U.S. Presidential Race: Official Thread

Obama or McCain/Democrat or Republican..you decide

  • McCain

    Votes: 14 7.5%

  • Obama

    Votes: 173 92.5%
  • Total voters
    187
  • Poll closed .
Frosty said:
There are American suicide bombers?
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MikeUpNorth said:
That's a pretty ridiculous post.
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Tell me how they are not? Without any of your western rose tinted glasses talking of freedom and democracy?

Your telling me that the americans/Brits illegally fighting in the middle east are not prepared to give up their lives to achieve their aims? What makes them any different to the people they are invading?
 
sammsky1 said:
What makes them any different to the people they are invading?
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They are not deliberately killing themselves in pursuit of martyrdom with the aim of receiving reward in an afterlife. That's your difference. A cause you're willing to die for is not the same as deliberately taking your life (and many others) for a cause.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
They are not deliberately killing themselves in pursuit of martyrdom with the aim of receiving reward in an afterlife. That's your difference. A cause you're willing to die for is not the same as deliberately taking your life (and many others) for a cause.
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Complete bollox and utterly naive. Cant believe you actually write this nonsense and believe it to as you normally have a insightful and intelligent view.

Dying for ones country (in an illegal war) is not matydom?! What exactly is it then? Why do these hillbillies in the army all die for?
 
sammsky1 said:
Complete bollox and utterly naive. Cant believe you actually write this nonsense and believe it to as you normally have a insightful and intelligent view.
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Thanks. I think. ;)

sammsky1 said:
Dying for ones country (in an illegal war) is not matydom?! What exactly is it then? Why do these hillbillies in the army all die for?
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They do not go there with the intention of dying. Suicide bombers, on the other hand, have death specifically on their list of things to do. To me that is a huge and significant difference.
 
sammsky1 said:
all is fair in love and war ... what do you expect?
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What?

You must see that "USA fundamentalist suicide bombers" does not make sense. Suicide means taking your own life; I don't see any US soldiers taking their own life. Dying as part of war yes, but not deliberately killing themselves as an ideological tactic.
 
sammsky1 said:
Tell me how they are not? Without any of your western rose tinted glasses talking of freedom and democracy?

Your telling me that the americans/Brits illegally fighting in the middle east are not prepared to give up their lives to achieve their aims? What makes them any different to the people they are invading?
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They aren't killing both themselves and others, which makes me question your use of the term 'suicide bombers'. Unless you meant it as a solipsism, in which case you didn't explain yourself.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
What? You must see that "USA fundamentalist suicide bombers" does not make sense. Suicide means taking your own life; I don't see any US soldiers taking their own life. Dying as part of war yes, but not deliberately killing themselves as an ideological tactic.
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You're falling into your own trap of intellectualism for intellectuism's sake. You talk about 'an ideological tactic'. How can you not understand that the western doctrine of domination is a fight for ideology and hence starting an illegal war which will deliberately kill many more civilians than military people is not an act of fundamentalism? I’m sorry, it can’t be argued any other way as was proven in the UK law courts before this war started and we were lied to by our Prime Minister.

Every time one of those cowardly US pilots takes the air in his advanced plane-cum-killing machine and about to kill 100's of innocent people, he is on a suicide mission. Let me put it to you another way: Have you ever considered how oppressed, how desperate a group of people must be when their only line of defense vs. an uninvited illegal army is to kill himself?

To now use a convoluted argument about the merits of differing morality as to a particular soldiers motives is disingenuous and not of relevance.

Anyway, I’m going to stop this now, this thread is about something very different. But like the millions of other people I marched to stop this war from starting. It started and ever since then, I'm ashamed of my country, my government and I grieve everyday for the innocent lives lost. I do not grieve at all for US/UK soldiers lost, wish my taxes were not used to support them and have zero sympathy for this particular cause.

I respectfully disagree with your position and so on that basis; we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Frosty said:
They aren't killing both themselves and others, which makes me question your use of the term 'suicide bombers'. Unless you meant it as a solipsism, in which case you didn't explain yourself.
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perhaps but unwittingly .... that word is too big for me! What does it mean?!

Lets put it another way...

As a soldier, running into battle with bullets and schrapnel flying everywhere, you will do everything to kill your oppenent and accept you may be killed in the process. You have accepted that reality as part of the equation.

The same exists with a suicide bomber, if he could kill his enemy without killing himself I'm sure he would. In his instance, the certainty of death is just much greater (and certain!).

I hate the whole idea of war and personally cant condone any of it. I get irritated when folk try to imply that one tactic (soldiers) has a higher moral ground than another. They are merely different sides of the same awful coin.
 
sammsky1 said:
How can you not understand that the western doctrine of domination is a fight for ideology and hence starting an illegal war which will deliberately kill many more civilians than military people is not an act of fundamentalism?
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That's not the point I am arguing.

sammsky1 said:
Every time one of those cowardly US pilots takes the air in his advanced plane-cum-killing machine and about to kill 100's of innocent people, he is on a suicide mission.
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This is the point I am arguing. He is not on a suicide mission; unless he plans to deliberately kill himself on the flight. This is not a matter of debate; it is a fact.
 
sammsky1 said:
perhaps but unwittingly .... that word is too big for me! What does it mean?!
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Meh, I got confused as well. "Using the word outside of its original meaning" was what I was aiming for, which is ironically what I have just done by using the word "solipsism". Ah well, that's what you get for staring at a computer screen all morning... my brain is fried...
 
jasonrh said:
Let me get this straight.

1) a senior campaign staffer of hers sends out a campaign fundraising email after Iowa called "Stop Barack HUSSEIN Obama". At first they defend him, but as pressure mounts he is fired. This staffer had worked for her for nearly a decade.

2) a senior campaign strategist (strategists are pretty damned high in the totem pole) claims on national tv that "we never know, Obama may have been dealing cocaine in Chicago". He repeated it over and over again even when the media decried his comments. A couple of days later when there was an effect on her poll numbers, he is fired.

3) she calls Obama 'Ken Starr' (a pejorative amongst Democrats) because after she demands he turn over any information at all about Resco, he asks her to release the tax returns and schedules she has promised to release since 2000. In her first Senate campaign, she refused to turn over the records until Rick Lazio turned over his. She then sent someone dressed up as a camp Uncle Sam to follow him around from event to event asking him to release his records. Obama has released his every year since he started serving in the Illinois State Senate.

4) one of his aides calls her a monster off the record, and he lets her go immediately. No media outcry necessary.

The proof is in the pudding. For all of his traditional liberal crap in terms of policy, he can't be matched on the Democrat's side in terms of class.

His aide was right, she is a monster. Democrats are only now finding out what us Republicans have known for 20 years.
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1. That is his name, is it not? If he's ashmaed of the Hussein part, he should have thought about getting rid of it.

2. So he's fired...

3. Again, why should she comply with Obama's requests? If he decides to campaign topless, should she do the same? :confused:

4. So she's fired... same scenario as 2.

It seems you're just anti-Hillary to an extent that you're willing to twist everything in Obama's favour. I just wish the people actually looks at their policy before deciding to vote...
 
sammsky1 said:
perhaps but unwittingly .... that word is too big for me! What does it mean?!

Lets put it another way...

As a soldier, running into battle with bullets and schrapnel flying everywhere, you will do everything to kill your oppenent and accept you may be killed in the process. You have accepted that reality as part of the equation.

The same exists with a suicide bomber, if he could kill his enemy without killing himself I'm sure he would. In his instance, the certainty of death is just much greater (and certain!).
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that's just wrong. where is your logic coming from that a suicide bomber would prefer to live? if they want to live they don't strap bombs to themselves.

soldiers may be killed in combat. the majority of them do not; however, kill themseleves, unlike suicide bombers who do.
 
MrMarcello said:
Left over here is right over there, from what I've come to understand. Europeans get it mixed up when Americans use left and liberal in conjunction.

US politics: right (conservative) and left (liberal).
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True but most Europeans wouldn't call the Dems "left" either. Hell, Hillary IMHO is propably more right-ish than Senator McCain. We're different. ;)
 
A drunk and a bigot - what the US Presidental hopeful HASN'T said about his father...
By SHARON CHURCHER - More by this author »
Last updated at 22:51pm on 27th January 2007 Mail


Top: US senator Barack Obama could be America's first black president. Below: His flawed father, Barack Obama Senior

It is a classic story of the American dream made real: an impoverished Kenyan goatherd rising to become a brilliant Harvard-educated economist.
On the way he fights racial prejudice at home and corruption at work, survives the heartbreak of a broken relationship and, despite it all, leads the fight to rid Africa of its colonial legacy.

This extraordinary story is told by US Presidential hopeful Barack Obama as he recalls the life of the man who inspired him to political success - his father. Mr Obama's book, Dreams From My Father, is flying off the shelves of US book stores, exciting and astonishing readers in equal measure. It is a bestseller, and no wonder - because the story just gets better and better.

Mr Obama is already Democratic Senator for Illinois. Now he is in the running to be the first black President in the country's history. "My story is part of the larger American story," he declared in the electrifying speech that won him his Senate seat just two years ago. "In no other country on Earth is my story even possible."

Many believe Mr Obama is a serious threat to Hillary Clinton's hopes of becoming the Democrats' choice for their next Presidential candidate - and his lovingly written account of the debt he owes his father, also called Barack Obama, will do no harm at all to his Presidential hopes.

Indeed, by offering up a conveniently potted account of his personal history in this way, he might even have made a pre-emptive strike on those sure to pose the awkward questions that inevitably face a serious contender for the White House.

Yet an investigation by The Mail on Sunday has revealed that, for all Mr Obama's reputation for straight talking and the compelling narrative of his recollections, they are largely myth. We have discovered that his father was not just a deeply flawed individual but an abusive bigamist and an egomaniac, whose life was ruined not by racism or corruption but his own weaknesses.

And, devastatingly, the testimony has come from Mr Obama's own relatives and family friends. Charismatic and with movie-star looks, Barack Obama Jnr has managed to steal some of Hillary Clinton's most influential supporters in the two weeks since he entered the US Presidential race.

The 45-year-old lawyer depicts himself as a fresh voice for voters tired of the divisive rhetoric and self-serving ambition of established politicians on each side of the Democrat-Republican divide. His campaign to become the first black President is inspired, he says, by his love of the country that allowed his father to triumph against astonishing odds.

Barack Obama Snr started life with the advantage of being able to read and write, but he also felt a profound sense of injustice. His father was a cook for British settlers in Kenya, who demeaningly called him their 'personal boy'.
Grandfather Obama sent his son to a missionary school but after completing his education, the youth could find little work except goatherding in his remote village of Nyangoma Kogela, in the roadless hills of Western Kenya.

At 18, he married a girl called Kezia. But Obama Snr was more interested in politics and economics than his family and his political leanings had been brought to the notice of leaders of the Kenyan Independence movement.

He was put forward for an American-sponsored scholarship in economics, with the idea being that he would eventually use his Western-honed skills in the new Kenya. At the age of 23 he headed for university in Hawaii, leaving behind the pregnant Kezia and their baby son. Relatives say he was already a slick womaniser and, once in Honolulu, he promptly persuaded a fellow student called Ann - a naive 18-year-old white girl - to marry him. Barack Jnr was born in August, 1961.

Two years later, Obama Snr was on the move again. He was accepted at Harvard, and left his little boy and wife behind when he moved to the exclusive east coast university. At the time, Ann explained to their son that his father had gone because his meagre stipend would not support the family if they lived together. But finance was the least of her worries.

Mr Obama Jnr claims that racism on both sides of the family destroyed the marriage between his mother and father. In his book, he says that Ann's mother, who went by the nickname Tut, did not want a black son-in-law, and Obama Snr's father 'didn't want the Obama blood sullied by a white woman'.

In fact Ann divorced her husband after she discovered his bigamous double life. She remarried and moved to Indonesia with young Barack and her new husband, an oil company manager. Obama Snr was forced to return to Kenya, where he fathered two more children by Kezia. He was eventually hired as a top civil servant in the fledgling government of Jomo Kenyatta - and married yet again.

Now prosperous with a flashy car and good salary, his third wife was an American-born teacher called Ruth, whom he had met at Harvard while still legally married to both Kezia and Ann, and who followed him to Africa.

A relative of Mr Obama says: "We told him[Barack] how his father would still go to Kezia and it was during these visits that she became pregnant with two more children. He also had two children with Ruth."

It is alleged that Ruth finally left him after he repeatedly flew into whisky-fuelled rages, beating her brutally. Friends say drinking blighted his life - he lost both his legs while driving under the influence and also lost his job.

However, this was no bar to his womanising: he sired a son, his eighth child, by yet another woman and continued to come home drunk. He was about to marry her when he finally died in yet another drunken crash when Obama was 21.

Mr Obama's 40-year-old cousin Said Hussein Obama told The Mail on Sunday: "Clearly, Barack has been very deeply affected by what he has learned about his father, who was my father's older brother. "You have to remember that his father was an African and in Africa, polygamy is part of life.

"We have assured Barack that his father was a loving person but at times it must be difficult for him to reconcile this with his father's drinking and simultaneous marriages." Said adds: "His father was a human being and as such you can't say that he was 100 per cent perfect.

"My cousin found it difficult when he came here to learn of his half-brothers and sisters born to four different mothers. "But just as Africans find the Western world strange so Americans coming here will find Africa strange."

Far from being an inspiration, the father whom Mr Obama was coming to know seemed like a total stranger. In his book, he attempts to put the best face on it. His father, he writes, lost his civil service job after campaigning against corrupt African politicians who had 'taken the place of the white colonials'.

One of Obama Snr's former drinking partners, Kenyan writer Philip Ochieng Ochieng says, however, that his friend's downfall was his weak character.
"Although charming, generous and extraordinarily clever, Obama Snr was also imperious, cruel and given to boasting about his brain and his wealth," he said.
 
"He was excessively fond of Scotch. He had fallen into the habit of going home drunk every night. His boasting proved his undoing and left him without a job, plunged him into prolonged poverty and dangerously wounded his ego."
Ochieng recalls how, after sitting up all night drinking Black Label whisky at Nairobi's famous Stanley Hotel, Obama Snr would fly into rages if Ruth asked where he had been.

Ochieng remonstrated with his friend, saying: "You bring a woman from far away and you reduce her to pulp. That is not our way."But it was to no avail. Ruth sued for divorce after her husband administered brutal beatings.

In fact he was a menace to life, said Ochieng. "He had many extremely serious accidents. Both his legs had to be amputated. They were replaced with crude false limbs made from iron.

"He was just like Mr Toad [from Wind In The Willows], very arrogant on the road, especially when he had whisky inside. I was not surprised when I learned how he died." Ruth refused to comment on the abuse charges when we tracked her down to the Kenyan school where she now works.

She said: "I was married to Barack's father for seven years so, yes, you could say Barack is my stepson. "Barack's father was a very difficult man. Although I was married to him the longest of any of his wives he wasn't an easy person to be around."

Mr Obama has acknowledged that his father grappled with a drinking problem. But with a gift for words that makes Mrs Clinton's utterances seem stiff and stale, he has turned it into another component of the myth.
Drink, he says, like drugs, are one of "the traps that seem laid in a black man's soul".

Mr Obama claims that he, too, has been racially abused, even during his campaign for the White House. His mother, Ann, decided that he should get an American education and sent him back from Indonesia to Hawaii, where he was admitted to a £7,000-a-year prep school, Punahau Academy, and lived with his maternal grandparents.

And while there, says Mr Obama, he was tortured by fellow pupils - who let out monkey hoots - and turned into a disenchanted teenage rebel, experimenting with cocaine and marijuana. Even his grandparents were troubled by dark skin, he says in his book, recalling how once his grandmother complained about being pestered by a beggar.

"You know why she's so scared?" he recalls his grandfather saying. "She told me the fella was black." Mr Obama says his soaring 'dream' of a better America grew out of his 'hurt and pain'. Friends, however, remember his time at school rather differently. He was a spoiled high-achiever, they recall, who seemed as fond of his grandparents as they were of him.

He affectionately signed a school photo of himself to them, using their pet names, Tut and Gramps. The caption says: "Thanks... for all the good times." He worked on the school's literary magazine and wore a white suit, of the style popular with New York writers at the time.

One of his former classmates, Alan Lum, said: "Hawaii is such a melting pot that it didn't occur to me when we were growing up that he might have problems about being one of the few African-Americans at the school. Us kids didn't see colour. He was easy-going and well-liked."

Lon Wysard, who also attended the academy, said the budding politician was in fact idolised for his keen sportsmanship. "He was the star basketball player and always had a ball in his hand wherever he was," Wysard recalled.

Mr Obama was later admitted to read politics and international relations at New York's prestigious Columbia University where, his book claims, "no matter how many times the administration tried to paint them over, the walls remained scratched with blunt correspondence (about) niggers." But one of his classmates, Joe Zwicker, 45, now a lawyer in Boston, said yesterday: "That surprises me. Columbia was a pretty tolerant place. There were African American students in my classes and I never saw any evidence of racism at all."

Family members and acquaintances believe that the real cloud over Mr Obama's life has been the discovery that his father was far from the romantic figure that his mother tried to portray. A family friend said: "He is haunted by his father's failures. He grew up thinking of his father as a brilliant intellectual and pioneer of African independence only to learn that in Western terms he was basically a drunken lecher."

This ugly truth, say friends, has made Mr Obama ruthlessly determined to use every weapon that he has to succeed, including the glossily edited version of his father's story.

"At the end of the day Barack wants the story to help his political cause, so perhaps he couldn't afford to be too honest," said Ochieng.

Significantly, it was only four years after his father's death that Mr Obama travelled to his father's ancestral Kenyan village. There he learned the full story of his father's life and met some of his relatives.

One of his half-sisters, Auma, is now a council worker in southern England, but some of his other relatives are still living in huts in the village, without plumbing or electricity, farming a few scrawny goats and chicken and growing fruit and maize.

They speak the tribal Luo language and depend on handouts from family members who have emigrated to the UK and the United States for their few luxuries, notably the transistor radios that they use to follow Mr Obama's rocketing political fortunes.

He has positioned himself as a devout Christian (having found God, he says, after years as an atheist) and in a new book The Audacity Of Hope, timed to coincide with his campaign, he concentrates on his manifesto for 'reclaiming the American dream'.

This tome contains one telling paragraph, in a section in which he fumbles to try to justify his abrupt leap into the national political arena: he is, he says, chronically 'restless'.

"Someone once said that every man is trying to either live up to his father's expectations or make up for his father's mistakes, and I suppose that may explain my particular malady."

Additional reporting: Rob Crilly in Nairobi and Gill Pringle in Honolulu.
 
Cal? said:
1. That is his name, is it not? If he's ashmaed of the Hussein part, he should have thought about getting rid of it.

2. So he's fired...

3. Again, why should she comply with Obama's requests? If he decides to campaign topless, should she do the same? :confused:

4. So she's fired... same scenario as 2.

It seems you're just anti-Hillary to an extent that you're willing to twist everything in Obama's favour. I just wish the people actually looks at their policy before deciding to vote...
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what a stupid argument........

the tax returns from 2000 onwards are crucial to reveal the source of the Clintons income....this is the US Presidential election....of course whoever wants the job must be vetted for integrity....

it may just as well she does not get the nomination....she wont get away with not revealing her tax returns when the Republicans get to their campaign...
 
WTF Is the "Key Commander-in-Chief Test" and Where Can I Take It?
- Eric Schmeltzer


Number one rule in politics and life -- when you're in a hole, quit digging.This weekend, on Meet the Press, Governor Ed Rendell, a Hillary supporter I twice worked for, got caught in a logical quandary. If Barack Obama is so inexperienced as to not even be qualified to be Commander-in-Chief, how can Hillary Clinton keep saying she'll consider him as a VP -- one heartbeat away from being Commander-in-Chief? Rendell, eventually, was forced to say that he thought Obama was qualified to be Commander-in-Chief, right now. But what about Clinton's campaign -- do they agree?

Credit to the mainstream media, for once, for following through on a pretty honest line of questioning. What IS the deal here? Is Obama qualified or not?

On a media conference call, Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson had a readied answer that, well, just opens up a slew of new questions. According to Talking Points Memo, Wolfson said Obama as VP is not something Clinton is, "prepared to rule out at this point... At the same time we continued to believe that Senator Obama has not passed the key commander-in-chief test at least at this point... Senator Clinton will not choose any candidate who has not at the time of choosing passed the national security threshold."

WTF is that? I mean, besides classic hedging when caught in an illogical argument?

There's a key test that's going to be administered between now and Denver in August that Obama has to pass? Where is that test, and where can I take it? Do I need a number two pencil for this test, or is it an essay exam? Maybe is it a virtual reality computer simulation? Maybe Obama will see a phone ringing at 3am, and if he can pick it up, he passed the test?

No, seriously, honest to God, what is going to happen in the next few months that will serve as a "key Commander-in-Chief test" -- for either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama? Is President Bush going to invite them into the situation room, and let them take it for a test spin? Is he going to transfer the next call from Medvedev to them, to see if they can handle it?

Wolfson is a smart dude and incredibly able, but this answer is trying to be too smart by half. Because, now the question isn't only why Hillary Clinton doesn't just "not rule out" Obama as VP, but actively promotes the idea. Now, they have to also answer what that "key commander-in-chief test" is, exactly, how Obama can take it, and at what point, specifically, did Hillary Clinton take it and pass it with flying colors?

:lol:
 
Red Dreams said:
what a stupid argument........

the tax returns from 2000 onwards are crucial to reveal the source of the Clintons income....this is the US Presidential election....of course whoever wants the job must be vetted for integrity....

it may just as well she does not get the nomination....she wont get away with not revealing her tax returns when the Republicans get to their campaign...
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Perhaps she will once the rules demand it. Funny you don't want to talk about Obama refusing to talk about his dodgy deals...
 
She is going to lose it for the Dems...more and more people are getting disgusted with her shameless personal attacks on Obama. Lack of leadership from the DNC to actually back Obama? She is not going to bridge the delegate gap whatever happens in PA. They are only allowing the situation the get worse by sitting on the fence.


Editor - I served in President Bill Clinton's administration from 1993-1995 as senior speechwriter for HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros. I am appalled by Sen. Hillary Clinton's repeated insinuations that presumptive GOP presidential nominee John McCain is better qualified to be commander in chief than Sen. Barack Obama.

I have never before heard a Democratic presidential candidate suggest that their Democratic rival was less qualified to serve as president than a prospective Republican opponent. Drawing sharp comparisons between herself and Sen. Obama is acceptable "hardball" politics. But by implying that Sen. Obama's credentials are inferior to Sen. McCain's, Sen. Clinton has crossed the line between acceptable and scurrilous behavior.

Her scorched-earth tactics are absolutely reprehensible. At best, she doesn't seem to care whether her attacks on Obama now are recycled by the GOP in the fall if Sen. Obama is the Democrats' nominee, and at worst, she seems to be signaling her supporters to vote for McCain if she isn't.

Sen. Clinton's tactics have pretty much convinced me - my previous service in her husband's administration notwithstanding - that I can never vote for her, come hell, high water or John McCain!

STEVE SHENDER

---------------------------------------------

Black radio talk shows are ablaze with callers saying they will stay home in November if Sen. Clinton wins the nomination. Warren Ballentine, a nationally syndicated show host, says he has been flooded with calls and emails from African-Americans saying they won't vote for Sen. Clinton.

"If she would have won a few months ago, people would have been cool with it," Mr. Ballentine says. "But because of everything that has happened, African-Americans are getting to the point now that there is no way on God's green earth we are going to vote for her."

While few believe Sen. McCain will win large numbers of African-American voters, a fall in turnout would hurt. "Black voters are very similar to evangelicals," says Keli Goff, a black political analyst. If there's not an acceptable candidate, "we're more likely to stay home."
 
Clinton campaign finance memeber: Obama is where he is because he is black

Clinton campaign finance committee member, former vice presidential candidate, and former Rep. Geraldine Ferraro, D-NY, told the Daily Breeze of Torrance, Ca., that, "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Of Clinton, Ferraro said that the press "has been uniquely hard on her. It's been a very sexist media. Some just don't like her. The others have gotten caught up in the Obama campaign."

"I was reading an article that said young Republicans are out there campaigning for Obama because they believe he's going to be able to put an end to partisanship. Dear God! Anyone that has worked in the Congress knows that for over 200 years this country has had partisanship - that's the way our country is."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/clinton-backer.html

Will Ferraro be asked to resign like Samantha Power?
 
Cal? said:
Perhaps she will once the rules demand it. Funny you don't want to talk about Obama refusing to talk about his dodgy deals...
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....go ahead...prove his dodgy deals...then prove the Clintons did not take blood money and kickbacks...which is what she is hiding in those tax returns....

btw...it is not about rules...it is about transparency...and honesty...two words the Clintons dont understand.....
 
Red Dreams said:
btw topper....Obama's father may have been a loser....that only makes what Obama has made of himself all the more incredible.....
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Hi RD


I really have no great interest in either of the Democrats - marginally for Clinton but less so than before and I believe that McCain will win whoever the Dems choose. What I found interesting in the above article was that a supposed straight shooter like Obama seems to have airbrushed his past a tad - Why???
 
topper said:
Hi RD


I really have no great interest in either of the Democrats - marginally for Clinton but less so than before and I believe that McCain will win whoever the Dems choose. What I found interesting in the above article was that a supposed straight shooter like Obama seems to have airbrushed his past a tad - Why???
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dont think he has airbrussed anything mate....none of us has a choice about who our parents are....we can either let our parents define us or we can define ourselves....
if I think about my own parents...guess i have been blessed...as much as I loved them...I could see faults...especially my dad...but you know what? you take the best and learn not to immitate the traits you dont like...

my estimation of the man only goes up with what he had to overcome....
this election btw is the Dems to lose...which they will if they overturn the elected delegates/votes....
in spite off all scenarios painted by the 'experts'...I dont think it will happen...because if we are objective both the Dem candidates are stronger than McCain....and they do have the economy to run on....so I dont see the Superdelgates overturning the voted delegate count...

Clinton ran the campaign very poorly...and it is too late in the game to change the results...I think....

voters get pissed off if they feel cheated....so although Clinton supporters wont like Obama winning...if he wins because if he has more pledged delegates...that would be more acceptable than if the 'backroom boys' decide the nomination...
 
Dont think the Dem ticket will be settled to the DNC in Denver this summer
 
Alex said:
Dont think the Dem ticket will be settled to the DNC in Denver this summer
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disagree...in the end the politicians will choose the nominee that will cause the least 'wave' among voters....the bitterness and anger increases when there is a belief that someone was cheated...and that can only happen if the pledged delegates are overturned....

they will try and clean all this up by June....otherwise the party will be commiting suicide....
 
Obama adviser calls for Ferraro's sacking

Former vice-presidential candidate and Hillary Clinton fundraiser Geraldine Ferraro sparked the latest storm in the Democratic presidential race today when she raised questions about Barack Obama's race, saying he has only been successful because he is a black man.

Obama's senior strategist David Axelrod called on the Clinton organisation to sack Ferraro from her position, saying Clinton should better "police the tone of this campaign".

"Leadership in campaigns comes from the very top," he said. "The signals that have been sent from the Clinton campaign have been really unfortunate."

Ferraro, who ran for vice-president on Walter Mondale's ill-fated 1984 ticket, told a California newspaper, "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position". She continued, "And if he was a woman ... he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept". Ferraro implied that a woman of any racial background would face similar problems as Clinton has.

The Obama camp immediately jumped on the comments, demanding the Clinton campaign repudiate the remarks. According to CNN Obama's foreign policy adviser, Susan Rice, said: "I think if Senator Clinton is serious about putting an end to statements that have racial implications … then she ought to repudiate this comment."

The furore erupted as voters in Mississippi lined up at the polls to cast primary votes Tuesday. Mississippi, which will award 33 delegates based on Tuesday's vote, is predicted to go Obama's way. The Illinois senator has won a number of southern states, notably excepting Clinton's former home, Arkansas, where her husband Bill was governor.

The latest row in the increasingly heated and contest comes after Obama's foreign policy adviser, Samantha Power, was forced to resign after calling Clinton a "monster" in an interview with The Scotsman.

Obama's race has crept into the national dialogue despite the Illinois senator's efforts to portray himself as post-racial. As the two camps battled earlier this year, former president Bill Clinton compared Obama to Jesse Jackson, a Chicago minister, civil rights leader and former presidential candidate. The move was deemed an effort to belittle Obama as a "black" candidate who wouldn't appeal to white voters.

More recently, Pennsylvania governor Ed Rendell, an outspoken Clinton
backer, said conservative in his state, who go to the polls April 22,
weren't ready to elect a black candidate.

Joseph DiSarro, a political scientist at Washington & Jefferson College in Washington, Pennsylvania, predicted Rendell's comments would backfire by angering white voters who are not prejudiced.

"That's going to cost Hillary votes," DiSarro said. "There are going to be a lot of white voters who will be offended by that."

Obama's ethnic background - his father was Kenyan, and his middle name is Hussein - has become fodder for his opponents, mostly on the right. Initially, slurs accusing Obama of being a secret Muslim or a Manchurian candidate of sorts were found largely to the Internet.

But this week Iowa congressman Steve King, a Republican, said if Obama wins the White House, "the radical Islamists, the al-Qaida and the radical Islamist and their supporters will be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on September 11th, because they will declare victory in this war on terror".

Although black voters have turned out en masse to vote for Obama and played a large roll in his southern victories, Obama's skin colour has not hindered him in mostly white states. On Saturday, for instance, he won Wyoming, which is 95% white, by 23 points.

Meanwhile, House speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, dismissed the notion of a joint Clinton-Obama ticket as "impossible" – no matter who ends up winning the nomination.

In what appears to be a barb aimed at the Clinton camp, Pelosi, who has not publicly endorsed either candidate, told CNN: "I think that the Clinton administration has fairly ruled that out by proclaiming that Senator McCain would be a better commander-in-chief than Obama."

She explained her blunt assessment that a joint ticket would be impossible, by saying: "I wanted to be sure I didn't leave any ambiguity."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/11/hillaryclinton.barackobama

This is getting very dirty now...
 
For fecks sake, why do they have to even mention the ethnicity or gender of candidates? Of what relevance is it to anyone with half a brain?
 
Red Dreams said:
disagree...in the end the politicians will choose the nominee that will cause the least 'wave' among voters....the bitterness and anger increases when there is a belief that someone was cheated...and that can only happen if the pledged delegates are overturned....

they will try and clean all this up by June....otherwise the party will be commiting suicide....
Click to expand...

Don't know about that one, I think it's generally accepted that Hillary will do everything she can to derail Obama's campaign if she doesn't get the nomination - so she gets another chance 4 years later.
 
Red Dreams said:
disagree...in the end the politicians will choose the nominee that will cause the least 'wave' among voters....the bitterness and anger increases when there is a belief that someone was cheated...and that can only happen if the pledged delegates are overturned....

they will try and clean all this up by June....otherwise the party will be commiting suicide....
Click to expand...

If it comes down to superdelegates which it may well, it wont be over to the DNC, especially if they revote in Florida and Michigan(which they obviously will do, or they will lose votes in the big election, both those states favor Hilary and will even up the votes and give her more superdelegates. I for one hope it is settled in at the DNC so I can rent my loft out for a shitload that week
 
Obama projected to win Mississippi

Barack Obama headed towards a solid victory over Hillary Clinton in the Mississippi primary tonight, re-asserting his status as the frontrunner in the final stretch of the campaign for the Democratic nomination.

Television exit polls and early returns projected Obama would easily win Mississippi, expanding his lead in delegates over Clinton and making it increasingly difficult for her to catch up with only 10 primary contests still ahead.

With 15% of the precincts counted, Obama was leading Clinton by 52% to 46%, according to CNN. However, the vote in Mississippi once again drew attention to the deepening racial polarisation within the Democratic party - only hours after a row over controversial comments about Obama's race from Geraldine Ferraro, a Clinton supporter.

Obama had widely been expected to win Mississippi, thanks to strong support from African-American voters who make up about 35% of the electorate - a larger share than in any other state.

Although Obama played down the significance of winning Mississippi, he acknowledged the victory would take him closer to racking up the figure of 2,025 delegates needed to secure the Democratic nomination.

"It's just another win in our column," he told CNN. "What we have tried to do is steadily make sure that in each state we are making the case for change in our country and obviously in the state of Mississippi people responded."

As in other southern states, blacks in Mississippi voted for Obama in overwhelming numbers. Exit polls suggest Obama won 91% of the African American vote.

Nearly 20% of whites said race was important to their votes and nearly all voted for Clinton, according to the exit polls. Among African-Americans, about 40% gave race as a factor in their votes.

Obama won less than a third of the white vote, a weaker performance than Obama had delivered in predominantly white states such as Wisconsin.

With Mississippi's demographics in mind, Clinton had downplayed expectations in the state, and moved on to campaign in Pennsylvania early in the day.

"Some people have said, 'Well Mississippi is very much a state that will most likely be in favor of Senator Obama.' I said 'Well, that's fine'," she said in Hattiesburg, Misssissippi, before flying north.

Last night's contest was almost overshadowed by the growing row over comments from Ferraro, who in 1984 was the first woman ever to run on a national ticket as vice-president.

In an interview with a California newspaper, Ferraro had suggested Obama was only ahead in the race because he was African-American.

The row forced Clinton to distance herself from the remarks. But last night Ferraro went even further than her original comments telling the same newspaper, the Daily Breeze, that the furore suggested she - not Obama - was a victim of racism.

"Any time anybody does anything that in any way pulls this campaign down and says let's address reality and the problems we're facing in this world, you're accused of being racist, so you have to shut up,'' Ferraro was quoted as saying. ''Racism works in two different directions. I really think they're attacking me because I'm white. How's that?''

Ferraro had also argued that the campaign had shown sexism to be more pernicious than racism. "It's OK to be sexist in some people's minds. It's not OK to be racist."

Tonight's results bring a relatively long hiatus for the Democratic nomination, with six weeks to go before Pennsylvania holds its primary on April 22.

There were only 33 delegates at stake in Mississippi. But in this closely fought delegate race tonight's win - on top of Saturday's victory in the Wyoming caucus - bring Obama closer to the magic number of 2,025.

This week's wins in Wyoming and Mississippi also helps undermine Clinton's claims after winning the big states of Texas and Ohio last week that the race has turned into a virtual tie.

That could help Obama attract additional support from the super delegates who will be crucial in deciding the contest. Both Obama and Clinton are unlikely to win enough pledged delegates to secure the nomination.

Obama began the night with 1,579 delegates, according to the Associated Press. Clinton had 1,473.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/12/uselections2008.usa
 
Alex said:
If it comes down to superdelegates which it may well, it wont be over to the DNC, especially if they revote in Florida and Michigan(which they obviously will do, or they will lose votes in the big election, both those states favor Hilary and will even up the votes and give her more superdelegates. I for one hope it is settled in at the DNC so I can rent my loft out for a shitload that week
Click to expand...

sticking my neck out here....there wont be a revote for MI and FL....not that it would make a huge difference in terms of pledged delegates...Clinton wants the supers connected to Flordia...now they cant vote...the DNC will seat the delegates After the nomination has been ironed out. Remember the DNC made the rule...they cant go back and break it...just cause Clinton is trailing...
and they wont lose the votes.....there was no hue and cry when they moved the dates and the voters in Fl which everyone is talking about voted mainly on property taxes. Voters will vote in the General election on issues...

Also the main thing to look out for is what key leaders in the Democratic party are saying...Richardson and Pelosi and it said even Gore are leaning Obama...these people wont allow a bloodbath at the convention...which would just give the election away...

what will happen is they will allow the primaries to finish and quickly pull the delegates together to force the 'loser' to accept the verdict.

these superdelegates are politicians who would want a candidate that will help Them...Clinton will solidify the Republicans....why do you think every Republican pundit and politician is sideing with Clinton...the FL governor being among them....they know Clinton would be a Dream candidate for the GOP to run against.
 
Frosty said:
Clinton campaign finance committee member, former vice presidential candidate, and former Rep. Geraldine Ferraro, D-NY, told the Daily Breeze of Torrance, Ca., that, "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Of Clinton, Ferraro said that the press "has been uniquely hard on her. It's been a very sexist media. Some just don't like her. The others have gotten caught up in the Obama campaign."

"I was reading an article that said young Republicans are out there campaigning for Obama because they believe he's going to be able to put an end to partisanship. Dear God! Anyone that has worked in the Congress knows that for over 200 years this country has had partisanship - that's the way our country is."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/clinton-backer.html

Will Ferraro be asked to resign like Samantha Power?
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For Ferrarro to do this is much worse than Power's action.

Firstly, Power was an unpaid advisor. Ferrarro is a major wheel in Clinton's campaign. She is also an old-school Democratic power broker who has a huge public profile, perhaps mostly as the VP candidate on the ticket that suffered the worst defeat in US presidential election history.

Instead of apologising when the media quoted her, she immediately jumped out and threatened the Obama campaign that they had better stop these baseless attacks on her because she was a big time fundraiser. Where these baseless attacks from Obama were coming from, I'm not sure (Obama refused to comment on it initially). Even the media hadn't even ramped it up yet as the night-time pundit shows and the morning editorials hadn't gotten a hold of it and it was still a pure 'news' story.

It is like she made the comment and then followed a set script to make herself the victim of her own attack. That's a classic Clinton tactic, she just did it about 24-48 hours too early. She's now claiming she's only being picked on because she's a woman.

Of course there isn't a racist bone in Geraldine Ferrarro's body.

A Ferraro flashback


"If Jesse Jackson were not black, he wouldn't be in the race," she said.

Really. The cite is an April 15, 1988 Washington Post story (byline: Howard Kurtz), available only on Nexis.

Here's the full context:

Placid of demeanor but pointed in his rhetoric, Jackson struck out repeatedly today against those who suggest his race has been an asset in the campaign. President Reagan suggested Tuesday that people don't ask Jackson tough questions because of his race. And former representative Geraldine A. Ferraro (D-N.Y.) said Wednesday that because of his "radical" views, "if Jesse Jackson were not black, he wouldn't be in the race."

Asked about this at a campaign stop in Buffalo, Jackson at first seemed ready to pounce fiercely on his critics. But then he stopped, took a breath, and said quietly, "Millions of Americans have a point of view different from" Ferraro's.

Discussing the same point in Washington, Jackson said, "We campaigned across the South . . . without a single catcall or boo. It was not until we got North to New York that we began to hear this from Koch, President Reagan and then Mrs. Ferraro . . . . Some people are making hysteria while I'm making history."
Click to expand...

Once again, not a single racist bone in her body.

These people need out of politics now before they get the chance to destroy yet another decade with hate and power-hungry Nixonian madness.
 
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