Who/what in your opinion is currently holding the club back?

We have many problems. I can't really talk what is happening at the office as I can't see it, but we have some sort of a cultural problem at the team. We got too many players that started very well and then just dipped into total mediocrity. We also had many signings that never took off. Why is that? I am not really sure. It seems to me that the pressure to succeed is actually immense and that's why so many players fall under the pressure instead of rising to the occasion. Ferguson could get players to rise / perform at or above the skill level, but managers since then were not able to get them to perform even close to their abilities. Why? I am really not sure (I know I am using this for the second time). Nobody seems to be able to answer that question.
Just this season is an example where we have played amazing against the teams everyone was expecting we lose 2 or 3 to 0, but on another hand we laid en egg against weaker opponents.

We need some sort of identity after SAF. The club has not had any sort of identity. What are we? Obviously that counter attacking / direct football can't work against the teams that park the bus.

One thing I know: We need a f**king leader on the field. Ideally we need a core, but just having a leader would help. Moyes didn't like Vidic and maybe Vidic was past it as shown in Inter Milan. Van Gal was trying things with Rooney and got Schweinsteiger, but Schweinsteiger was in love with a tennis ex-star and totally lost his footballing abilities. Mourinho got Pogba, but Pogba can't lead Man Utd. Somehow he managed to lead France to World Cup (which is suppose to be harder), but can't lead Man Utd to anything and seems like a distraction.

If Fernandes, Martial and Rashford do not form a trio that is aided by Pogba + couple of signings we are in deep trouble and we will have to rebuild... again. That means good bye Ole and hello to someone else, and then we go again from scratch.

O and we need to get rid of that Chevy logo. That gold logo on a red shirt looks like sh1t.
 
tenpoless said:
Glaziers = Don't know about football
Lindgard = Average academy player being hold on to for too long, as a first teamer
Bugba = Has a toxic agent
MacGuire = Fighting in Greece
Linderlof = Not good enough
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Did you purposely try and misspell things?
 
Bazi said:
As an outsider United's biggest shortcoming appears to be the inability to fill a certain percentage of your roster with smart and relatively cheap transfers. You have got to identify talent at the right time, take a bit of risk and with the right culture you too can have your own version of Gnabry, Kimmich, Coman and Davies for less than 50m €. There is never enough money to fill a core 18 men rotation just with big expensive signings.
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Very smart observation from the outside. How have Bayern done it so magnificently? I mean we all have scouts and big data. What’s the secret?
 
Excellence in A) on the pitch management and B) off the pitch administration. As simple as that. Tactically we've been the most backward big club of the 2010s. And when it comes to how we're run, it's clear the structure just isn't efficient given we never get good deals, almost ever.

If you're run badly you have little chance.
 
Bazi said:
As an outsider United's biggest shortcoming appears to be the inability to fill a certain percentage of your roster with smart and relatively cheap transfers. You have got to identify talent at the right time, take a bit of risk and with the right culture you too can have your own version of Gnabry, Kimmich, Coman and Davies for less than 50m €. There is never enough money to fill a core 18 men rotation just with big expensive signings.
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Absolutely. We simply aren't intelligent in how we operate. Zero inspiration and constantly going for obvious targets. And it's not just Bayern but plenty of clubs who get this done - see Mane, Salah, Wijnaldun, Robertson etc at Livepool for example.
 
this is what I really don’t get. With the money they are spending they could hire great people and actually be more successful but they are deaf and blind to the possibility of it as long as the money keeps rolling in. It’s like they are happy to pretend to run a football club. Look here’s some transfers and new managers but that’s it. They could take all the money and sign nobody but they’d be driven out. This is just death by 1000 cuts. There’s barely any order to it all. It’s so frustrating!!!
 
So I love Ole and I want him to succeed but it’s him but also not him, it’s our inability to hire the right manager. We have to remember that Liverpool fans HATED their owners. They really thought they were absolute shit. But then they bring in Klopp and their investment hasn’t improved much, but he’s taken them to being a CL winning and a ridiculous prem winning side. If we had a manger of his ability with our finances which may not be as great as advertised, but are still far greater than Liverpool’s, we’d be laughing.
 
Are we in decline or part of an inevitably natural cycle of the up and down phases associated with modern day football?

Victories solidify strength, but its moments of struggle that define it.
 
Ali Dia said:
this is what I really don’t get. With the money they are spending they could hire great people and actually be more successful but they are deaf and blind to the possibility of it as long as the money keeps rolling in. It’s like they are happy to pretend to run a football club. Look here’s some transfers and new managers but that’s it. They could take all the money and sign nobody but they’d be driven out. This is just death by 1000 cuts. There’s barely any order to it all. It’s so frustrating!!!
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This. I mean when rumours came out about us pursuing a DoF, Neville went on a rant saying we should be employing the ‘best in class’. We have enough funds to be employing some of the best scouts, coaches, managers, DoFs in the world. If you had a director who understood football they could still keep money being syphoned out of the club but still have us performing at an elite level.
 
The board. Can't even blame the spending as much, we've spent more than enough to be competitive. Where we've lacked is the proper footballing staff to overlook that spending and spending at the wrong times imo. We only seem to spend when shit has hit the fan, rather than when we are making progress, to progress further.

The lack of the correct staff has also resulted in no consistency and no proper vision, which has got us to this point. If we had hired a DOF years ago, we wouldn't have needed to spend 100m every window, with a completely new manager, with different tactics preferring a completely different style of player.
 
I suppose the first question is "holding United back from where? ". Cos there seems to be a big disconnect between where we the fans want the club and where the owners want it to be. It's becoming apparent they're satisfied with just Champions league qualification which keeps their revenue rolling in. In which case we're right on track and not being held back at all. They're not football people and just might have no real interest in the legacy of United as a football club. SAF was still in place when they came and that kept us competitive. Once he left, the center could no longer hold.
 
ExoduS said:
We have many problems. I can't really talk what is happening at the office as I can't see it, but we have some sort of a cultural problem at the team. We got too many players that started very well and then just dipped into total mediocrity. We also had many signings that never took off. Why is that? I am not really sure. It seems to me that the pressure to succeed is actually immense and that's why so many players fall under the pressure instead of rising to the occasion. Ferguson could get players to rise / perform at or above the skill level, but managers since then were not able to get them to perform even close to their abilities. Why? I am really not sure (I know I am using this for the second time). Nobody seems to be able to answer that question.
Just this season is an example where we have played amazing against the teams everyone was expecting we lose 2 or 3 to 0, but on another hand we laid en egg against weaker opponents.

We need some sort of identity after SAF. The club has not had any sort of identity. What are we? Obviously that counter attacking / direct football can't work against the teams that park the bus.

One thing I know: We need a f**king leader on the field. Ideally we need a core, but just having a leader would help. Moyes didn't like Vidic and maybe Vidic was past it as shown in Inter Milan. Van Gal was trying things with Rooney and got Schweinsteiger, but Schweinsteiger was in love with a tennis ex-star and totally lost his footballing abilities. Mourinho got Pogba, but Pogba can't lead Man Utd. Somehow he managed to lead France to World Cup (which is suppose to be harder), but can't lead Man Utd to anything and seems like a distraction.

If Fernandes, Martial and Rashford do not form a trio that is aided by Pogba + couple of signings we are in deep trouble and we will have to rebuild... again. That means good bye Ole and hello to someone else, and then we go again from scratch.

O and we need to get rid of that Chevy logo. That gold logo on a red shirt looks like sh1t.
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Pogba was never a leader in France. He was a junior player, in fact hardly shining at all, just showed up and did his part, for the team.
 
Contrast us with Citeh who were clearly interested in a football first project. Not that they need the money anyway. They've filled their set up with proper football people. Built a frankly admirable and top notch football operation. Like night and day between us and them now sadly.
 
Woodward helped with setting up a fantastic structure at youth level. A structure that puts people, other than the coach in charge of recruitment.

And that's what needs to be replicated at first team level. Nicky Butt should be groomed for the role of Sporting director IMO. We have everything in place regards the personnel, all we need is someone to do the tweaking and provide stability.
 
DRJosh said:
Are we in decline or part of an inevitably natural cycle of the up and down phases associated with modern day football?

Victories solidify strength, but its moments of struggle that define it.
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It's been nearly a decade now. We have already declined. This isn't one of things that just happens. We are a stale footballer club as far as I can see, who have fallen behind the modern game.
 
The main thing I can point my finger at is being old fashioned. Old fashioned structure, old fashioned tactics, and old fashioned ideals.

To move forward we need to get with the times and try and start setting the trend. By all accounts we did so with our marketing department which has been the leading model, we just need the footballing side to follow suit.
 
Adnan said:
Woodward helped with setting up a fantastic structure at youth level. A structure that puts people, other than the coach in charge of recruitment.

And that's what needs to be replicated at first team level. Nicky Butt should be groomed for the role of Sporting director IMO. We have everything in place regards the personnel, all we need is someone to do the tweaking and provide stability.
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I like the Nicky Butt idea in theory but surely we should wait till at least one of his signings succeeds in the first team. I would be more interested in bringing in someone proven with an existing world wide network and let Butt get on with the good work.
 
Like others have said, we're exactly where the owners want us to be. So in their eyes we aren't being held back, at all.

As long as the club keeps turning a profit, they genuinely couldn't give a flying feck what we achieve. If they could find a way to spend even less money and still turn a profit, they'd do it.

They haven't sacked managers for failing to win anything, they've sacked them for costing them money. Top 4 is the ONLY objective.

Football, success, prestige and the fans, mean absolute nothing to the scumbag leeches that have stolen our club.
 
Ali Dia said:
I like the Nicky Butt idea in theory but surely we should wait till at least one of his signings succeeds in the first team. I would be more interested in bringing in someone proven with an existing world wide network and let Butt get on with the good work.
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When I look at the successful big teams around Europe and how they operate. I see one common denominator and that is their football department is led by people who are associated to the club.

We have everything in place at our club. We just need to put the correct pieces into place. Nicky Butt would be ideal IMO and Nick Cox can carry on with the good work at youth level.
 
Ali Dia said:
this is what I really don’t get. With the money they are spending they could hire great people and actually be more successful but they are deaf and blind to the possibility of it as long as the money keeps rolling in. It’s like they are happy to pretend to run a football club. Look here’s some transfers and new managers but that’s it. They could take all the money and sign nobody but they’d be driven out. This is just death by 1000 cuts. There’s barely any order to it all. It’s so frustrating!!!
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The gist of this post is "The Great Filter" of the fanbase's exploration of what exactly might be going on behind the curtains. Also Hanlon's Razor.

Long story short, it's a combination of the Glazer children not being as smart as Papa Glazer and Woodward being this.
 
He'sRaldo said:
The main thing I can point my finger at is being old fashioned. Old fashioned structure, old fashioned tactics, and old fashioned ideals.

To move forward we need to get with the times and try and start setting the trend. By all accounts we did so with our marketing department which has been the leading model, we just need the footballing side to follow suit.
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Exactly. Modern tactics and progressive football. DoF/sporting director model. Use of statistics and analytics when it comes to transfers.

The only area we have truly progressed in is the youth structure.
 
I see a couple things that many have touched on.

A DoF that oversees all the football operations. That way we keep a philosophy and player continuity between managers. There likely won't be another SAF who runs all aspects of the footballing and stays as long as he did. We have spent a ton of money for different managers that all had different play styles and now we are stuck with their overpaid leftovers. Every team is going to miss a target or a new player won't turn out but we need to at least keep recruiting the same types of players and how managers with similar philosophies a DoF could help this.

The other part is the media and fans. This is United the expectations should be high. But with United having a massive and passionate fan base the media takes advantage of it for clicks. The club PR, leaks and briefs are terrible and lead to even wilder expectations. United's PR has been great through COVID but their briefs and media formula with transfers is so bad. This is becoming more obvious in the Sancho saga. Dortmund are very open and clear with their own spin making United look incompetent regardless what happens. Getting pushed around and taxed is one thing but leaving it open with obvious briefs is another. There is always going to be competition and sagas with transfers but we have to have a clearer message. At some point I would like to see us do what Madrid has done by shutting down some of the rumors.

With all of that I think we are on the right track with our last two windows. Hopefully we can build from this season. I worry if we don't reinforce and we have some injuries we will be battling for 4th and Ole will be on the line then we will be set with another rebuild.
 
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There is no clear division in responsibilities. Ed Woodward who is clearly not a football man does not want to relinquish his power over everything. There needs to be a proper football committee and a director of football who should work independently in the footballing matters from the CEO and only involve Woodward when it comes to financing.
Too much involvement and influence of former players is also becoming detrimental. They clearly have connections inside the management and they try to influence from outside. That is why it is very important for United to have a strong manager of right profile with no past connections with the club. Both Poch and Conte fit that profile. Also for DoF both Berta and Mitchell have the right profiles. But it all depends on board and Woodward how soon they realise their ineptitude in footballing matters. All we can do is hope.
 
It drips down from the very top, it's a domino effect. Glazers- Board of directors- Ed Woodward-Matt Judge- manager-scouting department.

The power is given by the Glazers to let Woodward have control, they after concerned about short term profit. He's been good at milking the name through sponsorship. He's a banker with no understanding of football, the failings in the transfer market are because we don't have the right people in charge. This nonsense is consequences from poor appointments. There is no change coming and we are badly run. We all know these answers and it changes nothing by pointing them out. Man United's lack of investment on the stadium, long term planning on players, contracts, scouting, negotiating transfers is all off. It's like getting someone to design who a house that can't do it. There will be problems in every area and have have a knock effect, a ripple effect of bad choices

Man United would be the best team in Europe if they done some things properly. The ownership isn't concerned long term hence the debt. If United revamped the stadium, brought the capacity up another 10 to 20k which they could fill. You would get bigger revenue, harder for opposition and make more money long term. That only one example of improving the club. It's all about short term gain, do the least amount to keep the fans off there back. The disrespect they have is incredible, fans continue to buy. Boycott the lot, think of the long term. We know they aren't going anywhere while they are making money. Maybe if the uncertainty continues they will well sell up, a man can dream. Doubt it though, this window is the most startling of there true ambition.
 
The stark reality is that when Bruno came we went up a thousand notches. It showed how lacklustre we had become. He raised everybody's game a hundred percent. We need a couple more class players around the park. That would do. Minor tweaks for a big impact.
 
Jibbs said:
That is why it is very important for United to have a strong manager of right profile with no past connections with the club. Both Poch and Conte fit that profile.
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You got facts / stats to back that up sir ? Conte is the right profile for the club ? For real ?
 
Lack of experience football people at board level. We need at least a CEO and a DOF who knows what they are doing, who can spot bargains, sign players swiftly and get rid of the deadwood in an efficient way. Meanwhile salaries for squad players should be kept low so they can easily be sold once their time with the club is up.
 
devilish said:
Lack of experience football people at board level. We need at least a CEO and a DOF who knows what they are doing, who can spot bargains, sign players swiftly and get rid of the deadwood in an efficient way. Meanwhile salaries for squad players should be kept low so they can easily be sold once their time with the club is up.
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Yeah, this is it. Once we resolve this and you have excellence in how the club is run, that then trickles down to good deals in the transfer market and quality managers being hired and the impact is felt on the pitch.

With Chelsea, Livepool, Bayern etc you always hear about how people behind the scenes are as responsible for their good work as the manager is (those getting business done not Klopp, Lampard etc ). With us, does anyone EVER praise Woodward and judge ? Very rarely. Same with our managers to be fair. Like I said , one thing leads to another.

I do think a great manager is also hugely influential and hence can paper over other cracks. But I don't expect us to get one of those anyway.
 
Adnan said:
Woodward helped with setting up a fantastic structure at youth level. A structure that puts people, other than the coach in charge of recruitment.

And that's what needs to be replicated at first team level. Nicky Butt should be groomed for the role of Sporting director IMO. We have everything in place regards the personnel, all we need is someone to do the tweaking and provide stability.
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The rebuilding process is just too big and we can't afford yet another person who on the job learning. That doesn't mean there's no space for former United players. In my opinion we should

a- divide the club into two ie the financial side which is lead by Woodward and the football side with VDS as CEO
b- we create the vice president role like the one Juventus and Inter have. Sir Alex can take the job for a year or two then the job can be passed down to someone like Ole, Phelan or Giggs
c- we bring in a DOF. I'd say someone like Rangnick would be perfect.

We need a healthy balance between the economical side and the football side + a healthy balance between what this club represent and new ideas from the outside.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Yeah, this is it. Once we resolve this and you have excellence in how the club is run, that then trickles down to good deals in the transfer market and quality managers being hired and the impact is felt on the pitch.

With Chelsea, Livepool, Bayern etc you always hear about how people behind the scenes are as responsible for their good work as the manager is (those getting business done not Klopp, Lampard etc ). With us, does anyone EVER praise Woodward and judge ? Very rarely. Same with our managers to be fair. Like I said , one thing leads to another.

I do think a great manager is also hugely influential and hence can paper over other cracks. But I don't expect us to get one of those anyway.
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If we're searching for a SAF then forget it. Those managers are gone. Nowadays managers are used to rely on a DOF, a head of recruitment and a board of directors with people who are knowledgeable in football. It's like expecting modern soldiers to fight in a triplex Acies system. You can hire the best SAS, Mossad or Navy Seal and they would still be clueless

United's main problem is each job description is so big that its possible for somebody to do extremely well on one side and incredibly badly on another. Take Woodward as an example. He's shit in terms of the football side of things but he's a wizard in terms of generating money. Should we fire him? Of course not. Should he still have the ultimate say on football matters? Hell no

The same with managers. Many of us (me included) had moaned about transfers in the past years including Ole's Brexit United. However we fail to appreciate that the manager is taking care of something (ie spotting players and giving the go ahead for transfers) that he neither has the experience nor the time to do. Sure he can rely on our scouts but ultimately if they feck it up it still goes on him. So can you blame him for giving the thumbs up only for players he trust? We're talking about investments that cost millions here.

We need to break these jobs and put experienced specialised people in them.
 
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devilish said:
The rebuilding process is just too big and we can't afford yet another person who on the job learning. That doesn't mean there's no space for former United players. In my opinion we should

a- divide the club into two ie the financial side which is lead by Woodward and the football side with VDS as CEO
b- we create the vice president role like the one Juventus and Inter have. Sir Alex can take the job for a year or two then the job can be passed down to someone like Ole, Phelan or Giggs
c- we bring in a DOF. I'd say someone like Rangnick would be perfect.

We need a healthy balance between the economical side and the football side + a healthy balance between what this club represent and new ideas from the outside.
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A vice president role isn't gonna happen under the current owners.

The job isn't too big for us to look elsewhere. All we need is the scouting department and Sporting director to be given the task to recruit players and set a footballing philosophy with a view to a mid to long term plan that aligns with our traditions. We have some of the best scouts in the business who haven't been utilised to their potential.

Rangnick would be fine but he's done a great job at a club where the emphasis was on buying youth players at a stepping stone club to sell on for profit. We have people at the club who could do that.
 
Adnan said:
A vice president role isn't gonna happen under the current owners.

The job isn't too big for us to look elsewhere. All we need is the scouting department and Sporting director to be given the task to recruit players and set a footballing philosophy and mid to long term plan that aligns with our traditions. We have some of the best scouts in the business who haven't been utilised to their potential.

Rangnick would be fine but he's done a great job at a club where the emphasis was on buying youth players at a stepping stone club to sell on for profit. We have people at the club who could do that.
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As said in the previous post it should be about balancing things between the club's traditions and new ideas, between experience and enthusiasm. Having the likes of VDS & Sir Alex/Giggs back will bring a lot of the former especially since there's already people like Ole, Phelan and Butt at the club. On the other hand we do need new people here. We're becoming too cautious and narrow minded especially surrounding transfers.
 
altodevil said:
Far off the pace in the league. Diminishing reputation in the continent. No effective/decisive plan of improvement this summer.

No this isn't another having a moan thread, I'd like to think the above we can all agree on. anyway.

I am just interested in folks opinion on the question in the thread title:

Who/what do you think is holding the club back?

i.e What is the main contributor to our recent lack of success and loss of club stature?
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Nothing...If you ask the owners and Ed. The club is in great shape despite the pandemic.
 
devilish said:
As said in the previous post it should be about balancing things between the club's traditions and new ideas, between experience and enthusiasm. Having the likes of VDS & Sir Alex/Giggs back will bring a lot of the former especially since there's already people like Ole, Phelan and Butt at the club. On the other hand we do need new people here. We're becoming too cautious and narrow minded especially surrounding transfers.
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All i'm saying is that we just need to give absolute power to the scouts/sporting director. Because even if the headcoach is sacked the philosophy and plan going forward are still intact. Which hasn't been the case post Fergie because we've given too much power to the headcoach when it comes to recruitment which has seen us buy players for the coaches philosophy rather than the clubs. So each time we sacked a coach the next guy came in and started a clear out which has hurt us the most. We also lost players like Zaha, Nani, Rafael, Evans, Hernandez, Van Persie etc for peanuts. Players like Rio, Vidic and Evra left without us having a plan on how to replace them. This has to stop and we as a club need to have a recruitment team/football department that is independent from the head coach.

I don't mind having someone like Rangnick coming in to oversee the mid to longterm plan. But honestly I don't think it's necessary because I believe we have the people already at the club who could do the job. Personally I'd like to see us go with the Red Bull model and have Nicky Butt as the Sporting director with someone like Marcel Bout as the head of recruitment who would collate all the scout reports and report to Butt.
 
Slik said:
Yes to a few of those questions.
I remember “Announce Sanchez” Trending online with United fans saying sign him at all cost, don’t let him go to City. Same thing is happening with Sancho now. If the club spends so much money to sign him, firstly the pressure on him will be so huge and he could fail to meet the astronomical expectations that will come with the fee involved and we the same fans will berate him online. Our toxic online fan base is a serious issue. And because we have more fans than other clubs and due to our history, it’s worse than what happens at other clubs.

And also yes, the fans decided how much we should pay de gea .It was just last year that fans were putting in all the pressure online and saying how incompetent Woodward is for not yet signing De gea on to another contract and even blaming his poor form since the World Cup on the contract issues. Our toxic online fan base kept saying pay him whatever he deserves it all. Even Sanchez is on this amount. So pay de gea whatever. Now these same fans are forgetting that and blames the board for not predicting De Gea will become so poor in such a short period of time and for giving him the money fans claimed he deserved.

Our fan base is so toxic. We clamor and preassure our club for signings etc and when it fails we forget we asked for it. And blame Woodward for being clueless. Alexis Sanchez case is a typical example.
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We have a big fan base, one of the biggest fan bases and you expect everyone to sing from the same sheet?

I have also seen Ole out trending on twitter alot of times, does that mean the board is going to be forced to sack him?

I have seen sign messi trending, does that mean we will sign him?

You do realise the board is meant to employ people to work on United and decisions are made there and not because twitter fans said so? Are you that naive into thinking that decisions are made from looking at twitter?

Sancho, it's because the club has shown interest in the player, Ole wants him, we all know he is the perfect fit on the right. Pressure or not he is 20 so there is re-sale value just like Pogba.

Did you see sign Dybala last season? No because the club had said no, this is not happening.

Our fan base is toxic if you think all twitter fans are United fans. That is only a portion of fans.
 
sammsky1 said:
Very smart observation from the outside. How have Bayern done it so magnificently? I mean we all have scouts and big data. What’s the secret?
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I'd guess that
a) not all scouts and big data are created equal,
b) big data and scout reports can only do so much. Information is presented to the higher ups, and what they do with it depends on their competence.
 
I think its long line of things, we've pretty much invested badly since the summer Ronaldo and Tevez left and we replaced them with Owen and Valencia, under Fergie we let the squad age and had no real succession plan. There was a period under Fergie when he hadn't signed a centre midfielder in 6 years!!!

Since then it has been mess after mess, Woodward while obviously a genius in the commercial deal sector is a disaster in football ones. The squad building has been a disaster, mainly down to the incoherent manger choices, going from Van Gaal. a manager who player possession football who likes to work with your players, to Mourinho a manager who like to play without the ball and use players in their late 20' and give them both 100's of millions to spend.

Now we sit here with a MASSIVE squad of high wages and it is really hard to sell any of them as hey won't earn what they are here anywhere else. We also now have a reputation for massively overpaying in fees and wages making signing people really hard.

Plus we have a fan base who seem to basically seem to be acting like spoilt children having a paddy that the club won't spend 100+ million on a player in the middle of a pandemic, at the start of probably the biggest economic crisis in history and no fans been allowed in the stadium until there is a vaccine.
 
Depends on the lens you look at it from.

From a supporters/footballing success POV, it's quite clearly the owners who have failed to appoint a footballing guy at the top to run the footballing side of things. Woodward is a money who does his job well but he should never be in charge of the footballing side and that's our biggest problem.

From the owners lens, do they even think anything is being held back? They're raking in money and as long as we're in the CL spots, do they even give a feck? It wouldn't surprise me at all if they simply believe that the investment needed to win titles is simply not worth it for them.
 
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