United contact Gary Neville and other ex players in the media

[Adnan]

Edwards was ridiculed because the Premier League status quo and the media couldn't accept a "Continental" model would work. Not because he ever did a bad job.

My point wasn't really about those two, they're just the two most prominent DoFs in the Premier League. My point is, we haven't been well-run and Woodward has made so many bad decisions it's almost beyond parody.

You need experienced people with clarity of vision and an understanding of the mechanics of the game to come in and set the agenda.

I fail to see how Rio, Scholes, Neville et al and in any way qualified to offer any advice

It's easy to say this now about Edwards but he was a laughing stock among Liverpool fans when Rodgers was fired. And I agree he wasn't to blame for the mistakes of the manager who was allowed to make decisions independently from Liverpool's recruitment department as outlined in the below article. And it was the arrival of Klopp who gave Edwards the power to make the calls in recruitment, and not the Liverpool owners. Because Klopp realised that he needed structural support of a high level to succeed, and he knew his place as the head coach and not Manager.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...w-liverpools-transfer-committee-went-16479508

I agree we need people who understand the modern concepts in the game today. And I do believe we have those people at the club. People like Marwood and Edwards weren't more qualified than Murtough and Bout, but the chaps at Liverpool and City were given autonomy on the football side to streamline operations, working towards a common goal with the head coach.

Listening to Scholes, Neville, Keane etc, it's very clear they're living in the 90s and i'm hopeful we never have the misfortune of seeing them on the recruitment side. We already have Phelan at the club who in his own words doesn't believe in using computers, analysis, data etc, and points to his own eyes to justify his opinions. And we had Phelan sitting on the transfer committee, and we ended up signing his former player Harry Maguire.

The only ex player who I've listened to and thought he understands the modern concepts is Darren Fletcher. He's young and could be taught, but the ones above fall into the 'you can't teach a old Dog new tricks' category.

 

[TenonTen]

You only have to listen to these people in the studio to know that they should be kept as far away from the administrative roles as possible.

Diplomatic roles are fine.

Always found some of them to be very biased and partial towards certain people.

 

[Isotope]

You can't argue his work at Salford or his coaching work for the national team is irrelevant.

None is useful to improve United, imho. I think the Club should consult with better people, if that's their main purpose of "reaching out" these ex-.

 

[Gordon Godot]

None is useful to improve United, imho. I think the Club should consult with better people, if that's their main purpose.

100% agreed. Neville is a pundit and failed manager. I like the work they all do at Salford, but its zero relevance to MUFC, zero. What is our obession with old boys, its the same backwards nostalgia trip that locked Liverpool into their wasteland years. We keep doign the same thing and people keep trying to justify it. Fletcher should never have got the technical job, or whatever it is he does and the board and CEO should have thick enough skins to ignore pundits. If they actually made sensible decisions, stopped dithering and actually hire experienced people to build a football structure, then a lot of the criticism would go away. but its typical of the board to care more about PR spin than making proper decisions, and the fact this carries on under the new CEO is exactly why we should never have appointed from within.

 

[Adnan]

I don't think when City bought players is independent of Pep wants. And Atletico's success is down to Simeone, regardless of their DoF. If he leaves, I don't think Atletico continue to be as successful. And United has proven that a Club can be successful with head coach making decisions.

There's just no black and white which one is the best method. If you hire good manager like Fergie, Klopp, Pep, or Simeone, any method is a successful one.

City brought the Barcelona chaps to help Guardiola, because he wanted them there, in his own words.

Simeone definitely has played his part in their recent success but you still need structrual support at a high level to compete with clubs like Barca and Real Madrid.

You can be successful with a Manager but when you entrust a person to head the football department and his position at the club is statistically one that has a short shelf, then I don't believe that's ever a good idea.

 

[Isotope]

City brought the Barcelona chaps to help Guardiola, because he wanted them there, in his own words.

Simeone definitely has played his part in their recent success but you still need structrual support at a high level to compete with clubs like Barca and Real Madrid.

You can be successful with a Manager but when you entrust a person to head the football department and his position at the club is statistically one that has a short shelf, then I don't believe that's ever a good idea.

Agreed that structural support is important. Sorry if i got my point across otherwise. Anyway, I admit that having a good structure where manager can come and go without damaging the CLub is an ideal way. I just think that it's still down to the manager to make the Club successful.

 

[Adnan]

Agreed that structural support is important. Sorry if i got my point across otherwise. Anyway, I admit that having a good structure where manager can come and go without damaging the CLub is an ideal way. I just think that it's still down to the manager to make the Club successful.

I agree mate, the head coach is most important on the football side, and having the sidekicks to support him from the recruitment department is very important also.

 

[VP89]

None is useful to improve United, imho. I think the Club should consult with better people, if that's their main purpose of "reaching out" these ex-.

The logic in reaching out to ex players is more ambassadorial ("building bridges" termed in the tweet) and combined with getting a crux of what the united dressing room should be like. I'm sure there's no remit for transfers or managerial choices or playing style.
And my point re. Neville is he's at least more qualified than Fletcher. I'm not championing Neville for the role either, just saying out of any ex player he's the only one that might have a more credible shout.

 

[Gordon Godot]

The logic in reaching out to ex players is more ambassadorial ("building bridges" termed in the tweet) and combined with getting a crux of what the united dressing room should be like. I'm sure there's no remit for transfers or managerial choices or playing style.
And my point re. Neville is he's at least more qualified than Fletcher. I'm not championing Neville for the role either, just saying out of any ex player he's the only one that might have a more credible shout.

combined with getting a crux of what the united dressing room should be like.

No this is wrong on so many levels. Its years since Neville was in a winning dressing room, its just more of the boot room nostalgia. We dont need Gary to tell the players how to win, many of the current squad have won major trophies. We need to hire a DoF, appoint a CEO who understands football, revamp our scouting (again) and then hire a top manager. Neville, Scholes etc have NOTHIGN to do with this. We also have plenty of ex players as ambassadors. The only ex player we should be speakign to us Van Der Sar, but the board are scared of being shown up by hiring someone who can actually run a football club

 

[VP89]

No this is wrong on so many levels. Its years since Neville was in a winning dressing room, its just more of the boot room nostalgia. We dont need Gary to tell the players how to win, many of the current squad have won major trophies. We need to hire a DoF, appoint a CEO who understands football, revamp our scouting (again) and then hire a top manager. Neville, Scholes etc have NOTHIGN to do with this. We also have plenty of ex players as ambassadors. The only ex player we should be speakign to us Van Der Sar, but the board are scared of being shown up by hiring someone who can actually run a football club

I think we are doing that to be fair. I Would argue the CEO just needs to understand the importance of football, if he doesn't know it inside out himself (I don't think many do). Arnold reportedly does and wants to delegate it to the right people. Murtough is the closest thing to a DoF and the first thing he did was recognize he is not experienced enough, and brought in Rangnick to lean on. And I'm sure we will hire well given the shortlist of candidates.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I think we are doing that to be fair. I Would argue the CEO just needs to understand the importance of football, if he doesn't know it inside out himself (I don't think many do). Arnold reportedly does and wants to delegate it to the right people. Murtough is the closest thing to a DoF and the first thing he did was recognize he is not experienced enough, and brought in Rangnick to lean on. And I'm sure we will hire well given the shortlist of candidates.

ARe doing it? We have hired a technical director, if that is Murtough's role and its explicitly not a DOF, then we have Fletcher, but a bit like Phelan noone seems to know what his job is. We dont have a DoF, but we have one of the best in the business managing the club and then given him a vague consultancy job. In business that means someone who can be got rid of or ignored at any time. After the cultural reset under Ole (stop laughing), we still seem to have a bloated squad, massive wage bill, still pay stupid wages, and still struggle to shift deadwood (linked in no small way to the stupid wages). Plus we have a CEO who learnt at the side of previous one, Ed W, the guy who oversaw and facilitated this chaos. Guess that leaves me in the sceptical camp.

 

[James35]

“Look, the fans listen to you guys and we really need them to keep buying shit, so please stop speaking negatively about us as it’s also hurting all the clueless idiots and fragile egos at the club…”

Can’t wait for the next episode of Incompetent Street.

 

[VP89]

ARe doing it? We have hired a technical director, if that is Murtough's role and its explicitly not a DOF, then we have Fletcher, but a bit like Phelan noone seems to know what his job is. We dont have a DoF, but we have one of the best in the business managing the club and then given him a vague consultancy job. In business that means someone who can be got rid of or ignored at any time. After the cultural reset under Ole (stop laughing), we still seem to have a bloated squad, massive wage bill, still pay stupid wages, and still struggle to shift deadwood (linked in no small way to the stupid wages). Plus we have a CEO who learnt at the side of previous one, Ed W, the guy who oversaw and facilitated this chaos. Guess that leaves me in the sceptical camp.

Do you know the difference between Murtough's role and a DoF role? You can call the role anything you want, it's the remit that matters. His remit is pretty much that of a DoF unless I am mistaken and someone else can correct me on this if I am.

Fletcher it's been reported is on the ground level to ensure the big picture is being appropriately implemented and he can communicate any feedback up the chain whilst being part of the coaching staff in the meantime. I don't think Fletcher is related to the DoF position, he's got a role with the club that's more related to the youth/academy transition to senior squads. Why are you bringing him up?

 

[JanK]

Vibes FC all over again... but why?

It's like keeping ourselves connected with the past and not looking into the future. Seems like the club is so afraid of losing the DNA, although the DNA is one of the strongest in the league. So... why bother? Focus on winning the titles and that's all. That's all United is - promote youngsters, give youth a chance, never say die attitude and win points at Fergie time.

In order to win titles, we need players&staff with elite mentality and skillset. And everything follows suit.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Do you know the difference between Murtough's role and a DoF role? You can call the role anything you want, it's the remit that matters. His remit is pretty much that of a DoF unless I am mistaken and someone else can correct me on this if I am.

Fletcher it's been reported is on the ground level to ensure the big picture is being appropriately implemented and he can communicate any feedback up the chain whilst being part of the coaching staff in the meantime. I don't think Fletcher is related to the DoF position, he's got a role with the club that's more related to the youth/academy transition to senior squads. Why are you bringing him up?

Can you point us all to any formal description of Murtough's role and explicitly what he is and is not responsible for? Maybe it exists but I havent seen it? To be fair he's not been in that role long to judge properly, but lets see. Which also begs the question why was noone in this role for so long??? His experience is OK but once again very much like our new CEO, nearly all internal. And again I ask where the great track record of success is from teh club to justify all these internal appointments? Pretty sure that is not somethign I missed.

As for Fletcher, he is cetnral to this whole nostalgia trip the club is currently stuck in. Noone knew quite what Phelan's job was, but I would have thought it was in part what you descride for Fletcher. And what experience did Darren have for this role, over say Nicky Butt or any one we could have poached from a Chelsea, City etc? Pretty much zero. So again, the pattern of underwhelming appointments continues. Of course, it might just work, but look up Einstein's quote on the definition of insanity to understand how bizzare what the club is doing truly is.

 

[VP89]

Can you point us all to any formal description of Murtough's role and explicitly what he is and is not responsible for? Maybe it exists but I havent seen it? To be fair he's not been in that role long to judge properly, but lets see. Which also begs the question why was noone in this role for so long??? His experience is OK but once again very much like our new CEO, nearly all internal. And again I ask where the great track record of success is from teh club to justify all these internal appointments? Pretty sure that is not somethign I missed.

Although Murtough was announced pre Woodward leaving, the need for a better structure was known at the club. Now with Woody gone from 1st Feb, Arnold as new CEO wants this structure to be a trusted one by footballing matters and reportedly wants to delegate the responsibility to Murtough as a result.

From the Athletic article https://theathletic.com/news/manchester-united-football-director-murtough/HBp8tyAnm8AH/
" Murtough’s new role will see him having overall leadership for operations and strategy on the football side of United." I urge you to tell me how this differs materially to a remit of a DoF?

He is in my opinion a smart guy and self aware enough to know he needs to lean on someone with pedigree. Hence Rangnick: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-transfers-john-murtough-22529267

Murtough had been "building relations" across Europe for a couple years and spent time studying Rangnick's work with Leipzig in 2019. They had a pre-existing relationship and it's very evident that the 2 year consultancy is going to be beneficial to Murtough to leverage as they work together in building much better operations, transfer policy and managerial selection.

Now I'm not saying "check us out, we'll be back to winning" already. But I dismiss this notion that we dont have a structural plan going forward and that Murtough is in some arbitrary meaningless role that's nothing like a DoF.

As for Fletcher, he is cetnral to this whole nostalgia trip the club is currently stuck in. Noone knew quite what Phelan's job was, but I would have thought it was in part what you descride for Fletcher. And what experience did Darren have for this role, over say Nicky Butt or any one we could have poached from a Chelsea, City etc? Pretty much zero. So again, the pattern of underwhelming appointments continues. Of course, it might just work, but look up Einstein's quote on the definition of insanity to understand how bizzare what the club is doing truly is.

You're just angry that an ex player has a job. You don't stop to think whether he might be good at it.
I don't know why keep mentioning Phelan. Murtough himself has explained what Fletcher does. Phelan is surplus to requirements I agree, but Fletcher has a remit. And why are you complaining about his lack of experience? He was a coach for the club since Jan 2021, so he's been here for a year as a coach, over a decade as a player from the reserves, and you're asking why he should be looking at academy transition into the main squad? How is he less than qualified for this role?

You're just being angry with ex players in the role for the sake of it now.

 

[Bebestation]

Don't have a problem with this.

It's no different to asking fans what they would do to improve United.

Instead of asking Redcafe about how to improve all the things they moan about - they go and ask the ex players instead.

 

[Gordon Godot]

You're just being angry with ex players in the role for the sake of it now.
[/QUOTE]
Wow, I think I will give up there. I actually agre with some of what you say but frankly this is insulting. If you cant see the pattern from Giggs to Ole to Fletcher, to meeting Neville for a coffee, then you are the dim one.

Look at the top teams in Europe and show me where they shoe horn players into vague roles with next to no experience. And what exactly was Phelan doing at the same time? Again, if we want to hire an ex player lets get Van Der Sar. But I guess that would upset the apple cart of sponsor deals and force the Glazers to put football first. We couldnt have that now could we

 

[Gordon Godot]

From the Athletic article https://theathletic.com/news/manchester-united-football-director-murtough/HBp8tyAnm8AH/
" Murtough’s new role will see him having overall leadership for operations and strategy on the football side of United." I urge you to tell me how this differs materially to a remit of a DoF?

He is in my opinion a smart guy and self aware enough to know he needs to lean on someone with pedigree. Hence Rangnick: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-transfers-john-murtough-22529267

If you want to take club PR fed to friendly journos then good luck. Not like we havent been burnt by that before. Anyway, this is getting boring. Lets hope you are right and we will soon be winning FA youth cups and challenging for titles. I have my doubts. I mean, City hired all the best people from Barca so what could Utd do.

 

[Roux]

Contact them about what exactly? Being right? Very strange move.

 

[VP89]

If you want to take club PR fed to friendly journos then good luck. Not like we havent been burnt by that before. Anyway, this is getting boring. Lets hope you are right and we will soon be winning FA youth cups and challenging for titles. I have my doubts. I mean, City hired all the best people from Barca so what could Utd do.

What club PR Feed?
You asked what Murtough has been trusted with and I quoted you the Athletic, a tier one source of information. I referenced Rangnick's remit and his relationship from the Manchester Evening News.

Nothing I said was PR feeds to friendly journalists. If you're going to just dismiss credible outlets because you found an answer you didn't like, don't bother asking where the roles have been written about.

 

[Adnan]

Although Murtough was announced pre Woodward leaving, the need for a better structure was known at the club. Now with Woody gone from 1st Feb, Arnold as new CEO wants this structure to be a trusted one by footballing matters and reportedly wants to delegate the responsibility to Murtough as a result.

From the Athletic article https://theathletic.com/news/manchester-united-football-director-murtough/HBp8tyAnm8AH/
" Murtough’s new role will see him having overall leadership for operations and strategy on the football side of United." I urge you to tell me how this differs materially to a remit of a DoF?

He is in my opinion a smart guy and self aware enough to know he needs to lean on someone with pedigree. Hence Rangnick: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-transfers-john-murtough-22529267

Murtough had been "building relations" across Europe for a couple years and spent time studying Rangnick's work with Leipzig in 2019. They had a pre-existing relationship and it's very evident that the 2 year consultancy is going to be beneficial to Murtough to leverage as they work together in building much better operations, transfer policy and managerial selection.

Now I'm not saying "check us out, we'll be back to winning" already. But I dismiss this notion that we dont have a structural plan going forward and that Murtough is in some arbitrary meaningless role that's nothing like a DoF.


You're just angry that an ex player has a job. You don't stop to think whether he might be good at it.
I don't know why keep mentioning Phelan. Murtough himself has explained what Fletcher does. Phelan is surplus to requirements I agree, but Fletcher has a remit. And why are you complaining about his lack of experience? He was a coach for the club since Jan 2021, so he's been here for a year as a coach, over a decade as a player from the reserves, and you're asking why he should be looking at academy transition into the main squad? How is he less than qualified for this role?

You're just being angry with ex players in the role for the sake of it now.

This is a good post.

The structure at United now is the same as what we see at the top clubs in Europe, if we look at it from the football side of the clubs in question. The difference is that those clubs that have been successful, have had people working on the football side who have been afforded autonomy to make decisions independently from the coaching staff when it comes to recruitment.

What we've done is created a transfer committee and put two factions (recruitment staff v coaching staff) who see things very differently when it comes to recruitment. The likes of Bout, Court and Lawlor are big on data analysis to aid the scouts and make more thorough decisions when it comes to signing players. And then on the other side we had Solskjaer, Phelan and their personal scout Simon Wells, who are three people who either believed in 'who wants it more' or in Phelan's case who believed that his eye sight was superior to data analysis etc. We have the likes of Murtough, Court and now Rangnick who are believers in data to aid the scouts, but if you also then have people who look down upon analytics and use of gadgets, then there's gonna be a spanner in the works. You can't modernise the club with dinosaurs like Phelan who is set in his ways.

Mike Phelan: Explaining his approach to recruitment, Phelan told The Athletic: ‘Technology brings a bit extra. I’ve got to that point in my career where my eyes don’t deceive me. As long as my eyesight is good, I can see what’s going on.

‘There are a lot of people now within the game, because the game can afford it, (for whom) analysis is big: iPads, computers, they all play their part. But a computer has never won a game of football.

‘It is useful but it doesn’t give you a feel for what’s actually going on. It’s easier to present those numbers to a player — kids today understand that world, they want to see how far they’ve run and everybody buys into that. A midfield player now in the Premier League has got to run 14 kilometres, 15 kilometres, which is enormous. But I’ve still got it in the back of my head — why? Why have you got to do that if you can play in a team? Does it get you the outcome you want? Not always.

‘Stats can give you evidence. I prefer to see it. I’m still pen and paper. I’m not on a laptop, press a button and it all comes up to you. I can get somebody to do it.’

https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/08/mike...n-teenager-now-worth-over-90million-15887837/

 

[VP89]

You're just being angry with ex players in the role for the sake of it now.

Wow, I think I will give up there. I actually agre with some of what you say but frankly this is insulting. If you cant see the pattern from Giggs to Ole to Fletcher, to meeting Neville for a coffee, then you are the dim one.

Look at the top teams in Europe and show me where they shoe horn players into vague roles with next to no experience. And what exactly was Phelan doing at the same time? Again, if we want to hire an ex player lets get Van Der Sar. But I guess that would upset the apple cart of sponsor deals and force the Glazers to put football first. We couldnt have that now could we
[/QUOTE]
The pattern is not consistent. Fletcher isn't an assistant manager, he is a coach that oversees development from academy to the first team, and as such is qualified for the role.

I am not going to get angry at Fletcher being in a role he could be well suited to just because Giggs is deemed to be incompetent. That would be dim, as you put it.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

In the same way no one at Amazon would ask the owner of a corner shop how to sell things, Manchester United shouldn't be asking owners of a league 2 club how to run a football team.

 

[crossy1686]

Contact them about what exactly? Being right? Very strange move.

"Yeah, gonna be honest, we don't know what to do anymore. What would you suggest at this point? What would Fergie have done? We'd ask him ourselves but he stopped answering the phone ages ago..."

 

[::sonny::]

Salford United