Rebuild job needed…again

a manager like Klopp would push hard for the league with this squad so I reject the idea the players collectively aren't good enough. Sure we've a few players we could improve upon but we've only 2 significant issues with our squad for me.

lack of a quality deep lying midfielder and an attacking right back

We need top management and coaches but more importantly we need top football people running things behind the scenes too
 
It's never as bad as you think. Chelsea looked miles off under Lampard and now they're one of the favourites for league and champions league.

A quality coach who can actually get the best out of the players we have, get them playing as a cohesive unit and 2 or 3 signings on top and we're right up there.
 
The majority of the player you listed are just really badly out of form,

Maguire has for the most part been a really solid CB for us wether people want to admit it or not, Shaw was the best LB in the country and one of the best in Europe last season , AWB is one of the best RB’s at defending in the country and is very young but needs proper coaching to iron out mistakes,

I’d say the only position that needs an overhaul is midfield , Scott has his uses as a squad player, Matic should have been sold a few seasons ago and Fred …. well Fred just isn’t United quality at all and needs to be shipped asap
 
Dominos said:
It's never as bad as you think. Chelsea looked miles off under Lampard and now they're one of the favourites for league and champions league.

A quality coach who can actually get the best out of the players we have, get them playing as a cohesive unit and 2 or 3 signings on top and we're right up there.
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Totally agree.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Did Chelsea need a rebuild when Tuchel came in?

What we need is a better coach, when better coaching happens the mistakes we see now will stop akin to how Tuchel resolved all the issues that were there under Lampard without the need for a rebuild
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No but in fairness Chelsea had just bought a brand new football team a few months prior. Tuchel just knew how to put the pieces together and park the bus to a CL trophy.
 
Dominos said:
It's never as bad as you think. Chelsea looked miles off under Lampard and now they're one of the favourites for league and champions league.

A quality coach who can actually get the best out of the players we have, get them playing as a cohesive unit and 2 or 3 signings on top and we're right up there.
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Totally agree. We have a decent squad and with a couple of new additions each summer we should be right up there.

The Chelsea situation is 100% proof that if you put a good coaching team behind the squad it pays.

Our coaches, Solskjaer, Phelan, Carrick etc are pure dross.
 
onetwo3oclock4oclockrock said:
This squad, without Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho, was the 2nd best team last year. No need for a rebuild. Add a quality CM and it might be the strongest squad in the league.
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I think we need 2 CMs realistically to be fair.

We've been trying to get Pogba to work in a deep midfield role for 6 years mostly unsuccessfully and he'll be gone soon, Matic legs have gone, Mctominay and Fred should be squad players. VDB I'm not sure if he may turn it round under new manager but he's a question mark.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
This squad should be competing. No ifs or buts.
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Talent on paper, they look good. But the reality is different.

If we get a world class coach in summer there's slim chance that - De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, AwB, Lindeloff, Fred, McTominay, Matic, Mata, Martial, Rashford, Bruno, Lingard - would be deemed good enough.

If we get a top coach that wants to implement a high press set up then I only see Sancho and DvB being able to hit the ground running in such a set up.
 
Guys I have been saying it for years that unless we replace our Goalie we won’t be a consistent team. We will be going in circles. He is the major reason for our lack of progress over last few years. Our defence will always look bad because of him. However, we need to upgrade our midfield too. We need 2-3 quality midfielders to control the game. But the change in goalkeeping is first thing required before we do anything else.
 
What I would say is the squad hasn't won anything yet. People insisting it should challenge for the league and champions league...they bottled it against Villarreal in the EL final. You need the mentality between the ears and we haven't' been in a real title race yet, last season the moment it looked like we might have a sniff of a title run it collapsed. It has to be proven before you can say a bunch of players are the best squad in the league and potential title winners, like we can't even make it to January in a title race before we're out of it, I am not convinced we're capable of winning big games come April and May.

Comparisons to Chelsea's squad, they have a bunch better track record in the past 10 years than we do of making successful signings.
 
RedCoffee said:
Totally agree. We have a decent squad and with a couple of new additions each summer we should be right up there.

The Chelsea situation is 100% proof that if you put a good coaching team behind the squad it pays.
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There is an awful lot riding on this being true. The proposition is that Chelsea had a balanced squad and just needed a decent coach and therefore it follows that we have a balanced squad and also just need a decent coach.

I don't think it's true though. Chelsea have Kante for starters. Where is our Kante?

It didn't used to be the case, but these days Chelsea have a player recruitment strategy based on football need, not shirt sales. We're not comparable.
 
The idea this squad is just a midfielder away from challenging is nonsense. Squad looks better on paper than it actually is, it’s been poorly put together with no plan and little thought.

We need about 5 positions sorted out and there’s also issues like how you accommodate a num we of players. Some of that will be solved by tactics/coaching etc but how much and how long it will take is another matter. Deadwood will have to go and new players will have to come.

A bigger problem is the culture, attitude, work rate and accountability. Ole has set a low standard, raising that might not be quick or easy. There’s also the lack of any plan on or off the ball and I wouldn’t be shocked if next manager starts talking about a rebuild.

This is a mess, not irreversible but it’s a very tough job and a lot of time and patience has been used up by Ole, manager will inherit a 4 year trophy drought as well probably.
 
Judas said:
Judge the players when a new manager comes in, nows not the time to throw some of these players under the bus when they're working under a hopeless regime.
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Exactly. Chelsea went from a flaky team to the best defense in the world that became Champions of Europe in about a month because they got a much better manager.
 
The problem at the moment is we are set up like a Mourinho side despite what that fraud ole says about the united way,

Ole tends to go with players the have poor low centre of gravity, ability to work in tight spaces and agility, we play with two defensive midfielders that are more known more for their physical and off the ball capabilities than their technical ability on the ball, we then favour roy of the rovers type players like pogba and bruno who give the ball away an awful lot and not ideal players you would have in a high pressing and possession based side that control the tempo of matches, followed by a striker who doesn't offer much but goals, we then also have a right back and centre back who's main strengths are certainly physical attributes they have rather than their technical ability in and out of possession hence why the likes of Maguire and bissaka are always getting caught with positioning and then there is the goalkeeper who is poor with his distribution.

Are best players that would be more suited to a side comfortable in possession and not turning the ball over to the opposition as often as we do to leave us constantly open to being exposed defensively are mostly sat on the bench.
 
In terms of squad I don’t think we need a re build at all. Yes, a few players need to go and we need to re-enforce a few areas, particularly in midfield but there’s plenty of pieces there to work with, we just need the coach who can put it together.
 
Dinesh Tomar said:
Guys I have been saying it for years that unless we replace our Goalie we won’t be a consistent team. We will be going in circles. He is the major reason for our lack of progress over last few years. Our defence will always look bad because of him. However, we need to upgrade our midfield too. We need 2-3 quality midfielders to control the game. But the change in goalkeeping is first thing required before we do anything else.
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Other seasons this might be true, but this season he's been in pretty strong form and kept us from losing to some heavy defeats.

The second goal wasn't great, but Shaw has let their guy poke it at goal from about a metre out .
 
Tyrion said:
Exactly. Chelsea went from a flaky team to the best defense in the world that became Champions of Europe in about a month because they got a much better manager.
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Therefore logically so will we?
 
Ah Manchester United, the only team in world football that, whenever a new manager comes in, always needs a minimum rebuild of around 3 years before we see anything. With other clubs managers come in and you see what they are doing straight away, they improve players, they impose a style, see Tuchel and Patrick Vieira for recent examples. But no no no, we need a r e b u i l d.

The clubs poor choice in recruitment and management has blinded so many of you it’s unreal
 
No this is not a rebuild project. Ole has done really well to build a solid squad. 1-2 signings for DM (starter DM) pulls it together.

The problem is Ronaldo’s signing has demanded a tactical upgrade in optimizing a system of play to accommodate for his heavy attacking.

Someone with the know how has to create an automatic system of play with defined tasks and duties to allow us to unlock the next stage of team success.

Oles great at motivating individuals and getting them to ‘show up’ but absolutely no clue how to create a system.

A good caretaker is Zidane. He knows how to organize a collective of highly talented footballers. He knows talent like that needs systems and balance behind them. He did that at RM and won a ridiculous amount of trophies. We could have easily looked back at his time and said ‘he had a very powerful CR7 that unbalanced his team, that’s why he didn’t win trophies’. But we don’t.
 
We dont need a rebuild in the sense we did post Mourinho because I refuse to believe our current team wouldnt be doing better under a different manager.

A manager coming in has a pretty good squad to work with (other than a gigantic hole in midfield) the problem will be fixing the defeatist mentality and out of form players like Shaw and Maguire.

We need a manager who is tactically smarter and able to instill a pattern of play in our team (and ideally wont burn the club down for immeadiate success.)
 
glazed said:
There is an awful lot riding on this being true. The proposition is that Chelsea had a balanced squad and just needed a decent coach and therefore it follows that we have a balanced squad and also just need a decent coach.

I don't think it's true though. Chelsea have Kante for starters. Where is our Kante?

It didn't used to be the case, but these days Chelsea have a player recruitment strategy based on football need, not shirt sales. We're not comparable.
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Chelsea were missing a proper number 9 last year just as much as we are missing a proper number 6 this year. It didn’t stop them from winning.

You’d be surprised at how many of our defensive players who are ‘bad’ right now, would improve under decent coaching. Look at the performances Klopp gets from players deemed to be average. Those players would look as bad as Maguire, Wan Bissaka, McTominay if Ole was managing them. A good coach would make them a winning team even without a proper DM number 6.

Our squad is not as unbalanced as some make it out to be. It just looks unbalanced when Ole tries to park the bus and leaves many attacking players on the bench.
 
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Ralph1386 said:
Our squad is not as unbalanced as some make it out to be. It just looks unbalanced when Ole tries to park the bus and leaves many attacking players on the bench.
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I agree scraping a top four finish is possible with a decent coach and a bit of tinkering. But I don't think we can be as good as Chelsea, Liverpool or City without a major rebuild - because we don't have high press players and that's the only way.
 
glazed said:
But I don't think we can be as good as Chelsea, Liverpool or City without a major rebuild - because we don't have high press players and that's the only way.
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This is where I respectfully disagree with you. I think this squad can challenge them and is worth much more than scrapping for 4th. We may need a couple of additions, but that would not qualify as a major rebuild to me. Major rebuild is when you’ve got to buy almost an entirely new starting eleven.
 
Ralph1386 said:
This is where I respectfully disagree with you. I think this squad can challenge them and is worth much more than scrapping for 4th. We may need a couple of additions, but that would not qualify as a major rebuild to me. Major rebuild is when you’ve got to buy almost an entirely new starting eleven.
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I would agree if I could see a tactical formation that resembles the players we have that is capable of winning silverware. Maybe Conte could have come close but I don't think he would have won anything.

But other than the Madrid Galactico model we have only seen high press teams consistently winning in recent years. And we have a number of players who I reckon would never fit well into that model of play. De Gea, Ronaldo, Pogba, AWB for sure. Rashford, Martial, Maguire and Greenwood quite likely. It's quite a problem if you want to actually win stuff rather than just look like you are trying.

It's compounded by the fact the Glazers really only need to look like they are trying in order to fool the more credulous fans into parting with their cash.
 
glazed said:
Therefore logically so will we?
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No but our players are in a shit system. If they were playing in a good one, they'd be better.

Sancho and VdB were great before they got here and anonymous once they did. If we get a good manager, the reverse could happen for most of the squad.
 
Tyrion said:
No but our players are in a shit system. If they were playing in a good one, they'd be better.
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Yes but what is this new system? Or will they just get better for 6 months because that's what happens with a new coach. As with Ole.
 
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glazed said:
But other than the Madrid Galactico model we have only seen high press teams consistently winning in recent years. And we have a number of players who I reckon would never fit well into that model of play. De Gea, Ronaldo, Pogba, AWB for sure. Rashford, Martial, Maguire and Greenwood quite likely. It's quite a problem if you want to actually win stuff rather than just look like you are trying.
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So you’re saying that the only way forward is to play high press, and you’re suggesting that most of our players aren’t capable of doing that, therefore they need replacing and we need to go through another rebuild?

If that’s what your logic behind a rebuild then I can’t disagree with you more.
 
Ralph1386 said:
If that’s what your logic behind a rebuild then I can’t disagree with you more.
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You and the Glazers both. But until we recognise the cul de sac we've been driving up the last 5 years we won't be able to reverse out of it.
 
glazed said:
You and the Glazers both. But until we recognise the cul de sac we've been driving up the last 5 years we won't be able to reverse out of it.
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Me and the Glazers? :wenger: Just because I don’t think the entire squad needs a rebuild you put me in the same boat as the Glazers to try to win a debate? Does that also apply to everyone else in this thread who doesn’t think we need a major rebuild? They’re all Glazers now also?
 
Ralph1386 said:
Me and the Glazers? :wenger: Just because I don’t think the entire squad needs a rebuild you put me in the same boat as the Glazers to try to win a debate? Does that also apply to everyone else in this thread who doesn’t think we need a major rebuild? They’re all Glazers now also?
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Obviously unlike the Glazers you are not a greed crazed capitalist raping the football club (well I assume not.)

The point is the Glazers are happy to have us look like we are in contention and not to win anything. Because they know the fans will fall for it and keep paying out. The drama is the product, not the silverware. What matters is for fans to see through that con by asking the right questions which are:

1. Who regularly wins big silverware in England?
Answer. High press teams

2. Do we have the players to do that if we had the right coach?
Answer. No

Once you recognise those two things the rest is pretty clear.
 
glazed said:
Obviously unlike the Glazers you are not a greed crazed capitalist raping the football club (well I assume not.)

The point is the Glazers are happy to have us look like we are in contention and not to win anything. Because they know the fans will fall for it and keep paying out. The drama is the product, not the silverware. What matters is for fans to see through that con by asking the right questions which are:

1. Who regularly wins big silverware in England?
Answer. High press teams

2. Do we have the players to do that if we had the right coach?
Answer. No

Once you recognise those two things the rest is pretty clear.
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Sancho and DvB could slot straight into a team playing high press. Not sure about any other players tbh - pretty clear that if Ole goes it means the start of another 3-5 year project that includes significant squad change, can't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
 
glazed said:
Yes but what is this new system? Or will they just get better for 6 months because that's what happens with a new coach. As with Ole.
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Actual pressing? Some sort of defensive plan beyond 8 behind the ball + Cavani, Bruno and Ronaldo?

Ole improved them for several months because he wasn't Mourinho and is good at motivating them. But now his shortcomings are being exposed. Conte/Tuchel (for example) don't have those shortcomings.
 
We don’t need a rebuild. We just need someone to come in and get this team playing to its full capability. On paper it can easily challenge for the title, plus maybe a midfielder or two.
 
I think match going fans need to be vociferous in their anger, look what happened after the Liverpool game but it needs to be constant and loud, feck! let’s get more games stopped, it makes very negative headlines for the glazers, look at the reaction of the spurs fans and then what happened to their manager.

Ultimately it’s the Glazers that need to be gone and we need the protests to be loud, prolonged and headline grabbing.

I didn’t see the end of the game yesterday so I’d be intrigued to hear from someone what the fans reaction was like.

It feels a bit rich coming from someone like me who rarely gets to old Trafford these days but I really think it’s those match going fans that can make a difference in getting a change from the management and coaching team (which I don’t feel overly comfortable saying)to the Glazers themselves.

Then and only then can there be a proper rebuild but I’m just not sure there’s the stomach for it though because it will take a lot of effort, time and people’s sanity because these cnuts that run our club are not going to leave easily.
 
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