I swear all we do is cross it, over and over and over till their legs fall off. It's incomprehensible to even attempt it. That's the best way to score goals. And yet we NEVER try it.
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Why can't we play the ball through the centre?
- Thread starter AaronRedDevil
- Start date
Obviously most teams make it very hard for you to pass through the centre....but I kind of agree with your broader point in that I think we take the easy option of going out to the wing far too often. I imagine most PL teams are happy for us to stick crosses in, knowing most PL CBs are strong in aerial duals and we only play one up top
Worse and funny part is. We aren't even good at crossing the ball. They are exceptional at crossing it to the other side of the wing.
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I think it's a consequence of playing wide players who want to cut in. Whenever we play Rashford, Pogba or Sancho on the left their first instinct is to come in field. This causes the opposition full backs to tuck in and reduces space in the middle.
Also our full backs probably didn't provide enough of an attacking threat today. If we had full backs flying past our wide players it would help us to stretch the opposition and open up more space centrally.
Also our full backs probably didn't provide enough of an attacking threat today. If we had full backs flying past our wide players it would help us to stretch the opposition and open up more space centrally.
A couple of reasons:
-We do not have an involved no9 who can link-up play or hold the ball.
-Our central midfielders rarely make it into the box
-Our wide players are mostly limited and don't stay wide enough to create spaces
-Our fullback don't overlap to force the opposition to shift players on that side
-We move the ball too slowly
-Our players seem like total strangers at times and can't string 3 passes together
-For every team the easiest is to defend the center
-We do not have an involved no9 who can link-up play or hold the ball.
-Our central midfielders rarely make it into the box
-Our wide players are mostly limited and don't stay wide enough to create spaces
-Our fullback don't overlap to force the opposition to shift players on that side
-We move the ball too slowly
-Our players seem like total strangers at times and can't string 3 passes together
-For every team the easiest is to defend the center
Ronaldo
I thought all the rage these days ways to split the pitch in 5 vertically, and argue the 2nd and 4th column was the best place to create chances. The half space or something. Since it provides the best tradeoff between close to goal but still space available.
Or is that part of the centre in this thread?
Or is that part of the centre in this thread?
Average centre midfielders.
We did at one point, the Elanga chance. It was lovely 
We’ve always been so poor at it going back to the SAF days. We’ve basically never ever looked like a modern football side. Sigh.
Because midfield has no proper DM or CM
Lack of technical ability (to play the ‘harder’ pass) combined with lack of mental strength (to play the ‘riskier’ pass).
Lack of training at the club in that kind of play, even going back to Fergie the emphasis was always long diagonal ball to the wingers to start attacks.
Since then Van Gaal tried to get us playing but the players could never move the ball quick enough.
Since the we have had Mourinho who basically ball all accounts hardly trains attacking play and Ole, who seemed to have policy of just go out there and express yourself rather then specific training.
So basically we have never developed a culture of quick pass and move which is what you need to break teams down.
Since then Van Gaal tried to get us playing but the players could never move the ball quick enough.
Since the we have had Mourinho who basically ball all accounts hardly trains attacking play and Ole, who seemed to have policy of just go out there and express yourself rather then specific training.
So basically we have never developed a culture of quick pass and move which is what you need to break teams down.
The centre of the pitch is where there is the least space, so if you want to play through it you either need to have very very good technical players who can take the ball in small spaces under pressure e.g. xavi, iniesta etc. or you need to create space by pulling and dragging the central players out. I think when you look at classic pep barcelona and current pep city you can see examples of both.
Barca could play through the middle almost at ease due to busquets, xavi, iniesta, add in messi as a false 9 and it didnt matter if you packed the midfield. So many times you'd see them playing through the midfield then ping the ball to a wide open alves/fullback who then has so much space on the wing due the ball having been concentrated in the midfield.
City can play through the centre but I feel as if pep has them doing the opposite, they spend more time in possession closer to the wings looking to drag the centre players out to open up space in the centre. Other times they avoid it, look how many times de bruyne gets the ball to the right of centre on the channel between central midfield and the wing and then whips a cross in.
So for united we clearly havent got the players to play through the centre. We also don't have the players/structure/patience to pull players out of the centre. We play the ball to slow and hesitate too much.
Barca could play through the middle almost at ease due to busquets, xavi, iniesta, add in messi as a false 9 and it didnt matter if you packed the midfield. So many times you'd see them playing through the midfield then ping the ball to a wide open alves/fullback who then has so much space on the wing due the ball having been concentrated in the midfield.
City can play through the centre but I feel as if pep has them doing the opposite, they spend more time in possession closer to the wings looking to drag the centre players out to open up space in the centre. Other times they avoid it, look how many times de bruyne gets the ball to the right of centre on the channel between central midfield and the wing and then whips a cross in.
So for united we clearly havent got the players to play through the centre. We also don't have the players/structure/patience to pull players out of the centre. We play the ball to slow and hesitate too much.
Although there are other reasons, this is the biggest and most obvious reason. I would imagine the stats would show we are one of the lowest vertical passing teams.
We love the Hollywood pass too much.
Coming back to this because it's something I have thought about a fair bit lately.
For me, we have to be braver and stop taking the easy option of attacking down the flanks. There's a reason teams leave space there....because it's not a threat!
The intention should be to get the wide forwards closer to Ronaldo and then play off him every time. Quick passes into Ronaldo, immediately bounce the ball off to one of the three attackers and launch an attack from there. This has the added advantage of ultimately making CBs more worried about Ronaldo coming short than in-behind, so pulls them out of their block, away from goal and leaves the ball over the top on and space for the wide forwards to attack.
Ronaldo isn't the ideal forward for this, but it's what we have right now, although I'd like to see Bruno Fernandes given a run of games in this role, kind of as a false 9, which then also lets us get Matic and Pogba on the pitch together - giving us more ability to play through the lines.
If Sancho, Elanga or Rashford DO receive the ball out wide, they should drive inwards, towards the centre, looking for wall-passes or little balls in-behind defenders for the CF to run onto. Elanga did this really well at the weekend and it should be the default option. Forget these underlapping runs and looking to get the full backs in, we're not geared up for it. Sure, they should provide support and the odd overlapping run when it's on, but it shouldn't be the main focus of our attacks.
For me, we have to be braver and stop taking the easy option of attacking down the flanks. There's a reason teams leave space there....because it's not a threat!
The intention should be to get the wide forwards closer to Ronaldo and then play off him every time. Quick passes into Ronaldo, immediately bounce the ball off to one of the three attackers and launch an attack from there. This has the added advantage of ultimately making CBs more worried about Ronaldo coming short than in-behind, so pulls them out of their block, away from goal and leaves the ball over the top on and space for the wide forwards to attack.
Ronaldo isn't the ideal forward for this, but it's what we have right now, although I'd like to see Bruno Fernandes given a run of games in this role, kind of as a false 9, which then also lets us get Matic and Pogba on the pitch together - giving us more ability to play through the lines.
If Sancho, Elanga or Rashford DO receive the ball out wide, they should drive inwards, towards the centre, looking for wall-passes or little balls in-behind defenders for the CF to run onto. Elanga did this really well at the weekend and it should be the default option. Forget these underlapping runs and looking to get the full backs in, we're not geared up for it. Sure, they should provide support and the odd overlapping run when it's on, but it shouldn't be the main focus of our attacks.
It's pretty obvious if you watch the matches. Our central midfields movement is absolutely shocking. So if we are playing it out from the back, generally we'll have 1 midfielder come to the backline, usually McTominay or Fred, usually McTominay's hiding though. The other 2 midfielders then stand near the forward line, they don't come into the center of midfield in order to help the DM pass forward, so it has to go sidewards.
Seriously, watch any of our games for the past few seasons, we have the ball at the back and then look to your left or right (on the tv) and notice the huge patch of green grass in the middle without a single United player in it except maybe 1 midfielder.
Seriously, watch any of our games for the past few seasons, we have the ball at the back and then look to your left or right (on the tv) and notice the huge patch of green grass in the middle without a single United player in it except maybe 1 midfielder.
That's how Ralf has always set his teams up from my understanding so it is surprising we don't see more of it. I think we just don't have the right personnel to do the job Ronaldo would probably be able to do that it's the one thing he's not been terrible at but the others don't naturally make those runs.
Our defence and midfield cause a lot of the issue though, you look at Liverpool and they have attackers in space constantly as they break the lines quickly where as ours slowly progress the ball and suddenly it's too difficult to penetrate the defence.
In part it comes down to bravery with the ball. When City see a player in the middle and he's in an advanced space which is still relatively close to an opposition player they usually still thread the ball through. It's confidence and courage to make the pass and confidence to trust the receiver. There are players in half-spaces for us at times, but we're reticent to play any pass other than the super high percentage. Watch any City game and look at the amount of central threaded balls that they take, that we pass up on. Largely, it's mental strength and bravery. Outside that, it's tactical positioning on an individual and collective level.
Are you sure this is even true?
4 teams have successfully completed more through balls than us this season. City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea.
4 have crossed more. City, Liverpool, West Ham, Brighton.
Looks fairly balanced to me, with us, City and Liverpool in the top 5 in both categories making up 3 of the top 4 in the table.
4 teams have successfully completed more through balls than us this season. City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea.
4 have crossed more. City, Liverpool, West Ham, Brighton.
Looks fairly balanced to me, with us, City and Liverpool in the top 5 in both categories making up 3 of the top 4 in the table.
Possibly because we’re shite.
we're shit, no need to over-think it
I think so as well. I think SAF didn't care much about midfield in his last few seasons ("no value in the market times"). When other clubs seem to build the team around functional midfield (three), we seem to be a team in which midfielders have little impact on the game. I don't think it is because of personnel, because it's clear we value energy and hustle over actuall ball playing ability (we could field a functional midfield with Matic, Pogba and Fred/van de Beek).
Big reason IMO is how little our forwards (Ronaldo, Rashford, Bruno) are actually involved in the buildup play. Quite often they just stand out wide waiting for the ball, it makes it difficult to play through the midfield if they are not dropping deep.
Ronaldo dropping deep to pass it back to CB doesn't count for buildup play.
Our main goalscorer this season wants to head it in whilst also having minimal hold up play ability (effecting the other forwards).
Last season this wasnt the case and we had a front 3 with a more mixed attacking style.
Last season this wasnt the case and we had a front 3 with a more mixed attacking style.
We do not have a good enough defensive midfielder, nor do we have pacy enough defenders, to push enough players into attacking positions.
Our midfield do not consistently pass the ball well enough to dominate the opposition, play quickly enough to beat a press or stretch the defence, nor have players who are dominant or skilful enough to win 50-50s/ 1-on-1s (aside from Pogba, who doesn’t work hard enough defensively). That means we often pass sideways, or lose the ball and relieve pressure.
Ronaldo is too static and doesn’t do much apart from poach. This means we don’t have someone to create space for others to run into. He and Bruno are very selfish, often squandering good chances instead of playing a much easier pass. Ronaldo this year is also a very poor finisher, and has missed so many easy chances.
Many successful teams now utilise their wing backs to draw defenders across to create space, and ours aren’t very good at scoring goals or providing consistent deliveries.
Our midfield do not consistently pass the ball well enough to dominate the opposition, play quickly enough to beat a press or stretch the defence, nor have players who are dominant or skilful enough to win 50-50s/ 1-on-1s (aside from Pogba, who doesn’t work hard enough defensively). That means we often pass sideways, or lose the ball and relieve pressure.
Ronaldo is too static and doesn’t do much apart from poach. This means we don’t have someone to create space for others to run into. He and Bruno are very selfish, often squandering good chances instead of playing a much easier pass. Ronaldo this year is also a very poor finisher, and has missed so many easy chances.
Many successful teams now utilise their wing backs to draw defenders across to create space, and ours aren’t very good at scoring goals or providing consistent deliveries.
Personnel I would guess. We don't really have men in the middle that are going to unlock the door, unless we can work it to Bruno in space. But to gain space you need width and to stretch play quickly. If we only have one guy in the middle likely to find a pass it stands to reason we wouldn't focus our play there.
The other thing is we've relied on full backs to build play for a long time. It may be for the same reason, we lack technical ability through the side and the full back is the easy out ball. They therefore should have a creative influence but in practice they rarely do.
The other thing is we've relied on full backs to build play for a long time. It may be for the same reason, we lack technical ability through the side and the full back is the easy out ball. They therefore should have a creative influence but in practice they rarely do.
talent in midfield is lacking, and we've bypassed using it for years. for years the midfield has been used just to pass it back or sideways.
I keep screaming about our attacking shape. We always seem to have 70% of the team on the left and the remaining on the right with ginormous gaps between each line of players. A simple pass becomes a 20 yard pass which is easily intercepted because we are shite passers. The 1 person we have in the middle is the RCB.
So frustrating to watch specially when the likes of Pool or City always have players central and close to each other
So frustrating to watch specially when the likes of Pool or City always have players central and close to each other
Because we don't have a CDM whois good on the ball and press resistant.
Watch the positions of our midfielders when our CBs have the ball,our midfielders don't create space for themselves or demand for the ball.
Secondly our off the ball movement is bad,our players rarely move off the ball to create space for themselves or their teammates.
Lastly, we dont have ball carriers in midfield.
Watch the positions of our midfielders when our CBs have the ball,our midfielders don't create space for themselves or demand for the ball.
Secondly our off the ball movement is bad,our players rarely move off the ball to create space for themselves or their teammates.
Lastly, we dont have ball carriers in midfield.
I'm think most of the time they're too afraid to take the risk so they go with the safer option. Whether they lack the belief in their own abilities or they just genuinely lack the ability to make those kind of passes, either way be need to upgrade the midfield.
Because our number 10 keeps on losing the ball or tries to pass to the wings.
Your man is right. Watch how disjointed/disconnected our midfield is when we're in possession. Both DM's drop off to suggest they want a ball they'd really rather not have (I'll exclude Matic in this), Bruno, along with the other forward players are often too far advanced (or at least too far away!) and are typically very flat, meaning there's a 40 yard hole in the midfield.
I think the real problem is that we can't pass.
Honestly, I think it's because the players don't offer movement to get open for a pass and bring defenders out of position enough. They play pretty slow and lack urgency to move the ball / themselves and create openings in the defense.
Occasionally someone makes a run for a throughball - that's about it.
Opposition Defenders don't have to move around much because no one is making them move - defenders and our attackers practically stand still next to one another the whole time when we're in possession. We're slow to put together attacks unless we're on a counter. Faster passes, more movement would open teams up. We usually pass side to side while our forwards stand still and once in a while hit a through ball.
Occasionally someone makes a run for a throughball - that's about it.
Opposition Defenders don't have to move around much because no one is making them move - defenders and our attackers practically stand still next to one another the whole time when we're in possession. We're slow to put together attacks unless we're on a counter. Faster passes, more movement would open teams up. We usually pass side to side while our forwards stand still and once in a while hit a through ball.
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Think you got that smack on. Our better players are on the wings and you got McFred going through the centre mainly.
We can probably get away with it if we get a better RB & RW.
We can then just bypass the midfield and just go down the flanks. It'll make us a bit predictable but should be good enough to beat most teams
We can then just bypass the midfield and just go down the flanks. It'll make us a bit predictable but should be good enough to beat most teams
No one in the central area of our team can hold the ball up. Players know that. Passing the ball through the centre is lose-lose battle. If they don’t find a teammate, opposition is coming right at them with a counter. If they do find a teammate, result is likely the same, a counterattack after one of our players loses the ball cheaply.
it could help if we had better talent at those spots combined with better movement, overlapping, sending early crosses and just in general crossing without taking 15 slow touches but the team would still run into issues where opposition sit in a low block and say go ahead and send crosses in.
We lack a midfielder who's skilled at passing through the lines and our tempo is too slow.