Rebuild job needed…again

markhughes said:
That is 13 players who are just not good enough or who will be gone in the next couple of years. Obviously we are not going to get rid of all of them and so we are stuck with our investments for a number of years.

That is a bigger job than most people realise I think, our first 11 seemed decent this year on paper but the midfield and defence need rebuilding and some of the big names will be gone within a couple of years.
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No it's not, you've gone hysterical and listed a ton of squad players who barely feature. To say we need a rebuild because of Jones, Bailly, Martial, Lingard and Telles would be like saying City need one because of Ake, Zinchenko and I don't even know because even City don't have a 3rd/4th/5th choice Number 10/CF/CB

As for Cavani and Ronaldo yes both are short term but in Cavani's case that was clearly done with an eye on Haaland, who knows if Ronaldo has changed plans there but essentially you can replace both with a Haaland

Fred/McTominay are fine as squad players

As is always the case people just want to sell everyone forgetting you need a squad
 
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Trainwreck of a thread. Most players (bar McFred) are good enough with proper instructions and management.
 
Coops73 said:
I think match going fans need to be vociferous in their anger, look what happened after the Liverpool game but it needs to be constant and loud, feck! let’s get more games stopped, it makes very negative headlines for the glazers, look at the reaction of the spurs fans and then what happened to their manager.

Ultimately it’s the Glazers that need to be gone and we need the protests to be loud, prolonged and headline grabbing.

I didn’t see the end of the game yesterday so I’d be intrigued to hear from someone what the fans reaction was like.

It feels a bit rich coming from someone like me who rarely gets to old Trafford these days but I really think it’s those match going fans that can make a difference in getting a change from the management and coaching team (which I don’t feel overly comfortable saying)to the Glazers themselves.

Then and only then can there be a proper rebuild but I’m just not sure there’s the stomach for it though because it will take a lot of effort, time and people’s sanity because these cnuts that run our club are not going to leave easily.
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Honestly this gets annoying to read after a while. Are there bonus top Red points handed out for posting this stuff?

The Glazers are the owners. The same people who have the club in a constant funk (and who are constantly not blamed for the club's performance) are the same people who couldn't figure out how to buy the club in 2005. The Glazer's could and did. Encourage them (the Glazers) to run the whole hierarchy of the club out the door, and then go get some competent people in, 'cause right now there don't seem to be any. (Has anyone lost their job for allowing a concussed Shaw to go back on the field? Is there any accountability for anyone for anything?)
 
We don't need a rebuild, squad is good enough to do much better than we are.
 
Tyrion said:
Actual pressing? Some sort of defensive plan beyond 8 behind the ball + Cavani, Bruno and Ronaldo?
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Coaching a high press takes time, the right players and the right manager. That's the problem.

Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell said:
Sancho and DvB could slot straight into a team playing high press. Not sure about any other players tbh - pretty clear that if Ole goes it means the start of another 3-5 year project that includes significant squad change, can't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
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And yet they do constantly. Like children asking for sweets.

Ironically as long as fans believe a manager change is all that's required, that's all they will get. And we will be having the same conversation in 2024. And the top reds won't remember having it in 2021. Or 2017. etc
 
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We need to stop wanting to chuck players out after a few bad games. The confidence of the team is at rock bottom and that is on the useless coaching. These players should be given a chance under a competent coaching setup.
 
Well, on the bright side the incoming manager wouldn't have to dismantle a system that we don't have in the first place!
 
Not sure I agree we need to rebuild, rebalance definitely and what we most need is a coach who can actually improve players and train players to function as a unit especially in attacking play.

but we have a lot of talent in the squad, a lot players who are coming to the end of been classed as young players and havnt really improved as they should of and at the point of we’re there chances of people leading players at a top club is fading away.
We don’t appoint a good coach in the next season who will develop the players we have into a team then we will have a tear down and rebuild job.
 
Until this squad actually challenges for a title I remain unconvinced it's not just one that looks good on paper. I think it's really worrying we have a squad that seems to perform better in empty stadiums than full ones, their bottle remains a question mark to me.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Did Chelsea need a rebuild when Tuchel came in?

What we need is a better coach, when better coaching happens the mistakes we see now will stop akin to how Tuchel resolved all the issues that were there under Lampard without the need for a rebuild
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Agreed.
 
glazed said:
Coaching a high press takes time, the right players and the right manager. That's the problem.
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I think Conte, Tuchel or Poch would/could be able to do it. Apart from Ronaldo and Pogba, I dont buy that our players would be that bad at it. It looks like that now because they don't have a coach who knows how to do it.
 
Ixion said:
The squad is not balanced at all. A new manager would 100% need to make signings and replace the players on the verge of leaving.
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Can't tell if this is a troll or a post completely lacking any sense.

At the moment this is probably the best squad we've had in the past 7/8 year. It's a matter of coaching and management.
 
Tyrion said:
I think Conte, Tuchel or Poch would/could be able to do it. Apart from Ronaldo and Pogba, I dont buy that our players would be that bad at it. It looks like that now because they don't have a coach who knows how to do it.
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It would take time though. And Conte isn't a high press coach so forget about him anyway.

You can add DdG to the list. He doesn't leave his line or have the ball skills. So that's a lot of salary on the bench already even if you are right about the others (which I doubt, sorry).

Pavl3n said:
Can't tell if this is a troll or a post completely lacking any sense.

At the moment this is probably the best squad we've had in the past 7/8 year. It's a matter of coaching and management.
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The other alternative is that you are wrong, and the magic pressing fairy isn't just going to arrive from Amsterdam or Germany and make us amazing with a wave of his wand?
 
Pavl3n said:
Can't tell if this is a troll or a post completely lacking any sense.

At the moment this is probably the best squad we've had in the past 7/8 year. It's a matter of coaching and management.
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We completely lacking in DM and we're overloaded with attackers. Cavani, Lingard, Pogba, VDB, Henderson, Mata, Martial will all leave at a minimum so those bodies will need to be replaced in the squad. A new manager will have to buy plenty come next season.
 
glazed said:
It would take time though. And Conte isn't a high press coach so forget about him anyway.

You can add DdG to the list. He doesn't leave his line or have the ball skills. So that's a lot of salary on the bench already even if you are right about the others (which I doubt, sorry).



The other alternative is that you are wrong, and the magic pressing fairy isn't just going to arrive from Amsterdam or Germany and make us amazing with a wave of his wand?
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Ok so he is not an Ederson but overall hasn't DDGs distribution this season been quite an improvement over years gone by?
 
Gavinb33 said:
Did Chelsea need a rebuild when Tuchel came in?
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Isn't the whole point that Lampard tried to do High Press. He just wasn't very good at organising the fine detail of it. But all the ground work was there for Tuchel and that's the only reason he made such fast progress. Unlike us who are just a hot mess (sometimes not even that hot).

Chelsea's pressing under Frank Lampard
 
This current squad absolutely doesn't need a rebuild. What it needs is for a numbers of players to be moved on, which has blocked the pathway for some very talented young players we have at the club. And then to add a few players to the first 11 via the transfer market. But for that you need a very good head coach, rather than the one one we have now, who promised high tempo fast transition, high line football 'like Jurgen' but ended up setting up in a low, mid block after attempting and subsequently failing at creating conditions for the team to stay compact in a high defensive line.

We absolutely have the personnel to apply high pressure, but what we don't have, is a head coach, who knows how to create a compact defensive block high up the pitch. When I have time, I'll give my thoughts on how I believe ten Hag could potentially set us up in a high compact defensive block in the relevant thread.
 
steffyr2 said:
Honestly this gets annoying to read after a while. Are there bonus top Red points handed out for posting this stuff?

The Glazers are the owners. The same people who have the club in a constant funk (and who are constantly not blamed for the club's performance) are the same people who couldn't figure out how to buy the club in 2005. The Glazer's could and did. Encourage them (the Glazers) to run the whole hierarchy of the club out the door, and then go get some competent people in, 'cause right now there don't seem to be any. (Has anyone lost their job for allowing a concussed Shaw to go back on the field? Is there any accountability for anyone for anything?)
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I literally have no fecking idea what you’re getting at here. You seem too be agreeing but cnuting me off in the same post.

Odd
 
Asger said:
So you are telling me AWB, McTom and Fred would play for Real Madrid?? Really??
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There’s a reason why Fred was coveted by Manchester City and is a regular start for arguably the best national team in the world. All the raw ingredients are there, but it is hard for anyone in our squad to thrive when there’s so little understanding of roles.

Worth reflecting too that Manchester City were also in for AWB. Another player who has fantastic assets and skills, some areas for development, but someone who could be coached into a being a top full back for a top side.

When every new player looks worse after a period at Manchester United, you have to ask questions of the coaching and why we cannot build a team that gets the most out of players. It’s not just one or two. It is every single player.
 
Ole couldn’t build a fart.

Any rebuild starts with a new manager, who after feck knows how much has been spent should have the basis of a very good squad.
 
No. Imo the rebuild has to be completed by Ogs and with the assistance of the academy lads too. The midfield doesn't protect the defence, Matic is good for 20 mins, and bar Fernandes doesn't contribute to the attacking line of the XI.. Maguire has been playing unfit, Shaw needs to be rested but Jones needs to be sold..

It's a evolution and progression than total revamp and we need players who are easier to manage than Poggers and static Matic..
 
I think the original post has been somewhat harshly treated. I know blaming it all on the manager seems to be the order of the day.

But I think the longer some of these players go without being anywhere near a title challenging player the more the question is there as to whether they are good enough. Mainly because when we say "they're good enough" or "look at how they performed in X season" it's mainly relative to our own recent standards, not necessarily the top sides.

You can say it's the coaching but there is just as much evidence for the players being off it as there is the manager. In fact the two things are nearly indistinguishable for a lot of these players that have never done it, there isn't an evidence base that says they're title class. We are just hoping they are if we get a new manager because what can you do...you can't change a whole squad, so it's convenient to pray this lot can do it.

We know Ronaldo and Varane are because they've been there and done it. But even our first XI is full of lads that have it all to prove. AWB, Maguire, Shaw, McFred, Rashford, you can make a case they all have to deliver more rather than simply good talk.

And yes the manager is on the hook no matter what the belief in these players is as it's his side. But it's still a separate question from whether these players have it in the locker and it's just awaiting a great coach to unlock it all.
 
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Squad wise we need two new CMs and a new RB because Wan Bissaka, Fred and McTominay aren't good enough and Pogba is leaving. No big rebuild needed with the team. The infrastructure of the club definitely needs a revamp though, yes.
 
At some stage, eventually, OGS will be gone.

And making a big assumption that the board appoints a recognised top coach, there will be some fine tuning required.

Not a new side
 
Coops73 said:
I literally have no fecking idea what you’re getting at here. You seem too be agreeing but cnuting me off in the same post.

Odd
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Nope not agreeing with you. The Glazers need to get rid of the middle managers running Utd -- the ones who constantly buy the wrong players and employ the wrong managers. The ones who hire Utd retreds over and over for positions that require knowledge and skill.
 
A professional club should never need a rebuild, just a continuous retooling.

Look at our squad, Mata, Jones and Martial aren’t good enough and should be let go by the end of the season.

You sign a first team defensive midfielder, you sell Fred.

You bring in Laird and have him compete for the right back spot.

Henderson should be sold with a small buy back clause.

Most of the players that are out on loan aren’t good enough, you sell majority of them. The club should decide if they prefer Garner or Gailbraith and sell the other with a buy back clause. Sell Williams.

If we can’t get Haaland, we should determine whether Greenwood can be the back up to Ronaldo playing down the middle and if he isn’t ready, you sign a back up for now.
 
Nicoseth said:
What rebuild? A half decent manager could turn those players into a very good team.
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We have one of the best first teams in Europe. We just need one addition to the midfield and then we need to sort out the back end of our squad
 
steffyr2 said:
Nope not agreeing with you. The Glazers need to get rid of the middle managers running Utd -- the ones who constantly buy the wrong players and employ the wrong managers. The ones who hire Utd retreds over and over for positions that require knowledge and skill.
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They’re the ones that have hired them for fecks sake.

They’ve owned the club for 16 years they don’t give a feck about the football side of things as long as we’re making money for them happy days.

Occasionally we as fans will kick off, they’ll buy a Ronaldo (which if I’m not mistaken sent the share prices soaring and then they sold some shares making 130m odd) and then it’s all tickety boo again and then people like you make excuses for them by trying to tell everyone it’s somebody else’s fault, they’ve spent money blah, blah, blah.

like I said it probably sounds a bit rich coming from me who doesn’t pay good money for a season ticket because it won’t be me chasing the cnuts down Sir Mat Busby way but I won’t be patting them on the back for a job well done like you either.
 
Coops73 said:
They’re the ones that have hired them for fecks sake.

They’ve owned the club for 16 years they don’t give a feck about the football side of things as long as we’re making money for them happy days.

Occasionally we as fans will kick off, they’ll buy a Ronaldo (which if I’m not mistaken sent the share prices soaring and then they sold some shares making 130m odd) and then it’s all tickety boo again and then people like you make excuses for them by trying to tell everyone it’s somebody else’s fault, they’ve spent money blah, blah, blah.

like I said it probably sounds a bit rich coming from me who doesn’t pay good money for a season ticket because it won’t be me chasing the cnuts down Sir Mat Busby way but I won’t be patting them on the back for a job well done like you either.
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Yeah people keep saying this. Maybe it's true. That's what they do, manage the money.
Would it be ok with you if they threw every ex-Utd person out of the club management and brought in a new set, ones with proven experience?
You see, I don't think it would be ok with most of the Utd fans. They didn't care that Ole had no experience when he got the mgmt job, he was Ole. They don't care that Fletcher has a tbd job with tbd responsibilities. etc etc That's what "United DNA" means.
The Glazers have figured out how to keep the club ticking along, and being profitable, while supporting the fans want for ex-players to staff the club. This is what the fans want. Until they can't stand watching the results on the field.
 
steffyr2 said:
Yeah people keep saying this. Maybe it's true. That's what they do, manage the money.
Would it be ok with you if they threw every ex-Utd person out of the club management and brought in a new set, ones with proven experience?
You see, I don't think it would be ok with most of the Utd fans. They didn't care that Ole had no experience when he got the mgmt job, he was Ole. They don't care that Fletcher has a tbd job with tbd responsibilities. etc etc That's what "United DNA" means.
The Glazers have figured out how to keep the club ticking along, and being profitable, while supporting the fans want for ex-players to staff the club. This is what the fans want. Until they can't stand watching the results on the field.
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Is it? I think the fans just want the club to be run properly by people who now how a football club works not by people like the Glazers, Woodward or Richard Arnold.

Any rebuild has to start there in my opinion because the same shit will just perpetuate year after year.
 
I agree with the OP.
We all are on the same page on that we need a top manager and a professional structure in general. A better coach would surely get more out of our current set of players.

However, we tend to overrate our squad. It is completely unbalanced and as great of a footballer Ronaldo still can be his arrival has further contributed to the problem. In some ways he helped highlighting Ole's limitations even more as he has to start each game now, no matter what Ole wants. And the only success we had under Ole was when we played counter-attacking football with fast and direct players, something we cannot do anymore.
Partially this is also due to the fact everybody now knows how to get us into trouble. We got a bunch of starters who are not confident with the ball at their feet when they get pressed (Maguire, McTominay, Fred, AWB, Lindelöf, also Matic, Pogba). And as long as you isolate the forwards we do not have much left in the locker except a few great and surprising moments by our most talented players.

I can imagine that a new manager would start to use players like DvB, Sancho, Lingard, maybe even Martial or Dalot more. Also despite his shortcomings I feel that Bailly might be the second-best CB we got after Varane.
And I agree that we need at least 3-4 more players which is a bit of a shame when we look at what we spent and how our wage bill looks like.
 
Jacob said:
Trainwreck of a thread. Most players (bar McFred) are good enough with proper instructions and management.
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Even someone like Fred has a harsh reputation IMO. The guy does very well for Brazil as a regular starter in a more balanced team with a holding midfielder next to him. I think a lot of top coaches would make good use out of Fred, better than what Ole is doing.
 
We have a squad of players that prefer to play in front of empty stadiums and bottled it against Villarreal in the EL Final. On paper they might look great but there are still serious question marks over them.
 
We have a manager who makes this group of players look like much less than the sum of its parts. Let's judge these players once a proper manager has given them a decent run.
 
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