[Bilbo]

Must be me, but I didn’t see and haven’t seen any improvement on what OGS was delivering. Home game, 90 minutes of insipid uninspiring football with a winning goal in the last play of the game. Great to get the three points but seriously this team is underwhelming.

You and @NZT-One are putting out opinions that aren't going to be received well on here, but you're not wrong. A lot of posters (one in particular) are seeing things through a deep rooted Ole=bad/Ralf=good lens.

Ultimately we've just come through a week with 7 points when it could also easily have ended up anywhere between 1 & 9. I like Ralf, but its important that we are clear on what we are seeing without going overboard either way, because the performances would have been largely the same whether we'd have 1 point or 7 or 9.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

The fan memory is so short! Recall last season's Southampton match which we won 9-0. The same energy, pace and purpose was evident then too.

The problem with Ole has been these were mostly isolated events. Hope with Ralf, we become much more consistent.

Southampton played with 10 men all game and had two sent off.

 

[Bilbo]

Defensively we improved yesterday. Strikers are living on scraps.

Watching games live you can just see how limited our back 6 are at missing the obvious pass or even misplacing the obvious. When any decent cross comes in Ronaldo is the only forward in the area and is easily crowded out. There's just not much creativity in the team with the exception of Bruno. Hopefully, Pogba returns wanting to prove he's worth the money to his future club and go on to have a good end of the season finale.

Agree about Pogba. It's bizarre that I'm both looking forward to him coming back while also wanting him to leave, but he isn't going to do us any harm creatively. It's where he fits into the team and at what cost that is, as always, the question.

 

[NZT-One]

You need your eyes checked if you really think we played like this under Ole.

Players are actually putting in effort to press and chasedown players and our attacking play is no longer centred around Bruno. Fred and Scott are given more freedom to join up further upfield and to provide more passing outlets nearer to goal.

Greenwood's charging across the pitch to help defend when we were being countered shows the difference Ralf has done with the squad so far, no chance Greenwood would have done that under Ole where he basically camped in the opponents half for most of the game.

If anything, we resembled LVG's team, choking off possession for the opponents but still struggling to get goals.

Ok, you are right. I agree, there is more effort to be seen in the players. And less tendency for brainfarts. Thats an improvement.
I didn't see anything I would call pressing though. We were engaging Westham enthusiasticly but we did that under Ole too from time to time.

Remember I am not an Ole-apologist, I just think it isn't very fair to criticize things on one occasion and ignoring it on the other.

But alright, I agree, there were a few improvements to be seen and we did play well in some aspects. Calling it dominant or controlling feels dangerous to me. Football is about creating chances to score for your team and deny the opposition such chances. Our "control" covered only the second aspect. So while it obviously sounds great to be in control, what is its value?

You keep saying there is no improvement and then also admit we are controlling games better. Doesn't make sense. We are playing through the middle a lot more than under Ole. Bruno has a starkly different role. We are playing a much higher line and our shape in defense is also much, much better.

If these aren't improvements, then what is? Yes we need to keep on improving as it's not the finished product but we are now seeing signs of where we want to go. We aren't just depending on a moment of magic all the time and are probing for an opening. Even Fred and McT are doing much better than ever compared to the last 3 years.

Your Antonio and Moyes comment must have been a joke. West Ham play a lot like the old Moyes teams. Just that they have some better players. You really need to see them more often.

Bruno plays more for the team. He should have done so under Ole as well. So alright, thats an improvement. But it isn't really a masterstroke is it?

Higher line? Not so sure about it. Didn't look like it to me at least. Certainly not as much as one could attest a big change.

Shape in Defense - you are right. That is better. Also the brainfarts are gone to some extent. That is a good thing. But this defensive stability is bought at a high price, because especially yesterday, we didn't create anything of note for more or less 90 minutes. That is one of the places where Ole had us at some point in is reign too. And like with Ole I hope, Ralf can take that stability and built up from it. Until now, there are no signs of it though.

We are not depending on moments of brilliance? Well ^^ what are we depending on right now? I am curious? Have you seen attacking moves reoccuring? I understand your point - with Ole it was an issue because for 3 years it was like that - but I think it is pretty bolt to state that this is any different under Ralf now.

Fred and McTom did well under Ole as well. Granted, it is some time ago, but Fred was awesome I think the season before the last one. Short memories I guess and I understand, you would like to see stuff to feel secure about Ralf. I don't want to take that away, I am onboard his train. But some warning lights start to emerge. If they don't for you, consider yourself a lucky duck.

It was a 433 which we never played once under Ole. Control doesn't mean you have lots of shots.

I think you're just being lazy in thinking less shots = Ole ball.

Wow.... So I laying out my reasoning with explanations and examples is lazy in comparison to your 3 and 4 liners. Gotcha.

If we played 4-3-3 yesterday, we played 4-3-3 under Ole as well. Just look at the average positioning, unfortunately I can't show it to you as I don't find it at the sofa score web app. On the android app, there is a feature and it shows exactly what a 4-2-3-1 looks like. Granted, we had little more symetry, better use of space but to calling it a formation change seems wildly optimistic. If anything, we are executing the 4-2-3-1 now somewhat how it is majorly intended.

But alright - I got your point, you want to see improvements, you saw improvements. Lets end it on a positive note. Me not being able to see all of these improvements to the same extent is my problem.

 

[captaincantona]

West Ham would do well not to try and transition to a possession based team. Moyes hasn’t a fuking clue in that regard. They need to maximise their quality on the break and continue to play that way. With that in mind, we really did well not to ever really get caught. West Ham score goals...but they didn’t look like scoring yesterday.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It was a 433 which we never played once under Ole. Control doesn't mean you have lots of shots.

I think you're just being lazy in thinking less shots = Ole ball.

Well that’s not true, villareal at Old Trafford for example we played 433 with Scott as the CDM and 2 8’s

 

[NZT-One]

You and @NZT-One are putting out opinions that aren't going to be received well on here, but you're not wrong. A lot of posters (one in particular) are seeing things through a deep rooted Ole=bad/Ralf=good lens.

Ultimately we've just come through a week with 7 points when it could also easily have ended up anywhere between 1 & 9. I like Ralf, but its important that we are clear on what we are seeing without going overboard either way, because the performances would have been largely the same whether we'd have 1 point or 7 or 9.

Thanks for stating that. I agree. I want to make it clear, I have no intentions to make any player or manager look bad. I just want to be as neutral as it gets to have a clear picture. I read many posts and my earlier posts were too one-sided as some improvements are easy to be seen (more workrate from the wingers, Bruno more involved in midfield, more organized in defense, less individual errors). Yesterdays match was against tough opposition so probably I am a little harsh to expect more than what got delivered but 3 shots on target isn't great. One of them being a tapin from 2 metres and another one being Fred who stumbled more or less over the ball to somehow keep it, that tells a story about us not being able to translate our "control" to anything to capitalize on.

 

[croadyman]

Massively tricky game and coming away with a win was so so important before that break, point wise and morale wise .
Big big February month coming with PL games against Burnley , Southampton, Leeds and Watford, FA cup tie and CL tie.
We should be winning them all

Yeah really can't afford to drop any points before Spurs come to Old Trafford on March 5

 

[Denis79]

Must be me, but I didn’t see and haven’t seen any improvement on what OGS was delivering. Home game, 90 minutes of insipid uninspiring football with a winning goal in the last play of the game. Great to get the three points but seriously this team is underwhelming.

This game could easily be just a one off and we go back to our shitty ways but there were some pleasing differences. We looked a bit more solid in our organization and we used a high line press to force errors or create less desirable passing options for West Ham. This was something we didn't see much from Ole. Under Ole we instantly tried to fall back deep when we lost the ball. Which is better? I don't know but yesterday it gave us control of the game, a better team might rip us a part if we try the same?

Defensively we controlled the game, West ham had nothing dangerous going forward but then again neither did we, so that has to be greatly improved. This was one of the few games this season (both with Ole and RR) that we never looked like losing. It's not a big improvement but an improvement nonetheless.

 

[Maticmaker]

I thought the 'bits' in the game when we did well, lasted longer yesterday, so there is (IMO) some improvement. However, whilst our two centre backs did show they could cope with such as Antonio, (on his own) so the DM issue was not as important yesterday, but overall it is going to continue to be if Ralf is going to persist in using wing-backs like Telles and Dalot.
Looks like on some occasions he will go three at the back if he is unable to land the DM of our dreams!
Rice was impressive for West Ham, but don't think he is going anywhere else ..soon!!!

Playing out from the back (as opposed to lobbing over the top or long balls down the channels) to get us up the pitch is going to continue to rely on the wing-backs, but once we get near the opposing box our absence of really good, fast and accurate pass-and-move players is still noticeable, so we need 'box to box' players like McT (ought to be) to continue to try to arrive late in the box. It was noticeable yesterday that once or twice Fred had a go at carrying the ball into the opposition box, but his -pass-and-move skills can vary, from reasonable... to sh***, all in the same game.

The fact that the three (attacking) subs were all involved in the goal was gratifying, they all took up the right positions in respect of each other, they moved when they had to and passed when they had too, and Marcus on the end to finish off. Like to think that video's of that kind of goal we will see now on a regular basis on MOTD... but have to admit its more than likely to be one of those action video's that will get lodged in splendid isolation...... within our archives!

 

[calodo2003]

 

[gerdm07]

Man, I hoped that too. And I am totally in Camp Ralf. But todays performance had all of the Ole ingredients - not creating much, being relatively solid defensively (not talking about the late days of Ole time), keeping non-performers on for 90 minutes only to throw the sink at them at some point. Granted - we were in control for most parts today. And we were for big parts in the last matches as well. I see that. But we are also as dull as it gets... It is exactly the same as under Ole. I am not slagging off Ralf for it, he is here only for a couple of weeks but I hoped to not see certain things again and today I did. Where is the difference in leaving Ronaldo and Bruno on when they don't give you anything for 90minutes compared to leaving Rashford on? How is it a better plan now to just increase the number of strikers to increase pressure. You think McTominay would have been able to defend one real counter more or less on his own had it happend after we took off Fred?

Bruno was playing deeper after Cavani came on. McT was not that isolated.

 

[Bilbo]

Thanks for stating that. I agree. I want to make it clear, I have no intentions to make any player or manager look bad. I just want to be as neutral as it gets to have a clear picture. I read many posts and my earlier posts were too one-sided as some improvements are easy to be seen (more workrate from the wingers, Bruno more involved in midfield, more organized in defense, less individual errors). Yesterdays match was against tough opposition so probably I am a little harsh to expect more than what got delivered but 3 shots on target isn't great. One of them being a tapin from 2 metres and another one being Fred who stumbled more or less over the ball to somehow keep it, that tells a story about us not being able to translate our "control" to anything to capitalize on.

The shape was better, the effort was there. We were winning a better % of second balls. We kept a dangerous side at arms length for good spells of the match. Good use of subs. Those are positives.

The negatives? We still don't look like we know how to put the round thing in the net. That's understandable given the circumstances of the last few months, but it's still a real concern.

The positives of this match far outweigh the negatives, and I'm confident that Ralf will be able to make progress in time, but the difference in opinion will come when posters try to argue that this is better than anything we've seen in the last 3 seasons, when really it's just an improvement on what we've seen in the last few weeks. Credit to Ralf and the players for that, but as you say we've predominantly gone full circle and reverted back to the same methods as our previous manager, and I'm fine with that if that's what works for this squad.

 

[Belisarius]

Thanks for stating that. I agree. I want to make it clear, I have no intentions to make any player or manager look bad. I just want to be as neutral as it gets to have a clear picture. I read many posts and my earlier posts were too one-sided as some improvements are easy to be seen (more workrate from the wingers, Bruno more involved in midfield, more organized in defense, less individual errors). Yesterdays match was against tough opposition so probably I am a little harsh to expect more than what got delivered but 3 shots on target isn't great. One of them being a tapin from 2 metres and another one being Fred who stumbled more or less over the ball to somehow keep it, that tells a story about us not being able to translate our "control" to anything to capitalize on.

I find it really encouraging that we scored a tap in goal and that Greenwood scored another the previous game. Prior to that, I can't remember the last time we scored that way. (although admittedly my memory is not what it used to be). Goals like that are the bread and butter of quality sides.

While we may only have had 3 shots. We had more chances. There weren't a lot, but enough that you would expect a goal. Off the top of my head:

- Bruno played in Greenwood and he could have had an open shot if he had carried on and taken with his right foot, instead he tried to cut back onto his left and the shot was blocked.
- Elanga had the volley that went just wide on the cut back cross from Dalot.
- Ronaldo had the header he just couldn't get to on the cross from the left from Bruno.
- Ronaldo got pushed over in the box by Zouma with the ball coming into his head.
- Fred had the clear shot you mentioned above.
- Varane had the open header off a corner that he sent just wide.
- Martial had a clear shot from the high slot that he mishit and toe poked wide.
- Rashford on the tap-in goal.

 

[Red Dreams]

Mate of mine said there was fighting in the ground.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Mate of mine said there was fighting in the ground.

Whose fans? Ours, theirs or us against them?

 

[lex talionis]

The suggestion that we’ve been just as woeful under Ralf as we were under Ole is daft. Under Ole we were conceding a ridiculous number of goals. We’ve cleaned that up fairly well, but what we have not yet improved enough is our chance creation.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The suggestion that we’ve been just as woeful under Ralf as we were under Ole is daft. Under Ole we were conceding a ridiculous number of goals. We’ve cleaned that up fairly well, but what we have not yet improved enough is our chance creation.

Think we had the talent at the back to defend but were just completely disorganised. Problem we have is the midfield has no creativity. We might have to sign somebody to change that.

 

[Red Dreams]

Whose fans? Ours, theirs or us against them?

don't know .
He sent me an email.

 

[Red Dreams]

This one thing stuck out for me.
When Greenwood moved the ball to his favoured foot before taking a shot and missed his chance.
I cannot tolerate a professional footballer having to do this.

Take the bloody shot as it comes.

 

[Hammondo]

Ok, you are right. I agree, there is more effort to be seen in the players. And less tendency for brainfarts. Thats an improvement.
I didn't see anything I would call pressing though. We were engaging Westham enthusiasticly but we did that under Ole too from time to time.

Remember I am not an Ole-apologist, I just think it isn't very fair to criticize things on one occasion and ignoring it on the other.

But alright, I agree, there were a few improvements to be seen and we did play well in some aspects. Calling it dominant or controlling feels dangerous to me. Football is about creating chances to score for your team and deny the opposition such chances. Our "control" covered only the second aspect. So while it obviously sounds great to be in control, what is its value?


Bruno plays more for the team. He should have done so under Ole as well. So alright, thats an improvement. But it isn't really a masterstroke is it?

Higher line? Not so sure about it. Didn't look like it to me at least. Certainly not as much as one could attest a big change.

Shape in Defense - you are right. That is better. Also the brainfarts are gone to some extent. That is a good thing. But this defensive stability is bought at a high price, because especially yesterday, we didn't create anything of note for more or less 90 minutes. That is one of the places where Ole had us at some point in is reign too. And like with Ole I hope, Ralf can take that stability and built up from it. Until now, there are no signs of it though.

We are not depending on moments of brilliance? Well ^^ what are we depending on right now? I am curious? Have you seen attacking moves reoccuring? I understand your point - with Ole it was an issue because for 3 years it was like that - but I think it is pretty bolt to state that this is any different under Ralf now.

Fred and McTom did well under Ole as well. Granted, it is some time ago, but Fred was awesome I think the season before the last one. Short memories I guess and I understand, you would like to see stuff to feel secure about Ralf. I don't want to take that away, I am onboard his train. But some warning lights start to emerge. If they don't for you, consider yourself a lucky duck.


Wow.... So I laying out my reasoning with explanations and examples is lazy in comparison to your 3 and 4 liners. Gotcha.

If we played 4-3-3 yesterday, we played 4-3-3 under Ole as well. Just look at the average positioning, unfortunately I can't show it to you as I don't find it at the sofa score web app. On the android app, there is a feature and it shows exactly what a 4-2-3-1 looks like. Granted, we had little more symetry, better use of space but to calling it a formation change seems wildly optimistic. If anything, we are executing the 4-2-3-1 now somewhat how it is majorly intended.

But alright - I got your point, you want to see improvements, you saw improvements. Lets end it on a positive note. Me not being able to see all of these improvements to the same extent is my problem.

Bruno almost played as a 2nd striker under Ole, he would often be nowhere near the midfield.

 

[mitchmouse]

The only way to fix that issue is through creativity. Mcfred offer very little in the regard as neither of them have the ability to consistently, quickly see and make the killer pass.

Still think Scot could be a holding midfielder with more quality around him, do the job Nicky Butt did for years

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

Yesterday and Brentford feels significant. I’m still buzzing. Love Ralf and loved the effort from the boys yesterday. This is going to work.

 

[Blood Mage]

I love this account. Reminds me of those old Jimmy Liddel Liverpool commentaries.

 

[devips]

Southampton played with 10 men all game and had two sent off.

That explains the winning margin, but is largely irrelevant for evaluating our team's playing style, energy and skillful interplay on that day.

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

I love this account. Reminds me of those old Jimmy Liddel Liverpool commentaries.

I've seen quite a few of these vids posted on redcafe but I've yet to find an explanation as to why the creator of these vids uses a bizarre robotic voice as opposed to a normal human voice.

 

[Ixion]

That explains the winning margin, but is largely irrelevant for evaluating our team's playing style, energy and skillful interplay on that day.

It's a lot easier to have energy when you're playing against 10 men for the entire game and show skillful interplay when you have the space against 10 men and eventually 9.

 

[calodo2003]

I've seen quite a few of these vids posted on redcafe but I've yet to find an explanation as to why the creator of these vids uses a bizarre robotic voice as opposed to a normal human voice.

Just adds to the comedic absurdity, I guess.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

don't know .
He sent me an email.

Who? Ralf? Say goodbye to your family life then.

 

[Wheato]

xG is the killer of football with VAR being close second. Stop looking at stats and enjoy the bloody game. We played well, controlled most off the game but we need to be a bit better in the final third. xG can Feck off that winner was great, first time in a long time the house came down and erupted and it felt just a bit special to be honest. Tough game against a team that was above us in the table and we needed that. Rashford was great to see coming on again, Dalot and Elanga both very solid and the defense played really well. It was a hard fought and well deserved victory.

Anyone who says xG in a conversation about a football match, should be kicked to within an inch of their lives, then burned face first.

 

[Red Dreams]

Who? Ralf? Say goodbye to your family life then.

 

[Resch]

Good control of the game, but Ronaldo and Fred are a problem.
Fred is working like a horse, but he is kicking the ball like a horse too.
Ronaldo is just not that No.9 we need. He will score as long all the players work for him. But he is no team player, he does not work within a team. Carvani would be the better option.

 

[wolvored]

We are getting the tactics slowly but surely and limiting West Ham to one shot on target, which de gea saved comfortably was also a plus. The downside is the great big hole in midfield. When Bowen just skipped through it makes you wonder why we aint getting anyone in, in Jan. Unless as I said on another thread perhaps the funding is being held for the permanent manager in the summer, it could make the difference between 4th or lower.

 

[NK86]

Ok, you are right. I agree, there is more effort to be seen in the players. And less tendency for brainfarts. Thats an improvement.
I didn't see anything I would call pressing though. We were engaging Westham enthusiasticly but we did that under Ole too from time to time.

Remember I am not an Ole-apologist, I just think it isn't very fair to criticize things on one occasion and ignoring it on the other.

But alright, I agree, there were a few improvements to be seen and we did play well in some aspects. Calling it dominant or controlling feels dangerous to me. Football is about creating chances to score for your team and deny the opposition such chances. Our "control" covered only the second aspect. So while it obviously sounds great to be in control, what is its value?


Bruno plays more for the team. He should have done so under Ole as well. So alright, thats an improvement. But it isn't really a masterstroke is it?

Higher line? Not so sure about it. Didn't look like it to me at least. Certainly not as much as one could attest a big change.

Shape in Defense - you are right. That is better. Also the brainfarts are gone to some extent. That is a good thing. But this defensive stability is bought at a high price, because especially yesterday, we didn't create anything of note for more or less 90 minutes. That is one of the places where Ole had us at some point in is reign too. And like with Ole I hope, Ralf can take that stability and built up from it. Until now, there are no signs of it though.

We are not depending on moments of brilliance? Well ^^ what are we depending on right now? I am curious? Have you seen attacking moves reoccuring? I understand your point - with Ole it was an issue because for 3 years it was like that - but I think it is pretty bolt to state that this is any different under Ralf now.

Fred and McTom did well under Ole as well. Granted, it is some time ago, but Fred was awesome I think the season before the last one. Short memories I guess and I understand, you would like to see stuff to feel secure about Ralf. I don't want to take that away, I am onboard his train. But some warning lights start to emerge. If they don't for you, consider yourself a lucky duck.


Wow.... So I laying out my reasoning with explanations and examples is lazy in comparison to your 3 and 4 liners. Gotcha.

If we played 4-3-3 yesterday, we played 4-3-3 under Ole as well. Just look at the average positioning, unfortunately I can't show it to you as I don't find it at the sofa score web app. On the android app, there is a feature and it shows exactly what a 4-2-3-1 looks like. Granted, we had little more symetry, better use of space but to calling it a formation change seems wildly optimistic. If anything, we are executing the 4-2-3-1 now somewhat how it is majorly intended.

But alright - I got your point, you want to see improvements, you saw improvements. Lets end it on a positive note. Me not being able to see all of these improvements to the same extent is my problem.

How can you say that we were like this at any point under Ole. Even last season when we came second, we went behind more than half the time and never had control. We always were very slow out of the block and always struggled to play cohesive football for more than a half at a time. Again not saying that Rangnick has come in and immediately revamped us into prime Barca, but he has immediately understood the issues with 4-2-2-2 and moved away from it to 4-3-3. Ole basically always played 4-2-3-1 even when everyone could see it was not working.

As for why Bruno wasn't in this role - well isn't it obvious? Ole didn't want him like that even when everyone could see that we needed him to be dropping further back.

Fred also has a much different role now as he is moving up further. McT has actually improved his CM play and is now making himself available more often for passes and we are seeing some semblance of patterns.

I am afraid you are not seeing things which are quite clear. We have to keep improving but for the first time in 3 years I feel we have a manager who is also a smart coach and is actually making improvements when he makes a mistake.

 

[Pretzels81]

Dramatic three points for the 4th spot race (not Top3, but 4th spot).

Still 3 miles away (and a manager away) from title contenders. Still stuck in 2014-2021.

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

Just adds to the comedic absurdity, I guess.

Maybe but I just find it annoying.

 

[devips]

It's a lot easier to have energy when you're playing against 10 men for the entire game and show skillful interplay when you have the space against 10 men and eventually 9.

It was maybe easier, but as I stressed, that was neither here or there.

The point was RR did not invent the game, United knew how to play this sort of dominant attractive game. There are other instances of such play during Ole's time.

What we lacked is consistency. Hope RR takes care of this.

 

[Sea-Cow]

I held off on posting this because I know that the excitement of a last minute winner would have made me sound like a joyless bastard, BUT.....

Was anyone else slightly annoyed that the lads showed more energy and passion in celebrating the goal than they had for 90 minutes? The entire match they looked slightly hungover, and like they were forced at gunpoint to be out playing for Manchester fing United in front of 70K fans at Old Trafford. Then they score and finally, FINALLY show some attitude.

Despite loving the goal and the three points, that really annoyed me. In the second half I kept waiting for us to really amp up the pressure and start actually put their backup keeper under some pressure. And it never came. It looked guaranteed to be a wet fart of a match up until that horrible header from their right back put us on our way.

 

[freddie the red]

I love this account. Reminds me of those old Jimmy Liddel Liverpool commentaries.

Bentekesaurus!!!!

I am NOT having that!!

 

[justsomebloke]

Must be me, but I didn’t see and haven’t seen any improvement on what OGS was delivering. Home game, 90 minutes of insipid uninspiring football with a winning goal in the last play of the game. Great to get the three points but seriously this team is underwhelming.

That it is underwhelming is clear, but it isn't suddenly going to just transform into a machine, is it.

I've thought many times over the past few weeks that it still looks a lot like the drabber versions of Ole United, but I didn't think that against West Ham. They were compact, well-organised and dominated and controlled the game. Really didn't create much attacking output, but hey, first things first.