Ralf: United switching to 4-3-3

I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now. Yes upgrading midfield is an important step we need to take going forward but imo right now to allow us to really push for top 4 the biggest thing we can do is not surrender possession so easily and that comes primarily from our attacking players and the likes of Bruno being better/more mature and sensible on the ball. Linked to this the attacking players have to become a more cohesive unit.

That said I think if we are going to play with a 3rd midfielder more often that should help us get more control in games and so I think it's the right move but as I said it's the mentality that really needs to change.
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now
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Its our biggest issue. Look at the goals we concede, if we had someone in the midfield who can recognise danger, we win the game against Villa.

If we have a midfielder that senses danger, Moutinho is closed down.
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now. Yes upgrading midfield is an important step we need to take going forward but imo right now to allow us to really push for top 4 the biggest thing we can do is not surrender possession so easily and that comes primarily from our attacking players and the likes of Bruno being better/more mature and sensible on the ball. Linked to this the attacking players have to become a more cohesive unit.

That said I think if we are going to play with a 3rd midfielder more often that should help us get more control in games and so I think it's the right move but as I said it's the mentality that really needs to change.
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DM is the single most important issue with our team atm, everyone can see it, are you trying to be original? Every well run team plays with a class holding midfielder, Rodri, Jorginho, Kante, Fabinho. Blaming nonchalance of the attackers is such a lazy argument, watch our last game again and see who failed to track their players, it's Matic and Fred at fault for the goals. Before that we were leading thanks to two goals from Bruno..
 
Cloud7 said:
I would never object to a shift in anything based on a single player. All the top teams play with three in midfield (Except for Bayern where Muller is as functional as a midfielder anyway). If Bruno cannot adapt to that then we move on.
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I get where you're coming from, but all things within reason I guess. This isn't just any player, but very much the dynamo of our whole offensive game for the past couple of years. I would argue it's a better approach to adapt formation to the players you have than vice versa.

Anyway, it's not like 433 is the overwhelming default among top teams in Europa. Chelsea for instance doesn't play with three in the midfield (3421). Nor Atletico, Juventus or Borussia Dortmund. And you could have a discussion about whether what City does in possession can really be described as 433.

Still, judging from the Villa game, it might just work, including for Bruno. We'll see.
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now. Yes upgrading midfield is an important step we need to take going forward but imo right now to allow us to really push for top 4 the biggest thing we can do is not surrender possession so easily and that comes primarily from our attacking players and the likes of Bruno being better/more mature and sensible on the ball. Linked to this the attacking players have to become a more cohesive unit.

That said I think if we are going to play with a 3rd midfielder more often that should help us get more control in games and so I think it's the right move but as I said it's the mentality that really needs to change.
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A DM is vital. Without it we dont have a functional midfield and will lose the midfield battle way to often, resulting in us losing or drawing to much. The mentality of the players will as a result of this suffer. With a functional midfield and more controll in games im sure the mentality will get the best boost it can get short term. In the summer we off course need a major clearout of the squad.
 
A bit weird to suddenly come out with this. Seems like it gives the next few opponents a very definitive way in which to prepare, whereas you didn't really know what to expect from us of late. Albeit it wouldn't be a secret for long, but I'm not sure what the advantage to stating it to the media is.
 
Fitchett said:
Fergie played him there.
Or Lindelof, considering he played that role for Benfica.
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I'd rather see Lindelöf than Maguire in CB currently. But if Ralf has a plan with replacing Maguire and using Lindelöf as a DM, why not? He has been very open about this idea and told that DM is something he'd like to play.
 
justsomebloke said:
I get where you're coming from, but all things within reason I guess. This isn't just any player, but very much the dynamo of our whole offensive game for the past couple of years. I would argue it's a better approach to adapt formation to the players you have than vice versa.

Anyway, it's not like 433 is the overwhelming default among top teams in Europa. Chelsea for instance doesn't play with three in the midfield (3421). Nor Atletico, Juventus or Borussia Dortmund. And you could have a discussion about whether what City does in possession can really be described as 433.

Still, judging from the Villa game, it might just work, including for Bruno. We'll see.
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Yes i agree completely. I would still like us to try 3-4-3 the way Tuchel or Conte set up their teams. I think that could work with our players.
 
So if this formation tweak leads to better results and performances, is it fair to question why he didn't consider this sooner rather than the absolute tosh served up after the 30th minute against Palace?
 
Maybe the two 8s should drop quicker and help around the box, especially when it's Matic that's holding the fort. Vs Villa the second half was a shit show. Fred was further up the pitch than Cavani sometimes.
 
Abraxas said:
A bit weird to suddenly come out with this. Seems like it gives the next few opponents a very definitive way in which to prepare, whereas you didn't really know what to expect from us of late. Albeit it wouldn't be a secret for long, but I'm not sure what the advantage to stating it to the media is.
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Agreed
 
Rozay said:
Sounds good in principle, but the actual midfielders themselves are not up to the task so it will make little difference.
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That's pretty much how I see it, we don't have anybody capable of playing as a #6, Villa's midfield ran onto our back 4 with ease as Matic doesn't have the mobility or legs against mobile, energetic opposition, and both of McFred are positionally poor.
 
Devil may care said:
That's pretty much how I see it, we don't have anybody capable of playing as a #6, Villa's midfield ran onto our back 4 with ease as Matic doesn't have the mobility or legs against mobile, energetic opposition, and both of McFred are positionally poor.
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Before we even get to that, quite simply, our central midfielders do not have the ability to pass a football, which will render any midfield setup irrelevant except in defensive phases.
 
Leftback99 said:
It worked for half an hour on Saturday. We need a better 6 than Matic or McTominay though.

On a side note he also said Matic contract was expiring in the summer which was odd.
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I know, I'm pretty sure Matic signed a 3 year contract in July 2020, so he's here until July 2023.
Absolutely ridiculous contact to give by the way so I hope he's contract is up, this summer, nothing personal, he seems like a model professional and a great guy but anyone thinking he's still good enough to play in a team that's going to challenge for the premier League or champions League has lost the plot.
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now. Yes upgrading midfield is an important step we need to take going forward but imo right now to allow us to really push for top 4 the biggest thing we can do is not surrender possession so easily and that comes primarily from our attacking players and the likes of Bruno being better/more mature and sensible on the ball. Linked to this the attacking players have to become a more cohesive unit.

That said I think if we are going to play with a 3rd midfielder more often that should help us get more control in games and so I think it's the right move but as I said it's the mentality that really needs to change.
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Stopped reading from there. It's our single biggest issue.
 
There are no secrets with Ralf!...ask him anything and he will tell you all you need to know.

Thomas Frank should of given him a call and asked for the starting eleven and tactics for tonight's game.
 
Kerry Donaghy said:
I know, I'm pretty sure Matic signed a 3 year contract in July 2020, so he's here until July 2023.
Absolutely ridiculous contact to give by the way so I hope he's contract is up, this summer, nothing personal, he seems like a model professional and a great guy but anyone thinking he's still good enough to play in a team that's going to challenge for the premier League or champions League has lost the plot.
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That what it was announced as on the website. Maybe it was a 2+1year option.
 
Music to my ears, and fair play to RR for not being so stubborn with his 4222 and identifying that we look better in a 433.

By no means are we the finished article, but it was clear to see we had better control both on and off the ball against Villa.

We just need to now identify the type of players we need to get the best out of the system.

Rashford Ronaldo Greenwood
New CM New CDM Bruno
Shaw Maguire Varane New RB
De Gea​

Before anyone jumps on me, the above team is in hope that the find their form they displayed last season.
 
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Ash_G said:
I don't think the DM is the real issue for what we need right now. Yes upgrading midfield is an important step we need to take going forward but imo right now to allow us to really push for top 4 the biggest thing we can do is not surrender possession so easily and that comes primarily from our attacking players and the likes of Bruno being better/more mature and sensible on the ball. Linked to this the attacking players have to become a more cohesive unit.

That said I think if we are going to play with a 3rd midfielder more often that should help us get more control in games and so I think it's the right move but as I said it's the mentality that really needs to change.
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i agree. Our midfield isn’t world class. That’s true. It’s a few squad players bungled together and it’s a mess. But still the main problem in our team is our forward line, all on world class wages, look like they couldn’t care less about each other.McT and Fred are actually having to provide creativity now on top of the other work they do. It doesn’t really matter who is in midfield if we continue to waste all of our good chances or the ball just keeps coming back at them as we keep getting turned over trying stupid dribbles and shots. Like look at our forwards numbers and work rate. That’s not on the midfield. They are just an easy target. Hopefully having more legs in the middle and less walking around up front will tip the balance of work rate back in our favour because our attack is terrible and massively overrated either way
 
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If I were a manager at a club I would tell my team go out and press high and hard. Allow united to make its own mistakes, and dont make any for our team. If United dont score within the first 50 minutes... they will get ancy and the game is ours.
With a little luck, it seems like the perfect formula to beat United.
 
Fair f*cks.Shows Ragnick's not too stubborn and he's intelligent enough to be flexible.Excellent.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Stopped reading from there. It's our single biggest issue.
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You should have carried on because he made a decent point. Personnel is important but what we do in possession is key. A DM is just the first step. Even Carrick can't hold back the floodgates of having to endure wave after wave of attack in a team that pushes up. They are still human. If the aim is to go back to being a team that can push teams back intelligent possession is key. The number of possessions we give the other team with strikers that shoot on sight and playmakers that spam hoofs is costly to our defence. Makes sense, doesn't it.

A good DM will ensure we are sturdy when we do get pushed back but we don't want to be getting pushed back in the first place. We should be able to sustain possession better than the other team.
 
Abraxas said:
A bit weird to suddenly come out with this. Seems like it gives the next few opponents a very definitive way in which to prepare, whereas you didn't really know what to expect from us of late. Albeit it wouldn't be a secret for long, but I'm not sure what the advantage to stating it to the media is.
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Might be to pressure the club to buy Haidara if he sees him as a 6 and is making the argument that the club has 4 options for the 2 #8 spots (Bruno, Fred, Pogba, McTominay) but only Matic as a 6.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Stopped reading from there. It's our single biggest issue.
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Also we're not going to replace 10 players around Bruno and Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, Amad and Elanga have age and potential on their side. At DM and CB and really #8 (once Pogba leaves this summer) we're basically drawing dead. Maybe RB too depending on one's view of Dalot and/or Wan-Bissaka.

The players who have over a 1/3 chance to perform over the next 3-5 years as first team XI players currently here, apart from Pogba, is probably this just going by talent, age and production over their careers:

Front 3: Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho and let's count Amad/Elanga as 1 guy in a fight to the death
CMs: Bruno, Van De Beek
DM: Nobody
RB: Maybe Dalot as he was highly rated and is 22 and Wan-Bissaka an outside chance despite what my eyes tell me, probably Nobody though if I'm pressed
LB: Shaw, Telles (Closer to 3 years though, not 5)
CB: Varane, Nobody, (Lindelof as a backup sure)
GK: De Gea, Henderson

So yeah, that's a DM, a CM, a RB and a CB before we even think about another attacker for me.
 
Mr Anderson said:
it isn’t. He has still misplaced passes and lost the ballhigher up the pitch on serval occasions - hauled off at half time vs Newcastle and on the bench for the next 2 shows that he isn’t polished enough at times and it costs him when he decides to take that extra touch or play a ball to a player that has 3 of the opposition around him. It’s the same mistakes happening, he isn’t the only one but it’s a simple example that there needs to be more to it than just changing our shape a bit.
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He's won us the most points from midfield in Rangknick's time here. Have his perfmances under Rangknick been costl

Fred being dropped means nothing when McTominay stinks up the place and retains his place whenever fit. Fred has been better than you give him credit for
 
433 with the exact same players that couldn’t manage to play 4222.. if we lose tonight there needs to be a massive clear out
 
4-2-2, 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 doesn’t matter until we but some bloody good midfielders
 
SeanyC said:
4-2-2, 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 doesn’t matter until we but some bloody good midfielders
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And defenders and attackers... our whole team plays terribly and I just can’t understand why. It can’t be just down to lack of world class mids.
 
Biggins said:
And defenders and attackers... our whole team plays terribly and I just can’t understand why. It can’t be just down to lack of world class mids.
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Easy. You just need a world class manager.
 
Biggins said:
Hansi do you fancy a challenge?
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Case of mistaken identity. I'm not in fact the German NT manager posting here, and my last name is spelled somewhat differently from his. Personally, I would be intrigued and honoured of course but possibly also too lazy, not to speak of the complete lack of know-how.
 
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