He was “temporary” and had nothing to lose
Until that contract.
Until that contract.
Why did Ole abandon his vision?
- Thread starter Rajma
- Start date
We seemed to press much higher and more aggressively yesterday in the second half, and it resulted in a much better performance.
If Ole really does want to play Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood, Pogba and Fernandes, they really are going to have to work their socks off and press high, otherwise it's an impossible job for the one remaining midfielder and the back four
If Ole really does want to play Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood, Pogba and Fernandes, they really are going to have to work their socks off and press high, otherwise it's an impossible job for the one remaining midfielder and the back four
that tends to be when we concede a goal, we suddenly play at full pelt
The best pressing teams tend to also keep the ball really well. If you have 65% possession then you can press hard when you lose it.
If you are like us and play a really direct high risk high reward style then it will result in closer to 50:50 possession and you can’t press for half the game that intently.
If you are like us and play a really direct high risk high reward style then it will result in closer to 50:50 possession and you can’t press for half the game that intently.
PEDs. Couldn't get hold of the really good ones
Wrong again. I have been talking about
the overall pressing tactics as a whole and the final objective of the different kinds.
Not addressing the inner specifics. You are the one going back and fourth between inner specifics and repeatedly confusing yourself about what I'm stating.
You don't yet understand why I pointed this out. I was differentiating between how a Pep uses it and how a Klopp does.
Again. You still haven't understood what I'm describing. The way a Klopp employs the gegen press as a tactic is his side pretends to give possesion away in specific areas so that the opponent can launch an attack into a spefic channel, drawing themselves out of good defensive position, where a planned ambush awaits. It's very different from the reason a Pep employs it. Its absolutely different from what a Mourinho does.
Pep uses it maximize the impact of his goal of ball dominance. A Mourinho uses it for his transition football. Klopp uses it as his chief tactic for chance creation.
Yes this is the most likely scenario. Perhaps hes not doing enough in training as well, to start or come on unless we are desperate in Ole's eyes. Who knows?
But when they were fit wouldnt he have swapped back if your theory is correct?
He largely did. See also the Kwesty articles on the previous page. But then it has evolved in a lot of ways since then.
Why? We've played successfully for a long time without doing that. All of last season, basically.
I agree that's a key observation from yesterday's game. Someone's got to be on their midfielders when they win the ball right outside their own box, or get a rebound at their feet. Yesterday, we weren't.
I thought the Villarreal players looked fitter than ours last night. Either that or there were more of them.
Don't know about that, but we did seem to lose a puzzlingly high proportion of 1-on-1 battles, offensive as well as defensive.
We didn't very often play Pogba and Bruno together with just one CM behind them last season
Let's not beat around the bush here. You tell me what the difference is between a counter press (gegenpressing) and utilising a conventional press. You're jumping all over the place right now.
Once you've explained that it'll be easy to use your previous posts to point out your contradictions.
Ah, no, I see your point more precisely then. But still not so sure the only successful way to do that is with a high press.
Aye, that's one thing that always puzzles me, how can bloggers and journalists write about Barca's style in such detail but professional coaches can't or won't do that for their players?
I agree, Barca had really a very simple and efficient system, forming triangles and breaking up triangles and like you said their guys weren't mega athletes, just well organised and efficient.
Do players really carry that much weight now that they can get away with not carrying out the instructions?
I just find it hard to believe that when you're getting professional players earning these amounts, with this much experience, I think they really ought to be able to fit into any kind of system provided they're getting constant feedback from the coach.
It's not just us, all the outfield players in the PL could be included. And what's 200 out of the total number of people in England who play football? These guys are the top of the tree.
Agree and this is overlooked by many when they talk about pressing.
You either look after the ball or you sit deep and compact. They are the only ways you can then win it back quickly when out of possession.
We don't do either and from there it's really difficult to go hunting for the ball in packs.
It's not over looked at all, not by me at least. The first objective for a coach to dominate the ball where they hit ahigh percentage of possession is to create conditions for the team to do that. Guardiola, Klopp, Ten Hag, Nagelsmann, Flick do that by playing a high line. And once you've got things functioning whilst maintaining a high line, applying pressure high up the pitch is easier to coach.
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Yeah agree with you. Although before creating conditions you firstly need players that can pass and move under pressure.
But possession is overlooked when talking about winning the ball back. Just take a look at all the discussion around it here. It's mostly put down to players being unable, not fit enough, Ole not coaching pressing etc.
We don't play offensive possession football and we don't have an organised press so this one kind of true. Fitness seems to have become the caf's go to reason for underperformance, we have one of the deepest and best squad's in the league, we actually were fine with injuries last year overall, I don't think it's more of an issue for us than it is for any other club.
I’m genuinely asking and not hating but what was his vision ? We used to counter attack and he was getting results so I overlooked our actual game plan but I never really seen a set style
You've made it rather clear you do not know the blatant differences between how Klopp employs pressing as a tactic and how Pep Guaridola does. Yet you keep pretending to be the one in the know. So what would be the actual point? If a started getting into leeway-oriented counterpressing as opposed to passing lane-oriented counterpressing or ball-oriented counter pressing you wouldn't know what I meant. Just like what I was saying about Pep and Klopp's use of pressing has already flown over your head
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I agree about the discussion in here and have touched upon the same thing in other threads.
The personnel we're using, especially in midfield aren't conducive to keeping the ball. It seems like Ole is trying to create a team which is gonna transition play quickly but there's several players who aren't of the requisite standard when it comes to ability on the ball. We're also poor when it comes to defensive transitions where the opposition gets through to our back line very quickly without much resistance at times when we play with more risk. There's a number of the things wrong IMO and it wouldn't surprising me one bit if we go back to playing in a low to midblock when Rashford returns and press the opponent with McFred when they get into our half.
He is hector cuper in disguise
You're deflecting here and dug a hole for yourself. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it.
There's a clear difference between counter pressing and conventional pressing. Counter pressing is initiated just after the ball is lost and I've explained the 6 second rule to you already where Guardiola's Barca would try and retrieve the ball/or quell the danger within 6 seconds of losing it after having multiple players deep into opposition territory playing a extremely high line with CBs who were vulnerable against pace.
The conventional form of pressing is when you apply coordinated pressure in a set defensive structure whether that be low block, mid block or even in a high line. The difference between conventional pressing and counter pressing is very clear and a distinction needs to be made.
The difference between Klopp and Guardiola's counter pressing is very simple. Klopp's goal is to transition play quickly after retreiving the ball whilst Guardiola's Barca carried on building play via possession after winning the ball back. Those are the differences in a approach that is very similar regards to winning the ball.
Counter pressing/conventional pressing isn't new either and can be dated back to England in the 1960s. Rinus Michels popularised it with the Dutch later and combined it with his total football approach in the 70s. The great Italian tactician, Arrigo Sacchi also integrated the method into his way of thinking in the 1980s, where it was used as a method to play the game exclusively in the opposition's half by playing a ultra high defensive line against teams who were ultra defensive in a low block.
You really do know how to flatter yourself.
I'm not bothering answering your irrelevant question for you still have not a clue about what I have been talking about. Its that simple.So what? At no point have I referred to conventional pressing as opposed to geggen pressing. Not once. Instead I referred to how Klopp himself has described his geggen pressing tactics as opposed to how Pep employs his pressing tactics. That is the ONLY reason I labeled Klopps style 'gegen pressing' without giving Pep's version of counter pressing a name (its real name is Juego De Posición ) is to make it easier to differentiate between the two in lay mans terms. The same reason why I said earlier when talking of their differing use of pressing tactics, I was focusing on their end of objectives. This is why I insist you understood jack shit about what I'm talking about but seem to think you are the fountain of knowledge on the issue. Asking me truly irrelevant questions repeatedly simply because of your own inability to understand
How the hell is this difference from what I stated much earlier?
I will repeat. In more elaborate fashion the last time
Guardiola’s goal with his counterpress is to prevent counters, to prevent a deformation of his attacking shape and to being able to secure the ball.
Guardiola, sees offensive transition as a mean to transition into the positional structure he wants for organized possession and position play with the ball. (a.k.a ball dominance)
For Klopp For him, counterpressing is the best playmaker and creates the best chances and shpts to score. The logic is clear: When the opposition tries to counter, they surrender their offensive structure whereas your team is still in it’s offensive structure. If you are able to win the ball at this moment, you’ll find gaps in the oppositional shape to attack them with your attacking players already in the proper positions and orientations. (a.ka. is pressing tactic is his chance maker in chief). Its even more effective as the opponents possession increases.
NONE of this above is comparing conventional pressing with counter pressing
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Have you not mixed upYou really do know know to flatter yourself.
So what? At no point have I referred to conventional pressing as opposed to geggen pressing.. Not once. Instead referred to how Klopp himself has described his geggen pressing tactics and how Pep employs his pressing tactics. That is the ONLY reason I labeled Klopps style 'gegen pressing' without giving Pep's version of counter pressing a name, to make it earlier to differentiate between the two in lay mans terms. The same reason why I said earlier when talking of their differing use of pressing tactics, I was focusing on their end of objectives. This is why I insist you understood jack shit about what I'm talking about but seem to think you are the fountain of knowledge on the issue. Asking me truly irrelevant questions repeatedly simply because of your own inability to understand
How the hell is this difference from what I stated much earlier?
I will repeat. In more elaborate fashion the last time
Guardiola’s goal with his counterpress is to prevent counters, to prevent a deformation of his attacking shape and to being able to secure the ball.
Guardiola, sees offensive transition as a mean to transition into the positional structure he wants for organized possession and position play with the ball. (a.k.a ball dominance)
For Klopp For him, counterpressing is the best playmaker and creates the best chances and shpts to score. The logic is clear: When the opposition tries to counter, they surrender their offensive structure whereas your team is still in it’s offensive structure. If you are able to win the ball at this moment, you’ll find gaps in the oppositional shape to attack them with your attacking players already in the proper positions and orientations. (a.ka. is pressing tactic is his chance maker in chief). Its even more effective as the opponents possession increases.
NONE of this above is comparing conventional pressing with counter pressing
I'm gonna quote this post of yours from earlier where you're implying that gegen pressing requires a alot of of effort? Am I correct?
Gegen pressing basically means counter pressing in German which I've told you earlier. And both Klopp and Guardiola utilise the counter press but it's not the method itself that's taxing on the players in Klopp's team, but how he approaches the game which you fail to understand. Klopp (especially at Dortmund) implemented a high tempo, high intense, fast transition play style which required players to adapt their game to a very high energy play style. And it's that play style that's energy sapping which makes the counter press high intense which you should try and understand IMO and not point to the counter press itself as being something that requires high energy. Sacchi's teams in the past utilised the gegen press (counter press) and it's how you utilise it with your chosen play style which determines how much energy is expended. Klopp chose a specific method but that doesn't mean the gegen press itself requires high intensity at all times.
And I'm gonna repeat it again, gegen pressing means counter pressing in English and it's a method used by different coaches past and present.
Sorry, but to us ordinary mortals, it seems a little hard to understand just what you two are actually disagreeing about that warrants all this vitriol from both sides. 
You both seem to know what you're talking about, generally.
You both seem to know what you're talking about, generally.
There's no vitriol from my side, and as far I know I haven't used any profanity towards anyone in this thread.Sorry, but to us ordinary mortals, it seems a little hard to understand just what you two are actually disagreeing about that warrants all this vitriol from both sides.
You both seem to know what you're talking about, generally.
The poster in question has made quite a few questionable statements about a term that means 'counter pressing' in English. He's also said that Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets were short players which is also incorrect especially if one has watched Busquets play. So I was just a little confused on what the poster was alluding to when it's clear there's discrepancies in his posts which I thought I'll discuss.
The idea of high press is mighty fine,
but just too much stress when they cut thourgh the line. So we sitback and beat City and what not, took a titty kitty four 0 on Spurs and was red hot. Then sold Dan James and could hardly win a match, Ronaldo must be some catch. Oh yezzz. It must be the high pressure, high pressure, high tide, no tie, finalize and magnify all the fecking stereotypes. Varane, super van, van de Beek, Beek your bacon and sugar tops, call the local cops and burn into Woodys and break the holy ground. Yes high preassure indeed. Oh God what a minimal criminal, cut the grass smoke the grass, thirtyseven pens straight up the ass and then out. Keep them trophy boys on Sky, Oh my, should have, could have, would have. Grind it out, dig deep, deep fake, fake nine, fat Romelu, fraud Sanchez and first man out the door Fellaini. Pass it forward, Van Gaal, Van Crazy, Van Sideways and man fall asleep. Stack it up, up the field, all the players, no worrys son, balance out the window. Expected goals. Expected shipping. Expected delivery. No service. No Rice. No food. Now Rashford is injured. 28 months Jones, Sunnys knee and Rooneys moon, all been fixed, but Marcus half lit since he smashed his back againt the toon. Mou depressed behind the wheel, it was a big fecking deal. Crashed us all out on the M62, at least we all paid for a good view. Broken bones, broken club, we all lost, like really what the feck. Rebuild, bodybuild, leaky roof, takes time to heal. Oh. It is really the high preassure. Surely it must be the pressure. If we could only be the pressure
but just too much stress when they cut thourgh the line. So we sitback and beat City and what not, took a titty kitty four 0 on Spurs and was red hot. Then sold Dan James and could hardly win a match, Ronaldo must be some catch. Oh yezzz. It must be the high pressure, high pressure, high tide, no tie, finalize and magnify all the fecking stereotypes. Varane, super van, van de Beek, Beek your bacon and sugar tops, call the local cops and burn into Woodys and break the holy ground. Yes high preassure indeed. Oh God what a minimal criminal, cut the grass smoke the grass, thirtyseven pens straight up the ass and then out. Keep them trophy boys on Sky, Oh my, should have, could have, would have. Grind it out, dig deep, deep fake, fake nine, fat Romelu, fraud Sanchez and first man out the door Fellaini. Pass it forward, Van Gaal, Van Crazy, Van Sideways and man fall asleep. Stack it up, up the field, all the players, no worrys son, balance out the window. Expected goals. Expected shipping. Expected delivery. No service. No Rice. No food. Now Rashford is injured. 28 months Jones, Sunnys knee and Rooneys moon, all been fixed, but Marcus half lit since he smashed his back againt the toon. Mou depressed behind the wheel, it was a big fecking deal. Crashed us all out on the M62, at least we all paid for a good view. Broken bones, broken club, we all lost, like really what the feck. Rebuild, bodybuild, leaky roof, takes time to heal. Oh. It is really the high preassure. Surely it must be the pressure. If we could only be the pressure
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Not even close. I've repeatedly been referring to the type of 'gegen pressing model developed in germany to specifically tackle barca's style under Pep. Especially the one model Klopp uses that requires high intensity play that he has described in detail NOT counter pressing as a whole. For some reason this simply fact escapes your notice ad nauseum and keep acting like I'm talking about counter pressing in general.
If you don't mind can you explain the following, which is contained in the quoted post - "That is the ONLY reason I labeled Klopps style 'gegen pressing' without giving Pep's version of counter pressing a name (its real name is Juego De Posición ) is to make it easier to differentiate between the two in lay mans terms"You really do know how to flatter yourself.
So what? At no point have I referred to conventional pressing as opposed to geggen pressing. Not once. Instead I referred to how Klopp himself has described his geggen pressing tactics as opposed to how Pep employs his pressing tactics. That is the ONLY reason I labeled Klopps style 'gegen pressing' without giving Pep's version of counter pressing a name (its real name is Juego De Posición ) is to make it easier to differentiate between the two in lay mans terms. The same reason why I said earlier when talking of their differing use of pressing tactics, I was focusing on their end of objectives. This is why I insist you understood jack shit about what I'm talking about but seem to think you are the fountain of knowledge on the issue. Asking me truly irrelevant questions repeatedly simply because of your own inability to understand
How the hell is this difference from what I stated much earlier?
I will repeat. In more elaborate fashion the last time
Guardiola’s goal with his counterpress is to prevent counters, to prevent a deformation of his attacking shape and to being able to secure the ball.
Guardiola, sees offensive transition as a mean to transition into the positional structure he wants for organized possession and position play with the ball. (a.k.a ball dominance)
For Klopp For him, counterpressing is the best playmaker and creates the best chances and shpts to score. The logic is clear: When the opposition tries to counter, they surrender their offensive structure whereas your team is still in it’s offensive structure. If you are able to win the ball at this moment, you’ll find gaps in the oppositional shape to attack them with your attacking players already in the proper positions and orientations. (a.ka. is pressing tactic is his chance maker in chief). Its even more effective as the opponents possession increases.
NONE of this above is comparing conventional pressing with counter pressing
Since when has 'Juego de Posicion' (positional play) become Pep's version of counter pressing? Juego de Posicion and counter pressing are two different methods.
I think it’s pretty clear we just buy players without an idea of tactical implementation. And this goes before Ole was manager as the same thing happened under José and LVG as well.
Many commented that with buying Sancho this would place Pogba back into central midfield. At that point we only had one Fred, McTominay or Matic to start. It was very clear we needed a better DM.
In addition Pogba does not press. In fact I would say he’s incredibly lazy defensively which is part of the reason our midfield is carved through by the opposition this season.
It’s not just Pogba’s fault because the starting position of Fred, Pogba and Bruno are all wrong. Fred is too deep, Pogba is usually on the verge of being a LM, and Bruno may as well be a CF. This has been a common theme this season. Add to this the lack of tracking back and pressing from Sancho, Greenwood and Ronaldo, and it’s no wonder we cannot press the ball. See the difference when Cavani came on against Villarreal. The press he made from 30/40 yards nearly created a chance (Ronaldo messed up) and invigorated the fans. The team that is being selected don’t want to press.
Many commented that with buying Sancho this would place Pogba back into central midfield. At that point we only had one Fred, McTominay or Matic to start. It was very clear we needed a better DM.
In addition Pogba does not press. In fact I would say he’s incredibly lazy defensively which is part of the reason our midfield is carved through by the opposition this season.
It’s not just Pogba’s fault because the starting position of Fred, Pogba and Bruno are all wrong. Fred is too deep, Pogba is usually on the verge of being a LM, and Bruno may as well be a CF. This has been a common theme this season. Add to this the lack of tracking back and pressing from Sancho, Greenwood and Ronaldo, and it’s no wonder we cannot press the ball. See the difference when Cavani came on against Villarreal. The press he made from 30/40 yards nearly created a chance (Ronaldo messed up) and invigorated the fans. The team that is being selected don’t want to press.
I think you're right in the bolded part and in your post in general. However, Ole is the manager, he should implement a style and then go from there. Pogba can't press? Well, too bad, you're on the bench. Oh now you're want to press, fine, we practice it and you are in the starting eleven again. I can't get around that. How difficult is it? It's basic! I genuinely think Ole is the worst coach in the league, together with Steve Bruce. Ole as a man manager is great and he can buy players among other things, but purely as a coach he and his stab are easily bottom table, and how can that be okay for Manchester United? It's so weird.
What about Bruno then?
I really don't see that he has abandoned the things that he often refers to when he talks about what he wants to see from his side.
We do press. We bought Varane in large part to support this and provide extra legs on the cover. There is a difference between ineffectiveness and abandonment of principles. We don't have many players that naturally coalesce with a Klopp style press if that's what you're expecting to see. We have a few too many that simply don't work as hard out of possession as we would like and the ones we have had (Lingard, James) are shunned by fans for issues of quality. The numbers for people like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood are staggeringly bad. You could say that's a coaching issue but they've always been this way. So of course you have to adapt your press if they're incapable of the running power necessary.
He talks about playing through the lines, getting it forward quickly, probably largely supported by his own experience as a forward, as they like to make runs and have a reasonable certainty the pass is coming. Well, guess what, with people like Bruno and Pogba that he's keen to include despite some doubts as to their combined merit, we have footballers that play the forcing pass. In fact we constantly turn the ball over forcing low percentage passes. It's easy to confuse slow tempo out of the back and through our holding players as contrary to this, but pretty much every Ole soundbyte suggests this isn't intentional, it may come down to the ability of said players.
We do press. We bought Varane in large part to support this and provide extra legs on the cover. There is a difference between ineffectiveness and abandonment of principles. We don't have many players that naturally coalesce with a Klopp style press if that's what you're expecting to see. We have a few too many that simply don't work as hard out of possession as we would like and the ones we have had (Lingard, James) are shunned by fans for issues of quality. The numbers for people like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood are staggeringly bad. You could say that's a coaching issue but they've always been this way. So of course you have to adapt your press if they're incapable of the running power necessary.
He talks about playing through the lines, getting it forward quickly, probably largely supported by his own experience as a forward, as they like to make runs and have a reasonable certainty the pass is coming. Well, guess what, with people like Bruno and Pogba that he's keen to include despite some doubts as to their combined merit, we have footballers that play the forcing pass. In fact we constantly turn the ball over forcing low percentage passes. It's easy to confuse slow tempo out of the back and through our holding players as contrary to this, but pretty much every Ole soundbyte suggests this isn't intentional, it may come down to the ability of said players.
What about him?
So Ole has no credit for him performing so well?
He was known as a pragmatic manager prior to his arrival here.
I don't see much that has changed in that regard.
I don't see much that has changed in that regard.