I take issue with this. Surely given everything that Ferguson has given to us fans, the logical school of thought should always be that knows what he is doing, rather than he has made a mistake. We owe him that much.
So we didn't sign a central midfielder
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
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Why don't you stop trying to be some Professor Xavier type character and entertain the idea of the manager making a mistake, it seems an awfully lot more logical. He once created a dismal midfield of Oshea, Smith, Kleberson etc, much worse than today's, so why not allow for the manager simply making a mistake now.
Whether its a mistake or not is irrelevant. I'm being totally objective and trying to work out what the hell is going through his head when he decides for the 11th transfer window in a row not to strengthen in midfield when every fan, rival fan , pundit and journalist calls it our weakest position.
MrMojo
New Member
Whether its a mistake or not is irrelevant. I'm being totally objective and trying to work out what the hell is going through his head when he decides for the 11th transfer window in a row not to strengthen in midfield when every fan, rival fan , pundit and journalist calls it our weakest position.
It's not irrelevant because once you accept it's just a mistake you can give up this strange attempt to read another persons mind.
It's not irrelevant because once you accept it's just a mistake you can give up this strange attempt to read another persons mind.
So trying to analyse the situation, assess the options he has and try to then understand the decisions he has made is now "a strange attempt to read someone's mind". Grow up.
"Accept he made a mistake". Right, lets just accept everything that happens and not discuss it from now on shall we? This forum is going to be riveting.
even someone like borja valero could've provided cheap cover IMO.
quality player.
quality player.
MrMojo
New Member
So trying to analyse the situation, assess the options he has and try to then understand the decisions he has made is now "a strange attempt to read someone's mind". Grow up.
"Accept he made a mistake". Right, lets just accept everything that happens and not discuss it from now on shall we? This forum is going to be riveting.
I bet you enjoy a conspiracy theory, I can tell. Why accept the logical explanation when we can spend year after year searching for an alternative theory that you'll never be able to prove or disprove. It's a waste of time.
There's no doubt in my mind if someone like Wilshere, Busquets or Schweinsteiger were to become available, we'd go all out to sign them and considering what we were willing to pay for Lucas and Hazard, the money wouldn't be an issue.
Beneath that level there are players who have shown that they could've contributed to our squad like Cabaye, Dembele and Witsel. It's easy now to say that we should've signed these players, but the problem is, not one of them could've guaranteed that they'd be successful and would probably be on decent wages which makes them hard to sell (ask City). Every season a couple of players have a great year and get linked to bigger clubs, like Charlie Adam, Peter Odemwingie and Obafemi Martins. More often than not, they are footballs equivalent of the one hit wonder and never reach that level again. While our midfield may not be the strongest, at least Sir Alex knows what he'll get from Carrick, Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher, all the while he can develop Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and Academy players.
Perhaps this is why we haven't made the midfield signing everyones wanted in the last few seasons, but going into next season, theres a very real chance we'd actually be short on midfield options and I do think we'll make midfield signings this summer.
Beneath that level there are players who have shown that they could've contributed to our squad like Cabaye, Dembele and Witsel. It's easy now to say that we should've signed these players, but the problem is, not one of them could've guaranteed that they'd be successful and would probably be on decent wages which makes them hard to sell (ask City). Every season a couple of players have a great year and get linked to bigger clubs, like Charlie Adam, Peter Odemwingie and Obafemi Martins. More often than not, they are footballs equivalent of the one hit wonder and never reach that level again. While our midfield may not be the strongest, at least Sir Alex knows what he'll get from Carrick, Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher, all the while he can develop Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and Academy players.
Perhaps this is why we haven't made the midfield signing everyones wanted in the last few seasons, but going into next season, theres a very real chance we'd actually be short on midfield options and I do think we'll make midfield signings this summer.
I bet you enjoy a conspiracy theory, I can tell. Why accept the logical explanation when we can spend year after year searching for an alternative theory that you'll never be able to prove or disprove. It's a waste of time.
What are you wittering in about now?
So Ferguson decided not to strengthen our midfield for no reason whatsoever? Is that what you are trying to suggest?
MrMojo
New Member
What are you wittering in about now?
So Ferguson decided not to strengthen our midfield for no reason whatsoever? Is that what you are trying to suggest?
He didn't strengthen because he thinks it's good enough, simple as that, a mistake. There's no need to look for some other impossible to find answer.
Like I said, he's made much bigger mistakes with the midfield before, this isn't new.
gza the genius
Full Member
He didn't strengthen because he thinks it's good enough, simple as that, a mistake. There's no need to look for some other impossible to find answer.
Like I said, he's made much bigger mistakes with the midfield before, this isn't new.
Pexbo's long post on the other page was basically entirely about why he thought Sir Alex thought the midfield was good enough so I'm not sure what you are arguing about.
Not that he needs me to stick up for him, I just don't understand at all why people see something wrong with what he's been posting.
And yet, people tend to mention the same few names when we talk about potential signings (Cabaye, Wanyama etc), none of whom IMO are good enough to improve the team.
The fact is, there aren't as many quality central midfielders in world football as there was 20 years ago, and almost all of the top midfielders are already spoken for, hence our attempts to develop rather than buy ready-made.
Who of the current youth is likely to develop into a better player than what we could buy in the market? We had one and let him go, I can't see the likes of Tunnicliffe and Petrucci becoming good enough to cut it at this level.
Zen86
Full Member
Who of the current youth is likely to develop into a better player than what we could buy in the market? We had one and let him go, I can't see the likes of Tunnicliffe and Petrucci becoming good enough to cut it at this level.
Who should we buy and for how much?
He didn't strengthen because he thinks it's good enough, simple as that, a mistake. There's no need to look for some other impossible to find answer.
Like I said, he's made much bigger mistakes with the midfield before, this isn't new.
I keep hearing about this mistake but then I see us 12 points clear in the League, still in the FA Cup and in control over 2 legs against the 2nd favourites to win the Champions League and only thwarted by a joke of a red card. Our midfield hasn't been to blame for costing us much at all this season and more than matched City, Madrid and Chelsea. Our weak link has been our wings.
As for an impossible to find answer as to why he didn't strengthen, I think you'll find it's pretty easy to find.
He kept faith with 2 players who have been fantastic servants to this club in Fletcher and Scholes. He gave them two positions in the squad that we could have given to new blood. In Footballing terms, it might have been a bad decision but I think if you step back and look at the overall picture it was a good decision and it's what separates our club from a club like Chelsea who look to turf club legends like Lampard out when they think they might not be quite worth their salt any more.
And no, that isn't me using mystical powers to channel Sir Alex, that's just me analysing the whole situation and making my own judgement on what probably happened.
MrMojo
New Member
I keep hearing about this mistake but then I see us 12 points clear in the League, still in the FA Cup and in control over 2 legs against the 2nd favourites to win the Champions League and only thwarted by a joke of a red card. Our midfield hasn't been to blame for costing us much at all this season and more than matched City, Madrid and Chelsea. Our weak link has been our wings.
As for an impossible to find answer as to why he didn't strengthen, I think you'll find it's pretty easy to find.
He kept faith with 2 players who have been fantastic servants to this club in Fletcher and Scholes. He gave them two positions in the squad that we could have given to new blood. In Footballing terms, it might have been a bad decision but I think if you step back and look at the overall picture it was a good decision and it's what separates our club from a club like Chelsea who look to turf club legends like Lampard out when they think they might not be quite worth their salt any more.
And no, that isn't me using mystical powers to channel Sir Alex, that's just me analysing the whole situation and making my own judgement on what probably happened.
You're in complete denial Pexbo, our midfield gets overwhelmed whenever we come up against quality. I can see there's little point in going on.
Beachryan
More helpful with spreadsheets than Phurry
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The whole Scholes/Fletcher argument is really what the problem is. Ferguson displayed a sentimental side that has been increasing over the years (see Gary Neville having to retire to stop Fergie picking him).
But if we're honest Fletcher was only truly world class (if ever) for about 18 months. Before that he wasn't really good enough in the middle (and often played on the right) and after that (before we knew about his condition) he wasn't very good either.
And Scholes has shown all year that he's done, sadly. Sticking him in the middle from the start hurts us more than it helps us.
So that's at least 2 midfield positions that should open up this summer. Plus with Rio/Vida having age/fitness isues, I expect Jones to finally start to be groomed for his role in defence. Leaving our only central midfield options as Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson. That's pretty bleak when you consider the last two's injury records.
If Carrick broke his toe today, I'm not even convinced we'd manage to hold on to the league. That's how threadbare Ferguson has let the squad become.
But if we're honest Fletcher was only truly world class (if ever) for about 18 months. Before that he wasn't really good enough in the middle (and often played on the right) and after that (before we knew about his condition) he wasn't very good either.
And Scholes has shown all year that he's done, sadly. Sticking him in the middle from the start hurts us more than it helps us.
So that's at least 2 midfield positions that should open up this summer. Plus with Rio/Vida having age/fitness isues, I expect Jones to finally start to be groomed for his role in defence. Leaving our only central midfield options as Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson. That's pretty bleak when you consider the last two's injury records.
If Carrick broke his toe today, I'm not even convinced we'd manage to hold on to the league. That's how threadbare Ferguson has let the squad become.
UnofficialDevil
Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
How are Loucas Moura and Sneijder doing then? did we miss out after all?
You're in complete denial Pexbo, our midfield gets overwhelmed whenever we come up against quality. I can see there's little point in going on.
We bossed it against City at the Emirates and Cleverley made Yaya his bitch again. We were bossing it at Old Trafford against Madrid and were comfortable until the red card.
Choose what you want to see.
Beachryan
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Sneijder is harder to tell, he was at the peak of his game when we went after him. But Moura has looked really good for PSG in the CL, which is pretty amazing given his age and experience.
Beachryan
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We bossed it against City at the Emirates and Cleverley made Yaya his bitch again. We were bossing it at Old Trafford against Madrid and were comfortable until the red card.
Choose what you want to see.
At City we almost let slip a two goal lead and against Madrid we basically played on the counter for 160 minutes of football.
We're Manchester United, we shouldn't be playing like 'plucky underdogs' against any team in the world. And the midfield is the one area of the pitch where we can't compete, and it turns out it's fairly important.
adexkola
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I'd rather we signed some midfielders, but only to cover for/challenge Carrick's first team position, and replace Scholes, Giggs and Fletcher. After our showing at the Bernabau, it can't be that bad as I thought.
We bossed it against City at the Emirates and Cleverley made Yaya his bitch again. We were bossing it at Old Trafford against Madrid and were comfortable until the red card.
Choose what you want to see.
That's mad to say this. We need to get at least one maybe 2 midfielders in no doubt in my opinion.
Amir
Full Member
It's like the old 'Anderson shat on Gerrard' legend from 2007. And it's utter crap again. We didn't boss it against City, we didn't boss it against Real. We had good minutes against City, ended up being pushed back, and let it slip. We had TWO good starts against Chelsea, ended up being pushed back, and let it slip. We had brilliant tactics against Real, though we didn't actually BOSS it, and once we lost an attacker, were pushed back and let it slip.
The rest of our team is so good we can handle it for the most part, even if at times Southampton and Norwich can come to Old Trafford and really boss it. But it's a handycap when we face the big teams. How good would it have been if we had a midfield that matches the ones of our strongest rivals?
For all the talk about Fergie being 'ruthless', he's quite loyal to his players. Why didn't he sign a midfield? I guess it's because he thought Scholes had another year in him, he wanted to give Fletcher every chance, refused to give up on Anderson, at least as a first choice player, and didn't want to block Cleverley. Some of those risks backfired. Personally, I wouldn't have taken them at all, not some anyway.
The rest of our team is so good we can handle it for the most part, even if at times Southampton and Norwich can come to Old Trafford and really boss it. But it's a handycap when we face the big teams. How good would it have been if we had a midfield that matches the ones of our strongest rivals?
For all the talk about Fergie being 'ruthless', he's quite loyal to his players. Why didn't he sign a midfield? I guess it's because he thought Scholes had another year in him, he wanted to give Fletcher every chance, refused to give up on Anderson, at least as a first choice player, and didn't want to block Cleverley. Some of those risks backfired. Personally, I wouldn't have taken them at all, not some anyway.
Adebesi
Full Member
I keep hearing about this mistake but then I see us 12 points clear in the League, still in the FA Cup and in control over 2 legs against the 2nd favourites to win the Champions League and only thwarted by a joke of a red card. Our midfield hasn't been to blame for costing us much at all this season and more than matched City, Madrid and Chelsea. Our weak link has been our wings.
Surely you can use the same logic to argue our wings have been perfectly great. After all, if there was a problem with the wings, how come we're 12 points clear, in the FA Cup and nearly beat Madrid? Especially as our wingers were actually playing. The problem with midfield isn't so much about poor form or personnel, but over reliance on Carrick, which can't be measured until something happens to Carrick.
Or, you can do well even with problems in the side. With a better midfield - and wingers - we'd be doing even better.
kps88
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I take issue with this. Surely given everything that Ferguson has given to us fans, the logical school of thought should always be that knows what he is doing, rather than he has made a mistake. We owe him that much.
I recently finished re-reading SAF's autobiography and, it's fair to say, he'd be the first to admit he's made lots of mistakes.
I'd much rather us use Powell as a squad player rather than spunking money on another midfielder simply for squad cover.
Would be fine with Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and a CM that improves us next season with Jones filling in when necessary.
Would be fine with Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and a CM that improves us next season with Jones filling in when necessary.
buckooo1978
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Let's be honest
We dropped leads at the weekend, at the Etihad, at Chelsea and we were outplayed by 10 man Liverpool at anfield - bale has walked through our midfield and we haven't controlled games as often as we should
Even seeing games like the recent one against Southampton you can see that we can get dominated by lesser opponents - midfield is a major part of that problem and we lack presence and leadership in that area
For large parts of the start of the season we struggled and Van Persie in particular was the difference and main reason we won so many games
The reality is that if Carrick picked up a bad injury we would struggle and city might reel us in
Fletcher is fecked,
Ando can't play 90 mins or at a consistently good level
Cleverley is talented but I feel he is a good squad player like a Nicky Butt rather than a player who is straight on the team sheet
Giggs has been awesome lately but he like scholes needs to be used sparingly
We definately need to reinforce midfield - 12 points is irrelevant - its a glaring weakness in our side and it's an issue which needs addressed
We dropped leads at the weekend, at the Etihad, at Chelsea and we were outplayed by 10 man Liverpool at anfield - bale has walked through our midfield and we haven't controlled games as often as we should
Even seeing games like the recent one against Southampton you can see that we can get dominated by lesser opponents - midfield is a major part of that problem and we lack presence and leadership in that area
For large parts of the start of the season we struggled and Van Persie in particular was the difference and main reason we won so many games
The reality is that if Carrick picked up a bad injury we would struggle and city might reel us in
Fletcher is fecked,
Ando can't play 90 mins or at a consistently good level
Cleverley is talented but I feel he is a good squad player like a Nicky Butt rather than a player who is straight on the team sheet
Giggs has been awesome lately but he like scholes needs to be used sparingly
We definately need to reinforce midfield - 12 points is irrelevant - its a glaring weakness in our side and it's an issue which needs addressed
Ruud10
A Bit Wordy
I'd much rather us use Powell as a squad player rather than spunking money on another midfielder simply for squad cover.
Would be fine with Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and a CM that improves us next season with Jones filling in when necessary.
I'd agree with that ONLY if there were no player of the quality of Javi Martinez available in the market.
I definitely want to see more of Powell next season. The boy can play the game like a man, already.
Sky1981
Fending off the urge
We need a midfield bad.
Carrick's a year older, Scholes is a risky bet for a season long campaign, Anderson is anderson, Cleverly probably can't maintain his standard over a season long (due to his age)
We really need a midfield, i'm sick of seeing us being outplayed in the middle against teams, we need to control, and annihilate, someone to control the tempo and doing it on a weekly basis
Carrick's a year older, Scholes is a risky bet for a season long campaign, Anderson is anderson, Cleverly probably can't maintain his standard over a season long (due to his age)
We really need a midfield, i'm sick of seeing us being outplayed in the middle against teams, we need to control, and annihilate, someone to control the tempo and doing it on a weekly basis
Interval
Level
We need a midfield bad.
Carrick's a year older, Scholes is a risky bet for a season long campaign, Anderson is anderson, Cleverly probably can't maintain his standard over a season long (due to his age)
We really need a midfield, i'm sick of seeing us being outplayed in the middle against teams, we need to control, and annihilate, someone to control the tempo and doing it on a weekly basis
Are you drunk?
ravelston
Full Member
We need a midfield bad.
Carrick's a year older, Scholes is a risky bet for a season long campaign, Anderson is anderson, Cleverly probably can't maintain his standard over a season long (due to his age)
We really need a midfield, i'm sick of seeing us being outplayed in the middle against teams, we need to control, and annihilate, someone to control the tempo and doing it on a weekly basis
"due to his age" - bizarre.
Has it occurred to any of you that SAF has a football club to run - in real life. That means, among many other things, operating within an overall budget and overseeing the club's development of young players. Providing a pathway through to the first team squad is a necessary part of that development. (We've seen what can happen when it isn't there.) Introducing younger players is also a necessary part of balancing the books - going out and buying a "world class" player for every position isn't feasible (or, in my opinion, desirable). SAF has to put together a squad he believes can win recognizing the constraints he works under. To this point the team is having its most successful league season ever, it's still in the cup and was a bad red card away from beating Madrid. Seems to me that he's got the mix right. Whatever mistake he's making seems to be working just fine.
buckooo1978
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After seeing Cleverley struggle against Chelsea you have to wonder about his stamina in the long term (over the whole season)
He gives you everything for 90 mins but before this season he averaged about 25 games a season due to injury
Could Tom be a little burnt out?
Van Persie is also looking a bit as well of late
I'd definately give both a rest at the weekend
He gives you everything for 90 mins but before this season he averaged about 25 games a season due to injury
Could Tom be a little burnt out?
Van Persie is also looking a bit as well of late
I'd definately give both a rest at the weekend
ninety
Full Member
After seeing Cleverley struggle against Chelsea you have to wonder about his stamina in the long term (over the whole season)
He gives you everything for 90 mins but before this season he averaged about 25 games a season due to injury
Could Tom be a little burnt out?
Van Persie is also looking a bit as well of late
I'd definately give both a rest at the weekend
I wouldn't be surprised if Cleverley was burnt out. This is his first season with us where he's been fit all season and I think its starting to show perhaps. Being left out on the weekend against Reading is probably just what the doctor ordered and hopefully he'll be fresh for the run in.
As for Van Persie, he's started 30 matches (25 in the league and 5 in the CL) its not a great surprise he's looking a bit jaded. I'd be perfectly happy with Hernandez starting in his place alongside Rooney. That's what the squad is for. I'm hoping RVP gets back to scoring though cause I really don't want to see Suarez finish up top scorer.
Dirty Schwein
Has a 'Best of Britney Spears' album
I wouldn't be surprised if Cleverley was burnt out. This is his first season with us where he's been fit all season and I think its starting to show perhaps. Being left out on the weekend against Reading is probably just what the doctor ordered and hopefully he'll be fresh for the run in.
As for Van Persie, he's started 30 matches (25 in the league and 5 in the CL) its not a great surprise he's looking a bit jaded. I'd be perfectly happy with Hernandez starting in his place alongside Rooney. That's what the squad is for. I'm hoping RVP gets back to scoring though cause I really don't want to see Suarez finish up top scorer.
Its quite likely that RVP could start vs. Reading because he needs a goal or two to give us and himself a lift and this is very possible against a piss poor team like Reading.
Massive Spanner
The Football Wrench
Rather than being an obnoxious dick, why don't you try and take the stance yourself and try and work out why he hasn't signed a midfielder yourself because the simple fact is that he hasn't and there must be a reason for it. That's all I am trying to do.
Care to explain why he hasn't rather than being a prick when I try to work it out?
As I have said, I'd loved to have seen us tell Fletcher and Scholes to retire and sign Modric and Martinez in the summer but we didn't.
Do you really think Ozil would have been right for us as a Central midfielder? Dembele will probably end up in the list of names I put above.
Hang on now, you are the one who originally posted a comment just consisting of a load of smiley's and a sarky comment after I tried to put across a reasoned debate with you. If you can't handle responses like that back then don't make those comments in the first place.
I've already given reasons why, how many times do you need me to say them? He hasn't found the right one, he has an awful record buying them so he'd prefer to get the most out of what he has and spend his money on areas he has more success in (forwards, wingers, defenders), etc etc. I think it's far too simplistic to say "we're 12 points clear and have done well so obviously he thinks it's not an issue", especially as he clearly stated it was a problem area a few months ago.
I named Ozil because you named Sneijder, simple, and the Dembele comment is odd given his performances so far.
manusteve
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I'd much rather us use Powell as a squad player rather than spunking money on another midfielder simply for squad cover.
Would be fine with Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Powell and a CM that improves us next season with Jones filling in when necessary.
Yeah, I don't want to see "spunking money...for squad cover". But I do want to see money spent on a player that will be first choice, like Modric.
I think a Carrick-Modric combo would be brilliant.
Any risk of settling in is avoided with Modric, too.
The one potential jewel is Nick Powell, he's a very very good footballer and it's whether he can be converted to be a central midfielder permanently (I think so).
If we get Modric I'd be happy with the backup.
I really don't think that Cleverley can hack it in centre-mid against quality opposition. Even if some are citing his performance against City at Eastlands as proof that he can control midfield, I would say that from memory Yaya Toure and Gareth Barry had very poor games.
londonredmaniac
I suffer delusions of grandeur
Personally i'd be very happy to see a real ball winner and Modric added to replace Scholes retiring and the sale of Anderson.
would fergie ever buy a player who's deemed not good enough by madrid? he didn't do it with sneijder or robben when they were sold cut price.
Yeah, doubtful. We don't generally take cast offs.
I'd still prefer Song to Modric if we're going to take one of the midfielders that's gone to Spain and not quite worked out - just think he's closer to the type of player we need.
I'd still prefer Song to Modric if we're going to take one of the midfielders that's gone to Spain and not quite worked out - just think he's closer to the type of player we need.
Goooose
New Member
I think the reaon for him not buying Sneijder or Robben is that they weren't really the players we needed at the time. Is Modric the answer? I don't really think so, I still think we need that box-to-box midfielder.
Adebesi
Full Member
We sign Modric, we still have a problem when Carrick is out.
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