United will not be 'successful' until we stop being profitable

fastwalker

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If the plan of the Glazers was to gradually de-sensitise United fans to the idea of winning trophies, the last few years have proved to be a master stroke. Years on from our last trophy of any description, we are no closer to winning the PL title. Yet the boardroom level outrage that you would expect to see at our fellow big club rivals appears to be completely missing.

Whatever one says about the managerial merry-go-rounds at Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona PSG, no-one can say that those clubs are not run by people who see silverware as the sole currency of success. Conversely, at United, profit is the singular motive of the Glazers and silverware seems all but incidental to that goal. The tragedy is that we are in a virtual death spiral with the Glazer family. They have found ways to keep United continually profitable, without it needing to be successful. Not only that but massive wages have created inflated egos and relative to investment, produced poor on-pitch returns.

The amateur hour efforts at succession planning in the wake of Sir Alex's departure are the clearest evidence if it were needed, that those running the club are utterly clueless. As we amble towards the summer and the appointment of a permanent manager, can we be confident that an appointee is being sought to suit the board or the club? As painful as it may sound, if it means that United can finally break free of the Glazers, years out of the Champions League and a declining global brand may actually be the best thing for us.

What do others think?
 
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The club can turn a profit while being successful, but you have to be clever in how you operate to do it. We certainly are not that at the moment.
 
Just don’t think this is true. Our issue is we need a big culture change, mentality change, and better use of our funds. We can’t really say we haven’t spent. The problem is we’ve spent on crap mostly. But not just crap, it’s incoherent. We don’t have a style. We try and sign players who are good without any consideration of whether they are good together.
 
I can't agree as there are many other clubs who are profitable but have also solid football projects. Being profitable isn't the main issue
 
Our main issue is the Manchester United brand. Which has come from Woodward/ Glazers too. Our players’ fame has more importance than on pitch effort and ability. No offence to Rashford, everything he’s done is great btw, but I wouldn’t be surprised if United have encouraged him to push his humanitarian persona to the max for our image. Which has affected his football.

We’ll give Pogba a new shiny undeserved contract because of his brand. Managers who don’t cause a fuss are loved by the board. We’ll get Pochettino for this reason. Or worse, Rodgers. Jose was the right man at the wrong time. Conte probably the right man at the right time but we feared his hostile nature.

It’s obvious with players tweeting when Ralf is honest the dynamics in house was kept under wraps. Now he’s outing their dirty laundry and they don’t like it. We need to bring the power back to the manager for footballing reasons. Not the players or the board who want the united brand.
 
The amount of violence to the facts you need to commit to keep believing this narrative is staggering. We have just finished second the season before this one, surely a clueless but greedy owner who doesn't care about silverware wouldn't then spend 140 million euros (the most of any club in the league), if they didn't think they can push for more this season. Why not just keep things as they are, seeing as how everything was going well (actually exceeding those supposed expectations) for someone who is satisfied with just top four?

It's safest to assume that every owner out there (with the exception of sports-washing projects) is motivated by a pursuit of profit. It just so happens that one of the best ways to achieve profit is to win silverware, which then makes winning trophies also a goal. There will be a plethora of clubs who therefore genuinely want to win trophies, but it's also a fact of life that only a handful of them will go on to actually achieve this goal, irrespective of their desire. That's just the nature of competition. At this moment in time, the best run clubs in the country (and considering the overall strength of the league, not just England) are undoubtedly Liverpool and City, with Chelsea a distant third. If a trophy is to be won, the likelihood is that it's gonna be one of those three clubs, but the fact that these three clubs are doing it better doesn't mean the rest are not trying.

Of course, the most beloved form of expression on this forum seems to be negative hyperbole. Everything needs to coated in exaggerations and embellishments. It couldn't be that United are actually doing quite well in the grand scheme of things, but that there are just a couple of teams in the league that are doing it better still. No, it has to be "utter cluelessness"; "complete shambles"; "absolute disaster". Again, the club finished second in the league last year. That means it finished above 40 000 other clubs in the richest football pyramid in the world. That's one perspective on the level of achievement, but of course it can't be that because where then is the affective disaster language that needs to be used in every post to make things a bit more resonant?

This explanation that masquerades as an analysis is just way to crude to be believable. It's also seems like a function of ego-centrism and a certain esprits simpliste. Every one of these quests for some arcane wisdom that would bring us back the success we all crave, assumes the form of a very simple answer to a complex problem. If only we could do this one simple thing, a thousand flowers would bloom. In this ludicrously naive variant, it's simply the desire of the owners to win silverware. Nothing more, nothing less. Just have to have the purest of intentions, and success will just follow from there. Elsewhere on the forum you will find similar such 'solutions' like 'stop believing in youth'; "be more ruthless with managers"; and so forth.
Not only is this hopelessly reductive, because success depends on a multitude of variables, it's also incredibly self centred and conceited. The implicit assumption is that whatever the formula for any sort of achievement is, all you have to is to abide by it. It assumes the club is the only subject involved, it extirpates all the other clubs in the league as if they didn't matter, as if they couldn't themselves apply this simple solution just as easily. It's like saying - if you just follow this wondrous nutrition programme you are guaranteed to lose weight. That might be true, but if the aim is too lose more weight than nineteen other people, suddenly the word guaranteed goes out the window, because everyone else can follow a programme and you aren't just competing against yourself.

This is what we have in a league. There are twenty clubs competing for the most limited of resources. There is no simple solution to getting trophies. It definitely isn't just having a desire for it, and it sure as hell won't be "years out of the Champions League".
 
If the plan of the Glazers was to gradually de-sensitise United fans to the idea of winning trophies, the last few years have proved to be a master stroke. Years on from our last trophy of any description, we are no closer to winning the PL title. Yet the boardroom level outrage that you would expect to see at our fellow big club rivals appears to be completely missing.

Whatever one says about the managerial merry-go-rounds at Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona PSG, no-one can say that those clubs are not run by people who see silverware as the sole currency of success. Conversely, at United, profit is the singular motive of the Glazers and silverware seems all but incidental to that goal. The tragedy is that we are in a virtual death spiral with the Glazer family. They have found ways to keep United continually profitable, without it needing to be successful. Not only that but massive wages have created inflated egos and relative to investment, produced poor on-pitch returns.

The amateur hour efforts at succession planning in the wake of Sir Alex's departure are the clearest evidence if it were needed, that those running the club are utterly clueless. As we amble towards the summer and the appointment of a permanent manager, can we be confident that an appointee is being sought to suit the board or the club? As painful as it may sound, if it means that United can finally break free of the Glazers, years out of the Champions League and a declining global brand may actually be the best thing for us.

What do others think?
I agree that the Glazers are the problem. Their focus on profit and PR over substance, integrity and trophies filters down through the club.

I don't see it changing. We have to hope that they implement a new structure that allows people with football knowledge to build a structure that works and allows coaches, players and managers to shine. Unfortunately with all the egos in our senior management team I also can't see this happening.

More fan protests maybe?
 
I don't see why success and profitability have to be mutually exclusive.
The owners have backed the managers.
But far too often, we have bought players based on emotions and not always logic.
Unfortunately, completely different to Liverpool.
 
Too much ego at the club in my opinion. Players earning millions who think they are it.

You can at least see Rangnick trying to wrestle back control and get the players disciplined.

Still though a few need to be gone asap like Lingard and Martial.
 
They have found ways to keep United continually profitable, without it needing to be successful.

Yes, I think that Utd. are becoming the football equivalent of a 'Take That' tribute band. People will still follow them, the merch will flow, but it will be on the back of nostalgia as people 'Never Forget' about those glory days.

Will Utd ever be 'Back for Good'?
 
I don't see why success and profitability have to be mutually exclusive.
The owners have backed the managers.
But far too often, we have bought players based on emotions and not always logic.
Unfortunately, completely different to Liverpool.

Listen to Buster. The Glazers have earned our contempt but it can't be denied that they have spent close to a one billion pounds (if not more, perhaps slightly less) on net transfer spend since 2005. We've bought poorly and responsibility for that falls on the manager as well as management. But more than that, we've brought in managers who weren't suited the task:

Moyes. Trophyless prior to joining United and trophyless since.
Van Gaal. Past it.
Mourinho. Past it.
Ole. Player legend with no record of accomplishment as manager.
Ralf. Interim manager, so no complaints there.

None of the this directly speaks to the proposition whether being profitable precludes the possibility of success on the pitch, but there's no obvious reason, as Buster states here that success and profitability have to be mutually exclusive.
 
Posts like these annoy me - you’re just wrong. We spend enough money to buy the players needed to win leagues, we just buy the wrong ones. This is a fact, we spend more money than most other clubs if not all. Another aspect is that the owners of course wants to win trophies, we just aren’t able to because we’ve had a shit manager for years + buying the wrong players. 80m for Maguire, for god’s sake I feel ill when even writing it.

So no, the premise in the opening post is just plain wrong. We can be successful, we just need better players and a great manager. The top clubs have top managers, we have had an amateur until recently.
 
We have spent a hell of a lot of money to get back to where we want to be. Investment has not been the issue, nor has a will to return to the top been an issue.

The issue has been the hiring of key people in roles where they ultimately failed. Woodward, managers and poor recruitment have cost us. The club can turn a profit and be competitive again. I don't think they are mutually exclusive goals.

The commercial side of the club making money is not the issue, the issue is how it is being spent on the football side. And who it is being spent by.

Let's think about this logically, because the Glazers are clearly not stupid people. We can continue to match any club in the world in terms of investment, and could have also been successful on the field if only we hired the right people to get us there.

Surely if we can do both, then they want to do both? It literally makes no sense to not to try and do that. Seems to me that they just don't really know how, because for a mega-rich football club we are woefully naive.

Don't get me wrong, I have no love for the Glazers, and one thing they are to blame for is the criminal lack of investment in Old Trafford itself. However, I don't think we can point to them for our lack of on-field success.
 
Yes, I think that Utd. are becoming the football equivalent of a 'Take That' tribute band. People will still follow them, the merch will flow, but it will be on the back of nostalgia as people 'Never Forget' about those glory days.

Will Utd ever be 'Back for Good'?
Don't force me to do a relight my fire joke. Don't do it!
 
Sad thing thing is, we don’t have a choice, as you say we are in a death spiral, things won’t get better.

It could soon be the case that we aren’t considered a top 4 club. It looks inevitable with Newcastle, Arsenal, Aston Villa etc on the rise.

The question is how long it will take until the Glazers call it quits. They are so terrible at running this club that it could be very soon because we are declining at a fast rate right now. It will be interesting to see if negative events and results continue to decline as fast as they have over the last 12 months.
 
If the plan of the Glazers was to gradually de-sensitise United fans to the idea of winning trophies, the last few years have proved to be a master stroke. Years on from our last trophy of any description, we are no closer to winning the PL title. Yet the boardroom level outrage that you would expect to see at our fellow big club rivals appears to be completely missing.

Whatever one says about the managerial merry-go-rounds at Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona PSG, no-one can say that those clubs are not run by people who see silverware as the sole currency of success. Conversely, at United, profit is the singular motive of the Glazers and silverware seems all but incidental to that goal. The tragedy is that we are in a virtual death spiral with the Glazer family. They have found ways to keep United continually profitable, without it needing to be successful. Not only that but massive wages have created inflated egos and relative to investment, produced poor on-pitch returns.

The amateur hour efforts at succession planning in the wake of Sir Alex's departure are the clearest evidence if it were needed, that those running the club are utterly clueless. As we amble towards the summer and the appointment of a permanent manager, can we be confident that an appointee is being sought to suit the board or the club? As painful as it may sound, if it means that United can finally break free of the Glazers, years out of the Champions League and a declining global brand may actually be the best thing for us.

What do others think?
I wholeheartedly agree with your thread title that the deterioration of financial results might be a blessing in disguise for us. However, I disagree with your assessment of the root cause of our problems - it is not the profit motive. Let me explain.

Due to being a commercial behemoth, we have long been in an enviable position of not needing to face a trade-off between financial sustainability and being competitive. In simple terms, we did not really need a sugar daddy (who would pump the money into the club and not care about profit) to compete on transfers, wages, facilities etc. - like Chelsea/City did.

Why is it relevant? If we had owners who are profit-motivated but adequate in other respects - it would not be a problem at all. Sure, it would be nice to have "sugar-daddy" owners, but we could have been easily upgrading our facilities, outspending everyone on wages and transfers AND be profitable. So the absence of profit motive would be just a pleasant bonus "on top". But for that 2 conditions should have been fulfilled from owners' side:

1. No leveraged buyout. Anyone who has a bit of a clue about both finance and football would tell you that football clubs are generally unsuitable targets for such buyouts. A good target for a leveraged buyout is a "cash-cow" business with limited need for investment. Top football clubs may generate lots of cash from operations, but need considerable investment in players (with top players being a rare commodity) and facilities to stay competitive. Had they bought United without saddling it with debt, but with their own money - we would have had close to additional £1billion to spend on players/wages/facilities over the years (even if they still paid dividends to themselves!). We would have avoided "no value in the market" era.

2. Being able to pick right people for the top management jobs, especially CEO. "Right people" means (among other qualities) people who are able to create a functioning structure on both footballing and commercial side, recognize their own limitations and delegate. With this ability we would have handled post-Fergie years a lot better.

I do not need to explain in detail how woeful Glazers are with both (1) and (2). First, Ed "sold" them the deal, which had a completely unsuitable structure. Then they picked him to run the club, and over the years failed to pull the trigger on him - whereas every man and his dog recognized that he was not the right fit for the job.

On the contrary, the owners of Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool did not saddle them with debt and did (perhaps not ideally and with bumps along the road) but considerably better on installing a functional structure on the footballing side.

Why they were able to do so better? Well, my explanation is - Liverpool and Chelsea are owned by successful businessmen. E.g. Roman is no saint, but he was not from a rich family and had to work his way to the top (am not judging means here) and still had to hire right people to run his business successfully. Sheikhs on the other hand might not have earned their money - but seem to recognize their limitations and lack of footballing/commercial knowledge and delegate these matters completely. Glazers are worst of both worlds. They are children of a successful businessman and Joel (who is the ultimate decider) is a United fan. His career was completely due to his father, and he (as many children of billionaires) seems to not only be incompetent, but also to not realize that he is incompetent (partly due to being a United fan - and each of us, of course, as a United fan knows best how to run the footballing side of United :)). Which resulted in him and Ed being involved in footballing decisions, which should have been delegated down completely with a proper structure created, after studying the experience and structure of successful clubs.

Now to the thread title. As said, I agree with the general idea. Up until recent years, due to us historically being a commercial powerhouse and having more expertise on commercial side both historically and in present we were doing ok financially. It was thus still possible for Glazers to convince themselves that it is all good, just some bumps on the road on the footballing side but that we will be competing for major trophies soon and keep doing good commercially. Now the underachievement on the pitch is finally catching up with us financially.

We were loss-making in 3 of the past 4 seasons, so even before and after empty stadiums. Many of our rivals now grow commercial revenue a lot faster than us and are likely to overtake us soon (Man City beating us on revenue is just the first of many bad news to come on financial front). If we fail to make CL (especially if more than once in a row) we would need to ramp down spending significantly or Glazers would have to pump new money into the club (unlikely) or we will have to borrow - and we do not have much capacity to do so.

Thus, we have finally come to the point when we desperately need success on the pitch to avoid a quite dire financial situation. Combined with 3 failed managerial appointments in a row - I think it has become too much for even Glazers to ignore and they cannot pretend that it is all rosy any more. So Ed was finally moved on, and Ralf brought in with a promise of a consultancy role. We as fans can only hope that Glazers - if not sell the club outright - but at least finally allow for a creation of a proper footballing structure with no meddling from owners or CEO. Not getting my hopes high though, but one can dream :)
 
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The amount of violence to the facts you need to commit to keep believing this narrative is staggering. We have just finished second the season before this one, surely a clueless but greedy owner who doesn't care about silverware wouldn't then spend 140 million euros (the most of any club in the league), if they didn't think they can push for more this season. Why not just keep things as they are, seeing as how everything was going well (actually exceeding those supposed expectations) for someone who is satisfied with just top four?

It's safest to assume that every owner out there (with the exception of sports-washing projects) is motivated by a pursuit of profit. It just so happens that one of the best ways to achieve profit is to win silverware, which then makes winning trophies also a goal. There will be a plethora of clubs who therefore genuinely want to win trophies, but it's also a fact of life that only a handful of them will go on to actually achieve this goal, irrespective of their desire. That's just the nature of competition. At this moment in time, the best run clubs in the country (and considering the overall strength of the league, not just England) are undoubtedly Liverpool and City, with Chelsea a distant third. If a trophy is to be won, the likelihood is that it's gonna be one of those three clubs, but the fact that these three clubs are doing it better doesn't mean the rest are not trying.

Of course, the most beloved form of expression on this forum seems to be negative hyperbole. Everything needs to coated in exaggerations and embellishments. It couldn't be that United are actually doing quite well in the grand scheme of things, but that there are just a couple of teams in the league that are doing it better still. No, it has to be "utter cluelessness"; "complete shambles"; "absolute disaster". Again, the club finished second in the league last year. That means it finished above 40 000 other clubs in the richest football pyramid in the world. That's one perspective on the level of achievement, but of course it can't be that because where then is the affective disaster language that needs to be used in every post to make things a bit more resonant?

This explanation that masquerades as an analysis is just way to crude to be believable. It's also seems like a function of ego-centrism and a certain esprits simpliste. Every one of these quests for some arcane wisdom that would bring us back the success we all crave, assumes the form of a very simple answer to a complex problem. If only we could do this one simple thing, a thousand flowers would bloom. In this ludicrously naive variant, it's simply the desire of the owners to win silverware. Nothing more, nothing less. Just have to have the purest of intentions, and success will just follow from there. Elsewhere on the forum you will find similar such 'solutions' like 'stop believing in youth'; "be more ruthless with managers"; and so forth.
Not only is this hopelessly reductive, because success depends on a multitude of variables, it's also incredibly self centred and conceited. The implicit assumption is that whatever the formula for any sort of achievement is, all you have to is to abide by it. It assumes the club is the only subject involved, it extirpates all the other clubs in the league as if they didn't matter, as if they couldn't themselves apply this simple solution just as easily. It's like saying - if you just follow this wondrous nutrition programme you are guaranteed to lose weight. That might be true, but if the aim is too lose more weight than nineteen other people, suddenly the word guaranteed goes out the window, because everyone else can follow a programme and you aren't just competing against yourself.

This is what we have in a league. There are twenty clubs competing for the most limited of resources. There is no simple solution to getting trophies. It definitely isn't just having a desire for it, and it sure as hell won't be "years out of the Champions League".

Hats off to you sir. Top top post right here.
 
Don't agree. Owners may be wankers but they've spent loads and given managers specially Ole more than enough to challenge. Them making a profit isn't the problem.
No, it's their choice of senior management from Woodward staying so long to the massive difference in playing style between our successive team managers that is gross mismanagement.
 
It's not a question of mutual exclusivity but rather of priorities. Assume you have a set of clubs with roughly equal spending power. If you put commercial interests above footballing ones 100% of the time you will win nothing but make lots of money short term. If you do the opposite, you will win a lot but not make as much money short term. However long term you will make more because of the success of your brand.

The Glazers have been running Manchester United as a short term proposition for almost twenty years. And that period of time has become the long term and is no longer viable. They have to change or sell, which is where we are now.
 
I think the premise is faulty in that there is no evidence that if the Glazers threw every penny we make at the side that we'd be competitive.

What is the reason for my thinking this way? The evidence in front of your eyes - the highly reactive approach to setting up a footballing structure befitting a massive club, colossal transfer failures, hideously ill-suited management choices.

Of course money will be important to restoring this club but I think it's about a lot more than diverting a greater percentage into the playing side. The stronger argument is probably that the owners are absent and not shrewd enough in their dealings to be at the head of this club rather than one that says they need to spend more or stop being profitable.
 
It's not a question of mutual exclusivity but rather of priorities. Assume you have a set of clubs with roughly equal spending power. If you put commercial interests above footballing ones 100% of the time you will win nothing but make lots of money short term. If you do the opposite, you will win a lot but not make as much money short term. However long term you will make more because of the success of your brand.

The Glazers have been running Manchester United as a short term proposition for almost twenty years. And that period of time has become the long term and is no longer viable. They have to change or sell, which is where we are now.

Great points. A lot of fans keep insisting that they can use us as a cash cow forever but that is just impossible. We can’t remain competitive and highly profitable while continuing to be handicapped by debt, dividends and poor premiership/tournament finishes.

As you said their model has no long term resilience. Bad performances such as finishing outside top 4, loosing players for free like Pogba/Greenwood and a major stadium rebuild are not budgeted for.

I think a lot of people are in for a severe shock, there is no turning this around with the current business model.
 
The amount of violence to the facts you need to commit to keep believing this narrative is staggering. We have just finished second the season before this one, surely a clueless but greedy owner who doesn't care about silverware wouldn't then spend 140 million euros (the most of any club in the league), if they didn't think they can push for more this season. Why not just keep things as they are, seeing as how everything was going well (actually exceeding those supposed expectations) for someone who is satisfied with just top four?

It's safest to assume that every owner out there (with the exception of sports-washing projects) is motivated by a pursuit of profit. It just so happens that one of the best ways to achieve profit is to win silverware, which then makes winning trophies also a goal. There will be a plethora of clubs who therefore genuinely want to win trophies, but it's also a fact of life that only a handful of them will go on to actually achieve this goal, irrespective of their desire. That's just the nature of competition. At this moment in time, the best run clubs in the country (and considering the overall strength of the league, not just England) are undoubtedly Liverpool and City, with Chelsea a distant third. If a trophy is to be won, the likelihood is that it's gonna be one of those three clubs, but the fact that these three clubs are doing it better doesn't mean the rest are not trying.

Of course, the most beloved form of expression on this forum seems to be negative hyperbole. Everything needs to coated in exaggerations and embellishments. It couldn't be that United are actually doing quite well in the grand scheme of things, but that there are just a couple of teams in the league that are doing it better still. No, it has to be "utter cluelessness"; "complete shambles"; "absolute disaster". Again, the club finished second in the league last year. That means it finished above 40 000 other clubs in the richest football pyramid in the world. That's one perspective on the level of achievement, but of course it can't be that because where then is the affective disaster language that needs to be used in every post to make things a bit more resonant?

This explanation that masquerades as an analysis is just way to crude to be believable. It's also seems like a function of ego-centrism and a certain esprits simpliste. Every one of these quests for some arcane wisdom that would bring us back the success we all crave, assumes the form of a very simple answer to a complex problem. If only we could do this one simple thing, a thousand flowers would bloom. In this ludicrously naive variant, it's simply the desire of the owners to win silverware. Nothing more, nothing less. Just have to have the purest of intentions, and success will just follow from there. Elsewhere on the forum you will find similar such 'solutions' like 'stop believing in youth'; "be more ruthless with managers"; and so forth.
Not only is this hopelessly reductive, because success depends on a multitude of variables, it's also incredibly self centred and conceited. The implicit assumption is that whatever the formula for any sort of achievement is, all you have to is to abide by it. It assumes the club is the only subject involved, it extirpates all the other clubs in the league as if they didn't matter, as if they couldn't themselves apply this simple solution just as easily. It's like saying - if you just follow this wondrous nutrition programme you are guaranteed to lose weight. That might be true, but if the aim is too lose more weight than nineteen other people, suddenly the word guaranteed goes out the window, because everyone else can follow a programme and you aren't just competing against yourself.

This is what we have in a league. There are twenty clubs competing for the most limited of resources. There is no simple solution to getting trophies. It definitely isn't just having a desire for it, and it sure as hell won't be "years out of the Champions League".
That’s a really good analysis of the simplistic answers to which the caf, though not only the caf, is drawn. Nonetheless, don’t you think the OP raises any valid points?
 
This is right at all. With the right people in place the club could be winning leagues again and still kick back the 20-30m a year to the Glazers.

Getting the wrong manager's and players in and just being crap at the football side of the business is the issue here. We've seen some improvements on that side and hopefully with Woodward gone we'll see things improve further and we can begin to approach things how a properly run club would.

Besides we'll never be rid of the Glazers and certainly not on our terms. The value of the club is so high, I can't see why anyone would want to buy it.
 
https://www.skysports.com/football/...rcelona-and-arsenal-for-net-spend-over-decade

"In terms of net expenditure, United have outspent fellow powerhouse clubs Manchester City (£826.6m), Paris Saint-Germain (£790.4m) and Barcelona (£546m) - all of whom have won five or more league titles during that period, compared with United's sole title in 2012/13"

We spent the most over the last decade in Europe.

The problem with the club is the incompetent people running the football side of things for the last decade.

It's shameful that now we even struggle to finish Top 4.
 
Here’s a hot take. People that want things they like, for example a game, a movie series, a tv show or a football club, to fail and become unprofitable, so that things can be “shaken up” aka done in a manner that they prefer, are idiots. No thought is given whatsoever to if this failure can lead to something that is impossible to come back from in the long term.
 
Is anyone else bored of debating the rights and wrongs of the club? The club is in need of a major overhaul if it is to compete with City, Chelsea or Liverpool. Will it happen? Probably not. So what can you do?
 


Think this blows this theory out the water. If you’re outspending literally everyone, you should be winning everything. Or at the very least a trophy every year.
 


Think this blows this theory out the water. If you’re outspending literally everyone, you should be winning everything. Or at the very least a trophy every year.


It's the very large and obvious elephant in the room for those who peddle the theory that United's owners are simply content to sit back, spend a pittance (just enough to keep things floating), and then reap the dividends.

In short, the evidence clearly doesn't back up the theory.

The problem with United's owners is not that they ultimately are more interested in money than success on the pitch (they obviously are).

United have wasted money - in the extreme - ever since Fergie retired. That should be the starting point for any objective analysis. Not that the owners have been penny pinching.
 
The issue hasn't been that the Glazers haven't spent on the squad. The issue has been that the footballing decisions here have been taken by people who have no idea about football.

Look at the managerial succession - by doing so, you're forcing yourself into a major 2-3 year rebuild.

Then there is the obsession with marquee signings - when it's been established time and again that it's more important to upgrade the weakest position than upgrading a position where you're doing fine with an elite/WC player. We did this with ADM, Falcao, Ronaldo.

And lastly is the fact that the club needs to be willing to make one final signing in the same window if the project is on the verge of completion. We needed to sign a DM this summer, but we didn't. Ole lost his job, and whoever is the next manager will be looking at a bigger rebuild. Same thing happened with LVG when we should have signed Mane/Pedro/Muller/ whoever the club thought was the best option. And even though signings may not work out, but atleast dont be left with "What If.." scenarios, especially when you're this close.

And lastly is the stupid briefings and blame game that the club is involved in whenever things go south. Get the house in order and control the leaks as all that makes a bad situation much much worse
 
That’s a really good analysis of the simplistic answers to which the caf, though not only the caf, is drawn. Nonetheless, don’t you think the OP raises any valid points?
Thanks.

Don't think so, no. There aren't many points in there anyway. A bit of trite, a bit of hyperbole and then a ludicrous solution. There's supposed to be a "boardroom level outrage". What that is or how it would manifest itself to the public is anybody's guess.
The dressing room is full of egos. If I had a penny every time someone mentioned egos in their 'analysis' on football forums everywhere, I'd be a rich man. It doesn't mean anything. It's trite that's repeated everywhere because it takes little effort to assert, and it's not falsifiable. What would it mean if it were true? Did we not have a dressing room filled with egos in the most successful period the club has ever had? Were Schmeichel, Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo not huge fecking egos? Yeah that dressing room is full of egos I tell ya. Also a lot of the players seem to have skulls as well, and you will find a lot of limbs in that dressing room too.

It's the wages that supposedly created these egos. Of course, whenever there is even the slightest hint of a negotiation process over someone's wages (whether he's at the club or is part of a transfer negotiation), you will see a clamour from fans to just "give him everything he asks for"; "don't be penny pinching"; "it's not your money" and so forth. If you choose not to spend money as an owner, you are greedy and not ambitious enough, and if you do choose to spend money, than you are not being ruthless enough, which in this perverse version also means you are aren't ambitious enough. The reason both critiques can sound compelling in someone's head even though it's completely contradictory, is because you are criticising someone who doesn't really have a voice, so whatever you impugn them with can stick and it won't be subject to a rebuttal. It's lazy, it's boring to read, though apparently a thrill to write non stop.

Then at the end there's a rhetorical question (no we are not confident), followed by a bizarre, out of the blue, 'solution' that isn't even elaborated (perhaps for the best though).

If there be any valid points in there, they are absolutely beyond my abilities of excavation.
 
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Our issue isn’t spending money, it’s spending money appallingly with no plan or structure in place. It’s in not handing over the football business to football men.

You can blame the Glazers for that much, but beyond that, it’s just a false conflation, no matter how much we dislike their ultimate ambition of rinsing the club for their own gain.
 
But far too often, we have bought players based on emotions and not always logic.

Many times we've heard that players are bought first and foremost for their commercial viability. Woodward wet his pants when we signed Pogba because our social media hits skyrocketed. I think Ole was appointed full-time based on emotion after the win in Paris, when we should have waited until the end of the season. A lot of what we do makes no sense.
 
Many times we've heard that players are bought first and foremost for their commercial viability. Woodward wet his pants when we signed Pogba because our social media hits skyrocketed. I think Ole was appointed full-time based on emotion after the win in Paris, when we should have waited until the end of the season. A lot of what we do makes no sense.

I'm under the impression that our mega contract with Adidas drove that deal.
 
All we need is a good manager at the right time.

Every single one has been poor.