I don't think a cultural reset at a club this size, with a wage bill this high, is possible. It will be down to a new manager working tactical magic to get us winning again.
The much (internally) lauded "cultural reset"
- Thread starter Bastian
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What did it consist of?
Well, there was fight and spirit for two years, which for some reason has changed dramatically this season.
Getting rid of bad eggs. Getting better attitudes in. Which we did for a while and then stopped.
Problem here is lots mistaking poor quality for a lack of effort.
There was no problem with the attitude tonight, they were all trying. We just couldn't stick 5 decent passes together.
The team had a knack (during the lockdown) to fight back in matches, after starting poorly. A good trait to compensate for a bad trait. But we were still outfought and likely outrun in most matches against smaller sides.
Yeah, that partly explains it. Getting rid of mercenaries and bringing in players who actually want to play and fight for the club. Yet, many kept playing who did not really show that spirit. And they were always defended by the manager.
Yeah I think that's what me a few others mean by we started the process well. First year or two. Bombing out Fellaini, Lukaku, Sanchez and a few others. It did feel like a reset and we were seeing some results on pitch.
Then Ole lost his way somewhere, didn't see the job through and actually started to recreate some of the problems he'd solved.
He reset the reset.
Well, we got rid of some deadwood, plus a few lads that many felt weren't at the club for the right reasons.
Then we bought in four young, hungry players with something to prove in James, Maguire, AWB and Fernandes on reasonable wages. You can debate the quality of these players but for me, they are the right "profile" of signing.
We also moved to distance ourselves quickly from the usual circus of agents using us to get improved deals for their clients. No Kroos, Bale, Ronaldo, Ramos rumours etc...plus we stopped pursuing Dybala when it became clear he wanted a ludicrous salary.
So I think there was a definite shift in focus, certainly when it came to recruitment. Trouble is, before long we are back chasing "names" and paying massive salaries to 21yo kids.
We are fundamentally a counter attacking team. Our best play came tonight counter attacking. When Villa had ten men behind the ball and we were attacking them we couldnt open them up with one twos. Whereas when they were attacking us and we had ten men behind the ball they could open us up at will.
For me this is because our previous two managers were counter attacking, Mourinho and Ole.
We are really in trouble. How many of the starting 11 tonight would guardiola pick to start for city? Probably only Greenwood and Varane.
The amount of times various of our players couldnt even control the ball. Then if we did control it we couldnt execute the right pass.
The club is rotten. It took Klopp two years to get Liverpool playing the way they play now. Its the same with us.
For me this is because our previous two managers were counter attacking, Mourinho and Ole.
We are really in trouble. How many of the starting 11 tonight would guardiola pick to start for city? Probably only Greenwood and Varane.
The amount of times various of our players couldnt even control the ball. Then if we did control it we couldnt execute the right pass.
The club is rotten. It took Klopp two years to get Liverpool playing the way they play now. Its the same with us.
It was all a bunch of nonsense to mask just how low our standards had/have fallen.
Yeah, I agree with that take. Like he wanted us to be the fittest team in the league and press teams into submission. And then we didn't. Also, I think Fellaini didn't really rock the boat and was very professional. I doubt he was a trouble maker at all. Just not good enough (like 10-15 others).
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Dalot was a young hungry player too, though he didn't fit the level required (at least not back then). Jose wanted to sign Maguire (not that I'm defending Jose, nor do I think Maguire was worth pursuing for the money paid). Fred who is probably one of our most honest players was also bought during Jose's reign, and he also cost silly money like AWB and Maguire. Taking a chance on James was sensible given the recommendations and he was absolutely committed, his attitude was never in question. And of course we lucked out with Bruno. I thought though that the cultural reset was about more than just signing those profiles of players on a lower wage than what had gone on before. I mean, contracts were extended for bit-part players on unmerited wages in the cultural reset era. And prima donna behaviour was indulged too. Lazy performances were also tolerated.
I guess it was a promising idea for a brief moment that petered out soon enough, though it kept being talked about in branding the managerial reign and the club's shiny new direction.
It was one of the buzzwords used to lower standards. 3 years and we ended up back at square one with a toxic dressing room.
I think there are two key points, which explain why we never saw the idea through.
1) Ole lost his bottle. He found it easy to be ruthless with players he had no connection with but as soon as they were "his" players, he found it really tough to make the big calls.
2) The team behind the scenes hadn't changed. We keep making the same mistake at United and the fans are as guilty as anybody. We have now gone through 5 senior managers and 100+ players, with mixed results. Yet the one constant has been Ed Woodward and his incompetent, inadequate team. It's all well and good a manager talking about a "cultural reset" but if the blokes who identify signings, negotiate contracts and generally set the direction at the club aren't onboard and/or can't execute, then it's doomed to fail.
Look at the way both teams walked out. Villa looked puffed up and ours looked crestfallen and not interested. The Jones jump against Wolves highlight this. Since Ole said trophies are for egos we lost it. One thing a manager needs to be is to be honest and truthful.
This. He should be sacked when he said that. Next what, winning is for ego too ? That's the point of winning right ? Cause winning makes you happy and feel proud so its for ego too I guess. Spoken like the biggest loser in the world. Anyhow this drummed up cultural reboot is just a reason to keep underperforming managers and players in the club.
I don't get this. What exactly is a, "United" player? Our ex players where fortunate enough to play under the greatest manager of all time who repeatedly put together winning squads. There's no trick to it. A player isn't born with United DNA. Either they're good enough or they're not. Does players like Rodri, Dias, TAA, Robertson, De Bruyne, Mane or Salah have what it takes to be a United player because that's exactly what we need.
We need to get away from this United DNA crap because it's one of the biggest reasons the last 3 years have been trophyless, especially when it's done in half measures. Where was the entertaining football? Blooding in youth? There are managers out there that can and will eventually fill these criterias but I'm pretty certain that it won't be with an ex player or with anyone supposedly with United DNA running through their veins.
I'm sure Ole meant well but any philosophy that includes signing Dan James probably isn't one to get on board with
Do you?
Well I'd say him being a genius motivator, man manager and delegator, signing good players and being brave in his approach were probably pretty good reasons. Unfortunately Oles none of those things.
Turns out the dressing room was only in peace because they had a manager that smiles at them everyday and tell them they're worth more than what they are. Once they have an actual boss, they want him out. Men are only truly loyal to strong leaders. They are only loyal to weak leaders so they can get much more by putting less effort.
Well I'd say having played and worked under him for the best part of 15 years Solskjaer probably does have a clue why Fergie was so successful. But you are almost certainly right in that Solskjaer just wasn't as good at any of the things he tried to replicate that made SAF the best.
The 'cultural reset' will have be done when United start winning trophies again, on a regular basis.
Everything else is just PR... incidentally never heard so many players 'talk a good game' as some of our present lot can.
Everything else is just PR... incidentally never heard so many players 'talk a good game' as some of our present lot can.
I would have had Dan James now rather than Rashford. Our squad got blasted with players we could never play and never sold them and RR has said the squad is too big.
Solskjaers two big failures in my opinion are he went too soft on the players to the point he was probably seen as a pushover and don’t really respect him as a manager because it’s happy smiley Ole who won’t get mad and just tell you to enjoy football (and if you were one of his favourites like Bruno, you were fecking invincible).
And secondly he in my opinion vastly underestimated the need for coaching in this modern era and thought ‘if Sir Alex can do it, I can’t go too far wrong’ and hence why Sir Alex regime faces are in his staff like Phelan, Hartis, Dempsey etc. He also stuck with recently retired Carrick and highly rated youth coach McKenna when he had ample time to assess them and wonder whether he could get better options in.
In conclusion, what we’re seeing now is what happens when a progressive football manager like Ralf comes in and tries to get this team into a side we should be aspiring to be. Ralf will demand that you work hard, he is not a Utd alumni and he has enlisted coaches who share his progressive methods… so our players are being dragged kicking and screaming into going above and beyond for the first in 3 years for a lot of them and hence why there is no new manager bounce on this occasion.
And secondly he in my opinion vastly underestimated the need for coaching in this modern era and thought ‘if Sir Alex can do it, I can’t go too far wrong’ and hence why Sir Alex regime faces are in his staff like Phelan, Hartis, Dempsey etc. He also stuck with recently retired Carrick and highly rated youth coach McKenna when he had ample time to assess them and wonder whether he could get better options in.
In conclusion, what we’re seeing now is what happens when a progressive football manager like Ralf comes in and tries to get this team into a side we should be aspiring to be. Ralf will demand that you work hard, he is not a Utd alumni and he has enlisted coaches who share his progressive methods… so our players are being dragged kicking and screaming into going above and beyond for the first in 3 years for a lot of them and hence why there is no new manager bounce on this occasion.
Nope, they're not and I didn't suggest they were. Evra being a good example of this.
When a player comes to this club there are certain expectations beyond those at other clubs. You have the basics, work hard, nurture your talent, thank the supporters, etc but as United fans we maintain additional expectations about players who join us and that is that they develop a connection to or understanding of our history and use that to form part of their motivation and identity. Generally, we aren't a fanbase that wants to see mercenaries whose only motivation is money and maybe trophies. Sure there are some fans like that but they are probably better off supporting a club like Real Madrid so as to avoid periods of disappointment like the one we're in the midst of now.
Evra, again, and Vidic are counter examples to this. I'm sure a number of us would've sacked them off after their debuts.
I don't know. They're good players but why didn't we sign them first (TAA excepted)? Is your suggestion that our scouts have a United DNA criteria?
Setting standards and making sure everyone knew every moment who was in charge.
The "cultural reset" was just like the famous "philosophy" LVG used to talk about in press conferences.
Both managers had a plan, it just ultimately didn't work out.
Both managers had a plan, it just ultimately didn't work out.
Let's be honest, we deluded ourselves about the 'cultural reset' because we wanted to believe it was true. We wanted to believe we were headed in the right direction, things were getting better and we were getting closer to being champions again.
The truth is we need an entirely new rebuild because the culture at United is rotten. The players run the club not the coach. They decide if they can be bothered or not. They decide what they like and don't. For all the positivity around Ole, just like the coaches before him, he got briefed against. That's continued under Rangnick.
We need to clear out the dressing room and start over with young, hungry players who have something to prove. Not a bunch of entitled 'stars' who think winning a Europa League five years ago thinks they've made it.
So much delusion around our club about our level. But I guess if you're paid like a Champions League winner, despite failing to qualify for the Champions League consistently, you might think you're better than you are. Especially if the club keeps sacking managers to suit you, despite you doing sweet F.A. to warrant that level of mollycoddling.
The truth is we need an entirely new rebuild because the culture at United is rotten. The players run the club not the coach. They decide if they can be bothered or not. They decide what they like and don't. For all the positivity around Ole, just like the coaches before him, he got briefed against. That's continued under Rangnick.
We need to clear out the dressing room and start over with young, hungry players who have something to prove. Not a bunch of entitled 'stars' who think winning a Europa League five years ago thinks they've made it.
So much delusion around our club about our level. But I guess if you're paid like a Champions League winner, despite failing to qualify for the Champions League consistently, you might think you're better than you are. Especially if the club keeps sacking managers to suit you, despite you doing sweet F.A. to warrant that level of mollycoddling.
This sounds very plausible. I recall reading about Woodward making an impromptu visit to Solskjaer's office and apparently being really impressed with Solskjaer's future planning. It seems to me the club were totally sold on his vision and turned a blind eye to the problems we had on the pitch for too long
The story goes he knew Ole was the right man because he walked in on him planning his team years ahead. Ole could have been playing Football manager on PC for all we know and the clueless dimwit thought it was more relevant than what was on the pitch. Maybe at his old job they used monopoly to decide who would make a great investment banker.
Agree with everything you said. I will add though in Ole’s defence that I don’t think he ever imagined being made permanent manager. In that respect, I can understand why he didn’t want to ruffle feathers as his remit at first was literally just to ‘put smiles on faces’ and bring back the players confidence until the summer when a proper permanent manager could be brought in.
Obviously the rest is history. As you say, his fatal error which caught up with him this season was letting standards slip in terms of having too many staff not good enough (both players and coaches).
I slightly have a different opinion than you as to what is happening right now though. I feel a-lot of our best players simply don’t want to be part of another rebuild (Ronaldo, Pogba, possibly Fernandes and Greenwood etc). While many of the others simply aren’t good enough and are surplus to requirements (as you say RR is not there to be their friend). That’s probably different than what they were told by Ole/the board when signing new contracts which has resulted in bitter and unsettled players.
The “cultural reset” ended the day Ole went. He was the main driver of it and will have been the most effective person to control and implement it, once he’s gone the whole thing goes and once carrick and McKenna went that even further destroys it. Only the manager on the football side of things and coaches day to day can drive such a culture. Murtough etc won’t have a clue as their sat in their offices not day to day with the players. Ole did a good job on the culture, morale and attitude side of things in my view and I think all other managers are showing it’s easier said than done and have failed as a result. I’m sure Ralf is trying to implement his own version of cultural reset but so far there’s little to no sign of it.
The turmoil that started when he was around and eventually got him sacked? Come on, man. This doesn't even line up. Players were in the press saying things about his management and barebones training and tactics. The toxic internal situation started well before he left.
Agree with what you say about Ole and Ralf. However, I can’t excuse Murtough and the senior management of blame. How can the managers implement a cultural reset if players pay is completely disproportionate?
This is obviously guess work from my end b it I think it’s quite safe to assume that the players are unsettled and bitter due to the pay differences. I know people will say they are all millionaires what does it matter. However, it’s human nature and there’s no way that our best players like Bruno/Greenwood are not raging that Martial/Pogba are on 250k and Jesse Lingard is on 100k a week despite offering very little.
A wage hierarchy based on performances and fairness is definitely part of a culture too, it can’t just be driven by the football management.
The cultural reset was just a buzzword meant to buy Ole some time when he had a difficult start to the 2019/20 season. Remember Ole had sold Lukaku and not replaced him and we were struggling for creativity and goals in the first half of the season after blowing the whole budget on "great characters and top human beings".
Bruno came in, was sensational for 18 months which masked the fundamental flaw in Ole's grand design - he had staked his and the club's future on players that were way short of the minimum requirements of a top competitive team. You look at various aspects like technique, grit, stamina, power and flair all our supposed core players have an element missing bar Bruno and maybe Rashford at a stretch.
It was going to be excused the moment we flirted with challenging at the top especially after his peers figured that if you stop the counter United don't have an alternate tactic.
That only started in sept/October this year when results took a spectacular nose dive. Up until then he ran a pretty good ship in my view on the non playing side of things
but that defeats the purpose of a culture. It's not good culture if things turn toxic after a poor run. Culture is supposed to survive that. Even Jose maintained his dressing room when things were peachy. Our cultural reset only reset us back to the same kind of toxic dressing room we started out with.
During the last days of Mourinho's rule the board was literally being shat on. Most of our signings were tripe (with Sanchez being the icing on the cake) and everything around the club from Woodward to the negotiating team were being hammered. At that point the pressure grew so much that the board had to act which is exactly what they did.
Some of us wanted United to go for experts. I remember mentioning Marotta as CEO with the likes of Paratici or Campos as DOF. United went for the Pound shop option instead. In typical United fashion we promoted from within. Ole was made manager, Murtough and Fletcher were given top jobs etc. No one gave a feck that Ole had no experience in managing a top club like United, that Murtough was part of the problem rather then the solution having been here since Moyes times or that giving Fletcher 2 promotions in few months was silly. All we cared about was Vibes FC.
The new administration proved to be very cautious, probably because they needed some solid wins. We spent silly money on proven EPL players (Maguire and AWB) and we added James on Giggs recommendation. This new system seemed doomed during Ole's first year as permanent manager but we then brought Bruno in who carried the team till the end of the season. It was evident that we couldn't spend another 180m again so United went on cheaper options such as VDB, Telles, Diallo and Cavani. No one gave a feck about the defensive midfield side of things as Ole and co believed that McT was the next big thing, that Fred was decent and that there was still juice left in Matic. It was during the second season when the idea of defending in numbers and relying heavily on individuals upfront to bail us out truly consolidated itself. All we had to do was to make sure that we had top quality talent upfront, something Ole hoarded by signing Sancho and Ronaldo + keeping Mata, Jesse, VDB on top of the likes of Rashford, Greenwood and Pogba. Those who sounded the alarm (Jesse, VDB and co) were told to trust in the process as there will enough games for everyone. Which is kind of strange considered that Ole would rather run players to the ground (Rashy and Maguire) then give some game time to players outside his favourite bunch.
Turned out that what Ole achieved was creating the perfect storm. Most players had caught the manager and therefore the club in a lie which means that they want out. Meanwhile years of vibes FC made the team complacent which means that the moment someone came out and asked for outrageous stuff like running more and doing training in the afternoon was set to cause an outrage among a team who got used of going on following the manager on holiday when shit hits fan. It didn't help the fact that we signed Rangnick, a man whose football is polar opposite to Ole's defend in numbers and pray someone put a ball in the net tactic.
What United need is to decide a philosophy and stick to it. If we're going for gegenpressing then fine but we need to stick to it. Managers might be sacked but the manager we hire next must have a style which is very similar to what we've got. Its ridiculous to ask a 37 year old Ronaldo or football cavemen like Maguire or AWB to play this style of football when they simply lack the brains, the skill and (in case of Maguire) the pace to do so. Which is why Carrick with his 30 minutes experience of management had produced better results then the guy who inspired Tuchel and Klopp. That's not all. That philosophy must be understood and accepted across the board. United need a sporting director, a DOF and a technical director who know what they are doing and aren't given the job simply because they are already here or because of what they did as players. That's the cultural reset United need.
Some of us wanted United to go for experts. I remember mentioning Marotta as CEO with the likes of Paratici or Campos as DOF. United went for the Pound shop option instead. In typical United fashion we promoted from within. Ole was made manager, Murtough and Fletcher were given top jobs etc. No one gave a feck that Ole had no experience in managing a top club like United, that Murtough was part of the problem rather then the solution having been here since Moyes times or that giving Fletcher 2 promotions in few months was silly. All we cared about was Vibes FC.
The new administration proved to be very cautious, probably because they needed some solid wins. We spent silly money on proven EPL players (Maguire and AWB) and we added James on Giggs recommendation. This new system seemed doomed during Ole's first year as permanent manager but we then brought Bruno in who carried the team till the end of the season. It was evident that we couldn't spend another 180m again so United went on cheaper options such as VDB, Telles, Diallo and Cavani. No one gave a feck about the defensive midfield side of things as Ole and co believed that McT was the next big thing, that Fred was decent and that there was still juice left in Matic. It was during the second season when the idea of defending in numbers and relying heavily on individuals upfront to bail us out truly consolidated itself. All we had to do was to make sure that we had top quality talent upfront, something Ole hoarded by signing Sancho and Ronaldo + keeping Mata, Jesse, VDB on top of the likes of Rashford, Greenwood and Pogba. Those who sounded the alarm (Jesse, VDB and co) were told to trust in the process as there will enough games for everyone. Which is kind of strange considered that Ole would rather run players to the ground (Rashy and Maguire) then give some game time to players outside his favourite bunch.
Turned out that what Ole achieved was creating the perfect storm. Most players had caught the manager and therefore the club in a lie which means that they want out. Meanwhile years of vibes FC made the team complacent which means that the moment someone came out and asked for outrageous stuff like running more and doing training in the afternoon was set to cause an outrage among a team who got used of going on following the manager on holiday when shit hits fan. It didn't help the fact that we signed Rangnick, a man whose football is polar opposite to Ole's defend in numbers and pray someone put a ball in the net tactic.
What United need is to decide a philosophy and stick to it. If we're going for gegenpressing then fine but we need to stick to it. Managers might be sacked but the manager we hire next must have a style which is very similar to what we've got. Its ridiculous to ask a 37 year old Ronaldo or football cavemen like Maguire or AWB to play this style of football when they simply lack the brains, the skill and (in case of Maguire) the pace to do so. Which is why Carrick with his 30 minutes experience of management had produced better results then the guy who inspired Tuchel and Klopp. That's not all. That philosophy must be understood and accepted across the board. United need a sporting director, a DOF and a technical director who know what they are doing and aren't given the job simply because they are already here or because of what they did as players. That's the cultural reset United need.
Your missing my point- the culture will reset with every change of manager. Hence why every manager change sets us back another two years. I don’t ever recall a peachy time under Jose either to be fair but that’s another matter!
No, I got what you said. I replied it with my first statement, the culture got him sacked. The attitude, morale everything didn't count for much when the going got tough. There was never a distinct culture or it would have survived what happened. Things went bad and the players were giving press leaks about his managerial deficiencies. What kind of culture is that? There was no real reset, just business as usual, some good, some bad, nothing great in player attitudes or outlook. Only difference is this lot are somewhat more likable so they are viewed more positively.
What you're describing is what every single club in world football want in their signings. Our history isn't going to give any player an extra percentage advantsge in the way they play. That's just pure romanticism. The type of player we want will give their all no matter the club they play for.
You used Evra as an example. I'll counter with Rodri. They both had shakey starts. Eva went on to become WC not because of our history but for the type of player he was. The same as Rodri who after his shakey start is now probably the best DM in the world. If there were such a thing does that mean he has inbuilt City DNA?
The concept of football really is quite simple. Get the best group of players available. Add in the best managerial team/background staff and get it all to gel. The last 3 years has just been one big PR exercise from the club to cover their inadequacies from top to bottom and many people bought into their idea. Just because we've been lucky enough to have had 2 of the best managers of all time who instilled the idea of DNA doesn't make it a blueprint for the future because that is a sure recipe for disaster. Just ask Ole.