Same as it ever was, we paid Leeds United £30m for Rio when the club was on it's knees financially, they were having a fire-sale, Lennon went for £1m, if we'd held our nerve we could have got Ferdinand for less than the £18m Leeds paid for him 2 years earlier. But no we gave in and paid 'em what they wanted.
Why do we seem to get fleeced so often?
- Thread starter Solius
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Same as it ever was, we paid Leeds United £30m for Rio when the club was on it's knees financially, they were having a fire-sale, Lennon went for £1m, if we'd held our nerve we could have got Ferdinand for less than the £18m Leeds paid for him 2 years earlier. But no we gave in and paid 'em what they wanted.
It seems to me the real frustration is over acquisitions that were worked out poorly before Ole. Ole’s acquisitions have worked out very well even light of the fees we paid for them. But there’s not much we can do now about the 600m+ or whatever we shoveled into furnace before Ole.
My frustration right now is over Sancho. Dortmund are asking a reasonable fee IMHO in light of what this player can do right now and for many years to come. Even it meant we do no other business this summer, Sancho is the player we need. Do any of us really trust that any, let alone all three, of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood can perform at a consistently high level throughout next season? Not me.
My frustration right now is over Sancho. Dortmund are asking a reasonable fee IMHO in light of what this player can do right now and for many years to come. Even it meant we do no other business this summer, Sancho is the player we need. Do any of us really trust that any, let alone all three, of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood can perform at a consistently high level throughout next season? Not me.
This post should be a pinned permanently in the transfer thread.
The “watch this space” and “we can do things other clubs dream of” etc. interview was MUTV wasn’t a follow-up on anything. He was running his mouth and it’s funny that he hasn’t done any such interviews since.
Seeing Schweinsteiger in United kit will run shivers down the spine of opposition - Woodward
Weve really lost any credibility and respect we had thanks to these guys. Recently Raiola was publicly slagging the club, openly saying he would steer players away for their career, that Ole needs to be careful as he is close to being sacked. Now he is about to take another huge chomp of money out of us for a new Pogba deal. We are such an easy target to get rinsed by
Yes exactly. I was just going to give Torres as an example of how you can get cheap deals depending on the circumstances and context of the particular. Not that I think we should have signed that player but it's about identifying these situations (club needing to sell, contracy running out, release clause) and acting swiftly on it. The whole it's us so we have to pay big ignores the lack of imagination on our part.
Tbf, I consider ‘fleeced’ with hindsight, so your definition is likely more accurate. From mine though, due to him becoming possibly the greatest CB in our club’s history, I consider it a bargain and definitely not ‘fleeced’.
It also compounded by our managerial mediocrity which has led to the players not living up to their valuations let alone what we paid for them.
The problem is that the people in positions to make deals are not football people and don't actually know anyone or have any friends in the industry. It happens all the time in any sales business if you don't have a personal relationship with people they are not gonna care how far they screw you.
Think about it. If you were selling to united Ed is the kind of guy you would actually want to screw over.
Think about it. If you were selling to united Ed is the kind of guy you would actually want to screw over.
We just shop for more established quality, on paper at least. The only other clubs that shop from the same market are City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona and PSG, maybe Juventus occasionally with De Ligt and Ronaldo recently. Those clubs also usually end up playing a lot of money, just look at the Dembele, Coutinho or Havertz examples. When we don't buy players whose value is very high and who interest other top clubs (Maguire, Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku, ...) and instead go for the likes of Lindelöf or Matic or even Fernandes, we don't usually end up over paying.
Yeah it's nice and that, but i doubt anyone believes we'd be getting Doc for 12m
Another issue is we're usually too noble to ask players to kick off to join us.
I reckon our targets could have helped shave a couple millions off the fee if they showed some sort of protest, but they never seem that bothered.
I reckon our targets could have helped shave a couple millions off the fee if they showed some sort of protest, but they never seem that bothered.
This.
He's saying that his actions are have more impact to the shareholders than Bruno, Pogba, etc which as you say may be true, but not to the fans who have followed the club for years.
When you are on forbes every year tied with having a non-football mind negotiating transfers, things can get real stupid real fast. However, when you are in dire need of help, and the whole world knows it, it's hard to negotiate. Leicester knew we needed a defender bad so they played hardball knowing eventually we would cave either in the summer or the winter. Sporting knew we needed creative help due to us having subpar options. When you are in a negotiating position of power, it is a lot easier.
Because we don't know when to walk away and get infatuated with said target. And when we do walk away we still end up paying a ridiculous price for said alternative.
The way things are going, our saving grace will be the work done at academy level.
The way things are going, our saving grace will be the work done at academy level.
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Leicester demand £60m for Maguire. We say no. We end up paying £80m a year later...
Leicester demand £80m for Chillwell. Chelsea say no. They end up paying £50m within a few weeks.
This is just not United tax. If it was, Madrid, Bayern and Juventus would all get fleeced all the time too.
Leicester demand £80m for Chillwell. Chelsea say no. They end up paying £50m within a few weeks.
This is just not United tax. If it was, Madrid, Bayern and Juventus would all get fleeced all the time too.
This
Ed obviously has made many good decisions but not many wanna be honest enough to admit it
Ed has too tbh but not many wanna admit that
The thing that annoys me the most us usually when we get fleeced it is over a player that no other club is even in for and we still cannot get a decent deal
Most of our signings turn out to be flops that’s why it looks like we are getting fleeced. Apart from English players who obviously have tax, I think we paid decent fees for pretty much everyone apart Fred. If there is an area where we are getting fleeced it’s wages which are mind blowing. We reward mediocrity because our board think like quite a few of our fans do in blindly believing that some players will turn out to be good in X years or are “good squad options”.
The strategy should be to dictate the market rather than be dictated by it. We could've easily made top 4 if we had kept Smalling and added another two quality attackers in addition to Fernandes, instead of signing Maguire and AWB. Dan James was also far from being highly regarded as a footballer like a earlier poster mentioned. He cost about the same as Lautaro Martinez who is exponentially superior ability wise.
The market strategy is flawed and in the pursuit of signing the correct player we have dithered and panicked which inturn has seen us pay up and cave into the demands of the selling club which has now set a precedent for other clubs. We have been poor at exploiting the market especially the European one.
The market strategy is flawed and in the pursuit of signing the correct player we have dithered and panicked which inturn has seen us pay up and cave into the demands of the selling club which has now set a precedent for other clubs. We have been poor at exploiting the market especially the European one.
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Perfect post.
100% right
Exactly this. The amount of people who think that just because Ed si clubs ask us for more is so high, which makes this situation bizarre.
We are shit at targeting the right players and have a poor scouting network (or don’t use it). It has nothing to do with Ed and Judge’s ability at negotiating. They are the same people who also negotiated big deals from adidas and co.
There was a limited-time free article from The Athletic that actually outlined how the club conducts its business under the Glazers and how it conducted them previously. In short, the reason progress takes so long is because every potential transaction goes to Joel Glazer in his office in Washington, D.C. He analyses them with great detail before providing his approval; once he provides his approval, that's when things start to move forward.
If we didn't have to deal with someone so meticulous based across the Atlantic Ocean, our deals would probably be quicker.
This has been mentioned by a number of Journalists in the last 2 years and is the main reason we aren't seen to be decisive in the market.
Even if Ed's comments are overstated, the United tax clearly exists irrespective of contract length or profile of player.
Compare the amounts we sign similar players to our rivals.
Fred £53m, vs Fabinho £43m
Martial £56m vs Sane £40m
Dalot £19m vs Ricardo Pereira £22m
Di Maria £60m vs Sanchez £35m
Maguire £80m vs Van Dijk £75m
Its clear to see we've paid above market rate. In almost all of these we've signed an inferior player but ended up paying more. I mean we even paid £30m for Bailly who'd barely played a full season of football and was hardly the most coveted player around.
We're making an effort to get rid of the overpaying tag we've found ourselves with due to past spending its going to be difficult to do that. Paying £80m for Maguire is essentially telling the football world we are mugs.
You're looking at last year in isolation, but Ed's been in charge since 2013. The record is there for all to see - we've dithered in the market, been reactive and spent a shit-ton for mediocre results. Since you've mentioned Chelsea as an example of a club with an owner that funnels money into the club, we've actually spent the same as Chelsea and recouped a LOT less. And of course they won 2 PL titles while we've struggled to qualify for the CL.
https://www.transfermarkt.us/premie...&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0
This is all expenditures and income for players from 12/13 until 20/21, all age groups, all nationalities, all positions etc.
What I find interesting is that he actually gave the okay on a bunch of expensive signings for us over the past few years. He's clearly okay with big money being spent when it has the potential to improve the team.
That, too, comes from having Woodward/Judge and company and the desperation/fear and compensating hubris they bring to the table. But yes, we're overpaying by about 80m/year IMO. That's another signing or two per year.
(To be fair, one could sort of make the argument that wages have gone up in line with inflation. But that argument quickly runs into 'who's deciding the wage brackets then'.)
This is one of the things that gets sort of lost whenever anyone posts that Ed/Judge/Glazers aren't 'footballing people'.
Likeability and respect are maybe just perhaps a teeny little bit important in any field. Anyone who's ever used the 'b-b -b - but Woody's a financial genius' line doesn't understand that to everyone in 'the footballing world' he's a douche with a 'kick me' sign on his back. And even if you don't think so personally, the majority of your network does, so you have to tread carefully.
All true of course, (and mentioned ten-thousand times on the caf) but this is a "secondary" effect of not having the people who can maneuver into that "negotiating position of power".
Caf needs to start emphasizing the underlined part and not the secondary effect.
Pretty crazy.
I'd bet that at least a hundred caftards could come up with four players for 80m total or under that would improve the squad. Heck there's people out there who could do four such players for zero transfer fees. And then we need a reality show where we see if either Woodward or Judge have ever heard of any of those players and how much salary they'd offer them.
good post as well
I don't know Fergie, David Gill or Ed Woodward other than what we all see onTV and in the media. But I feel like, and there have been reports to back this up, but Woodward is quite disliked by other clubs. He comes across quite stuck up and basically like a banker who fell into the job of running a sports team.
Compare that to Fergie who was a real working class man and highly likeable, and Gill who was pretty down to earth, and you get a feel for who you are more inclined to deal with.
Just my feeling. Let's not forget either that Woodward had to call in Fergie and Gill to sign Mata from Chelsea. Woodward would get rinsed now signing that profile of a player from a rival.
Compare that to Fergie who was a real working class man and highly likeable, and Gill who was pretty down to earth, and you get a feel for who you are more inclined to deal with.
Just my feeling. Let's not forget either that Woodward had to call in Fergie and Gill to sign Mata from Chelsea. Woodward would get rinsed now signing that profile of a player from a rival.
They are quite clearly respected by football people - read the post properly.
He's definitely prepared to spend a significant sum no doubt. But what surprises me is why heads haven't rolled after the huge funds were largely wasted by his employees. And that too for several years post Fergie and it's something that I can't get my head around.
Yeah, you'd think that heads will roll, but I guess they go after the manager's heads first instead of others. Still, with the number of managers we've gone through over the years, you'd think that Joel would probably target some people above the manager.
Woodward has his and the family's trust, so he's out of the picture. Matt Judge is strongly trusted by Woodward, so he might not be that easy to let go of either.
It's not a "United tax" per se, it's lack of nous in the market.
- Fabinho was begging for Man Utd to come in 2 summers ago and was practically posing with a United shirt in Brazilian media, we went for Fred at 1.5x the price instead.
(and what makes it worse is that the player could slot in as a RB when needed so we wouldn't have to spend 50m quid on AWB). Not buying Fabinho was a crime. - Martial was a panic buy in the last week of the transfer, Sane' wanted to go home to Deutschland and had one year left in his contract. Plus he missed an entire season through injury, so for all we know he could not be the same player again.
- Dalot vs Pereira is not that significant difference - we got the worse player, but that's about it
- Di Maria again - panic buy, dealing with savvy operators like Madrid who wanted to get rid we should have gotten him for half the price, (e.g. Inter Milan got a deal on Sneijder and Bayern on Robben when they were considered surplus to requirements at Bernabeu), but instead got fleeced. To make things worse ADM only wanted to go to PSG who couldn't afford him due to FFP. So instead of exploiting the situation we get fleeced by Madrid AND PSG a year later. ADM was sold at a loss in a seller's market.
- Maguire is also a fecking crime. Could have had him for 60m the year before and Ed said no. Which is fine if Ed/the Club spent the entire year scouring the earth to find an alternative. Not only they didn't/couldn't do that, they went back and spend 80 fecking million on Maguire. Who's at best a 50m player.