Rio Ferdinand says Manchester United must write off the next two years in their latest rebuild. But is he being too optimistic?

The thing is we've committed to playing high press football. The reason we did that was because without it we will soon stop making top four, and we will be regularly humiliated by teams that do. That's what did for Ole.

Now this takes time. A short time if like Chelsea you were halfway there. But a very long time if like us you were playing another style or no style at all. It's much more of a start from scratch project and goes right the way through the club. It may not happen at all, such is the Glazer infestation of commercialism. Two years is a best case scenario.
 
Unless United's next manager is 'Merlin the Magician', then Rio is being unduly optimistic; 3 years minimum, probably 5. too much needs changing in the club as well as the team.
If we consider there was no proper succession planning, the club and not just the team has been sliding away (ever since SAF) left into a transient and increasingly unstable state... maybe, just maybe, Ralf and who he can bring in, maybe able to steady the ship!
 
The obvious flaw of the argument is that it pleads the case of our rebuild and our improvement existing within a vacuum. People immediately say, "Ah, two years and we'll be challengers? I'll take that".

Assuming:

1. Our rebuilding is meticulous and pulled off with the optimal degree of success, which cannot be presumed.
2. That any of our current superiors don't improve themselves and thus remain at their present standard, and worse, lengthen the gap.
3. That any of our current equals don't rebuild and improve better than we ourselves will in the next two years.

You simply cannot write off anything on the off-chance that your rebuild will be staggering. Every season should be a title challenge, in terms of mentality. The moment you defer ambition to variables that might not happen, is foolish.
 
Banat said:
I disagree, as we can se with Ralf.
Progress is obvious, we play much better and organized football with each game, we finally have some identity on the pitch, and you still have a good chunk of our fan base being overly negative and calling RR a fraud after only three months.
Whoever we appoint next, he will need to deliver results instantly, else he will be under a huge pressure mid-season.
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Not trying to take the piss but what’s our identity with Ralf? We’ve had some relatively easy games but I’m not seeing any distinct style.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
The obvious flaw of the argument is that it pleads the case of our rebuild and our improvement existing within a vacuum. People immediately say, "Ah, two years and we'll be challengers? I'll take that".

Assuming:

1. Our rebuilding is meticulous and pulled off with the optimal degree of success, which cannot be presumed.
2. That any of our current superiors don't improve themselves and thus remain at their present standard, and worse, lengthen the gap.
3. That any of our current equals don't rebuild and improve better than we ourselves will in the next two years.

You simply cannot write off anything on the off-chance that your rebuild will be staggering. Every season should be a title challenge, in terms of mentality. The moment you defer ambition to variables that might not happen, is foolish.
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I agree with this. Showing patience is one thing, giving a carte blanche to someone for two years and turn a blind eye to the realities right in front of you simply because you can't operate outside the notion that the manager should be some kind of pater familias is another.

And presenting Liverpool's success as an example is wrong. The truth of the matter is that they struck gold with Klopp. Even their Moneyball approach to signings is something that Klopp brought with him to Merseyside. The equivalent to us following their modus operandi is to hope that we'll one day snatch the next SAF when he rises up.

And ambition is something that comes from the top. Say what you will about City's owners, their mission statement was that they want to make City the best club in the world. Sadly, at United, all ambition died when the great man stepped down.
 
There's no indication that this next rebuild will be any more successful than the last 9 years of rebuilds.

Newcastle are almost as many players away as us from a title challenging side but they'll outspend us over the next few years so are probably more likely to get there.
 
Hammondo said:
Our players are just not good enough.
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I agree that some aren’t and need replacing but put Ronaldo in a city team and he gets you 25+ goals a season. Could say the same about halve the team… if they played for city/Liverpool they’d turn into world class players. The set up at united is failing the players.
 
The right manager and the right signings and we'll be contenders in 23/24.
The idea that it takes a lifetime to build a team is false, plus we already have many talents here.
 
You don't write off anything. You just focus on a vision and do everything possible fulfill it. The rest is just noise.
 
fastwalker said:
Worryingly in his article Rio suggests that the new manager will need a minimum of two years (without offering an upper limit). In the article Rio: "urges his old club to 'humble themselves' and take a leaf out of Liverpool's book when they appoint a successor to Ralf Rangnick." However, if I am not mistaken Klopp's rebuild from appointment to first major trophy took four and a half years? Not only that but Liverpool's transformation under Klopp, is not just about Klopp. It is also about having owners who invest transfer money wisely, having an outstanding recruitment operation, using data analytics intelligently, keeping players wages competitive (but not exorbitant) and building a strong team ethic where players are hungry for success.

Whilst I hate to sound pessimistic, is Rio being too optimistic at the lower end of his expectations?
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Gosh he must have insider information that they’re giving it to Gary or Phil Neville.
 
Until we get 2 top strikers in of a decent age, a CM as well were a long way off. The Greenwood situation has set us back years as well in finding a striker, if he does not come back. I'm ,looking at 3 windows summer ones or more, in-between I'd be happy in progress and a cup win. City are streets ahead of the rest, even the dippers in terms of a Squad. Long road and the right manager to come in.
 
Hughie77 said:
Until we get 2 top strikers in of a decent age, a CM as well were a long way off. The Greenwood situation has set us back years as well in finding a striker, if he does not come back. I'm ,looking at 3 windows summer ones or more, in-between I'd be happy in progress and a cup win. City are streets ahead of the rest, even the dippers in terms of a Squad. Long road and the right manager to come in.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. The absence of Greenwood has really damaged us, short term and long term. Yes, I agree that in the modern day we as a club had to act in a immediate short term. But I cannot believe that behind the scenes, there have not been conversations along the lines of "what the hell are we going to do, about replacing him, what are we going to do if a he is charged/convicted or b)vice versa. He is an £120 million player that has been at the club since the age of 6.

This is when we needed Cavani to step up; he is injured. Rashford to find form and consistency, he hasn't. This is why my blame towards Ronaldo is limited because there has been no support to rotate him.

More specifically, in relation to Ferdinand's comments, he has previous in terms of making emotional reactions (PSG victory, "give the man a contract). I think he talks tripe and I would not listen too much to what he says. United are more than capable of making strides within a short period of time, but they need the right channelling.

Hopefully, with Rangnick as consultant and other shifts in personnel there be be more of direction upstairs. The management is obviously very crucial.

What we do with Greenwood, I have no idea. This is unprecedented for our club?
 
AneRu said:
Liverpool brought in Mane and Salah for a combined fee of under £70m, until we are able to pull off deals like that and lose our obsession with fading stars who gave their best years elsewhere we can forget about being competitive. We are like Microsoft trying to take on Apple with their pitiful Windows Phone.

Like Neville said a few years back, we needed to bring in the best in class DOF to direct our then rebuild. What did Woodward do, he hid behind a club legend and £400m later we are still talking of the same shite - lazy, overpaid and overrated players. Imagine where we would be if a top DOF like Campo or Rangnick had overseen the last four or five windows?

The sad thing is that the Glazers are so scared of taking financial hits that they would protect underperformers. Instead of backing a much needed clear out that sends a message to the dressing room we will go for a diplomat that won't confront the deep-seated rot in the dressing and start off by pandering to the same snakes sinking us.
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Yes but the point you are makign is about the quality of players bought in, not the number of players bought in that I alluded to. We should eb able to do both with some of the young talent around at the moment...of coruse we have pretty much doen neither for the vast majority of windows over the last decade, a double edged sword of partly where we are we we are
 
Hughie77 said:
Until we get 2 top strikers in of a decent age, a CM as well were a long way off. The Greenwood situation has set us back years as well in finding a striker, if he does not come back. I'm ,looking at 3 windows summer ones or more, in-between I'd be happy in progress and a cup win. City are streets ahead of the rest, even the dippers in terms of a Squad. Long road and the right manager to come in.
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Yes the Greenwood situation was a huge loss and we never even really saw him up front where I feel he would have flourished in time. But he isnt the only super talented yougn player in Europe just as there are many great young midfielders beyong Rice and Bellingham.

Its all about recruitment in and out, as even with Greenwood, surrounded by some of our signings over the last few years, still not going to challenge. I think a manager or DOF with balls is needed as there IS a big clear out and there are several positions need filling in the first eleven even. Being ruthless with that over a coupel of windows is what we shoudl be doing rather than 2/3years like now....we will never progress using a "process" as Ole put it himself unless every signing is perfect and they never will be
 
DJ_21 said:
I agree that some aren’t and need replacing but put Ronaldo in a city team and he gets you 25+ goals a season. Could say the same about halve the team… if they played for city/Liverpool they’d turn into world class players. The set up at united is failing the players.
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Dude the reason hes not scoring is him, not United, hes been given goals on a plate and hes missed over and over.
 
jesperjaap said:
Yes but the point you are makign is about the quality of players bought in, not the number of players bought in that I alluded to. We should eb able to do both with some of the young talent around at the moment...of coruse we have pretty much doen neither for the vast majority of windows over the last decade, a double edged sword of partly where we are we we are
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But can't you see the correlation? If you can buy two top attackers for £70m then you have the skill to identify a good LB in a relegation side and turn him into one of the best in the world. It's signings like Robertson, Mane and Salah that left them with the budgetary space to afford transformative players like VVD. United wouldn't be able to do the same when they spend an average of £50m on a player.
 
What is Rio talking about? This team is brimming with EPL proven/British players with the right United DNA who knows exactly what Manchester United is all about. That's a team Ole, Fletcher, Phelan, Carricky and co had spent a looping 415m upon. Don't tell me that all of that was a disaster and that Ole's tenure with United was an utter mess
 
devilish said:
What is Rio talking about? This team is brimming with EPL proven/British players with the right United DNA who knows exactly what Manchester United is all about. That's a team Ole, Fletcher, Phelan, Carricky and co had spent a looping 415m upon. Don't tell me that all of that was a disaster and that Ole's tenure with United was an utter mess
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Outside of Maguire and Shaw, Ole signings were neither British and for the most part, not PL proven. Cavani, Bruno, VDB, Amad, Pellistri, take your pick.
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VP89 said:
Outside of Maguire and Shaw, Ole signings were neither British and for the most part, not PL proven. Cavani, Bruno, VDB, Amad, Pellistri, take your pick.
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Ole didn't sign Shaw. He signed Maguire, AWB, James, Heaton, Sancho and Ronaldo, all EPL proven or English while he also signed Bruno, Cavani, VDB and Varane who were considered safe signings.
 
VP89 said:
Outside of Maguire and Shaw, Ole signings were neither British and for the most part, not PL proven. Cavani, Bruno, VDB, Amad, Pellistri, take your pick.
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1. Shaw was from LVG's era.
2. I am pretty sure Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Jadon Sancho are British.

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devilish said:
Ole didn't sign Shaw. He signed Maguire, AWB, James, Heaton, Sancho and Ronaldo, all EPL proven or English while he also signed Bruno, Cavani, VDB and Varane who were considered safe signings.
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Sancho was seen as an obvious and superb signing from most neutrals, slapping him as a mindless British transfer is as daft as it gets. He was a safe signing and showing some good individual performances despite a dysfunctional set up. Bit odd to bucket him in the window Pep spunks 100m on Jack Grealish.

Heaton was always our player, not sure what madness you're on about.

VDB, Cavani, Pellistri, Amad, Bruno are all examples that contribute to negating your false narrative.
 
VP89 said:
Sancho was seen as an obvious and superb signing from most neutrals, slapping him as a mindless British transfer is as daft as it gets. He was a safe signing and showing some good individual performances despite a dysfunctional set up. Bit odd to bucket him in the window Pep spunks 100m on Jack Grealish.

Heaton was always our player, not sure what madness you're on about.

VDB, Cavani, Pellistri, Amad, Bruno are all examples that contribute to negating your false narrative.
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Do you even follow Manchester United? First you said that Shaw was Ole's signing when he was signed by LVG (the guy preceding Mourinho who preceded Ole) then you said that Heaton was always our player despite leaving United 12 years ago and had since played with 4 other clubs (Cardiff, Bristol, Burnley and Aston Villa)

Out of the list you mentioned only Bruno was a first teamer. Cavani was a quick fix upfront while VDB, Amad and Pellistri had barely ever played. Its evident that the latter two were signed as youths. God only knows why we've signed VDB for.
 
devilish said:
Do you even follow Manchester United? First you said that Shaw was Ole's signing when he was signed by LVG (the guy preceding Mourinho who preceded Ole) then you said that Heaton was always our player despite leaving United 12 years ago and had since played with 4 other clubs (Cardiff, Bristol, Burnley and Aston Villa)
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Apologies a mixture of mixed up names. I mean outside of WBA ** and Maguire. And I mistook Heaton for Henderson.

Heaton was a free transfer on a nothing deal outside of squad depth. Youre really REALLY clutching at straws if you think hes an example citing transfer policy.
devilish said:
Out of the list you mentioned only Bruno was a first teamer. Cavani was a quick fix upfront while VDB, Amad and Pellistri had barely ever played. Its evident that the latter two were signed as youths. God only knows why we've signed VDB for.
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Yes he was a first teamer (bruno). Not PL proven or British though. The point I am making is there wasnt some British or PL proven drive only, so quit trying to claim there was one.
 
DaveinToronto said:
1. Shaw was from LVG's era.
2. I am pretty sure Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Jadon Sancho are British.

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I corrected apologies. A rushed post after some herbal tea in Thailand. In an unrelated note cannabis is legal here :lol:
 
VP89 said:
Apologies a mixture of mixed up names. I mean outside of WBA ** and Maguire. And I mistook Heaton for Henderson.

Heaton was a free transfer on a nothing deal outside of squad depth. Youre really REALLY clutching at straws if you think hes an example citing transfer policy.

Yes he was a first teamer (bruno). Not PL proven or British though. The point I am making is there wasnt some British or PL proven drive only, so quit trying to claim there was one.
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Wow, you mixed 2 names....ok

Heaton was an A class feck up. We already had issues with having 3 EPL level GKs in Romero, DDG and Henderson so what does Ole do? He let a disgruntled Romero leave on a free and then he signs Heaton to replace him. WTF is that? To note that this was one example of a series of similar mistakes. When Ole left we had 4 experienced goalkeepers (DDG, Hendo, Heaton and Grant), four strikers in a formation with 1 striker (Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial and Greenwood), five no 10s (Bruno, VDB, Jesse, Mata and Periera with Pogba also able to play there), 6 experienced CBs (Maguire, Varane, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and McShane), the latter god knows why we've signed him because he wasn't even United level in his prime let alone now. That's not all, this summer biggest signing (Sancho) and last summer biggest signing (VDB) were barely getting games all while the DM role was literally rotting. Finally he decides to play with a high line with possibly the slowest CB in United's recent history (30 years?) and a fullback that can't attack both of whom he signed for fecking 130m. That's crazy.

Regarding transfers Ole made the following signings

Heaton, AWB, Maguire, James, McShane, Bruno, Ighalo, VDB, Diallo, Pellistri, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo, Cavani. The blue ones are EPL proven or British while the red ones were kids for the academy having started just 3 games between them. Which leaves us with 4 CL and WC winner Varane, 6 La Ligue winner Cavani, Bruno whose stats at Lisbon were young Scholes level and VDB. As you can see there's plenty of blue there.

Regarding Graelish I wouldn't really use it a stick to beat Pep with since Ole wanted him as well. He also wanted Longstaff.
 
Well, that's what we're basically doing right now with Rangnick and his appointed manager in the future, right?
 
Depends entirely on our acquisitions and new manager in the summer. Ten Hag and tchoumeni would be huge as they’re the best managerial and cm prospects in world football.

The problem is that pool and city are so good so we won’t be catching them whilst pep/Koop remain. I think either has as good a chance ever as winning a treble/quadruple this season and that hurts to say.
 
devilish said:
Wow, you mixed 2 names....ok

Heaton was an A class feck up. We already had issues with having 3 EPL level GKs in Romero, DDG and Henderson so what does Ole do? He let a disgruntled Romero leave on a free and then he signs Heaton to replace him. WTF is that? To note that this was one example of a series of similar mistakes. When Ole left we had 4 experienced goalkeepers (DDG, Hendo, Heaton and Grant), four strikers in a formation with 1 striker (Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial and Greenwood), five no 10s (Bruno, VDB, Jesse, Mata and Periera with Pogba also able to play there), 6 experienced CBs (Maguire, Varane, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and McShane), the latter god knows why we've signed him because he wasn't even United level in his prime let alone now. That's not all, this summer biggest signing (Sancho) and last summer biggest signing (VDB) were barely getting games all while the DM role was literally rotting. Finally he decides to play with a high line with possibly the slowest CB in United's recent history (30 years?) and a fullback that can't attack both of whom he signed for fecking 130m. That's crazy.

Regarding transfers Ole made the following signings

Heaton, AWB, Maguire, James, McShane, Bruno, Ighalo, VDB, Diallo, Pellistri, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo, Cavani. The blue ones are EPL proven or British while the red ones were kids for the academy having started just 3 games between them. Which leaves us with 4 CL and WC winner Varane, 6 La Ligue winner Cavani, Bruno whose stats at Lisbon were young Scholes level and VDB. As you can see there's plenty of blue there.

Regarding Graelish I wouldn't really use it a stick to beat Pep with since Ole wanted him as well. He also wanted Longstaff.
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You're changing the narrative.

If you're debating Oles signings and transfer planning then I agree it was slapdash and nonsense, like his coaching.

If youre debating he had a strong drive toward British and PL proven talent then I would argue he wasnt - VDB, Diallo, Bruno, Cavani and Pellistri are testiment to that.
 
VP89 said:
You're changing the narrative.

If you're debating Oles signings and transfer planning then I agree it was slapdash and nonsense, like his coaching.

If youre debating he had a strong drive toward British and PL proven talent then I would argue he wasnt - VDB, Diallo, Bruno, Cavani and Pellistri are testiment to that.
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He wasn’t even the one identifying the targets though - vbd he clearly did not like. Apparently he had a veto over each signing but he was hardly building a team, it was a terrible approach.
 
VP89 said:
You're changing the narrative.

If you're debating Oles signings and transfer planning then I agree it was slapdash and nonsense, like his coaching.

If youre debating he had a strong drive toward British and PL proven talent then I would argue he wasnt - VDB, Diallo, Bruno, Cavani and Pellistri are testiment to that.
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8 out of 14 players were EPL proven or British. Out of the remaining 6 players 2 of them were kids. How would you describe that?
 
bucky said:
Tuchel has shown that this whole notion is utter nonsense. You don't need to have individually great players in every position to win trophies. Ole was in first more than a year ago, reached the EL final and came second, despite the fact that he wasn't cut out for the job and our squad not exactly being without issues.
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I see what you’re saying to a degree, but I think Tuchel’s successes just show more of Chelsea’s MO. They take a year or two of wilderness for instant success, then continue that cycle. We (the club) want that ‘long term stability’ so we opt out of signing volatile managers like Conte, whereas if Chelsea were in our position they’d have got him in and given him what he wants. End up with some silverware and then for it to explode in a year or two.

Whether ‘long term stability’ is 1. A real thing outside of the genuinely elite managers, and 2. Is the right thing for us to be doing is another sotry
 
MUFC OK said:
He wasn’t even the one identifying the targets though - vbd he clearly did not like. Apparently he had a veto over each signing but he was hardly building a team, it was a terrible approach.
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Not true. There were articles and his own quotes to show he followed him and was keen on the signing.

devilish said:
8 out of 14 players were EPL proven or British. Out of the remaining 6 players 2 of them were kids. How would you describe that?
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Id describe it as a pile of wank. Klopp bought Lovren (?), Jota, Mane, VVD, Salah, Shakiri, Oxlade Chamberlain etc.

No one in their right minds would point to that and say he is driven by a strategy of Premier League proven players.

Pep brought in Walker, Stones, Sterling, Mahrez, Ake, Grealish, etc. Does his first team + subs have a huge PL proven focus?

Quit making things up. 7 players who are both non British and non PL proven out of 18 is substantial enough to negate your point.
 
Why are we always writing off years, instead of progressing.
 
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