern managers. Many of those managers we’d almost cringe at the idea of signing.
Let’s not make out he’s done anything but fail at Bayern with that recruitment and that squad.
I’ll be sure to curb my displeasure at a league title, a runner up, and a UCL semifinal.
Bayern Munich won the title in those seasons. They aren’t playing themselves.
Assuming your extravagant assumption he'd get you any where close with the current state of United comes to fruition.
The point is, if Kovac can better your points total, it’s probably the team more than the manager?
To sign Kane, who’s been a massive success and with that squad, and finish the season with the lowest points total in a decade, is failure however you paint it.
I’d understand the argument if Tuchel was instead leading Bayern to one of their best league performances in a decade but has gotten unlucky with the form of Leverkusen, but he’s simply done a job any muppet in the past decade could/has matched/beaten.
You said the reality of Tuchel. That is your reality. That’s why you’re coming across as the complaining rich guy.
Well My assemment is based on all his jobs till now. You are just weirdly obsessed with the fact Bayern is his most recent one. Which is your problem. Not mine. I'm on record on this site as never EVER wanting him at Bayern post Nagelsmann and he has done everything I expected him to do and worse. If that makes me "a rich man moaning about scratches on my lambourghini". Let me go and enjoy the scratches being evened out.
He seems to have a massive lack physically. Often gets pushed over to easily and lacks pace. Would have flopped even harder in the Prem most likely.
Fine. You wanted it...
Goal:
Manuel Neuer: Still not the same after his long term injury, needs to be replaced soon
Daniel Peretz: Will not be the quality replacement they need
Sven Ulreich: For many years their solid second choice, but nothing more and Bayern had to rely on him a lot this season
Tom Hülsmann: Youth player. Don't know, don't care
Defence:
Matthijs de Ligt: Very good defender usually. Not absolute best in the world, but definitely Bayern's best when not injured.
Min-jae Kim: Has been a disaster in some games, especially a lack of language/communication skills seems to be a problem which often sees him out of position/not in sync with his team.
Dayot Upamecano: Hugely talented, yet still having the occasional brainfart. Similar defenders (like Rüdiger) matured in a way he apparently just doesn't. Due to that was always a gamble of a signing
Eric Dier: Came in the winter as an additional defender was urgently needed. Letting Hernandez, Pavard and Stanisic leave in the summer was absolutely stupid. Very solid signing, most reliable defender (no brainfarts, no injuries), but also nothing special
Tarek Buchmann: Youth player. Full season injured (only played two matches). Irrelevant
Alphonso Davies: Had an amazing breakout season and showed little development since then under three managers. In that sense Bayern's Rashford
Raphael Guerreiro: Very good addition to the squad, their best "playmaking fullback", but too often injured to be relied on (always was a problem for him, even at Dortmund before, so not a surprise here)
Joshua Kimmich: Very good rightback. Moving him back there was a good move by both Tuchel and Nagelsmann after he proved not being able to control matches in the way he was expected to (which was an issue before Tuchel arrived already).
Nossair Mazraoui: Quite good fullback on both sides. Not exciting, but absolutely useful at every level. Probably more a backup as a first choice however.
Sacha Boey: Panic buy in the winter. Injured. When Stanisic returns from loan he will be redundant
Bouna Sarr: Was Flick's wish, the club granted the wish, was always useless. Not a factor at all.
Midfield:
Aleksandar Pavlovic: Breakthrough of the season. He finally gives Tuchel an option as a holding DM, key in finally breaking up the not any longer well working midfield Kimmich/Goretzka.
Leon Goretzka: Just not the same player after a lot of little niggling injuries. Might return to his best, but this season never was at that level. Still a very versatile player and useful in the squad, even filled in as CB during the injury crisis.
Konrad Laimer: Works his ass off. Good player, good signing
Attack:
Jamal Musiala: Just a brilliant talent, could replace Müller as their decade long central attacking player
Kingsley Coman: Great winger when fit. Too often injured. Which is the case for all his career
Mathys Tel: Extremely talented forward, will probably deploy in a first choice
Bryan Zaragoza: Signed in the winter, just not up for the task so far. Hopefully (for Bayern) he just needs more time to settle in
Leroy Sane: see Coman
Serge Gnabry: see Coman
Thomas Müller: Not as good as he was in previous years, still a very useful player in the squad. But won't be for much longer
Harry Kane: Great striker, great signing
Eric-Maxim Choupo-Moting: Seasoned and reliable backup striker
So what does that leave us with? A world class attack if enough players are fit (which can not be relied upon, as we have seen yesterday where all four attackers needed to be subbed off because none were fully fit/got injured during the match). A midfield which is past it/not good enough/not yet in their prime. A defence that lacks in numbers and reliability. A keeper that's past it.
Bayern's squad has been on a slow but steady decline for almost a decade now, was able to hit a great run in the meantime (sextuple under Flick), but then just kept declining and it finally catches up to them. Which is why there is a total turmoil on board level because they know they fecked up and are rebuilding their board in hope to improving their recruitment.
If it’s the team and not the manager, then I’d like to point out that I’d rate the squad Kovac had into over the one Tuchel has…
Not my first choice - but a lot better than most we have been linked to
Who is your first choice?
I’d prefer it too in fairness, although Tuchel has a cracking squad too.
Kovac did outperform Tuchel in the league and cup mind, getting a double in the bag, and he’s a nothing manager.
I’d honestly imagine even Ole and Ragnick could manage a season with 70+ points & 7 defeats with this current Bayern side. It certainly doesn’t scream “over achiever” does it?
None of his jobs have the air of Jose at Porto, SAF at Aberdeen, Klopp at Dortmund, Alonso at Leverkusen. Everything is just “ok”, then gets gradually worse the longer he stays, and then apparently he falls out with everyone.
Sorry but I just don’t see it, there’s one very impressive thing on his CV for me, but it came within months of him taking over so has too much a Di Matteo feel, doesn’t feel like something he himself built towards and achieved.
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I really don't know where we can realistically turn for a manager who can right this sinking Glazerian ship. I would say Michael Carrick but I would have to rely on those who watch boro closely for guidance on the job he's done there.
Tuchel in, yay!!!
Him joining Chelsea mid-season when we were completely languishing under Lampard and then over the next year and a half getting us to literally every cup final we competed in bar the CL second year where we were undone by a Mendy howler and 2 Kante errors is extremely fecking impressive.
I don't know why I'm trying to convince you anyway; I'd be absolutely devastated if he went to Man United and would do just about anything to have him back at Chelsea.
I wasn’t swayed by Ole completely changing around a languishing squad post Mourinho in fairness, that Chelsea squad was still way too good to languishing so badly. I mean, look at the side who started that CL final, it’s a fecking damn good side.
I’ve mentioned lots here that he’s a top cup manager, but it’s the league where he comes up short time and time again. His 74 points at Chelsea has been matched by Ole and beaten by ETH.
Too many of his league seasons are “meh” at best. His pragmatism usually makes him a good bet in the cups mind, but even that went to shit this season in multiple cups.
You’re someone whose opinion I’m very interested in. Is the general consensus among Chelsea fans that he should’ve been kept on?
I mean, perhaps I'm making excuses but I think it's silly to not note the completely unprecedented circumstances that befell the world / Chelsea during the second half of the season.
Even without that context 74 points, 2 tinpot cup wins, 2 domestic cup finals, and an extremely narrow CL QF exit to the eventual winners is miles ahead of anything Ole or ETH achieved for you.
Also don't know your post history or anything but given that Mason Mount was arguably the second most important player in that CL-winning side apart from Kante, surely that has to be a credit to Tuchel because according to half your fanbase Mount is absolutely shit?
75 points, 2 domestic cup finals, including a league cup win. <- ETH 2022/23
Don’t think it’s hugely different in fairness. Does a CL quarter final really put his season “miles ahead”?
The thing that gets Tuchel so much love from Chelsea fans is a perfect storm:
• Lampard being so horrible.
• The CL win of course, it came after just 4 months and was great proof of his pragmatic cup manager credentials.
• Boehly making such a fecking mess under & post Tuchel.
You’ve sacked many better managers who’ve done much better in the league.
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I am perhaps not the best person to ask about this because I have been a fan of Tuchel since he was at Mainz, and there is an extremely interesting alternate history that I was tangentially involved in where he would have come to England much sooner. Given those caveats, I am of the opinion that sacking Tuchel was the second stupidest thing Chelsea have done in the modern era, trailing only selling KdB for €18m or whatever it was because Mourinho decided KdB was shit based on literally a single half of FA Cup football.
Tuchel was brought to Chelsea to coach the first team exclusively and it is in that environment that he thrived - he was extremely happy to work with the hierarchy of Marina Granovskaia and Petr Cech, and spoke openly many times about how glad he was to focus on coaching. His training methods were consistently unique, engaging, and cutting-edge in terms of sport science. When Clearlake took over, they did everything they could to convince Granovskaia and Cech to stay on but both left - given that chaos, Tuchel was hugely overburdened by the demands of new ownership to help orient them and also to help recruit signings. This is what Tuchel chafed against - and because he wasn't happy the new owners decided to sack him for a manager who couldn't sniff his jockstrap.
I would take Tuchel back in a fecking instant. You never ever have to worry about the team being unprepared - he's a tactical chameleon. His time at Chelsea has been completely misremembered - under him we were up there with the best sides in the world; we just lacked a consistent finisher. I don't think there is a single manager available this summer who is even close to Tuchel in terms of putting a team in position to succeed.
You finished 2nd in your EL group and lost in the QFs to the team that finished 12th in La Liga - and you didn't have to deal with the unprecedented uncertainty of the club being sanctioned.
Personally I think those are comfortably different levels. Putting Ten Hag and Tuchel on the same level is genuinely baffling to me.
Arteta, Alonso, de Rossi, Motta. It’s clear where the future is. Enough of hiring 50+ year olds whose best coaching days are behind them.
Slow down mate, that wasn’t what I was doing.
I simply said their two full first seasons in the Prem weren’t “miles apart” as you claim, a CL quarter final doesn’t mean that much.
I think he is a good manager, very good tactically, has a good record and omes across well ininterviews......BUT
He justdoesnt seem stable, especially pith side and this has been apparent atseveral clubs....also having been a journeymanalready, is he a long terms manager.....he gets a no thanks from me
He justdoesnt seem stable, especially pith side and this has been apparent atseveral clubs....also having been a journeymanalready, is he a long terms manager.....he gets a no thanks from me
Yes, naming one of the best of all time, a complete outlier whose genius is based on how he has adapted over time, definitely makes your point.
We need someone young, driven and ambitious whose best years are ahead of them.
None of those are available / would want to come to United over other very likely destinations.
Fair enough apologies!
I just disagree I suppose. Don't think you can isolate the results without consideration for the broader context. Even beyond the two Mickey Mouse cups we won adding to fixture congestion, the situation he had to deal with was completely unprecedented and people forget that he was thrust into the spotlight of becoming more or less a spokesman for the club, always acquitting himself admirably:
Feel free to disagree if you like - but if Tuchel were hired back this summer at Chelsea he'd be welcomed without reservation.
Agreed, that would be a terrible, very upsetting.They are examples of profiles, making an impact right now in top divisions with no real experience beforehand.
I would much rather see a Carrick brought in and given real backing, rather than have to sit through a Potter or a Southgate.
If we're talking stats, total points is only one of them. Suggest digging into https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats or https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/german-bundesliga-stats-2023-24/. It's hard to paint a picture of a struggling side with those underlying stats. Honestly hard to find fault.
xGD/90 they are the best in Europe, xG as well. PPDA, High turnovers all look best in class.
I appreciate your response!
And yes, it seems as though had the Ukraine War and knock on consequences not happened, he would’ve kept things rolling pretty nicely with Granovskaia and Cech.
Happy to chip in anytime!
And yes fully agreed. Again Tuchel has spoken openly about his connection to our supporters and how much that meant to him - by all accounts he would have been very happy to stay on for an extended period had he not been forced out.
He’s exactly what we need right now imo. We need someone with stature and proven success that can stand up to these overblown egos and tell them as it is. Most of the other ‘candidates’ won’t stand a chance. For instance, if Iraola walked through the door, our lot are more likely to say who the feck are you giving us these orders. We definitely need a big character, that can command respect, to get us through this transition. We simply cannot afford to gamble again on an unproven coach at this level.