Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

eire-red said:
I tend to agree with you there. He strikes me as more of a continuity player who can go box-to-box and keep play moving and be a link man. Looks like he has an eye for goal too the little I've saw of him. Kind of reminds me of Lampard the way he sometimes drifts into the box.

Maybe we'll never see the best of DvB unless we have a top DM beside him to sit in the No. 6. Problem is, despite how much he infuriates me and I wouldn't be overly sad to see him go, you'd much rather have Pogba for that B2B role with a competent defensive player sitting deep.
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Van de Beek seems quite all-rounded player, it will be interesting to see how he does playing in deep midfield beside Allan. Pogba though definitely needs top class hard working DM if we are to play midfield two, as he's much more of an attacking player with little defensive awareness.
 
It’s not rare for a player who is not good enough for us to move on and look okay in a worse team. Lots of players in the league look okay. Are they good enough for us? Mostly not.

Admittedly our current CM options are not good enough and it’s our biggest problem. We won’t solve it by playing other players who also aren’t good enough. VDB has an awful lot to do to suggest he can flourish here.
 
OrcaFat said:
It’s not rare for a player who is not good enough for us to move on and look okay in a worse team. Lots of players in the league look okay. Are they good enough for us? Mostly not.

Admittedly our current CM options are not good enough and it’s our biggest problem. We won’t solve it by playing other players who also aren’t good enough. VDB has an awful lot to do to suggest he can flourish here.
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What has MCT done to suggest he can flourish here? What has Rashford done?
 
OrcaFat said:
It’s not rare for a player who is not good enough for us to move on and look okay in a worse team. Lots of players in the league look okay. Are they good enough for us? Mostly not.

Admittedly our current CM options are not good enough and it’s our biggest problem. We won’t solve it by playing other players who also aren’t good enough. VDB has an awful lot to do to suggest he can flourish here.
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Van de Beek playing as a CM -









(Hooked at half time because of AWB red card)

He also had a good game vs Wolves but there's no highlight reel on youtube for that, this was the general reaction - https://www.caughtoffside.com/2021/05/23/man-united-fans-on-donny-van-de-beek-performance-vs-wolves/

Whenever he's been used as an 6/8 he's looked good enough.
 
luke511 said:
Van de Beek playing as a CM -









(Hooked at half time because of AWB red card)

He also had a good game vs Wolves but there's no highlight reel on youtube for that, this was the general reaction - https://www.caughtoffside.com/2021/05/23/man-united-fans-on-donny-van-de-beek-performance-vs-wolves/

Whenever he's been used as an 6/8 he's looked good enough.
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I don’t say he never ever played okay. He was never better than okay for my money and he wouldn’t get near starting for any of our rivals. We need players who would walk into City, Liverpool and Chelsea teams, never mind ours.

This is a new start for him, an opportunity, and good luck to him. My point was that a couple of decent run outs for Everton is not persuasive.
 
OrcaFat said:
I don’t say he never ever played okay. He was never better than okay for my money and he wouldn’t get near starting for any of our rivals. We need players who would walk into City, Liverpool and Chelsea teams, never mind ours.

This is a new start for him, an opportunity, and good luck to him. My point was that a couple of decent run outs for Everton is not persuasive.
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He deserved a run in the team though. Especially given the other options - Mctominay/Fred are way under "just okay" yet they get chance after chance.

Those teams you mentioned would pick Donny over McFred.
 
OrcaFat said:
I don’t say he never ever played okay. He was never better than okay for my money and he wouldn’t get near starting for any of our rivals. We need players who would walk into City, Liverpool and Chelsea teams, never mind ours.

This is a new start for him, an opportunity, and good luck to him. My point was that a couple of decent run outs for Everton is not persuasive.
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You said he's an awful lot to do to suggest he can flourish here, and I'm giving you examples of him showing signs of doing so as a CM for utd. I've no doubt that he would've been given a much better opportunity at those 3 clubs given that passing, ball retention and energy/movement are his main strengths.
 
luke511 said:
You said he's an awful lot to do to suggest he can flourish here, and I'm giving you examples of him showing signs of doing so as a CM for utd. I've no doubt that he would've been given a much better opportunity at those 3 clubs given that passing, ball retention and energy/movement are his main strengths.
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I do doubt that but I suppose they wouldn’t have bought him in the first place.
 
Robindinho said:
He deserved a run in the team though. Especially given the other options - Mctominay/Fred are way under "just okay" yet they get chance after chance.

Those teams you mentioned would pick Donny over McFred.
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I’m not sure about that at all. If the managers of those clubs suddenly took over here I’m not sure they would pick VDB over McFred. I don’t think they would. But they would all insist on immediate upgrades of the midfield or tell the Glazers to go feck ‘emselves (by which I mean the whole CM situation is terrible here).

I want to be mistaken and welcome him back as a viable option. I just don’t think he’ll make it at a top PL club and the beauty is we will find out in time.
 
eire-red said:
I tend to agree with you there. He strikes me as more of a continuity player who can go box-to-box and keep play moving and be a link man. Looks like he has an eye for goal too the little I've saw of him. Kind of reminds me of Lampard the way he sometimes drifts into the box.

Maybe we'll never see the best of DvB unless we have a top DM beside him to sit in the No. 6. Problem is, despite how much he infuriates me and I wouldn't be overly sad to see him go, you'd much rather have Pogba for that B2B role with a competent defensive player sitting deep.
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I'd take VdB over Pogba in a heartbeat. Not because he's a better player, but because he's a better teammate. Too much drama with Pogba while Donny seems to be very professional. I just want to see him given a fair chance. Unfortunately I think the only way that will happen is if ten Hag is our manager next year. Which hopefully happens but it might not...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I'd take VdB over Pogba in a heartbeat. Not because he's a better player, but because he's a better teammate. Too much drama with Pogba while Donny seems to be very professional. I just want to see him given a fair chance. Unfortunately I think the only way that will happen is if ten Hag is our manager next year. Which hopefully happens but it might not...
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You mention "teammate". What drama is there with Pogba in the dressing room or on the pitch?
 
lex talionis said:
There actually were a few matches where Donny was named MOTM. But no, you didn't miss the games when Donny was brilliant, because he never was brilliant in the few games that he was allowed to play. Solid, at times very good, but not brilliant if what we mean by brilliant is prime Scholes or even David Silva. But Donny was more than competent with the ball and substantially superior to McTominay and Fred. Yes, McTominay and Fred are not exactly world beaters themselves but the point here is these two get start after start while a clearly superior midfielder rotted on the bench.

Baffling, but this is not our dads' Manchester United.
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So, you are saying that 3 different managers sabotaged themselves not playing Donny, even though he is better than other options?

I'm sorry, but I'll take the professionals' side on this one.
 
georgipep said:
So, you are saying that 3 different managers sabotaged themselves not playing Donny, even though he is better than other options?

I'm sorry, but I'll take the professionals' side on this one.
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How did you come up with this number?
Ole refused to play him for no apparent reason. Carrick was here for 3 minutes. Ralf never played him and it's likely van de Beek had an agreement with Everton by the time RR joined. For the Netherlands he was a regular until he started "playing" for United, right?
 
Borys said:
Ole refused to play him for no apparent reason. Carrick was here for 3 minutes. Ralf never played him and it's likely van de Beek had an agreement with Everton by the time RR joined.
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Even though he only joined them because Lampard was appointed manager? Donny must have known when Ralf got the job that Rafa will get sacked in Jan, Lampard will be the manager and will want Donny?

Cause clearly he was on his way to Palace until Lampard was appointed Everton manager.
 
romufc said:
Even though he only joined them because Lampard was appointed manager? Donny must have known when Ralf got the job that Rafa will get sacked in Jan, Lampard will be the manager and will want Donny?

Cause clearly he was on his way to Palace until Lampard was appointed Everton manager.
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Yeah I suppose it was more of an agreement between the club and van de Beek. I can't believe Ralf decided he can spare a midfielder after whatever he saw on the training ground. Makes very little sense considering our midfield situation.
 
Borys said:
Yeah I suppose it was more of an agreement between the club and van de Beek. I can't believe Ralf decided he can spare a midfielder after whatever he saw on the training ground. Makes very little sense considering our midfield situation.
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I think Ralf realised that Pogba is coming back to fitness, he has Matic, McFred so he can let Donny get regular football.

I mean with Pogba leaving, if Donny has a good loan spell the next manager could trust him, especially if its Ten Hag.
 
Robindinho said:
He deserved a run in the team though. Especially given the other options - Mctominay/Fred are way under "just okay" yet they get chance after chance.

Those teams you mentioned would pick Donny over McFred.
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It is rather obvious, isn't it? At least give it a go for 4 games or so, it's not that any other midfielder was in great form
 
romufc said:
I think Ralf realised that Pogba is coming back to fitness, he has Matic, McFred so he can let Donny get regular football.

I mean with Pogba leaving, if Donny has a good loan spell the next manager could trust him, especially if its Ten Hag.
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I'd bet 100 bucks that Pogba and VDB are a better midfield than Pogba McT or Pogba Fred
 
Escobar said:
I'd bet 100 bucks that Pogba and VDB are a better midfield than Pogba McT or Pogba Fred
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There is plenty evidence and a team needs a midfielder who will do the dirty work. VDB is playing with Allan at Everton. Neither Donny or Pogba will do that.
 
romufc said:
I think Ralf realised that Pogba is coming back to fitness, he has Matic, McFred so he can let Donny get regular football.

I mean with Pogba leaving, if Donny has a good loan spell the next manager could trust him, especially if its Ten Hag.
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I can live with that explanation. However, with Matic being old, Pogba getting back from injury and very very likely leaving at the end of the season, it would make more sense to integrate van de Beek into the team rather than effectively use 3 midfielders in Fred, McTominay and Pogba no?
 
Borys said:
I can live with that explanation. However, with Matic being old, Pogba getting back from injury and very very likely leaving at the end of the season, it would make more sense to integrate van de Beek into the team rather than effectively use 3 midfielders in Fred, McTominay and Pogba no?
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I totally agree with you, we could have good to see VDB get used in line for next season. However; If Ralf has decided that he will be used sparingly, this is the best option.

I rather him play regularly, show us what we can do.
 
Escobar said:
It is rather obvious, isn't it? At least give it a go for 4 games or so, it's not that any other midfielder was in great form
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Exactly, I don't understand why we never tried it (given Pogba being out too).

Even if you wanted a 'runner' - could have played one of Mctominay/Fred with VdB and then Bruno ahead, or those two as '8s'. We'd have kept the ball better and had more control of the game in midfield. Oh well.
 
Borys said:
How did you come up with this number?
Ole refused to play him for no apparent reason. Carrick was here for 3 minutes. Ralf never played him and it's likely van de Beek had an agreement with Everton by the time RR joined. For the Netherlands he was a regular until he started "playing" for United, right?
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Yes, you listed all 3 of the managers. All 3 of them have seen him in training and I guess you are saying they decided not to play a better player because.....
If a player plays well for a different team in a different league that means what?
 
georgipep said:
Yes, you listed all 3 of the managers. All 3 of them have seen him in training and I guess you are saying they decided not to play a better player because.....
If a player plays well for a different team in a different league that means what?
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It means that if you invest in him you have to give him a chance. Otherwise you're not doing a good job at developing the squad.
Managing a team is not about playing same XI all the time because others are not proven on this level.
 
Escobar said:
I'd bet 100 bucks that Pogba and VDB are a better midfield than Pogba McT or Pogba Fred
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Pogba VDB would be a great midfield for a team that works together, press with efficiency, and keeps the ball most of the time.
 
OrcaFat said:
I don’t say he never ever played okay. He was never better than okay for my money and he wouldn’t get near starting for any of our rivals. We need players who would walk into City, Liverpool and Chelsea teams, never mind ours.

This is a new start for him, an opportunity, and good luck to him. My point was that a couple of decent run outs for Everton is not persuasive.
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The problem with your argument is that he was never given the chance to "flourish". He was just benched for the 2 years he has been here, playing an occassional match with the subs here and there and a 5 min sub appearance every month or something. How can a player, no matter how good he is, prove anything in that environment?
 
Sviken said:
The problem with your argument is that he was never given the chance to "flourish". He was just benched for the 2 years he has been here, playing an occassional match with the subs here and there and a 5 min sub appearance every month or something. How can a player, no matter how good he is, prove anything in that environment?
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True, he couldn’t prove it to us, we rarely saw him. But he had ample chance to prove it to the guys who pick the team.

Now he has another chance, a better chance, I hope, to show what he can do. Again, though, I’m hoping for more than “okay” or “worth a punt” or “can’t be worse than McFred”.
 
OrcaFat said:
But he had ample chance to prove it to the guys who pick the team.
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But the guys who pick the team aren't exactly shining with their managerial masterclass. And this is the crux of the issue. Do we trust those guys that have thoroughly unimpressed with the job or do we trust our eyes? IMO, Donny deserved a few consecutive starts this season for the good performances he put in some matches he got to play in, but he never did. He was always promptly benched despite the McFred duo putting absolutely gash performances week in and week out. Hell, even when McTominay was suspended or Fred was unavailable, he was benched for Matic who can barely walk on the pitch 5 min before getting tired.

I'm sorry, but given what I've seen from our coaches, I don't trust them. And I'm not gonna be too hard on Rangnick since he has inherited a terrible mess, but he hasn't exactly set the world alight here, nor does he have a Klopp or Guardiola resume for me to trust him. For me, his value is revolutionizing and modernizing the club and I never rated his managerial abilities - they're adequate and decent, but not Manchester United level. We'll see who is right, but no matter how this one goes, Donny was never given a chance and that is my main issue.

Edit: It's funny. I used to slate Fellaini for being the antithesis of what a United midfielder is, but if you can offer me prime Fellaini in front of McFred, i'll fecking bite your hands off. At least he used to offer something. Wasn''t the best and obviously not United level, but he had his uses. McFred don't have any uses. Not sure even a team like Newcastle will take them for their midfield.
 
Sviken said:
But the guys who pick the team aren't exactly shining with their managerial masterclass. And this is the crux of the issue. Do we trust those guys that have thoroughly unimpressed with the job or do we trust our eyes? IMO, Donny deserved a few consecutive starts this season for the good performances he put in some matches he got to play in, but he never did. He was always promptly benched despite the McFred duo putting absolutely gash performances week in and week out. Hell, even when McTominay was suspended or Fred was unavailable, he was benched for Matic who can barely walk on the pitch 5 min before getting tired.

I'm sorry, but given what I've seen from our coaches, I don't trust them. And I'm not gonna be too hard on Rangnick since he has inherited a terrible mess, but he hasn't exactly set the world alight here, nor does he have a Klopp or Guardiola resume for me to trust him. For me, his value is revolutionizing and modernizing the club and I never rated his managerial abilities - they're adequate and decent, but not Manchester United level. We'll see who is right, but no matter how this one goes, Donny was never given a chance and that is my main issue.

Edit: It's funny. I used to slate Fellaini for being the antithesis of what a United midfielder is, but if you can offer me prime Fellaini in front of McFred, i'll fecking bite your hands off. At least he used to offer something. Wasn''t the best and obviously not United level, but he had his uses. McFred don't have any uses. Not sure even a team like Newcastle will take them for their midfield.
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It could be that VDB was a victim of circumstances in that he doesn’t pair well with any of our other CM options. He is technically better than most of them, sure, nobody disagrees with that, but we both know there’s more than that to being effective. Your example, Fellaini, was usually much more effective than I’ve ever seen VDB be.

I’m not saying he’ll never get there and it would have been useful to have seen him more because it’s hard to make a case for him based on the minutes he did get here.

The main arguments for him getting more minutes seem to be: that he hasn’t had enough minutes; or that our other options are inadequate. Both assertions are true but neither makes a specific case for VDB - might just as well pick some of the kids based on that logic. A third argument is that he has shown himself to be better than our other options and that one I do disagree with.

A loan was the best for all and there’s plenty of time for him to come good.
 
Borys said:
It means that if you invest in him you have to give him a chance. Otherwise you're not doing a good job at developing the squad.
Managing a team is not about playing same XI all the time because others are not proven on this level.
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Donny has been given plenty of chances. He did not take them. Simple as that.
 
georgipep said:
Donny has been given plenty of chances. He did not take them. Simple as that.
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Go on. Explain...how many times has he been given more than say 60 minutes consecutively having come from a much weaker league...in 18 months? He is no world beater but let’s not kid ourselves that we handled him in any way professionally let alone intelligently.
 
captaincantona said:
Go on. Explain...how many times has he been given more than say 60 minutes consecutively having come from a much weaker league...in 18 months? He is no world beater but let’s not kid ourselves that we handled him in any way professionally let alone intelligently.
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It's astonishing how people do not understand that he hasn't been given more starts and minutes because....wait for it...he didn't deserve it.
 
georgipep said:
Donny has been given plenty of chances. He did not take them. Simple as that.
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BS. He played matches plenty good enough, they just didn't want to break up the mcfred partnership.
 
georgipep said:
Donny has been given plenty of chances. He did not take them. Simple as that.
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If that's really what you think, after all discussions in this thread, then there's just no point in continuing. I don't take your last few posts seriously.

Just for the record if you're not actually a WUM, I don't believe he got a chance, or in fact any support from Ole.
Also, when he was given a run, he actually did ok and for sure didn't deserve to be put back to the fridge again.
 
Borys said:
If that's really what you think, after all discussions in this thread, then there's just no point in continuing. I don't take your last few posts seriously.

Just for the record if you're not actually a WUM, I don't believe he got a chance, or in fact any support from Ole.
Also, when he was given a run, he actually did ok and for sure didn't deserve to be put back to the fridge again.
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Just because the poster disagrees with you, doesn’t make them a WUM you know.

You think VDB did okay but some of us don’t. He did have a few chances and I thought he was mostly ineffective, sometimes awful. He had a couple of okay run outs. I don’t think that’s a fringe opinion, probably not even a minority opinion.

VDB might have settled into being a more useful squad option but at his age he needs to be playing every week. Let’s see how he does at Everton; although, chances are he will divide opinion there as well.
 
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