1. Owners/Board
2. Woodward
3. Managers
4. Players
5. Fans
6. Ferguson
7. Rangnick
Who is to blame? - Super thread
- Thread starter devilish
- Start date
2. Woodward
3. Managers
4. Players
5. Fans
6. Ferguson
7. Rangnick
Is Roy aware that Ralf is only an interim manager? Some of his observations have merit but the board are not looking past May as far as Ralf is concerned.
As I said in the initial post, this is a list of 'blame' starting with Rangnick being the least to blame. I believe that Rangnick is the best thing ever to happen to United since SAF. He's the only person we employed who has a holistic view of how a club should be run (top to bottom) and actual experience on to implement that. The fact that our lazy and entitled players are causing a scene + 'the boys' are leaving is clear testament that Rangnick is doing a good job.
However while I am a big Rangnick fan I do question the wisdom behind implementing so many changes in such a short time. Gegenpressing is something that already takes a lot of effort to and practice to learn and to do that during Covid and with these players around is already very tough as it is. Do we really need to do that with a 2 strikers system whose so ancient that are nearly a liability in terms of pressing? That takes an incredible toil on our midfielders whom we all know lack the quality and the commitment to do so.
Last edited:
Did I say permanent ban, oh no, you blame Fergie lot are just permanent bellends.
1. Ed/Glazzzers
2. Veteran players (13-16 era)
3. Mou
4. LvG
5. Ole/Moyes
Basically managers, the board, CEO men and players that let us down.
I don't particularly blame any player after 2016. Perhaps Pogba and DDG but that's it. The rest tried and/or were not good enough (I blame the bloke/s who signed them).
2. Veteran players (13-16 era)
3. Mou
4. LvG
5. Ole/Moyes
Basically managers, the board, CEO men and players that let us down.
I don't particularly blame any player after 2016. Perhaps Pogba and DDG but that's it. The rest tried and/or were not good enough (I blame the bloke/s who signed them).
Right, not past May as manager himself. IIRC RR will also be very influential on the choice of next manager and no doubt the troublemakers won't like that either.
Blaming SAF? Blasphemy!
Ultimately the Glazers I’ve concluded because I’m certain if we had new ones who cared about the club being successful, we would be the best team in the World again
Ultimately, its down to the Board.
When a company is failing, and Man Utd is failing, you have to look at the people running it. If there's a customer service issue in your local branch of McD's you start asking questions of the management that's let that develop.
The fact we have a lazy and entitled squad, which thinks it can get away with briefing the media about being sad to leave training in the dark and having to google Rangnick, that's down to the people running the company. They're the ones who keep rewarding players with big contracts for doing sweet F.A. They're the ones who keep extending contracts of players who barely play, never mind make a contribution to the club. They're the ones who keep sacking coaches, even when they've just had new deals e.g., Ole, Mourinho, and sending the signal out that the players are more important than the men supposed to tell them what to do.
You reap what you sow, right? The people running Man Utd, including our illustrious owners who hold the Chairmanship of the Board between Joel and Avram Glazer, have allowed a toxic culture to develop at the club. Unless/until they are willing to do something about the toxicity they have let grow in the dressing room, we're going nowhere.
When a company is failing, and Man Utd is failing, you have to look at the people running it. If there's a customer service issue in your local branch of McD's you start asking questions of the management that's let that develop.
The fact we have a lazy and entitled squad, which thinks it can get away with briefing the media about being sad to leave training in the dark and having to google Rangnick, that's down to the people running the company. They're the ones who keep rewarding players with big contracts for doing sweet F.A. They're the ones who keep extending contracts of players who barely play, never mind make a contribution to the club. They're the ones who keep sacking coaches, even when they've just had new deals e.g., Ole, Mourinho, and sending the signal out that the players are more important than the men supposed to tell them what to do.
You reap what you sow, right? The people running Man Utd, including our illustrious owners who hold the Chairmanship of the Board between Joel and Avram Glazer, have allowed a toxic culture to develop at the club. Unless/until they are willing to do something about the toxicity they have let grow in the dressing room, we're going nowhere.
@DevaLish
Good thread and I agree with the list order...however I just see it being down to 1 thing and that's the owners for not being fit to manage the club. Their plans seem to be short term based, rather than medium to long term which ultimately is the vision of the club.
I also think if you're mentioning SAF, you need to combine Gill and SAF as they both left the same summer and both were the cornerstone of United at the time. The owners would have known this and should have planned better accordingly, be in change at board level and bring in DOF etc as you said.
Good thread and I agree with the list order...however I just see it being down to 1 thing and that's the owners for not being fit to manage the club. Their plans seem to be short term based, rather than medium to long term which ultimately is the vision of the club.
I also think if you're mentioning SAF, you need to combine Gill and SAF as they both left the same summer and both were the cornerstone of United at the time. The owners would have known this and should have planned better accordingly, be in change at board level and bring in DOF etc as you said.
I wouldn't say it's naive, we are the richest club in the world and we pay insane wages, especially when compared with clubs that actually win trophies.
You have to ask why, for example, Pogba is happy to stay at United, but only if we offer insane money. Ronaldo, supposedly loves the club, but we had to pay £510K per week to stop him joining our city rivals. Varane, supposedly wanted a new challenge, but looks to have simply chosen the highest offer. De Gea, held the club to ransom, but again has been content to waste his best years at a failing club in exchange for his massive salary. Sancho...hot prospect in high-demand...chose United...but on £350K a week.
I could go on really. Meanwhile, the likes of Mane (£110K) and Salah (£220K) have seen out their prime years earning less than Anthony Martial (£250K), but secure in the knowledge that they are actually part of a successful side.
It's a somewhat simplistic way of looking at it, but I definitely think that joining/staying at United in the last 6/7 years raises questions by definition. It's like when you see an incredibly attractive young lady with a withered old millionaire. Sure, there's probably one in ten that genuinely have love for their partner, then there are the other nine who are just milking them for everything they are worth.
When Abrahamovic bought Chelsea, they openly had a policy of trying to hijack our deals. I liked this because it was a great test of a players motivations. Rooney turned down Chelsea and had a glittering club career and is now a genuine United legend. Robben and Mikel went for the cash, and ultimately I'm not sorry about that in either case. Nowadays, roles have been reversed. Players join Liverpool or City to win trophies, and United because they can maximise their salary and platform.
I have sussed the real reason we have been shitty for so long.
@Spoony has not brought the Gods out in the match day threads in yonks.
@Spoony has not brought the Gods out in the match day threads in yonks.
Yes agree with this. The wages are so bloated that the players are mainly picked regardless how they play, but to justify the high salary. We were the only team in for Sancho, did we really need to offer a 21 year old second highest salary at that time for example? There is no incentive to give 100% every game as they are already getting the reward regardless
The board must take primary responsibility of this mess. It’s not like they haven’t been provided funding by the owners as much as I’m not a fan of the Glazers. It’s been mismanagement at the top for years at all levels of the club, most glaringly at the top of the pyramid in the boardroom and executive offices. Let’s hope Arnold can have a positive impact after the Woodward years.
Totally agree.
The reason the squad needed improving after SAF left (despite winning the league with that squad) is because he had to save money to clear the debt the Glazers had lumped onto the club. Ie replacing Ronaldo with Valencia.
The type of debt they put on the club from 2005 put the club at great risk, we were lucky SAF kept winning without spending too much to clear that dangerous debt.
I find it hard to look beyond Woodward, he was CEO and the owners trusted him. What he did beyond that was just shambolic. He didn't need to make himself De facto DOF and after the failure of the early years he didn't need to rush the decision to make Ole permanent.
He might not know a lot about football but he knows business and it's in business that he failed. Organizing the club was his responsibility. I'd understand the 2013-2018 period, even though five seasons is a hell lot of time to improve but the period after Mourinho is unforgivable.
One would say then, we had escape inevitable post-Fergie hangover with minor bruises and we just needed to stabilize after the Mourinho implosion. Ole came in and within two months we had seen enough to make him permanent? Now he has left us with overpaid Prima Donas in revolt because a new manager asked them to run more?
If Woodward had done what he promised after Mourinho we wouldn't be in this mess. He should have brought in RR as DOF, charged him with bringing a coach that will lead a proper rebuild and trimming the wage bill to more manageable levels. Instead he played on fan sentimentality to retain power and we are abck where we started. Even Arsenal look like they can overtake us.
He might not know a lot about football but he knows business and it's in business that he failed. Organizing the club was his responsibility. I'd understand the 2013-2018 period, even though five seasons is a hell lot of time to improve but the period after Mourinho is unforgivable.
One would say then, we had escape inevitable post-Fergie hangover with minor bruises and we just needed to stabilize after the Mourinho implosion. Ole came in and within two months we had seen enough to make him permanent? Now he has left us with overpaid Prima Donas in revolt because a new manager asked them to run more?
If Woodward had done what he promised after Mourinho we wouldn't be in this mess. He should have brought in RR as DOF, charged him with bringing a coach that will lead a proper rebuild and trimming the wage bill to more manageable levels. Instead he played on fan sentimentality to retain power and we are abck where we started. Even Arsenal look like they can overtake us.
Rangnick 
I see a lot of arguments in here that Fergie is partly to blame and others argueing he isn’t to blame. I agree with both arguments.
Ferguson is definitely partly to blame as in he has influenced terrible decisions driven by sentiment. However, the buck stops with the owners because a retired legend with health problems should never ever be put into such a vital decision making role. They should have their own expertise and be able to transition Man Utd from the past to the future without relying on Ferguson.
Ferguson is definitely partly to blame as in he has influenced terrible decisions driven by sentiment. However, the buck stops with the owners because a retired legend with health problems should never ever be put into such a vital decision making role. They should have their own expertise and be able to transition Man Utd from the past to the future without relying on Ferguson.
Can't blame Rangnick for this for sure. The issue with the club has been that whenever we change managers, the new manager's play style is drastically different from the previous one's. So, expecting the new manager to just come in and not need a "transition" period is senseless. Add to that, we give our managers too much autonomy in terms of recruitment. Look at LVG's transfers - The abject failure of the club in those 2 summer windows and lack of any clear plan with what they were going for sums up the chaos this club has been.
Similarly, blaming SAF is wrong as well, atleast for the items you've listed. He retired 8.5 years ago, and we've spent a billion post that. Surely, we cant keep going on about "He left an ageing squad". The lack of structure should have been on the board and owners as well - At the end of the day, SAF was an employee of the club who could have resigned or left at any time. With his age, it was obvious that the end was near. If the club isn't prepared for that, that's on the club not the employee. All one can blame him for is having a level of influence at the club - but the guy is the most successful manager of all time. Him having influence could actually be used in the club's favour. Listen to what he thinks, what can be done to solve the mess and while no one is asking you to follow it word to word, but surely you'll learn something in his company
SAF left a squad that was about to collapse but LvG alone had enough time and resources to sort that.
Of all the post Fergie managers he did the most damage. A truly shocking record in the transfer market. Set us back years. Then Mourinho came in and gave him a run for his money.
Ultimately the board got the wrong managers in. It's on them.
Of all the post Fergie managers he did the most damage. A truly shocking record in the transfer market. Set us back years. Then Mourinho came in and gave him a run for his money.
Ultimately the board got the wrong managers in. It's on them.
All fair.
On the bolded, I hope Ralf is the start of this weeding out. Will be a long and painful process though. I don't know if most United fans have any more patience left. But we will need it.
Rangnick is number 8 on the list after just a few weeks into the job but folks like Ole don't even get a mention! Hilarious.
SAF is an 80 yo man probably still recovering from his stroke yet some on here think he he is spending 15 hour days pulling all the strings like some Machiavellian despot.
While he has a figurehead influence I would be astonished if he even the slightest input on the day to day or any decision making.
This is all nonsense
While he has a figurehead influence I would be astonished if he even the slightest input on the day to day or any decision making.
This is all nonsense
Sorry but I have to call out that what you just said is just wrong. LVG and Mourinho both did not get the players that they wanted. For you to put the sole blame on them for transfers, I think that’s just not accurate.
This is on record that the board couldn’t deliver their first or even second choice targets. It is also a fact that we have a transfer committee which includes our head scout and no manager has sole control over transfers.
I also disagree with you that the club have done good with transfers under Ole, they spent half a billion pounds! Of course, there will be improvement when you spend that much. Can we say that it was all used wisely though? Some could argue we have regressed, Mourinho and LVG won cups with far less resources than Ole.
Last edited:
You don't have to apologise for disagreeing, it's what the forum is about.
I've never agreed with LvG or Mourinho not being responsible for their transfers. No manager gets their first choice every time but that's no reason to be outright awful in your choice of incomings.
The sheer number of useless players those two(and yes the club) lumbered us with is crazy. Taken years to move them on amd the job still isn't done.
I didn't mention anything about transfers under Ole. Think you've got me mixed up with someone else.
Last edited:
Thank you for this. I have been trying to say this for ages, but it has come across as if I hate SAF because I wasn't able to quite explain it the way you have and so succinctly too. I've made myself some online enemies and I didn't want to do that.
(Why no 'Like' button on the cafe!)
Our general "family" policy is to blame. Our club is run (and fans adopted that) like some division 5 local club. We are charity organisation. Giving new contracts to players just because they are "our" boys and not selling players until they ask for transfer.
We just need to be ruthless like other top clubs are. Other top clubs don't care are you academy player or long serving player. If you are good you stay, if not...bye bye
We just need to be ruthless like other top clubs are. Other top clubs don't care are you academy player or long serving player. If you are good you stay, if not...bye bye
As said in the initial post I made a list of people who deserve to be blamed with Rangnick and SAF being among the least to blame.
I agree fully with what you've said about Rangnick. However when a manager fails its usually the fault of both the manager and the board. The manager should acknowledge that this squad is not built around gegenpressing and he should adapt to it. That's something any manager should do to succeed but its more important for a transitional manager whose there simply to stir the ship in the right direction.
I blamed SAF on a number of small but significant issues which include not making sure that the club can live without him. He left United with an ageing squad that needed some serious rebuild and a football structure that is, quite frankly, outdated. Don't take me wrong the board should have done better then they did. However let's not kid ourselves that things were great before or that SAF doesn't still hold a certain level of influence at the club. The guy still hold an office at United and is still consulted on a regular basis.
The current situation is a culmination of poor decisions by the owners and the board. The board, in various forms , are only interested in keeping a flow of money from the commercial side of the business to keep the owners happy. David Gill leaving was a massive blow. I suspect he wouldn’t take any of the stuff being proposed after SAF left starting with the Moyes appointment. Moyes delayed staring at United for a month, can’t remember why. The appointment of managers and transfer dealings has been poorly handled. I mean, in what other job would an employer pay for a manager to live in an Hotel for two and a bit years. Their have been panic transfer buys and managerial appointments and the players have been allowed to gain too much influence. The owners won’t change whilst they can still cash in on MUFC money cow and they won’t appoint a board that would sweep away the dross.
It starts at the top, it always starts at the top and it has trickled all the way down.
SAF success certainly hid the incompetence that was running the show though, unfortunately in the past 9 years we've started to see the unfolding disaster that is Manchester United's management rear its ugly head.
I also feel that, much as SAF had a big involvement/say in his eventual successor, the great man felt United shouldn't completely come apart at the seams if Moyes, as it unfortunately turned out, wasn't a success.
Now, fans can rightly point out that the change of backroom staff wasn't the greatest idea Moyes had when he initially took over but you must also question why such a change threw Manchester United in such disarray.
We've seen countless big teams have similar moments yet they tend to get things sorted within a year before they're back to their usual successful selves.
We completely fell apart.
SAF success certainly hid the incompetence that was running the show though, unfortunately in the past 9 years we've started to see the unfolding disaster that is Manchester United's management rear its ugly head.
I also feel that, much as SAF had a big involvement/say in his eventual successor, the great man felt United shouldn't completely come apart at the seams if Moyes, as it unfortunately turned out, wasn't a success.
Now, fans can rightly point out that the change of backroom staff wasn't the greatest idea Moyes had when he initially took over but you must also question why such a change threw Manchester United in such disarray.
We've seen countless big teams have similar moments yet they tend to get things sorted within a year before they're back to their usual successful selves.
We completely fell apart.
Last edited:
I agree, but the point about manager altering their style is easier said than done. I think every manager, no matter how good they are, how well they're rated have a dream play style - how they imagine their team to play. And they mostly are comfortable in making the team play that way. Like, with Pep you know the kind of football you'd get eventually irrespective of the team he's coaching - Barcelona or Plymouth. Klopp - similar thing. These guys have invested countless hours perfecting that and to ask them to create a perfect tactic for the players available is slightly too demanding. Of course you want that to happen, but how often does it happen? It mostly is some sort of the players and manager meeting somewhere in the middle and either the manager gets time to make the side how he imagines the team to be or the manager gets sacked.
Re: Ferguson, No one denies the side left behind was on its last legs. However, the football structure bit is on the board. No one will take steps that undermine their authority, least of all someone like SAF. And I do agree, he has a bit too much influence at the club for his role, think Ronaldo was forced down the throat by him, and I genuinely believe RR and Ole hesitated n dropping him after that Everton clip, because it invites unnecessary pressure.
You're right to an extent. Sure, a young manager would struggle to change his style. However you'd expect more from a manager whose been around for ages. SAF for example adapted to the squad he had. His last squad was built on a cynical and rather defensive style of football which contrasts greatly to the breath taking and creative style used by the treble winning side.
Regarding SAF, well, he was Manchester United or to be more specific, the football side of Manchester United. SAF could rescind his resignation letter in the eleventh hour making the club look like fools in front of a manager who was set to be signed as his replacement or go toe to toe against the club's major shareholders and win. Someone like him simply refused to have overheads which is fair enough considering his talent and experience. However, surely, he must have noticed that his time was close to an end and that the responsible way to leave the club was to have everything set for the next manager to come in and succeed. That means a top sporting director, a DOF, and a competitive squad.
Bang on. I think this thread needs to die the slow death it deserves along with the bellends blaming Sir Alex.
I wonder if SAF himself is surprised by the clubs direction since he retired.
I do agree with your assessment of the players I just find it difficult to give most blame the managers. Here are some quotes from Van Gaal that I think helps put into perspective how much blame they should receive.
Van Gaal told Voetbal International: 'Manchester United did not have the qualities to become champions and had an outdated selection with 10 players over 30, five over 35.
'So I told them I was going to rejuvenate and which players should come. I didn't get one of those.
'Then you end up in a different segment and as a coach you have to push your boundaries. You don't expect that at the richest club in the world.
'A turnover of £600m and can't buy the players you need. You should buy number one and not number seven.’’
He is saying they got him 7th choice targets, I am sure just like Mourinho that they wanted world class players or talents. I am assuming that they were told that it’s either these players or nothing. In that respect then I do agree that they are guilty of not caring about the clubs money. They should receive a lot of blame for accepting players they didn’t want.
Last edited:
Glazers > Woodward > Board.
I get your point, but how many experienced managers have multiple playing philosophies. If we sign ETH or Poch tomorrow, we know exactly the kind of football they will play. How many managers, experienced or not, change their play style? SAF changed assistants and I think they had all the autonomy to plan the game as long as it met certain criteria SAF set,
Again, that's on the club. Let's say you're an indespensible part of your company. If the company hsa placed all the trust in you, they know you're close to resigning/unhappy/close to retiring, and still have no one to shadow you, learn from you, understand what makes the machinery tick, that's on the company, not you. And I think towards the end of his tenure, surely SAF wouldn't have minded the club hiring a DoF. The fact that the club hired one after 8 years from his retirement shows that the board had no idea how to keep the continuity going
"Debt is the road to ruin" David Gill famously said pre the Glazer takeover in 05.
The chickens are coming home to roost I'm afraid guys and we haven't hit rock bottom just yet. Debt still huge, stadium rotting, squad at war with each other and despite spending over a billion we can't pass a football.
Have a seriously nasty feeling we are going to sink to new depths for next season too. I think we are going to finish 7th and qualify for the Conference League so buckle up. Hahahaha.
The chickens are coming home to roost I'm afraid guys and we haven't hit rock bottom just yet. Debt still huge, stadium rotting, squad at war with each other and despite spending over a billion we can't pass a football.
Have a seriously nasty feeling we are going to sink to new depths for next season too. I think we are going to finish 7th and qualify for the Conference League so buckle up. Hahahaha.
Generally - board, of course.
But right now ball is in Rangnick's court. He is the manager, he needs to start being decisive. I can understand t hat coming in he wanted to take it easy, so he wouldn't cause too many problems, but that didn't work anyway and his has mutiny on his hands. Time to act.
Very first thing he needs to do is to remove Maguire from captainship. Harry is clearly completely incapable of leadership. He was never able to gel the dressing room but the fact itself that the dressing room is so divided is proof in itself that he has failed. Preventing such mess is literally captain's job, so whether you like him or hate him, obviously he failed. So he needs to step down, there is no other logical choice. I don't know who should replace him. Normally, when you have GOAT Ronaldo in squad, it should obviously be him, but considering already divided squad, I would probably give the armband to De Gea. After Ronaldo, De Gea is the most decorated player, absolute legend of the club, clear leader, and best player this season.
Once i see Maguire removed as captain I will believe that Rangnick has what it takes, otherwise he is coming off a spineless and indecisive. Time for playing nice is gone.
But right now ball is in Rangnick's court. He is the manager, he needs to start being decisive. I can understand t hat coming in he wanted to take it easy, so he wouldn't cause too many problems, but that didn't work anyway and his has mutiny on his hands. Time to act.
Very first thing he needs to do is to remove Maguire from captainship. Harry is clearly completely incapable of leadership. He was never able to gel the dressing room but the fact itself that the dressing room is so divided is proof in itself that he has failed. Preventing such mess is literally captain's job, so whether you like him or hate him, obviously he failed. So he needs to step down, there is no other logical choice. I don't know who should replace him. Normally, when you have GOAT Ronaldo in squad, it should obviously be him, but considering already divided squad, I would probably give the armband to De Gea. After Ronaldo, De Gea is the most decorated player, absolute legend of the club, clear leader, and best player this season.
Once i see Maguire removed as captain I will believe that Rangnick has what it takes, otherwise he is coming off a spineless and indecisive. Time for playing nice is gone.
Yes if there is any division in the dressing room, then the Captain has failed. I see Ronaldo as the only option for now because only he has the stature in the club to do so. I do not think DeGea has it to be the captain.
Subbing your captain when he is gassed out is not an issue. Or resting him is no issue too. We had Robbo as club captain in his last year and he hardly played and SAF to a lot of people's dismay even dropped him from the FA Cup Final squad(I feel he should not have done it).