the board chose those those managers + they gave them carte blanched to do whatever they want
Who is to blame? - Super thread
- Thread starter devilish
- Start date
A soul-searching super thread exploring why United have gone belly up is entirely appropriate right now.
It is possible that we’re all overreacting, that but for social media most of us here wouldn’t be as angry as we are with the serial abysmal performances of the squad over the last eight years. Fair enough, but that we’ve been abysmal over the last eight years — and yes, I’m fully away that we landed second place last season — cannot be in dispute.
I’ll drop in various thoughts throughout the day rather than try to build these entire case for our beached whale condition in a single post.
It is possible that we’re all overreacting, that but for social media most of us here wouldn’t be as angry as we are with the serial abysmal performances of the squad over the last eight years. Fair enough, but that we’ve been abysmal over the last eight years — and yes, I’m fully away that we landed second place last season — cannot be in dispute.
I’ll drop in various thoughts throughout the day rather than try to build these entire case for our beached whale condition in a single post.
Ultimately it's board and owners fault, coupled with the Premier League/FA for allowing such a takeover to occur in the first place.
The Disneyland of football has been devoid of any real control for so long and not learning from their mistakes it keeps making. The way the club has been run since SAF and Gill left has been nothing short of criminal, and yes the fact they were allowed to saddle us with so much debt in the meantime, any other club(company) would have folded by now, the incompetence is staggering. I think us fans should have sued the football authorities for ratifying such a takeover personally.
At the start of the season, there was so much optimism, with what we thought were world class signings in Varane & Sancho. Most of us got a little bit giddy over Ronaldo, and as fans who can blame us but its a deal they shouldn't have done. The RedCafe was almost unanimous in their opinion Varane & Sancho were real improvements, and with our young attacking talent especially Greenwood and with Cavani signing for another year, we dared to believe we might even come close this year to the title.
The season started off okay and Greenwood was firing, then the opportunity to sign Ronaldo came along, and feck the project (that actually looks like it could get us close, for the first time in 8 years), but as always, the commercial side of the business makes the decisions in this club, no one or thing else matters apart from money. I dont blame Ronaldo, I think he is incredible as an individual for his age, but the team can't play high pressing attacking football with him in the team, and the players are not suited to Rangnick's 4-2-2-2 - it's a mess again.
The players are falling out behind the scene's we are led to believe, and you can see why, so the harmony that Ole brought to the squad post-Jose looks to have gone, and we are back to square one. Ole's period in charge, should have lay the foundations for a more experienced manager/coach to come in and adopt world class tactics and motivation in a good group of players, in order for the football team to take the next step. The owners do not learn.
They have spent money, our money, but only after SAF left the club, knowing that if they didn't their asset would de-value without investment. Let's be frank though, the investment is not out of their own pockets is it!
The other two signings haven't yet improved us either, Varane looks good but is very injury prone and we have enough of those players over the years, and Sancho has all the great close control in the world, but the fecker can't run. I must admit I never really watched him, but for all his hype I thought we were signing a special player, I dont see it.
It feels like the club is run based on reaction from fan's and social media trending, it's hard to imagine now, but more than half of the club's social media activities, were banned before SAF left the building, ever asked yourself why? Ever heard of the saying, the blind leading the partially sighted, that's fan and media reaction leading the board who are leading us back to the promised land. It's turning into a joke of a club.
Get a work class manager, and coach set up in asap, weed out the players who dont want to achieve or be here, and build for the future. We cant win any title for the next 3-4 years without going through this process.
P.S. Stop putting players on ridiculous contracts, because you can't shift them, and they get too much too soon. You have to earn your way to be successful, there is no other way for us to be successful, that comes with basic principals - keep it as much about the club and the football, more than the money - you dumb fecks.
The Disneyland of football has been devoid of any real control for so long and not learning from their mistakes it keeps making. The way the club has been run since SAF and Gill left has been nothing short of criminal, and yes the fact they were allowed to saddle us with so much debt in the meantime, any other club(company) would have folded by now, the incompetence is staggering. I think us fans should have sued the football authorities for ratifying such a takeover personally.
At the start of the season, there was so much optimism, with what we thought were world class signings in Varane & Sancho. Most of us got a little bit giddy over Ronaldo, and as fans who can blame us but its a deal they shouldn't have done. The RedCafe was almost unanimous in their opinion Varane & Sancho were real improvements, and with our young attacking talent especially Greenwood and with Cavani signing for another year, we dared to believe we might even come close this year to the title.
The season started off okay and Greenwood was firing, then the opportunity to sign Ronaldo came along, and feck the project (that actually looks like it could get us close, for the first time in 8 years), but as always, the commercial side of the business makes the decisions in this club, no one or thing else matters apart from money. I dont blame Ronaldo, I think he is incredible as an individual for his age, but the team can't play high pressing attacking football with him in the team, and the players are not suited to Rangnick's 4-2-2-2 - it's a mess again.
The players are falling out behind the scene's we are led to believe, and you can see why, so the harmony that Ole brought to the squad post-Jose looks to have gone, and we are back to square one. Ole's period in charge, should have lay the foundations for a more experienced manager/coach to come in and adopt world class tactics and motivation in a good group of players, in order for the football team to take the next step. The owners do not learn.
They have spent money, our money, but only after SAF left the club, knowing that if they didn't their asset would de-value without investment. Let's be frank though, the investment is not out of their own pockets is it!
The other two signings haven't yet improved us either, Varane looks good but is very injury prone and we have enough of those players over the years, and Sancho has all the great close control in the world, but the fecker can't run. I must admit I never really watched him, but for all his hype I thought we were signing a special player, I dont see it.
It feels like the club is run based on reaction from fan's and social media trending, it's hard to imagine now, but more than half of the club's social media activities, were banned before SAF left the building, ever asked yourself why? Ever heard of the saying, the blind leading the partially sighted, that's fan and media reaction leading the board who are leading us back to the promised land. It's turning into a joke of a club.
Get a work class manager, and coach set up in asap, weed out the players who dont want to achieve or be here, and build for the future. We cant win any title for the next 3-4 years without going through this process.
P.S. Stop putting players on ridiculous contracts, because you can't shift them, and they get too much too soon. You have to earn your way to be successful, there is no other way for us to be successful, that comes with basic principals - keep it as much about the club and the football, more than the money - you dumb fecks.
This. The owner spent over a billion in net transfer fee alone for the past 10 years, let alone sign on fee, agent fee and wages. However they are responsible for the appointment of Woodward though, but definitely it is Woodward to me.
How many of these threads are we going to have over the years?
Every loss is met with a systematic onslaught on every individual player, the Glazers, Woodward, the manager, abuse of Oil teams and so on.
A novel thread would be...who ISN'T to blame.
Bet it'd be shorter!
Every loss is met with a systematic onslaught on every individual player, the Glazers, Woodward, the manager, abuse of Oil teams and so on.
A novel thread would be...who ISN'T to blame.
Bet it'd be shorter!
Leave SAF out of this. I wish I could push the blame of my under performance at my job to my predecessor who left 9 years ago.
Ed had enough time to implement any changes or appoint the right person to modernize the club structure but he failed. It's fecking 9 years.
Ed had enough time to implement any changes or appoint the right person to modernize the club structure but he failed. It's fecking 9 years.
Agree with this. The fact he managed to maintain success is astonishing. On average per season under the Glazers he also spent less than Ole, Mourinho and van Gaal who can’t even use the excuse of not being backed by the Glazers.
On top of that he was ridiculed for saying “no value in the market” when he would refuse to spend stupid amounts on average players. Since he left we’ve been taken to the cleaners by numerous clubs with our last manager in particular paying idiotic amounts for players who now need replacing.
Is this thread super? I'm not sure.
Woodward all day long. He has presided over awful management appointments, terrible recruitment and shambolic contract negotiations. He has turned Utd from the biggest club in England into also rans. The guy is detached from reality. Leaks yesterday saying he feels he has one big football job left in him. What club in their right mind would appoint him? I don't care how good a "mergers and acquisitions man" he is. He has been at the helm during a decade of decline for the club. Nobody comes close to him when it comes to apportioning blame.
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Agreed.
Jesus when I said it was like a cult I didn't even think it was this bad. My days...
Why should we not be allowed to say anything against SAF?
He obviously still wields influence behind the scenes as evidenced by the signing of Ronaldo. We had this problem before with Sir Matt hanging around, we've obviously not learned anything from that.
IMO, Sir Matt was the one who built the reputation of United, not SAF.
I can't entertain a "who's to blame" list that doesn't include Boris.
1-Board had no plans after SAF although it seeks they are finally trying to put one.
2- I blame Ole who seemed to me spoiled these players more than they ever deserve.
2- I blame Ole who seemed to me spoiled these players more than they ever deserve.
Such a bollox. Is SAF a god that cannot do any wrong ? This is cult like behaviour. Maybe him signing duds like Bebe, Manucho and friends also a right move too.He's a human after all. Him hiring Moyes was already a mistake in the first place.
Moves was not 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice.
Just when we were starting to make some progress after 8 years last year, we sign Ronaldo which blows all plans out the water. We now find ourselves with a crazy scientist Coach with a highly unusual formation yet without the players to implement it. So in the space of 5 months, we have self imploded from things starting to look bright in august 2021 to this sad hole now.
The biggest issue was having a chief executive, seemingly with an absolutely huge ego, who wanted to run things of which he had minimal knowledge rather than sticking to the areas that he was good at and putting the right people and structures in place for the areas for which he lacked the expertise. It meant he made poor managerial appointments and then seemed enthralled by them doing very little (telling the press that Van Gaal was a genius whose contract we wanted to extend midway through his second season, days before Wolfsburg knocked us out of the Champions League and in the early part of an 8 game winless run) because it seemed impressive to someone who was clueless.
Add that to us not having the right people in place to deal with recruitment and an obsession with social media engagement and the brand that meant that signings weren't always made for the right reasons (Ronaldo is a prime example of someone who was bought because it would be embarrassing if he went to City and he would really appeal to potential sponsors and drive content online rather than it in anyway making sense to buy the cherry when we hadn't finished constructing the cake) and players contracts continually being renewed to protect their accounting value and you end up with a talented but bloated and unhappy squad where players cost more and earn more than they would at clubs run sensibly.
I don't think it's irretrievable though, although my expectations are that the club will find a way to get it wrong and the wait for us to challenge for the league again is going to be a long one. United are a huge club and it seems that Richard Arnold is going to be more willing to empower people with more knowledge of the football side of things and stick to the commercial aspect. The next few months are going to be rough, we've had 3 years of a manager whose CV was success at Molde years before and a disastrous spell at Cardiff and now have a guy who has barely coached in the last decade and whose biggest ever success is the German Cup, these aren't the types of managers that are going to make top level players energised or excited to go to work and the season now is just about getting to the end and making the right decisions for next season. If we make the right appointment in the summer (I believe that to be Ten Hag) and Rangnick is trusted to help rebuild the football club alongside Murtough and Fletcher then things can start to turn around.
Add that to us not having the right people in place to deal with recruitment and an obsession with social media engagement and the brand that meant that signings weren't always made for the right reasons (Ronaldo is a prime example of someone who was bought because it would be embarrassing if he went to City and he would really appeal to potential sponsors and drive content online rather than it in anyway making sense to buy the cherry when we hadn't finished constructing the cake) and players contracts continually being renewed to protect their accounting value and you end up with a talented but bloated and unhappy squad where players cost more and earn more than they would at clubs run sensibly.
I don't think it's irretrievable though, although my expectations are that the club will find a way to get it wrong and the wait for us to challenge for the league again is going to be a long one. United are a huge club and it seems that Richard Arnold is going to be more willing to empower people with more knowledge of the football side of things and stick to the commercial aspect. The next few months are going to be rough, we've had 3 years of a manager whose CV was success at Molde years before and a disastrous spell at Cardiff and now have a guy who has barely coached in the last decade and whose biggest ever success is the German Cup, these aren't the types of managers that are going to make top level players energised or excited to go to work and the season now is just about getting to the end and making the right decisions for next season. If we make the right appointment in the summer (I believe that to be Ten Hag) and Rangnick is trusted to help rebuild the football club alongside Murtough and Fletcher then things can start to turn around.
Thing looked like total shit on August. We just lost the Europa final with one of the most shameful display I have ever seen from United team. The rot had started before this season. People really thought we were playing like prime Barca before Ronaldo came.
1. The ;Board
2. The Owners
3. The Players
It's been a while, we're on our, what number again, manager in 10 years? The board carries the can for that, 6 year contract for Moyes, extend Jose and then sack him, follow that up with appointing a totally inexperienced manager, and then replace him with a 6 month interim manager who hasn't managed in two years and who has never won anything of note.... then, shocked face, that doesn't work?
Given our horrific record appointing managers, the owners should have stepped in and asked exactly WTF the board were doing years ago, but that would require them to give any level of feck about on field success vs commercials success.
All that said, the players, good god where to start, give them all contracts so big no one will ever want them, then combine it with the above and only then realise, we need to get rid of most of them.
It's a shitshow, from top to bottom, but hey, we bring in a ton of commercial revenue.
2. The Owners
3. The Players
It's been a while, we're on our, what number again, manager in 10 years? The board carries the can for that, 6 year contract for Moyes, extend Jose and then sack him, follow that up with appointing a totally inexperienced manager, and then replace him with a 6 month interim manager who hasn't managed in two years and who has never won anything of note.... then, shocked face, that doesn't work?
Given our horrific record appointing managers, the owners should have stepped in and asked exactly WTF the board were doing years ago, but that would require them to give any level of feck about on field success vs commercials success.
All that said, the players, good god where to start, give them all contracts so big no one will ever want them, then combine it with the above and only then realise, we need to get rid of most of them.
It's a shitshow, from top to bottom, but hey, we bring in a ton of commercial revenue.
The fans for putting up with it so long. Cheering players who clearly don't care about winning anywhere near as much as they do their wages and social standing.
There's a thread on here about which United player do you dislike the most or least and in all honestly I an finding it increasingly difficult to like any of our players.
I find I have more respect for the players that leave this mess than I do for the ones that stay now as I don't trust their motives for staying.
I don't really judge Ronaldo or Varone just yet as they are not here long but they must know just how far this club has fallen and how far we are from ever challenging the top.
The others though that have been here longer and just show no desire to do anything other than going through the motions on the pitch and pointing the finger at everyone else off the pitch other than themselves.
It just sickens me sometimes how far we have fallen and I don't see any way back with the players we have
There's a thread on here about which United player do you dislike the most or least and in all honestly I an finding it increasingly difficult to like any of our players.
I find I have more respect for the players that leave this mess than I do for the ones that stay now as I don't trust their motives for staying.
I don't really judge Ronaldo or Varone just yet as they are not here long but they must know just how far this club has fallen and how far we are from ever challenging the top.
The others though that have been here longer and just show no desire to do anything other than going through the motions on the pitch and pointing the finger at everyone else off the pitch other than themselves.
It just sickens me sometimes how far we have fallen and I don't see any way back with the players we have
Looks like Rashford the more I look at this forum.
The recruitment for picking inexperienced coaches and players that are not suited to the club. Then the players themselves for being selfish lazy fecks.
If only we had spent close to billion pounds and almost most money since his retirement.
Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Bayern, Madrid and few other clubs completely rebuilt their squads in last 5-8 years spending as much money or even less, it's hilarious that people think what we signed in 2007 had any impact on the state we are in today.
No, Moyes' way was toxic, the whole chips thing showed David Moyes' priorities - he was attempting to 'stamp his authority' by focusing on side issues and other matters that were more or less irrelevant. The man was completely unsuited for dealing with a squad of winners who may have been set in their ways but were professional enough to rally around a confident and qualified manager.
David Moyes was nothing of the sort. He also was hopelessly enmeshed in the mindset of somebody who did not know how to use the expertise around him.
As Sir Alex's choice he was gifted the job on a platinum plate but felt he had to go his own way to prove himself. We all know how that ended up - wouldn't use the resources he had correctly, got rid of experience to bring in Everton staff who had won zilch with him - although Phil Nev was a good choice as an ex United player - tried to compensate for his inability to work within the structure of a huge club by proposing 'strategies' such as endless crosses in the game which was contrary to United's passing style, etc etc.
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It seems people really want Fergie to prepare the club forever. It is not his job to select the next manager or recruit after his retirement. Yes, he could give a piece of advice but ultimately the club management has to answer for all the failures.
Our squad is lazy so lets have a manager that will make sure to implement lazy tactics. Doesnt make sense to me. Its a highly competitive game.
While your point is definitely valid I can't follow the conclusion to blame Rangnick for it.
Shouldn't the blame be addressed towards the lazy and entitled players and the board which should be aware of these issues and appoint managers accordingly.
Wrote this in another thread but probably more relevant here.
The seasons is a write off. A shame as we’ve wasted Ronaldo but oh well. It’s clear there’s poison in the camp. They’ve been on holiday for 10 years it seems and now a new manager wants to up the training they’re kicking off. There’s a huge attitude problem.
We need to clear out the bad attitude. I’d make an example of the ring leader and get rid in January. Hopefully the rest will then behave. But there’s deep lying issues in the camp. I know what it is though. It’s from above. The clubs motives have been commercial so we’ve treated the players like celebrities and divas rather than work horses. We’ve pushed them onto noodle campaigns rather than doing laps around the ground.
Rangnick is the right appointment if he is to stay upstairs and change the motives of the club. Hopefully we persist.
The seasons is a write off. A shame as we’ve wasted Ronaldo but oh well. It’s clear there’s poison in the camp. They’ve been on holiday for 10 years it seems and now a new manager wants to up the training they’re kicking off. There’s a huge attitude problem.
We need to clear out the bad attitude. I’d make an example of the ring leader and get rid in January. Hopefully the rest will then behave. But there’s deep lying issues in the camp. I know what it is though. It’s from above. The clubs motives have been commercial so we’ve treated the players like celebrities and divas rather than work horses. We’ve pushed them onto noodle campaigns rather than doing laps around the ground.
Rangnick is the right appointment if he is to stay upstairs and change the motives of the club. Hopefully we persist.
Thank you. The amount of nonsense I hear thrown at Fergie is unreal. Possibly the GOAT but basically just a real good motivator? So disrespectful. As is the trend to blame him for issues of today.
All I constantly see is people hysterically throwing blame at different individuals with such knowing conviction and hate and it's part of the reason I find this place pretty shite now tbh.
Rangnick is part of the problem after 5 games but Jose and Moyes doesn’t make the list 
The Glazers are just living off Fergusons inheritance. They bought Utd at the right time when broadcasting money was about to go through the roof and the internet had just began to take off.
They know they need to get it right on the football pitch but the truth is they don’t know how. They have now squandered the inheritance, new fans will start drying up very soon too (anyone born in the last 15 years will question why they should support Utd as they won’t remember the glory days).
Richard Arnold will not have the money Woodward had (less sponsorship money, finishing outside top 4, no players with any value, High contracts and as you identified, a stadium that needs rebuilding).
The worrying thing is that with Newcastle and better managed clubs like Arsenal, Tottenham on the rise. We could become completely irrelevant very soon in footballing terms, some would argue we already are but I know it can get a lot worst yet.
Needs a poll.
The Board, Ed Woodward, Past managers, Ralf Ragnick, The Owners, The Players, The Fans.
All as options.
The Board, Ed Woodward, Past managers, Ralf Ragnick, The Owners, The Players, The Fans.
All as options.
Anyone read Hodgson’s balanced analysis? For me the culture that the Glazers have created at the club and their mismanagement of the football company continues. Hopefully they’ve identified that and RR has been brought in to rectify the issues over a period of time.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...room-and-board-must-back-him-says-roy-hodgson
https://www.skysports.com/football/...room-and-board-must-back-him-says-roy-hodgson
I'm sorry but I have to disagree and calling for a permanent ban for the many many people who share this view (and it is steadily growing as Utd's problems continue) is ridiculous and an attack on free speech. Let's work backwards through your post: '....it’s the GLAZERS and only them that are the problem.' but wasn't SAF partly responsible for the Glazers in the first place ? and even if not, he hasn't to my knowledge ever spoken out against them - and why would he whilst he gets £ millions a year in his Club Ambassadors role... when Pep leaves City or Klopp moves on from Liverpool, will either of those clubs keep them on the payroll for even just one more day? NO, so why do Utd. do it? It wasn't as if Fergie was badly remunerated whilst he was the Utd. manager - he was consistently the top earning manager in the league year after year.
Re: 'Piss off to anyone who’s gullible enough to believe that he’s still leading any decisions at the club.' well I'm not gullible and its widely accepted that he was a key motivating factor in the return of Ronaldo - which isn't working out too well in my opinion. He also practically forced Ole to make Ronaldo the 1st name on the team sheet following comments made after the Everton game. Do you not agree? You can't say: oh Ole should have been stronger and done his own thing AND at the same time say 'He’s a figurehead and a legend enjoying his retirement' with no influence over things going on at the club. Both can't be right. Plus look what happened to Moyes who did try to do his own thing and bring in his own people, look how well that worked out... (plus SAF set Moyes up to fail by leaving the club in the state he did - yes you can say as Champions, but it was a weird season and RVP was just winning games on his own.) Consider things now, look at Moyes & West Ham now - above Utd. in the table and without spending billions.
You can blame both if one caused the other - google Rock of Gibraltar racehorse dispute.
Find it very odd putting any blame in Ferguson. Managers take over clubs all the time in far, far worse situations. Utd had just finished as champions..
The blame lies due to a litany of errors following his retirement which was all overseen by Woodward…. starting with the very 1st transfer window. It’s been mistake after mistake. And every summer fans still lap it up as we go after the next big star
The blame lies due to a litany of errors following his retirement which was all overseen by Woodward…. starting with the very 1st transfer window. It’s been mistake after mistake. And every summer fans still lap it up as we go after the next big star
Well that is one view, alternatively they could have stayed true to Man Utd.s history (they were never a club known for numerous management changes) and given Moyes the same amount of time Sir Alex was given, back in the late 1980s.
People can shout me down for saying that, but I doubt the club would be worse off than they are now, Moyes is afterall above Utd. in the current table & with less resources than he would have had at Old Trafford. How many transfer windows was the guy actually given?
People say, he messed up 'cos he changed the backroom staff.... but what if he had not done and been moderately successful: people would have said 'oh he's just a Scottish Manager with a similar background to Sir Alex, and he's only doing well because of the assitants he has around him'.
I don't need to Google it thanks. Life isn't a game of dominoes and one did not 'cause' the other. Its an absurdly simplistic take
So many different factors to blame from yankee leeching owners to incapable Toy Story puppets and failed previous regimes. Quite honestly right now I don't know how we even begin to fix this
I've seen lots of "blame the players" sentiment recently, but objectively measure the state of United's management over the past number of years to our rivals (Pep, Klopp, Poch, Conte, Tuchel etc) to ours. The gap is absurd and there is no way for the players to not feel that, especially over time.
what has he done again?