United, football, mental health, and yet another United thread...

It would be an interesting exercise to make a list of which players in our current squad could take a full on, face melting, hairdrying from Fergie and turn around their form afterwards, like his players used to do back in the day.

Actually, probably not even just our players, but all players playing for a top 6 team.
 
Withnail said:
Well 'just get on with it' being a trope of what not to say to someone suffering with mental health was a massive clue.
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I didn't actually say that. I said: 'you have to get on with it at one point'. That is true for everything you go through in life. Some things you need to get on with sooner than others. But you need to get on with it eventually; doing anything other than that will only end in bad things.

'Getting on with it' is a part of life; life does not wait for you. People might find that cold, but I think there are a lot of people who need a firm push rather than an accepting attitude when dealing with their problems. I think it is actually worse to say anything different. There is no sitting on the fence: either you 'get on with it at one point' or you give up. Which would you choose?

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In the end, though, it is an assumption that Rashford has mental health issues. Nobody knows whether his poor performances are anything to do with that. And can people be constantly expected to think of mental health issues whenever a player goes through bad form? Why has nothing been mentioned for Kane in that case, or any other player going through a bad period? You cannot constantly speculate over what player is currently going through what in their life. It is absurd, especially when they might not be dealing with anything in the first place.

But, even if it is mental health issues, does that automatically warrant sympathy? The term seems to be very broad. For instance, if it was that he does not enjoy/hates playing football at the moment due to building frustration, would it still be cold to say 'get on with it'?

I don't think so. Sometimes you have to look at the positives. In this case, he can quit his job and have no financial worries for the rest of his life. Most people do not have that security in such a situation, which is why I always find it weird that some people dismiss money in a conversation of mental health. Though it does not fix everything, it does give far more freedom and flexibility in life. Rashford has many choices that most other people will never have. Most people would need to deal with dislike of the job, worry of not getting another job, and not being able to afford the bills.
 
DickDastardly said:
Yeah, maybe so, but that wasn't what i was aiming for.

We didn't know shit about our players until the age of social media.

Just ten years ago we lost the title on the final day of the season....you punched the wall and moved on.
Sure, you read about it the next day in the papers, maybe read an online article about it and that's it.
Moving on.

We didn't have a clue what Cleverley or Anderson were doing outside of the pitch. Nor did I care. Nor did they.

Were they depressed? Did Anderson have a eating disorder? Feck do i care.

Perform on the pitch or move on.

Nowdays is all too personal. Marcus is feeding the poor. Good for you. You're a good kid.
Could you play football now?

I kinda miss the ruthlesness. Perform or die.
Well, not die, but, get out of the way then.
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Yeah, you're right, there is the double edge to the sword of being a brand with millions of followers alright.
 
Ali Dia said:
well said. people are reaching as they always do when it comes to certain players.
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Everyone's reaching. The people calling our players lazy are reaching. The ones saying that they've downed tools or are divas are reaching. Discussing the possibility of it being a mental health issue for a lot of our players doesn't just suddenly get washed away by someone pointing out that I'm reaching, when other threads are free to make their own assumptions (such as yourself this evening, who is claiming Rashford is only interested in his PR, has no pride and doesn't want to work hard).

On the other note; "when it comes to certain players". It's already been made clear that this thread is about the entirety of the squad and it's getting a bit tiring having to point that out to people who haven't bothered to read the OP or any of the subsequent replies.

DickDastardly said:
I kinda miss the ruthlesness. Perform or die.
Well, not die, but, get out of the way then.
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You're completely right about the social media aspect but I was wondering about this bit myself earlier. Even under Fergie we didn't have this attitude either, did we? There's numerous accounts from former players who highlight how amazing he was at man management, and how to handle different personalities. Some needed the hairdryer treatment, others got an arm around the shoulder.
 
I think Rashford’s PR team pushed him in to deep with the whole save the children thing, going up against PM’s, getting MBE’s and such. Sure he probably wanted to do something but he’s now seen as some kind of champion for the poor, as well as having to play for Manchester United must be a real head feck.
 
If it's a mental problem you would think someone at the club would notice and give him time to sort himself out (with help from mental health professionals), instead of continuing to hang him out to dry.

Mental health is not an excuse for him to continue underperforming on the pitch.
 
Deery said:
I think Rashford’s PR team pushed him in to deep with the whole save the children thing, going up against PM’s, getting MBE’s and such. Sure he probably wanted to do something but he’s now seen as some kind of champion for the poor, as well as having to play for Manchester United must be a real head feck.
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He saved the children but he lost himself :(
 
DickDastardly said:
Yeah, maybe so, but that wasn't what i was aiming for.

We didn't know shit about our players until the age of social media.

Just ten years ago we lost the title on the final day of the season....you punched the wall and moved on.
Sure, you read about it the next day in the papers, maybe read an online article about it and that's it.
Moving on.

We didn't have a clue what Cleverley or Anderson were doing outside of the pitch. Nor did I care. Nor did they.

Were they depressed? Did Anderson have a eating disorder? Feck do i care.

Perform on the pitch or move on.

Nowdays is all too personal. Marcus is feeding the poor. Good for you. You're a good kid.
Could you play football now?

I kinda miss the ruthlesness. Perform or die.
Well, not die, but, get out of the way then.
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Well said. Much better to not follow the social media too closely. I do follow bits of course, but I pay very little attention to it. It’s obviously totally contrived. All PR is. It’s all just selling you something at the end of the day. I just want us to get back to playing well again and Rashford is one of the biggest problems in the team for whatever reason. I’m only here for the football.
 
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If he reads this he might be shocked to hear from United fans that he has mental health issues.
 
If Rashford is depressed, no coaching is going to help him. He shouldn't be playing. Whatever it is, it's really affecting his game and he should get some time off. If he's suffering mentally and he's not been told he has to take some time out, there is something seriously wrong with this club. Anybody telling someone that's depressed to toughen up is a fecking idiot.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
You're completely right about the social media aspect but I was wondering about this bit myself earlier. Even under Fergie we didn't have this attitude either, did we? There's numerous accounts from former players who highlight how amazing he was at man management, and how to handle different personalities. Some needed the hairdryer treatment, others got an arm around the shoulder.
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Oh he got it wrong so many times.....

Yeah, he did good with Ronaldo and nurtured Wayne....but they were kids with fecking "i'm gonna make it and nobody gonna stop me" attitude.

He was adaptable for sure, he knew what Cristiano needed or what Ryan needeed, but he was still a no nonsense guy.
You start fecking up - you get a boot chucked in your face.

Highly doubt an old scottish fecker would buy into the "mental health" issues or Jlingz "fashion projects".
 
Deery said:
Yeah I very much doubt he has depression tbh..
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Who knows, but it's a big leap for us to take. That said I still think the personal attacks on players is absurd, some of them may have mental health issues, so to be safe don't be cnut to them.
 
I know some sports psychologists through my line of work and I've asked them before to explain exercises they go through with players in bad form. It was really interesting listening to the things they do to help and also the frameworks used to develop it all (ACT being one I remember). Some of them were top level, one worked with Southampton's first team.

Anyway we've got a new guy in for psychology stuff and hopefully he'll be working with the team if there are issues. To my knowledge, we only had a guy with the academy before he joined.
 
moses said:
Who knows, but it's a big leap for us to take. That said I still think the personal attacks on players is absurd, some of them may have mental health issues, so to be safe don't be cnut to them.
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Yeah, that’s the nature of the beast, it’s like that video of the warrior guy just turning up to matches hurling horrendous abuse at players because he can some cnuts about.
 
And to be honest mr.Pigeon, when i read the title, i thought it was about us - the fans, and how United are giving us mental health problems.

I love the club, love the players no matter how they perform, and the social media insults are completely over the top.

Here is to hoping they all get a long social media detox and return to football and performing on the pitch.

That goes to the club as a whole.

Each day we look less and less like a football club.

And yes, if we already don't have one - hire a fecking psychiatrist. God knows we all need treatment, why should our players be any different.
 
I agree with the OP many of the comments are embarrassing. Criticise players performances which is objective but much of the comments towards Rashford are catered around personal insults.

When you consider the size of the club, the expectation and the demand in the pressure to be consistent it is unfathomable. Not surprising many players can perhaps struggle to adapt.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Respectfully, I disagree. None of us would have to deal with the spotlight these players are under.

Here's a comparison; my old workplace was the "boring business" equivalent of United. Used to be great and suddenly the CEO left (well, he was caught fiddling the finances but you know....he was still gone). Suddenly, with no real direction, everything went to shit. Badly. And it was shit for years, because someone new would turn up and start changing things, and then they would go only to be placed with someone else who changed things. Eventually people went from being prideful and motivated into shells who were finding their old colleagues being replaced with others who, once the honeymoon period was over, turning into the same.

I had people on my team who came in to the office like they had just found out their entire family had died. They hated coming in. But what else could they do? They wanted purpose at work, and they hoped it would get better eventually even though there was no real glimmer of hope anywhere.

Those team members were able to get sick lines really quickly and the company HR didn't dare try and complain about it otherwise I'd chase then around the building with a fecking shoe. If they needed support they go it, and then they could come back. Some didn't. Our team lost one person over the years, which was seen as a success compared to other areas where entire swathes of people retired early or even chose unemployment over what the place had become under their management.

If Rashford just leaves tomorrow where does he go? Does he retire, when all he's probably wanted since he was a kid was the play football? Maybe he doesn't want to leave his boyhood club? Maybe he, like most of our team, hope it gets better. Maybe someone up top needs to make changes. I hope Rangnick is the person who is doing that, maybe we'll see in the near future. We desperately need leaders. I know I'm making a lot of guesses here but I guess everyone is...


Said it better than myself in half of the time!
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I do like your office analogy, very relevant.
 
Lecland07 said:
I didn't actually say that. I said: 'you have to get on with it at one point'. That is true for everything you go through in life. Some things you need to get on with sooner than others. But you need to get on with it eventually; doing anything other than that will only end in bad things.

'Getting on with it' is a part of life; life does not wait for you. People might find that cold, but I think there are a lot of people who need a firm push rather than an accepting attitude when dealing with their problems. I think it is actually worse to say anything different. There is no sitting on the fence: either you 'get on with it at one point' or you give up. Which would you choose?

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In the end, though, it is an assumption that Rashford has mental health issues. Nobody knows whether his poor performances are anything to do with that. And can people be constantly expected to think of mental health issues whenever a player goes through bad form? Why has nothing been mentioned for Kane in that case, or any other player going through a bad period? You cannot constantly speculate over what player is currently going through what in their life. It is absurd, especially when they might not be dealing with anything in the first place.

But, even if it is mental health issues, does that automatically warrant sympathy? The term seems to be very broad. For instance, if it was that he does not enjoy/hates playing football at the moment due to building frustration, would it still be cold to say 'get on with it'?

I don't think so. Sometimes you have to look at the positives. In this case, he can quit his job and have no financial worries for the rest of his life. Most people do not have that security in such a situation, which is why I always find it weird that some people dismiss money in a conversation of mental health. Though it does not fix everything, it does give far more freedom and flexibility in life. Rashford has many choices that most other people will never have. Most people would need to deal with dislike of the job, worry of not getting another job, and not being able to afford the bills.
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Well Rashford quite clearly is getting on with it seeing as he's training and playing matches but it doesn't seem to be working as it rarely does if you're forcing it.

Kane looks like he's in a bit of a decline and there have been signs of that coming for a season or two which can happen at his age. He's looked leggy, lacking pace and was obviously affected by the proposed move to City but I didn't get the impression that there was anything going on beyond that.

Rashford on the other hand physically seems fine but to me he looks despondent and not switched on, hence the speculation.

As for the last point, bringing up his bank balance is an odd one for me, and I fundamentally disagree with your point. A lack of money can be a cause of stress but having a lot of money doesn't necessarily alleviate stress or depression and being super wealthy brings its own pressures.

Phrases like focus on the positives and get on with it aren't really going to help someone with mental health issues and can be counter-productive because if you're in a negative frame of mind it's very easy to flip that and convince yourself that you don't have any right to feel down because others have harder lives.
 
Eyepopper said:
It would be an interesting exercise to make a list of which players in our current squad could take a full on, face melting, hairdrying from Fergie and turn around their form afterwards, like his players used to do back in the day.

Actually, probably not even just our players, but all players playing for a top 6 team.
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But Sir Alex was very well respected because he could adjust his approach and temperament depending on the profile of the individual he was dealing with. Ferdinand makes a very good point about this on his podcast using Cantona as an example, a foundation of Sir Alex's success was catered around his ability to manage the person before the player.

I actually reckon it's due to not having a real leader in these moments why many players have drowned under the heavy expectation and pressure of playing for United in recent years. Improper leadership has cost the club far much more than just domestic success.
 
If other plays like Rashford for a long time they will be called lazy, selfish, etc, and rightfully so. People have been calling Pogba and Martial lazy (including our legend) and analyzing their movement to death. People also have been calling Ronaldo selfish for shooting from everywhere since forever.

So I only want to ask @Mr Pigeon - if I am still allowed to call him lazy and selfish and should be dropped from the squad for a while or are they forbidden?
 
passing-wind said:
I agree with the OP many of the comments are embarrassing. Criticise players performances which is objective but much of the comments towards Rashford are catered around personal insults.

When you consider the size of the club, the expectation and the demand in the pressure to be consistent it is unfathomable. Not surprising many players can perhaps struggle to adapt.
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And should be moved on and players who can adapt be brought in.
 
To me it seems worse to assume someone is suffering with mental health issues on the back of feckall.
 
kthanksbye said:
To me it seems worse to assume someone is suffering with mental health issues on the back of feckall.
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Worse than calling him lazy and a shit player who doesn't care? How do you work that one out?

Whether he does or he doesn't the vitriol aimed at a lot of our players is excessive and pretty disgusting.
 
redcafe_reader said:
If other plays like Rashford for a long time they will be called lazy, selfish, etc, and rightfully so. People have been calling Pogba and Martial lazy (including our legend) and analyzing their movement to death. People also have been calling Ronaldo selfish for shooting from everywhere since forever.

So I only want to ask @Mr Pigeon - if I am still allowed to call him lazy and selfish and should be dropped from the squad for a while or are they forbidden?
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Of course you're not forbidden, why would you be? It's an open forum.

Oh, I get it. Instead of tackling the issue I'm talking about you've resorted to whataboutism. 4D chess master, I see...

This is one of the major issues. "He's lazy, he's stupid, he doesn't care." Etc. But if someone says that it might be something else like, say, maybe, possible, mental health, then suddenly it's crass and offensive to jump to conclusions.

We're all jumping to conclusions. Look at the entire forum for other options.
 
Ayoba said:
I'd add Maguire to your list. The amount of vitriol he gets, yet he's never said anything against the club. I guess it's his fault he cost 80m
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Don’t care how much he costs. His poor performances are the problem, not the fee, and would still be a problem if we got him on a free.
 
passing-wind said:
But Sir Alex was very well respected because he could adjust his approach and temperament depending on the profile of the individual he was dealing with. Ferdinand makes a very good point about this on his podcast using Cantona as an example, a foundation of Sir Alex's success was catered around his ability to manage the person before the player.

I actually reckon it's due to not having a real leader in these moments why many players have drowned under the heavy expectation and pressure of playing for United in recent years. Improper leadership has cost the club far much more than just domestic success.
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This is sort of what I'm getting at, of course Fergie had those he put an arm around, but they were in the minority over the course of his time, and they were surrounded by those who could face, and handle, the hair dryer.

Who, in the current squad, could deal with the hair dryer?

It seems they all need a cuddle before they can play a basic pass.
 
Jericho said:
Don’t care how much he costs. His poor performances are the problem, not the fee, and would still be a problem if we got him on a free.
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I believe they're sarcastically referring to the fact that Maguire's price tag is a source of contention and is bandied out quite frequently on here and twitter etc as a stick to beat him with. He wasn't worth it but that's the board's fault.
 
Their mental health affects ours unfortunately. But I can understand the feeling of hopelessness some of them could be experiencing. They probably feel like they're talented enough to achieve something with their club and had several false of dawns where there seemed to be a lot of hope and bright future ahead. First when Jose joined although it was short lived and later when Ole came and dubbed the perfect manager for United because the players liked him and he tried to replicate Sir Alex, yet both of those period ended up in an extreme failure where the players looked clueless on the pitch. It's a different feeling than just losing finals, it's much worse to know that your team is failing at the basics. Now we're back to square one again. Another manager, another style he'd like to implement can they handle another big transition with Ralf in charge? I can understand the doubts in them after being put in such period, especially Rashford who's gone through 4 managers. They need to be professional and do what the manager instruct them regardless. But Iets be honest, those of us who still work/have worked at a job probably know how it feels, we can claim to be professional but even so we're not robots. Sometimes that feeling of hopelessness is just there and it seems like the only way to fix it is to find another one.

The cultural rebuild that people said happened under Ole wasn't exactly a success I'd say because the new manager will find a squad lacking of confidence and worse than their former self. It's a really hard problem to fix. The culture can only be as good as the personnel.
 
Said it before but I pin this mostly on the club and his upgrade in status which came under Ole. It’s the emperors new clothes and it’s not just rashford tbf. They are paid and treated like world beating serial champions league winners but the reality is most of the squad have now won virtually f all. Must start to create cognitive dissonance at some point as the reality fails to align with the ‘fantasy’. Just a bit of a train wreck now as fans will pile in on the poor performances, Doesn’t help that players have had ex pundits running them down as well and a few changes in management styles. Seems like a weird and slightly toxic vicious cycle the club’s in and they should have played hardball with the players at contract times, you’re playing like players that are scraping top four so should be paid accordingly. It’s a sort of novel situation as we can afford to pay them like cl winners because of the strength of the brand, but this has really warped everything esp with some of the contracts like rashford and lingard. Now we have a divided team of egos and the fans aren’t even on all on their side, All boils down to club that doesn’t give a flying feck about football so much as their luxury brand and could argue they’re kind of getting what they deserve.I’m no fan of abramovic or the entirely shady way he made his money, but at least he’s clearly a massive football fan and you can see this bearing fruit through their academy.

Sad to see Rashford like this and I think the status is like a weight around his neck tbh. Coupled with his fame and exploits off the pitch must all be very confusing. He’s like a cl winner megastar but with no actual trophy. Obviously right attitude to not pile into him, but you can’t really expect people not to as they just will. Hopefully RR can make some inroads into getting the club structure on right track so there’s not this disconnect with reality. Seems like a right royal mess atm. Can’t really blame rashford and his agents for going after every penny that’s just their job. Could you imagine it happening under SAF though? No chance. He’s still a super talented player, just burdened with a megastar status that he probably knows on some level is unmerited,
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Of course you're not forbidden, why would you be? It's an open forum.

Oh, I get it. Instead of tackling the issue I'm talking about you've resorted to whataboutism. 4D chess master, I see...
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Well, thank you, because I was under an impression that if I called Rashford lazy or selfish I may be a terrible person and don't have any sympathy for people with mental heal issues. Thankfully that's not the case.

I don't think I can tackle the issue you are talking about since I am not a psychologist and I don't feel like diagnosing Rashford as having mental health issues help, especially when we can only watch him on football. Look at it this way, if he is just lazy and selfish, and we talk about the possibility that he's having mental health issues, what are we implying about people who actually suffer from that?

And if he actually has mental issues he should stay away from the game and get treated, then come back when he's healthy. We and other clubs have let go of players with injury issues, physically or mentally. That's just football at the highest level.

You can call my post whataboutism, that's your right of course. For me, I just notice the difference in how some "fans" treat our players. Coincidentally, the player that has the most "fans" jump through hoops to excuse their performance and attitude, is the player with the best PR.
 
Withnail said:
Worse than calling him lazy and a shit player who doesn't care? How do you work that one out?

Whether he does or he doesn't the vitriol aimed at a lot of our players is excessive and pretty disgusting.
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Yes, somehow it is worse, if we're not going to discuss about a player's performance based on HOW HE IS PERFORMING, then how else do you propose we do that?
Let's not become mental health and body language experts and stick to something that we understand very little of anyway, the football.

I agree that sometimes the criticism gets over the top, but the fans are allowed to be emotional, I don't go to match threads but in general even when the criticism is sharp, it's usually deserved.
I love Rash to bits which is why I avoid talking about his performances at all, but that's just me.
 
Its fascinating how mental illness only seem to affect Manchester United. The likes of Liverpool, Bayern and co performances aren't affected by it. It also seem to only hit English players as well. The likes of Martial and Pogba are just deemed lazy. Maybe we should stir away from signing them as its evident that we can't provide the mental support these vulnerable players demand and need to do well.
 
The assumption his poor performances must be down to mental health issues is to give fans who are resistant to admitting they were wrong an excuse as to why the player they rated so highly has been disappointing.

Attributing mental health issues on the basis of that and that alone isn’t as altruistic or supportive as those peddling it think it is

“Doesn’t track back? Have I misjudged his talents? No, impossible. He must be mentally unwell. Yes, that’ll be it. I wasn’t wrong at all”

Fan’s equivalent of munchausen by proxy
 
Didnt watch a game, so dunno what went in the match day thread, was it that bad? Not gonna comment much on the topic, beside double standards on this forum when it comes to this thing, some info came out about their mental health or we are just guessing?
 
Many players have regressed a lot from last year and it must be a psychological thing. Losing the EL final and later seeing the manager sacked probably made them feel like losers and confidence is at an all time low.

It's not a new thing with some people seeming to not understand that players are humans with emotions and the role of a fan is to support, especially during hard times, rather then throw abuse all around. Being mean and disrespectful to players and managers doesn't make you have standards, it just makes you an idiot.

Social media gives unprecedented access to the players and staff and the worst of fans have a laud voice that imo makes it more difficult for teams to regroup. All of this is especially unnerving when it's directed at people that we know 100% are giving all they can and genuinely love the club: Rashford and Ole were and are abused by some of our "fans" and it's even seen as some sort of badge of honor to throw vitriolic hate.

Some people are just huge dicks and United seems to have more of them then most clubs, in online at least.
 
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