Why? Do every team pasting Leeds 5-0?
Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch
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Why? Do every team pasting Leeds 5-0?
Did he not play in a more detracted role his last season there?
We did beat them 5-1 with McFred to be fair..
The fact that a player has performed at a certain level for a team in the past does not guarantee he can perform at the same level for a different team. Especially in a different league.
Past results are not an indicator of future performance.
Or it could be that you rencognize the teams vulnerabilities with player X, Y and Z, and try player W in different positions in training week after week and sometimes in games, and every time your weak midfield become even weaker, and your unsuccraful team even less winning. I’m not saying I know it’s like this for a fact, but I can imagine being a coach having worked in elite football for twenty years (like De Boer, Solskjær, Van Gaal, Carrick, Rangnik)) and seeing this scenario before my eyes, and then hearing an armchair fan who never omce set foot on an elite pitch saying: ‘well, it’s so self evident that player W should play more games, that I can be entirely certain that all the coaches A, B, C, D and E are certifiable fools, in contrast to me’.
Tbh I’d probably hang up at that point.
Yes. You can still judge a player from against Leeds. McTom and Fred issue is they're not consistent.
Did he do well today?
Not sure where the arrogance is coming from. They'd completely demolish us.
Yes, he had a Sunday Roast and walked the dogs, no issues.
Yeah, this I’ve never understood. Even for 30 mins instead of a 2 min cameo. Fresh legs can be important.
Every time? He's played well whenever he's been used in the double pivot, the midfield certainly didn't become weaker. If he's played well on the pitch in that position then judgement should be based off of that foremost. He was a regular starter for Holland until he joined utd and, like most international coaches do, they've prioritised players that are playing regularly, so the lack of international game time since joining utd is understandable and shouldn't be used against him or his ability. Carrick was in charge for Chelsea, Arsenal and Atalanta so the lack of experimentation in his choices is completely fair enough. That leaves Solskjaer and Rangnick and I've already explained myself there. There's the argument of "we don't have a 6 so Van de Beek can't play in the sitting 2", if that's the case then the same can be said about Pogba, Fred and McTominay as they're all 8s with their own individual weaknesses. I'd say Van de Beek is actually probably the most all rounded midfielder out of them all, so it is insanity (or as I like to say, foolish) not to have given him a fair shot in a combination with one of Fred and McTominay at least once before freezing or loaning him out.
Im glad some people have woken up and seen DVB is a good player and was clearly frozen out at United for whatever reason when he is clearly miles ahead in ability than Scott and Fred yet they were always given chances amd DVB was left to rot.
It was a hypothetical example, Donny van de Beek’s name is not ‘player W’, it’s Donny van de Beek.
The truth about Donny van de Beek is that if he was head and shoulders more effective than Gregory Wijnaldum, Marten de Roon, Teun Koopmeiners, Davy Klaasen, Ryan Gravenberch or Guus Til, he’d probably have gotten some of their games in the Dutch midfield this season in spite of him not being a regular feature in Man Utd. If he haven’t showed Van Gaal enough to conclude that he’s above that level, he’s hardly shown any armchair fans enough to warrant them saying it’s foolish by a Man Utd coach not to play him more. The same goes for De Boer, he’d seen more of Van de Beek than us, he felt he could do without him even if the Dutch midfield was underwhelming. I’m not attacking Van de Beek here, I like his style and hope he’ll stay at United. I am defending people who have the opinion that there might be legitimate reasons why Fred and McTominay have consistently been picked ahead of VdB so far, from being called fools by self entitled experts who for instance has seen nothing of what happens in training matches every day.
I like the idea of playing Van de Beek as an 8 in a midfield three, but if Ralf Rangnik has sat down with video analyses of United games and trainings (as we know he did) and thought he wouldn’t have games for Donny ahead of Pogba, Bruno, Fred and McTominay in the PL this year, I’m not going to assume it’s a bad idea necessarily, but neither will I assume that you have to be an idiot or football ignoramus to evaluate that way.
wait, is this sarcasm?
Because I'm pretty sure Ajax will wipe the floor with us right now
Thank goodness Donny is at Everton. At least there is another league game to hold my interest this season apart from United.
We hammered a good few teams for 4-9 goals tbf
He did, he went from an attacking 8 to a 6 in some matches. But you have to remember that it's a 6 at Ajax. Not a true DM, more like an 8 with more defensive tasks
That's 100% false. LVG is not one to lie to the press and before he benched Donny he categorically said if Donny can't get game time, he won't pick him. They're clearly linked.
Besides, surely it's standard fare with international football that if you can't get a game at club level you're likely to lose your place (unless you're one of those rare certified talismans)?
It's a big reason why players push for game time, even to the point of seeking temporary loans far from home before international tournaments.
International games (and training camps) are few and far between, and the way players keep their match fitness up is by playing for their clubs. Managers for their part use club performances to rate players as that's where they play most.
based on what? being top of the eredivisie which accounts for nothing? Is this the same Ajax who could not even get past the quarters of the EUROPA LEAGUE and they are being hyped up like they are good? there is a fantasy arounds Ajax which is quite astounding. They are Lille level at best.
Current Ajax is like 4th best rated to win this years CL - after City, Bayern & PSG. They are just that highly rated.
it means nout mate. What is better about them to 6 months ago? they will probably crash out in the next round and then we can do this dance again next season with everyone hyping up a bunch of nothing
Liverpool would feck them up.
I'll just do bullet points:
- Ajax had to play their 3rd GK, an academy lad who's shit and was binned in the summer. He had a massive stinker.
- Tadic missed a pen in that game, which was rare at the time.
- Knock out competitions require some luck, even in the europa.
- demolished the French champions (funny that you mention Lille) in that same run.
- strengthened their squad compared to last season.
- Don't have the squad depth of an oil club or United, nor can they peak each season. Limited resources
Eredivisie is quite strong right now, as evidenced by the European success of other ED clubs. So yes being clear first on points with a massive goal difference is more impressive than you give it credit for.
But more importantly, Ajax completely mauled their CL group opponents (including Dortmund) this year. I'd say that's a good indicator. I don't know why you start with an open question and then leave the most obvious answer out.
Obviously, there's no guarantee with any signing but what other metric can you go off when signing a new player apart from their performances for their current team?
The truth is we simply don't know if DVB will be good enough for the premier League because he hasn't been given a chance yet.
I personally think he is more than good enough and will prove it, however, I may be wrong, we'll see.
What I do know however is our current midfielders, Fred, McTominay and Matic simply aren't good enough because they have been given chance after chance and just haven't performed at a high enough level for any consistent period of time.
The fact that a player is seriously underperforming on a weekly basis is normally an indicator that you may need to replace them and give someone else a chance.
Except at Utd of course were we persist with Fred and McTominay and then wonder why we are a mid-table side.
That's precisely why alot of people have got so wound up about the DVB situation, if our midfield was functioning anywhere near decent in the 1.5 seasons he was here then this would be a totally different conversation, but it simply hasn't.
Even if you didn't rate Donny at all, surely you would still have been curios to see what might have have happened if we was given a run in the team, there was nothing to lose.
How can you possibly say that though when he's literally been given about 3 starts this season (and got taken off at HT in one of them because AWB got sent off) and then got a handful of 5 minute cameos, it's not enough time for a central midfielder to establish themselves, nowhere near it.
It would be different if he was a young striker and you where throwing him on for 5 mins at the end when needing a goal but central midfielder is a totally different position where you need time to establish yourself.
If DVB had been given the same amount of game time and chances that Fred or McTominay have been given then I honestly think we would be in a much better position overall.
Van Gaal didn't pick him because of lack of match fitness.
He also said he couldnt pick certain midfielders because of match fitness when asked why he brought Gravenberch and Koopmeiners on and our midfield collapsed. He clearly meant VDB.
Donny played under de Boer in November 2020 in a similar midfield setup (De Jong as a lone 6) and played well vs Italy and Spain.
By the same token how can you possibly say we'd be in a much better position had we played VDB instead of Fred or McTominay? It seems you're happy to take scant evidence for certain assertions if it fits into your belief around the player!
My point was mainly around the training argument, you're saying (hypothetically) if he's rubbish in training it doesn't matter as long as he is great on matchday. I am saying that is provisionally true but also he has never actually been great in the totality of his United minutes so it seems rather moot in this instance.
Also, realistically, unless there is a good reason (such as a managed injury, think Ledley King or someone) most managers are process driven. They correlate their methods with training which then turns into performance, so it's kind of an unlikely event that you can be shite in training and earn a managers respect. Especially if you haven't got his trust to begin with, it wouldn't wash to be crap in training.
He’d played preseason games and looked quite fit at the point where Van Gaal picked his firs qualifying squad if I recall correctly?
Like I said, if he was head and shoulders above the collapsing colleagues, I think probably Van Gaal would have found space for him in some of those squads.
He played against Italy and Spain, yes. Okish is what I remember it as. They lost and drew? I think he played four full games out of 15 or 16 maybe under De Boer. He certainly didn’t nail down a starting berth with his performances in those games.
Which to repeat, is not really a slight on Donny, whom I, again, believe in, but is a retort for those few who declared coaches not playing Van de Beek as certifiably stupid.
No that was Solskjaer and Rangnick specifically, you're the one that brought Van Gaal and De Boer into it making it sound like that was my original point. As it's been said repeatedly, players who don't play for their club don't play for their national team either. Van Gaal is being Van Gaal leaving him out completely because he hasn't had any proper minutes for one and a half seasons.
tl;dr is VDB getting any minutes at Everton, and if so, how's he doing?
Liverpool should be higher than PSG on that list.
But Ajax is up there with the rest. They are not inferior to Chelsea, Real, or Inter.
While United was losing to YB and counting on Ronaldo's last-second winners to get past an injury-ravaged Atalanta, Ajax was establishing a 6/6 win record in their group.
Yes. He is getting some minutes. Good game against Leeds, but it is Leeds. Let's wait and see.
I really can't understand people who are oblivious to this. No, hold on, they are consistently average. McT pops up with a 8/10 game every 10 games maybe and everybody thinks the midfield problem is gone. Some games he can't even pass 5 metres without messing up. But he gets a free(r) pass since he's homegrown blah blah. I'm not shitting on McT and I wish he was more consistent at a higher level especially since he gets so many minutes. He's already 25 years old so hopefully it will only get better from here onwards.
Yeh. There are games where one of or both McFred were impressive. Fred was impressive in first 4-5 games under RR, then just back to average. McTom is more, like you said, once a while. Even within the game, he occasionally showed something that make you think he's class.
McT is decent with the ball at feet, he has showed it since his academy days where he played higher up the pitch. He's not a DM or holding midfielder, neither is he a midfielder who can dictate tempo. He's a box-to-box midfielder who could help load up in the penalty area, with some ball-winning skills. Fred is not a tempo dictator either. We do not have any midfielder at the club, perhaps bar Matic, who can dictate the pace of the game from the midfield position or deeper. Matic can't even last 75 mins each match.
This is on the club.
I cannot understand why Ole and Rangnick have refused to give VDB more time than they did, and highly unlikely we will ever know why. Not that he is the solution to our midfield troubles anyway. So we will never understand why he was purchased in the first place, and why he was barely played subsequently.
It'll be interesting to see how he does at Everton. When he was at Ajax I was surprised that he was so heavily linked with Real, and then even more surprised when he turned up at United.
Just my thought, he's a decent player, but not outstanding and certainly not as good as lots of posters here seem to think or hope. He seems a likable enough player though, so I hope he does well, Everton is probably the right level for him I think.
Just my thought, he's a decent player, but not outstanding and certainly not as good as lots of posters here seem to think or hope. He seems a likable enough player though, so I hope he does well, Everton is probably the right level for him I think.
DVB haven’t impressed or convinced anyone at United, and off course he doesn’t offer more than McT, Fred and Matic. Otherwise people who watch and analyse him every day would have played him.
United believed they bought an eagle and received a sparrow. United has realised their mistake and now try to offload him and do some damage control. His loan spell will likely increase his crashed market value and trigger potential buyers. Hopefully United is able to get >£20m for him and not loose double digits millions.
Maybe Uniteds reluctance to sell donny is based on the fact ten hag might be coming and he knows how to get the best out of him? 
You misconstrue the argument. I criticized exactly that you ridiculed Solskjær and Rangnik, and posters who didn’t find it foolish not to play Van de Beek more.
You based it on an argument of that United’s midfield were not good enough, it would take a fool not to play VdB more over Fred, McTom and presumably Matic.
Then it’s interesting to note that De Boer as well had a underachieving midfield, and didn’t play VdB any more than Solskjær did.
It’s also interesting that Van Gaal in August picked his first Dutch squad, and found no place for VdB at all, despite the facts that he had played in preseason and had been unanimously reported to be in great shape, while picking players that were either not more match fit or nowhere near the level of the player VdB would have to be as a CM to displace Fred or McTominay. Spartak Moskva and Freiburg outcast Guus Til - more or less exactly Donny’s profile - was picked on the back of a hat trick for loan club Feyenoord against Kosovan club FC Drita (funny to Norwegians as it means ‘stone drunk’). Exaggerating the Van Gaal’s preferance of regular starters into a Natural Law does not do all the explaining of that.
It’s also worth noting that CM connoisseur Carrick gave VdB a start in his first game as manager, not at CM - where he preferred Fred and McTominay - pulled him off after 66 mins and didn’t trust him with more than a few mins of extra time against Arsenal and Chelsea, despite playing three CMs vs Chelsea (he preferred Matic) and Matic being out injured vs Arsenal.
To support your conclusion that only a fool would not let VdB in the team ahead of Fred and McTominay, I’d expected at least a couple of other coaches to be more interested in playing him.
What we do know, however, is that two managers have seen Donny, Fred, Scott and Nemanja day in, day out in training and have both decided that Donny should be last resort.
And I take two managers' view on this higher than yours or mine.