I wonder why Pep and Klopp don’t have this kind of rivalry. It seems both are big personalities.
The Feud - Ferguson vs Wenger
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I think you make a lot of good points, the stadium move, talent drain and then the emergence of Chelsea (already a good side but now with financial backing) and later City made things tough for them. For a while one of City’s tactic to climb up the league was just to convince Arsenal players to make the move, Clichy, Sagna, Toure, Nasri, Adebayor all moved from red to blue while the clubs were still rivals. Which as well as weakening Arsenal probably hastened the departures of a few other players.
It’s almost impossible to do what Ferguson did and keep a team at the top and competitive in a constantly evolving landscape.
But we were the ones dominating the league and therefore preventing them from winning it whilst they had their best squad.
Your right that the oil clubs contributed eventually of course but when they were at their best there was only us stopping them from winning the league. If they had been winning leagues those players would have likely stayed. SAF played the biggest part in their downfall imo.
Yes that game was the best ive witnessed. It was like a work of art
I always wonder why Wenger purposely changed the make-up of his team from a team full of huge characters, massive physical brutes into a team of lightweight characterless weeds.
Quickly transformed them from a real threat to everyone to also rans.
Quickly transformed them from a real threat to everyone to also rans.
Their head to head record is interesting.
49 Games
Sir Alex - 23 wins
Arsene - 16 wins
Ten draws
49 Games
Sir Alex - 23 wins
Arsene - 16 wins
Ten draws
Liveprool might be United's biggest rival, but there was no rivalry in the PL as intense as that of Arsenal-United. It carried the same amount of intensity the peak of El Classico Jose Mourinho vs Pep did. Players went out there to 'kill' each other. I kinda miss those days of football. The product is so sanitized and boring now
I would have thought it was better than that , from a United perspective .
It was a great watch and it was a great rivalry. Probably we wont see anything similar ever. That was Premier league at its peak. As it was said here Fergie prevented them winning all cause they had really a good team in Wenger peak years. In his first full season Wenger won the double and then we went with 3 in a row plus one in 2003. In the end Fergie definitely had the better of Wenger, especially since we stayed in the battle with first Chelsea and then City while Arsenal just fell of.
And it is really interesting how Arsenal went from a team full of big, strong characters to a team which we were beating all around the pitch as well as the other teams. Not to mention their high defeats which mounted and mounted until it became a normal thing.
Loved the part about Wenger not wanting to even mention Fergie's name for a time.
Also Keown saying his antics against Ruud being probably childish but not being sorry for doing it after all this time.. Wanker.
And it is really interesting how Arsenal went from a team full of big, strong characters to a team which we were beating all around the pitch as well as the other teams. Not to mention their high defeats which mounted and mounted until it became a normal thing.
Loved the part about Wenger not wanting to even mention Fergie's name for a time.
Also Keown saying his antics against Ruud being probably childish but not being sorry for doing it after all this time.. Wanker.
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Absolutely
They like to go on about that Rooney dive while conveniently forgetting to mention that they wouldn't have gotten to 49 without that ludicrous Robert Pires dived against Portsmouth (or was it Birmingham, I forgot.)
Neither of them have that antagonist side of them. They are both big personalities, but their personalities seem somewhat...self contained? Jose sparked up the rivalry between him and Pep when he was in Spain for example, because he was an antagonist.
I've just watched this. I can feel the hatred for Arsenal coming back. feck those guys.
‘Peak’ Premier League was also my first thought when I opened this thread. I don’t think the Premier League has ever been as much of a spectacle since.
It got me thinking: is this just nostalgia because I was a teenager, United were actually good, and football was the most important thing in the world, or was it really the best time to follow English football?
I have a theory that the 2003 FA cup 4th round defeat to Arsenal was the one which forced SAF to adopt a more cautious approach against Wenger and generally flood the midfield against them (often to great effect). If you look at Wenger's record against Fergie after that match and particularly around the Invincibles era, it's generally not great except for the 06/07 seasons where they beat us twice. Their record before that game is pretty good (doubles against us in 98 and 2002).
I agree with this to an extent, but not completely. Not finding an adequate replacement for Gilberto Silva played a role, and he certainly moved away from physicality in favour of technique in midfield and (to a lesser extent) up front, but I'm not sure that was the main issue. For me, Arsenal's regression stemmed from Wenger's inability to build a solid defence.
Coming in to the club, he inherited a phenomenal keeper and back four. He did build very well when Arsenal transitioned from Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Bould, Keown, Winterburn, to Lehmann, Lauren, Campbell, Toure and Cole, but rebuilding the defence for a second time was beyond him.
Failing to build a third defence was his undoing at Arsenal, not the transition to technical, passing football. Build a back four from any of the players in his first 2 defences and I think the later Wenger teams still compete for titles.
THAT was the real Premier League. Too many softies these days.
Because it's city. Liverpool have heritage, like united and arsenal. City do not.
Tbh docs like this always do us a disservice. Especially when great teams are discussed. Arsenals 3 titles were highlighted and glorified, while ours were simply brushed off as general expectation.
It's a common theme and something that leads to people not truly appreciating how many different great teams we had. Dominance should mean something
It's a common theme and something that leads to people not truly appreciating how many different great teams we had. Dominance should mean something
And besties.
Players nowadays are more concern about saying hello and having hugs with their mates, even our very own players.
Back then we got keane, stam, gary neville, beckham, butt, scholes, rvn etc who were set out to win football games rather than making friends.
You could sense the hatred between the managers - effecting the players, the staff, the two clubs and all the fans.
I’ve always looked at Arsenal as the club I despise the most. I don’t like seeing Liverpool having the success they’re currently having, but I respect it. City just got money and are buying their success with unlimited foundations - so they’re just “Meh. Whatever. Who even cares about them?”
When it comes to Arsenal, and especially during the Arsene period, I just can’t stand them. Arsene’s way of being a sore looser was transferred to all of his players. No class at all. Their way of celebrating after the final whistle in the RvN-missed-penalty match was a pinpoint on what kind of club they were. Then we have the pizza-gate.
Remember comparing Ferguson’s and Arsene’s post match interviews and never understood how people could support a club managed by Wenger. Sure, he made them play great football, but whenever you heard Sir Alex talk - you’d listen. He was such a great leader and a role model.
I’ve always looked at Arsenal as the club I despise the most. I don’t like seeing Liverpool having the success they’re currently having, but I respect it. City just got money and are buying their success with unlimited foundations - so they’re just “Meh. Whatever. Who even cares about them?”
When it comes to Arsenal, and especially during the Arsene period, I just can’t stand them. Arsene’s way of being a sore looser was transferred to all of his players. No class at all. Their way of celebrating after the final whistle in the RvN-missed-penalty match was a pinpoint on what kind of club they were. Then we have the pizza-gate.
Remember comparing Ferguson’s and Arsene’s post match interviews and never understood how people could support a club managed by Wenger. Sure, he made them play great football, but whenever you heard Sir Alex talk - you’d listen. He was such a great leader and a role model.
players from rival clubs are all pally with one another.
Removes any edge we used to see twenty years ago. Boring.
Removes any edge we used to see twenty years ago. Boring.
To be fair when you rewind a few years forward, suddenly the world is getting dominated by technical midgets with quite a few Arsenal players making a cameo (Henry, Fabregas... better not to mention Song). His vision for the future was certainly spot on, but he had failed to properly execute it — and that approach was always all or nothing. He got nothing.
Unbelievable. Literally went through every emotion in that match.
Because although Klopp is often described and perceived s a ''mad man'' he is not that confrontational at all and because Guardiola already had one big feud with another manager in his career and he had enough..
There are 27 human emotions, I just checked.
The only one I reckon you didn't feel was "boredom"! Also maybe not "calm".
The 27 emotions: admiration, adoration, aesthetic appreciation, amusement, anger, anxiety, awe, awkwardness, boredom, calmness, confusion, craving, disgust, empathic pain, entrancement, excitement, fear, horror, interest, joy, nostalgia, relief, romance, sadness, satisfaction, sexual desire, surprise.
"Japaaan"
this was the start...
this was the start...
I would have added sexual desire… but seeing the way Giggs bent over half the Arsenal team
The media are desperate to have another managerial feud of this magnitude. The only thing that comes close to it is Jose and Wenger going at it, but Arsenal and Chelsea players were all too fecking chummy with eachother to give it that edge, unlike Arsenal and Utd players.
I don’t think Wenger purposely changed the make up of his team.
His football philosophy was always the same, the problem was getting big physical players to the play that way became harder to find.
How tall was that Invincibles XI? They all seemed tall to me except for Ljungberg. Henry, Toure, Vieira, Pires, Bergkamp, Campbell etc.
Yes, United run out of steam in 1998 and Fergie learnt. The 99 semi-final replay was so engrossing, in fact the first game too and the league encounter a few months before. There was none of this hype, or in fact it was worth it, you watched two good teams go at it.
It makes me laugh when the media go on about how Pep has brought innovative football to England, especially if you remember watching Wenger's early teams.
I think 2 things were the downfall of Arsenal. Chelsea coming on the scene and the new ground. Chelsea sent spending on players to a new level and then the ground sucked more money out of the club. This meant Arsenal had to buy players of a lesser quality than they had been. To go from invincibles to never winning the title again is one hell of a drop off
Nice little Docu and I really miss those times when we were actually competitive in such rivalries and not just a sparing partner.
The new stadium and being happy to settle for 4th every season changed their mentality.
They turned into a fancy football side with no backbone.
You bet.We scored early , which was brilliant , we were dominating them, creating chances , looking like scoring again, brilliant.
They get a spawny equalizer , shite, our captain gets sent off late on, worse shite, then they get a last minute penalty , despair!
Schmeichel saves, elation.The tension of extra time , wondering if our 10 men could get us to penalties.
Then we get a worldie from Giggs to win it! Footballing bliss!
That last minute, the penalty and the despairs of thinking we out to exhilarating of the Schmeichel saving it, celebrated that save more than any goal.
I think that’s why that buzz is remembered more than even the last minutes Nou Camp goals. Because we went from utter low to utter high in such a short time frame literally seconds so mentally it was such a rollercoaster
And then they became good friends.
The two were closely linked together unfortunately. Chelsea coming in ruined the fun of this rivalry.