I thought it's common understanding that van de Beek had an agreement with the club that he will be loaned out. RR didn't play him because he knew that he won't be available soon anyway.
Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch
- Thread starter VanDeBank
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I get your sentiment, but I don't think we saw much from DvB either. Sure, he may be better than McTominay and Fred, but I see DvB mostly as that third midfielder who has licence to get forward and keeps things ticking in midfield.
Bruno has the position as the most attacking midfielder nailed down, and Fred and McTominay play to add some stability (which they haven't for a long time I know). I don't think DvB is suited to a deeper role, and we definitely didn't see enough in his time here to warrant dropping Bruno, or changing the dynamic that much to accommodate him.
Maybe if we had a top drawer DM, DvB could play that pivot role with licence to operate primarily in the middle third and get forward occasionally. It will actually be interesting to see how he plays with Allan, who is a more natural DM as opposed to Fred or McTominay. Could shape our thinking next season?
I've seen a lot of people saying he doesn't have a work rate when that's one of his biggest attributes and he even said he will run his socks off for this club.
The issue why he isn't good enough is because he isn't physical enough even though Fred gets bodied every game. It's quite clear the reason why Donny was not being played is because of club politics.
People are saying Rangnick didn't pick him but if he did it will disrupt the corrupt behaviour in the camp when he needs the majority on his side than the few.
Im pleased to see VDB's loan going well so far and I'm sure he can play a role for us next season.
It is obvious that if he was such a poor trainer ETH is not going to select him for his team. It is a load of bollocks.
It is? Not heard that before.
Sounds like we're just constructing another way of bashing Ole tbh.
That's not a common understanding as far as I can see.
And even if it was it doesn't stand up because a new manager comes in, the first order of business is assessing your squad, especially as there is very little time to waste coming in mid season. The first thing is how are we getting results, not pre season or transfers.
Naturally if a player is banging your door down because he was unhappy with his lot under the previous regime then you have an opportunity to get him on side or say you're not for me, we'll find you a loan. Not necessarily to offer guarantees but it is a new start.
The bare facts are that he had opportunities to play VDB and chose not to which is obviously with a reason. It just seems to me that we are always finding ways to excuse the player and ignore an obvious conclusion that is completely evident, two managers didn't see him in their first choice sides which is not a random decision but connected to a reason or opinion. They could both be wrong in their analysis, that is a possibility.
I still don't think Ralf had much space for maneuver, and that is because we were not in a good position to let a midfielder go on loan, and still we did. Which doesn't seem to me like a reasonable decision made after like a month of watching him train. Because he did watch him play football at all, unless we count in summarized 25 mins in 3 games.
It would never have been publicly disclosed by the club that Ralf was not to risk Donny due to an agreement with the player to loan him out. But it was widely known that Donny was looking for a loan move, even that knowledge was based on leaks and rumors.
And It turned out that way. Ralf didn’t play Donny and Donny got the loan move. So although it can’t be proven as fact, it’s a pretty solid explanation.
An alternative explanation is that Ralf sees in Donny a useless footballer. That’s certainly a plausible theory but based on what we’ve all seen of Donny when he was at Ajax, Donny would have had to suffer a serious collapse in form once he arrived at Old Trafford. Perhaps, but when a player isn’t even given a chance to perform on the pitch, it can’t be argued that he failed on the pitch. And when we see players like Fred and McTominay get start after start, performance quality cannot be the explanation as to why Donny was frozen out of the first team.
And It turned out that way. Ralf didn’t play Donny and Donny got the loan move. So although it can’t be proven as fact, it’s a pretty solid explanation.
An alternative explanation is that Ralf sees in Donny a useless footballer. That’s certainly a plausible theory but based on what we’ve all seen of Donny when he was at Ajax, Donny would have had to suffer a serious collapse in form once he arrived at Old Trafford. Perhaps, but when a player isn’t even given a chance to perform on the pitch, it can’t be argued that he failed on the pitch. And when we see players like Fred and McTominay get start after start, performance quality cannot be the explanation as to why Donny was frozen out of the first team.
Imagine how much worse Donny has to have been in training that Ole seeing where things are heading (and ultimately ended) didn't want to play him. And Rangnick, seeing how one manager lost his job with that midfield, still didn't want to play him....
The argument that the current midfield is bad, so Donny must be tried, is very flawed. You might then argue that the current midfield is so bad, they might as well try the two of us as a midfield pair, right? There are many shades of "bad".
Donny should have been given a shot regardless of the results, it's basic management to develop players so that you can use them in the future.
Otherwise you end up with Fred, McTominay and the end of the season (with Pogba and van de Beek likely leaving). Which is where we are now I guess.
Maybe our coaches just aren't looking for the right things?
It seems like all they think is DVB = number 10. Fernandes = number 10. Fernandes better than DVB, so DVB stays benched.
We have Fred, Mctominay, Matic, Pogba for midfield, if those 4 aren't available then MAYBE DVB will get a chance.
I just cannot for the life of me understand how/why Fred or Mctominay are so undroppable. Half the time they have bang average matches.
I could understand it if they were flawless and never had bad games, but they do.
Really? The club said to Ralf you can't use Donny van de Beek for all these games because we've said to him we're going to be very nice to you and let you go to Everton on loan?
Seems utterly implausible to me, we're talking as if Ralf is a schoolboy manager and there's tens of millions at stake when actually the loan is of totally uncertain benefit for us. We have the players contract, if you're Ralf you dictate what happens you don't sit on your hands. You say to the player and club I fancy you and you'll get game time. It's a completely different scenario to whatever happened with Ole, that's all water under the bridge.
Cannot get into this line of thinking at all, seems to require a certain softness about all involved rather than something very simple as an explanation. Like the manager doesn't think he's that useful.
Bravo
If I stick this on my clipboard it will be the best answer to ~70% of the posts on the United Forum
Agreement between the club and van de Beek seems the most likely explanation why he didn't play under RR, yes. In that case he just wasn't considered as part of the squad and wasn't picked. Doesn't matter what Ralf wanted at this point.
What's the other scenario, Ralf saw him train and play for 25 minutes and said "OK boy I've seen enough, you're going on loan, we're good with Fred, McT, Pogba and Matic"? That doesn't sound too professional.
It's certainly possible he was not considered useful by two managers. We'll find out soon enough if that's true I guess. I for sure didn't get that impression watching him play.
There's no way Van de Beek didn't try to earn a place under Rangnick before pushing for a loan. Fred and McTominay was simply preferred in those two deep positions and for whatever reason Rangnick didn't fancy him there. So when the January window was looming, at that point it was clear he wasn't going to become a starter and wanted the loan to prove himself elsewhere. Rangnick should've at least satisifed Van de Beek with enough opportunities so he could at work out whether he was capable or not, and at the same time ease VDBs worries about not getting game time before the world cup. Now we're a centre midfielder down when we're already short on options, bad do.
I can see an agreement between club and player pre-Rangnick. Yes, quite possible as the player must have been extremely frustrated.
What I don't see is how he left the door without RR assessing him and making a decision on it. I don't see any manager at this level of football not having the gumption and initiative to come in and say "hang on this guy's going to be a top player for me, why's he got an informal agreement going to a relegation side?"
The idea he could simply accept that is unfathomable to me, and then the idea you wouldn't play him over X amount of important games just because he's got a loan lined up is weird, you're talking as if it's a 50 million transfer. The player could get injured now or at Everton, that's football, there is nothing particularly important to the club contingent on him not getting injured, it's just a loan. The games are way more important and they also form part of an opportunity to convince the player to stay if RR wanted him so that also makes no sense.
Just doesn't add up at all, I think RR came in, assessed him, came to whatever reasoning he did and said he can go on loan in January. Doesn't require all these totally weird lines of reasoning that are so wishy washy that I'd be really disappointed in Ralf.
I don't know mate. Seems unlikely there was no green light from Ralf UNLESS the deal was done before he actually joined. And I don't know how possible that is, but in my opinion definitely more likely than Ralf sending van de Beek on loan and weakening our weakest area because he saw him train a few times and didn't like him.
It certainly is a very interesting situation.
I’ll be honest the situation is very strange. Neither Ole or Ralph seem unreasonable guys, quite the opposite in fact. Why they both haven’t fancied the player is a mystery but there’s got to be something to it.
Let’s see how the loan goes and review it in the summer. If he can show it week in week out at Everton then there’s no reason he can’t contribute next season at United.
Let’s see how the loan goes and review it in the summer. If he can show it week in week out at Everton then there’s no reason he can’t contribute next season at United.
Let's see how many coaches reach the same conclusions...
No, that's just stupid. You give chances to those who earn them in training. Otherwise players would feel there's no point in doing their best in training.
First team places are given on merit. Or they should be. When two managers in a row have decided that Donny doesn't deserve a starting place, I am inclined to believe he has proven that his level is lower than his competition in the squad.
Maybe Donny is being bullied 
Oh, back to the "Donny must be shite in training" argument.
We can also assume he was a professional footballer for X years at Ajax and the Netherlands NT but something switched when he joined United and he's giving full 30% in training. Fair enough.
Thankfully van de Beek joined a team with lower competition level in midfield area than at United and we will see how being poor at training translates into actual peformances.
So much fuss about how unfairly he was treated here after one average or above average display against a poor side, at home. Fair play to him, he's shown himself in a good light. I hope he plays regularly and prove us all wrong. Just some over the top comments from his fan boys here.
Out of his own mouth, DvB is more of a 6 or an 8 than a 10 but he can play all 3. We mostly saw him in the 10 which I was never impressed when played there. But when he played as an 8 I always thought he looked good. We just didn't see enough of it and I really don't understand why...
It's less to do with the individual and more to do with trying to solve a problem utd has on the pitch. There's been a potential solution available for the last season and a half and both managers have chosen to ignore it repeatedly. We need a midfielder that transitions from defence to attack quickly with good passing whilst providing energy and Van de Beek has shown he's capable of that from deep.
Pogba was out for a long time due to injury. Bruno has been shit for most of the season…but he is Bruno. Fred and McTominay have been shit for most of the season and last season. Matic has put in a few performances of note, but his legs are shot.
Yet despite all this neither Ole nor Ralf saw fit to give Donny a proper runout. What was the point of buying him then?
Yet despite all this neither Ole nor Ralf saw fit to give Donny a proper runout. What was the point of buying him then?
The thing for me is when he did finally get chances his confidence was shot after being left out so much he always played safe which didn’t help.
Also sums up our club and style when McFred start most games and DVB doesn’t get a look in. If pep was here it be the opposite
You would think this but then again Aguero was notoriously bad in training but look at him in matches
Yeah, I must've missed the games when Donny was brilliant. And for 50 games in which he participated, you would guess there should've been at least a few...
"Participated" is such a fantastic weasel word. This season he played 14 games and started 4, playing the full 90 minutes just twice (against Young Boys and West Ham in the League Cup). From early November to early December he was brought on in six league games in a row, playing a total of 63 minutes, 45 of which were in one game (Solskjaer's last game against Watford, in which he scored). In the other five he was brought on in the 80th, 89th, 90th, 86th and 88th minutes.
The idea of that constituting any sort of a chance to do anything is laughable, even though he was racking up appearances. I don't think anybody ever claimed he was a specialist super sub who you bring on in the last two minutes to grab you a goal in injury time.
Imagine how low he is valued by the three managers he's played under to only be involved that much..
Very well said. Back in SAF era, Veron was deemed an expensive flop, but at least Veron has been given sufficient opportunities to prove that he couldn't fully cope with the intensity of PL.
In other case, VDB has never been treated properly and situation only get worse this season. Which I couldn't understand at all.
You don't be a regular for Ajax if you can't play football. Neither Fred nor McTominay is going to get into the Ajax side.
So it doesn't show if DVB is worse than Fred or McTominay.
The best would have been if he had been played a few times to see if he is good enough or not? Not the 88th minutes sub appearance.
So it doesn't show if DVB is worse than Fred or McTominay.
The best would have been if he had been played a few times to see if he is good enough or not? Not the 88th minutes sub appearance.
Does this video do him justice? I mean okay he hasn't set the world on fire when he started for us, but it's just baffling how many times he was overlooked when he was a good option to play the ball to...
There actually were a few matches where Donny was named MOTM. But no, you didn't miss the games when Donny was brilliant, because he never was brilliant in the few games that he was allowed to play. Solid, at times very good, but not brilliant if what we mean by brilliant is prime Scholes or even David Silva. But Donny was more than competent with the ball and substantially superior to McTominay and Fred. Yes, McTominay and Fred are not exactly world beaters themselves but the point here is these two get start after start while a clearly superior midfielder rotted on the bench.
Baffling, but this is not our dads' Manchester United.
Some of those situations is just good movement which was not seen by the player on the ball, it happens. But overall this is a very good example of how we play football, meaning holding the ball way too long, always looking either for killer pass or back to the defensive line. There is nothing happening in between backline and attacking third, and that's where van de Beek seems to be quite effective. He realeases the ball quickly, what I like, and seems to be quite a fighter (no worse than McTominay and Fred).
This is an average van de Beek performance in midfield, he was decent to good without being flashy, although he created the best chance of the game for Greenwood (3:30).
I can name a few posters who would be creaming themselves over such performance from Pogba. Wonder how much playing time he got after this game?
total number of 60minutes in 3 games over 2 months (we played 10 games over that period)
I mean, Leeds, are THE team that plays with the highest tempo and pressing, they run at you like a mad man, and, he did quite well, of course he did nothing revolutionary here, but he can handle the rumble and tumble of PL football,
He played for Ajax in the CL which is a much higher level than the PL.
I tend to agree with you there. He strikes me as more of a continuity player who can go box-to-box and keep play moving and be a link man. Looks like he has an eye for goal too the little I've saw of him. Kind of reminds me of Lampard the way he sometimes drifts into the box.
Maybe we'll never see the best of DvB unless we have a top DM beside him to sit in the No. 6. Problem is, despite how much he infuriates me and I wouldn't be overly sad to see him go, you'd much rather have Pogba for that B2B role with a competent defensive player sitting deep.