[arthurka]

Still baffled by this game.
Ralf inherit a group that is unbalanced and lacking any decent grafting and gut.
Ronaldo needs to be benched but who comes in? Lingard?

 

[AltiUn]

Attacking handball was my own term. Accidental handball can only happen to the attacking team. .

"Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

Does this sound to you like something that applies to the defending or the attacking team?

Yes and I'm aware of this rule change, which is why if the ref thought it was accidental it counts.

And no the rules aren't overly complex, they've just been recently changed and they're fecking shite.

I've read it and you look really silly by leaving out the part of unnatural (and again, my own phrasing here hand/arm position).

"Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball • touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/ arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised • scores in the opponents’ goal: · directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper · immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental Explanation • Not every contact between the hand/arm and the ball is a handball offence. • Referees must judge the ‘validity’ of the hand/arm’s position in relation to what the player is doing in that particular situation. • Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

The bloke's body wasn't necessarily in an unnatural position for a player in his exact situation. He's just super incompetent with hitting his own arm. Which should be handball but according to the rules, if it's accidental, it's not.

That's good and well but it very clearly wasn't accidental as he moved his fecking arm to the ball to control it

 

[Betson]

You do remember Jermaine Beckford knocking us out of the FA Cup with Leeds in 2010 right ?

I remember a lot of shock cup defeats , but I don't ever remember calling them progression and just happy we put in a performance of sorts.

 

[TwoSheds]

It's not the ref, it's the rules that are a sham.

I can't agree with this. If you swing your arm towards the ball and control it into your path to shoot, there's no way I'm calling that accidental if I'm the ref, regardless of how stupid the rules are.

But regardless, I thought we played quite well on the whole, good to see Sancho get a goal and well played Boro for making a fight of it and taking some great pens. Ronaldo was very bad though, we can't be missing chances like that week after week.

 

[matt10000]

We exaggerate a lot on here but the handball decision was corrupt.

Battered them but couldn't score - sad we're out but it was actually a very good performance albeit against a weaker team

I sometimes think that decisions are made to make it more exciting for the neutral but it just annoys people when a clear injustice is done.

If that goal had been at the other end of the pitch at 1-0 would it have been given to make it 2-0 and effectively kill off the game?

They wanted to give it because it pushes the brand of the FA Cup and giant killings etc….and they dont come bigger than Utd at OT

 

[Oranges038]

Attacking handball was my own term. Accidental handball can only happen to the attacking team. .

"Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

Does this sound to you like something that applies to the defending or the attacking team?

Yes and I'm aware of this rule change, which is why if the ref thought it was accidental it counts.

And no the rules aren't overly complex, they've just been recently changed and they're fecking shite.

I've read it and you look really silly by leaving out the part of unnatural (and again, my own phrasing here hand/arm position).

"Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball • touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/ arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised • scores in the opponents’ goal: · directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper · immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental Explanation • Not every contact between the hand/arm and the ball is a handball offence. • Referees must judge the ‘validity’ of the hand/arm’s position in relation to what the player is doing in that particular situation. • Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

The bloke's body wasn't necessarily in an unnatural position for a player in his exact situation. He's just super incompetent with hitting his own arm. Which should be handball but according to the rules, if it's accidental, it's not.

It's like the offside rule.

They just made it way too complicated for it's own good.

 

[Heinzesight]

My understanding is an ‘accidental handball’ is something like the defender smashing the ball in to the attackers arm.

‘Accidental handball’ is not having a wank first touch and playing a one-two with your arm. It’s the wrong decision even with this changing of the rule.

 

[Maticmaker]

Middlesbrough had the 'cup luck' ...a 'hand assisted' goal, and United strikers unable to find the net despite umpteen chances.
That's it... are Middlesbrough a decent bet for good cup run this year with that sort of luck? Last time I saw a team have that much luck in the cup against us at OT was when Harry's Portsmouth beat us 0-1 in I think 2009? They went on to win it!!

I was impressed with Pogba's contribution for once he really looked like he was up for it, he tired towards the end given he had so much time away. Playing for his contract no doubt, or to put himself in the shop window, he even turned up with a decent haircut... he must be serious!

Don't think we played badly, but squandered chance after chance, Middlesbrough were bolstered by our inability to put them away and hung on like grim death, then with one final effort they were over the line... some smart penalty takers Wilder has there!

 

[laughtersassassin]

That goal standing is an absolute joke

 

[POF]

Accidental handball can only happen to the attacking team.

Why's that?

 

[L1nk]

Sums it up well for me

 

[sparx99]

Sums it up well for me

It does sun it up well but we are in this weird place right now. People want to see us playing better but we’ve left ourselves with so much to do that results are also vital. I’m gutted about the cup because it was our best chance of a trophy but considering how short we’ve left ourselves with the squad it might be a good thing in terms of making top 4. We are probably going out to Atletico and so one game a week for March to May in all likelyhood.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Sums it up well for me

Fans are frustrated with their team and perhaps their personal lifes and try to filter it out through a football forum, I get it but in reality we played some neat football and unfortunately one of those games when things didn't go our way cost us.

Now let's bench Ronaldo and McTominay because they are clearly hindering our progress and move on from here. We got lots of things to do to implement new tactics and structure of play, try things out and make it ready for the next manager..

 

[Offside]

When was the last time we lost a game at Old Trafford when winning at half time?

 

[Giggsy13]

I could care less about VAR, this game was lost on Ronaldo, Rashford and Bruno for fecking up chance after chance. Great fecking transfer window, Sancho likely out for weeks and our thin squad is going to be put the test. The club is a fecking laughing stock.

 

[POF]

Because the rules say:

Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

So the defending team can't accidentally handle the ball?

"Accidental handball" leading to a goal (except by the scorer himself) was removed as an offence because it was only an offence when a goal was scored.

"Accidental handball" by any other player that doesn't lead to a goal is not and never was handball.

If Watmore had done exactly what he did in his own half, do you think that was handball? If so, do you genuinely think the rules say that it wasn't handball because he created a goal?

 

[MiracleInMadrid]

The worrying thing about this match was, that it was probably our three most prolific players of our regular starters who missed the biggest chances. Rashford, Ronaldo and Bruno.

Had it been a out of form Lingard, Elanga and Sancho, I at least could have told myself that we would have won comfortably if our more experienced goalscorers had been on the field.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Thought we played well in the first half. Our passing was the best it has been for ages. Looked really sharp, to be honest.

But at the end of the day, our finishing was abysmal. Obviously the missed pen, but Bruno's miss was even worse. How he managed to feck that up I don't know. I'm tempted to say there was some complacency going on because it was such an easy chance. Maybe a bit too casual. Whatever it was, it wasn't good.

I think for the first 15 mins or so of the second half we carried on our good form, but then even before they scored you could sense them getting into the game. Obviously, the goal was an absolute farce. It literally makes zero sense to me how that can be awarded.

Anyway, ultimately it means another year without a trophy. The club's going backwards

 

[VanDeBank]

So the defending team can't accidentally handle the ball?

"Accidental handball" leading to a goal (except by the scorer himself) was removed as an offence because it was only an offence when a goal was scored.

"Accidental handball" by any other player that doesn't lead to a goal is not and never was handball.

If Watmore had done exactly what he did in his own half, do you think that was handball? If so, do you genuinely think the rules say that it wasn't handball because he created a goal?

The rules state: Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

Meaning last night, the ref has to make an assessment whether or not it's accidental and allow the goal if he thinks it was.

The defending team can accidentally hand the ball but obviously the rule about making your body unnaturally bigger typically will have different implications for what is penalized for the defending or attacking team. If your dribbling you move your body differentally than trying to block a shot ,etc.

" "Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball • touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/ arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised • "

There's no line about accidental in the above paragraph, only "deliberate", which the ref has to assess when such a situation occurs. Anyway, the rules are perfectly clear. Shit, but clear.

That's good and well but it very clearly wasn't accidental as he moved his fecking arm to the ball to control it

Disagree. His arm was in a natural position. He's just a shit footballer that didn't control the ball properly and accidentally hit the ball into his arm. That's the assessment of the ref and the var. I'm sure there'll be match report released soon with other refs having looked at it.

I agree with assessment t hat he's a shit footballer that didn't purposefully move his arm toward the ball to control it, but again I don't think shit footballers should be rewarded for being shit.

 

[redmanx]

It's not the ref, it's the rules that are a sham.

I dont blame the ref orVAR for this, he alteration to the rule regarding hand ball is totally confusing both in structure and implementation; the suits who run the game havent got a clue, I dont think any of them have ever taken part in a real match.

 

[POF]

The rules state: Accidental handball by a team-mate before a goal is scored and accidental handball creating a goal-scoring opportunity have been removed as offences."

Meaning last night, the ref has to make an assessment whether or not it's accidental and allow the goal if he thinks it was.

The defending team can accidentally hand the ball but obviously the rule about making your body unnaturally bigger typically will have different implications for what is penalized for the defending or attacking team. If your dribbling you move your body differentally than trying to block a shot ,etc.

" "Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball • touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/ arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised • "

There's no line about accidental in the above paragraph, only "deliberate", which the ref has to assess when such a situation occurs. Anyway, the rules are perfectly clear. Shit, but clear.



Disagree. His arm was in a natural position. He's just a shit footballer that didn't control the ball properly and accidentally hit the ball into his arm. That's the assessment of the ref and the var. I'm sure there'll be match report released soon with other refs having looked at it.

I agree with assessment t hat he's a shit footballer that didn't purposefully move his arm toward the ball to control it, but again I don't think shit footballers should be rewarded for being shit.

Just humour me. If Watmore did exactly what he did to control the ball in his own half, would that have been handball?

 

[Silverman]

Sums it up well for me

True. Poor result but the performance leaves us with a lot of positives.
Win on Tuesday against Burnley and we'll be in a good position to kick on.

 

[simplyared]

Not too disappointed. Thought we played some of our best football we've done for quite some time. We can build on this definately!

 

[Giggsy13]

There’s a lot of moaning over the handball when there should be moaning over Ronaldo, Bruno and Rashford. They were the reasons we lost this not the damn handball.

 

[redmanx]

Middlesbrough had the 'cup luck' ...a 'hand assisted' goal, and United strikers unable to find the net despite umpteen chances.
That's it... are Middlesbrough a decent bet for good cup run this year with that sort of luck? Last time I saw a team have that much luck in the cup against us at OT was when Harry's Portsmouth beat us 0-1 in I think 2009? They went on to win it!!

I was impressed with Pogba's contribution for once he really looked like he was up for it, he tired towards the end given he had so much time away. Playing for his contract no doubt, or to put himself in the shop window, he even turned up with a decent haircut... he must be serious!

Don't think we played badly, but squandered chance after chance, Middlesbrough were bolstered by our inability to put them away and hung on like grim death, then with one final effort they were over the line... some smart penalty takers Wilder has there!

I agree, for an hour we looked the real deal but couldnt put the match to bed; one more goal would have finished 'Boro. We played well, lots of one touch passing, quick thinking, runs into the box and the defence looked pretty reliable. The missed chances were something that happens but I was sure the second goal would come. Rashford had a good game, though at times he shot when he should have passed; Sancho was good, very busy and always a threat; McTominay was solid and made some great runs; Bruno in that first hour or so was everywhere and showed his class; Pogba; despite my reservations about his attitude and committment, he has the skill to be a truly brilliant player and we saw glimpses of this; he was much more careful with his use of the ball, and made a few great runs, had real desire and generally showed what could be; can Rangnick get more and even better performances from him on a more consistent basis? I wont hold my breath, but if Pogba can perform to this sort of level consistently and throw in a few really top class performances he might yet become the player we all thought we had signed. But with Pogba its all about "if."

 

[VanDeBank]

So the defending team can't accidentally handle the ball?

"Accidental handball" leading to a goal (except by the scorer himself) was removed as an offence because it was only an offence when a goal was scored.

"Accidental handball" by any other player that doesn't lead to a goal is not and never was handball.

If Watmore had done exactly what he did in his own half, do you think that was handball? If so, do you genuinely think the rules say that it wasn't handball because he created a goal?

Accidental handball has "handball" in the name. The rules say accidental handball isn't an offence when certain conditions are met. What's so hard to understand?

You're arguing with yourself over semantics not related to the situation.

Just humour me. If Watmore did exactly what he did to control the ball in his own half, would that have been handball?

What Watmore did last night was also handball, which the ref has to assess as accidental (or deliberate), and which isn't considered an offence because certain conditions were met, hence the goal is allowed.

Read the paragraph, it's clear as day. Maybe this one is easier to comprehend:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759#:~:text=If an attacking player's accidental,handball immediately before scoring himself.

If you can't comprehend the rules, I don't think I can help you. Sorry.

 

[redmanx]

Not too disappointed. Thought we played some of our best football we've done for quite some time. We can build on this definately!

I think so too; Ronaldo and Bruno missed some golden opportunities but that doesnt happen often. Sancho was very good, Rashford more like his old self, McTominay solid and dependable, Shaw and Dalot provided great support on the flanks, Maguire and Varane looked solid. Pogba played well too and if Rangnick can get him playing like this more consistently he might yet come good for us.

 

[POF]

Accidental handball has "handball" in the name. The rules say accidental handball isn't an offence when certain conditions are met. What's so hard to understand?

You're arguing with yourself over semantics not related to the situation.

What Watmore did last night was also handball, which the ref has to assess as accidental (or deliberate), and which isn't considered an offence because certain conditions were met, hence the goal is allowed.

Read the paragraph, it's clear as day. Maybe this one is easier to comprehend:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759#:~:text=If an attacking player's accidental,handball immediately before scoring himself.

If you can't comprehend the rules, I don't think I can help you. Sorry.

So you're saying (completely seriously) that Watmore committed a handball offence but, within the rules, it wasn't a foul because it resulted in him setting up a goal?

Maybe go and have a little think if it really is as clear as you think.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Just looking at the highlights there. Its like a monty python sketch of missing chances. The game should have been over by half time.

 

[VanDeBank]

So you're saying (completely seriously) that Watmore committed a handball offence but, within the rules, it wasn't a foul because it resulted in him setting up a goal?

Maybe go and have a little think if it really is as clear as you think.

No it's not a handball offence, because the handball was accidental and was committed in the build up to the goal. Like I said the ref has to judge deliberate/accidental and when certain criteria are met it's not an offence. Do you want me to repost the rules for the umpteenth time?

And no smartass, it's not how I think the game should be, but those are rules as they exist.
This distinction really isn't hard to understand, I shouldn't have to preface every single one of my posts with this because you have a short memory.

We're going in circles. Best to agree to disagree you don't (want to) understand the rules. Bye.

 

[POF]

No it's not a handball offence, because the handball was accidental and was committed in the build up to the goal. Like I said the ref has to judge deliberate/accidental and when certain criteria are met it's not an offence. Do you want me to repost the rules for the umpteenth time?

And no smartass, it's not how I think the game should be, but those are rules as they exist.
This distinction really isn't hard to understand, I shouldn't have to preface every single one of my posts with this because you have a short memory.

We're going in circles. Best to agree to disagree you don't (want to) understand the rules. Bye.

You've misunderstood the rules. I explained the origin of the "accidental handball" and why that clarification was only required for when a goal was scored.

I honestly cannot believe that anyone genuinely thinks that what would be given as handball anywhere else on the pitch is not an offence if his team scores a goal as a result.

But not if the player himself scores. Just if he sets up someone else to score. Bloody hell. Words fail me.

 

[sunama]

What's shocking is that some fans think that we did pretty well last night.
We just got dumped out of an FA Cup, by a Championship side who in 6th-7th place, at Old Trafford.
The wages we pay our players dwarf that paid by Middlesbrough.
There honestly isn't any excuse for what happened last night.
One thing that all of us need to accept is that yesterday's overall performance was pitiful. Had we played for another 90 minutes, I still don't think we would have scored.

I can't believe we got beat last night. If I had not seen it myself, I would not believe it.

 

[sunama]

There’s a lot of moaning over the handball when there should be moaning over Ronaldo, Bruno and Rashford. They were the reasons we lost this not the damn handball.

EXACTLY!!!
We should've pumped Middlesbrough so hard that even if they scored 3 dodgy goals, we'd still win..

 

[sparx99]

When was the last time we lost a game at Old Trafford when winning at half time?

It’s a draw technically so doesn’t count as a loss in that way.

 

[sparx99]

What's shocking is that some fans think that we did pretty well last night.
We just got dumped out of an FA Cup, by a Championship side who in 6th-7th place, at Old Trafford.
The wages we pay our players dwarf that paid by Middlesbrough.
There honestly isn't any excuse for what happened last night.
One thing that all of us need to accept is that yesterday's overall performance was pitiful. Had we played for another 90 minutes, I still don't think we would have scored.

I can't believe we got beat last night. If I had not seen it myself, I would not believe it.

‘Giant killings’ happen every year. I just don’t think we’re in a headspace to take one this year. When they’ve happened to us before it’s been ok cos we’re in a title race or league cup final or something. We are a top side who had a bad day.

The problem with this team is that it wasn’t a huge shock. Lots is posters felt we might get knocked out before a ball was kicked. Once they equalised it seemed a majority fet we’d go on to lose. That’s truly concerning.

 

[BluesJr]

What's shocking is that some fans think that we did pretty well last night.
We just got dumped out of an FA Cup, by a Championship side who in 6th-7th place, at Old Trafford.
The wages we pay our players dwarf that paid by Middlesbrough.
There honestly isn't any excuse for what happened last night.
One thing that all of us need to accept is that yesterday's overall performance was pitiful. Had we played for another 90 minutes, I still don't think we would have scored.

I can't believe we got beat last night. If I had not seen it myself, I would not believe it.

You clearly didn’t watch the game. Either that or you’re just trolling.

 

[gerdm07]

I just had a chance to watch the highlights and I can't believe we missed so many chances and that their goal was allowed. If the ball does not touch his hand the player would have to wait a split second longer to shoot or cross and in that split second Varane would have had a chance to block. Pretty clear to me.

Usually when you lose a match like that you shrug it off and know that it happens sometimes. However, this team just doesn't know how to score anymore and it's become a mental problem. It will change and I hope it is soon.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

I was shouted at shaw for not doing this when on the game last night. Constantly leaving Sancho 2v1/3v1, he's such a lazy fecker Shaw. Just when Sancho was gaining momentum after scoring and looking dangerous.

Loved Sancho yesterday! I hope he's not hurt, we are screwed if so.

Shaw sure seems to be reverting to his lazy ways. It kills me. I want Telles starting whenever he can.

 

[TheRedHearted]

hands down our best game in terms of chances made and everything since Ralf arrived. What’s sad is we end up losing and can’t fully take away the positives. What a pure shame

 

[Giggsy13]

hands down our best game in terms of chances made and everything since Ralf arrived. What’s sad is we end up losing and can’t fully take away the positives. What a pure shame

That should be the standard performance against teams well below us. Hopefully we can maintain that level but with our thin squad and limited options in midfield, it will be a challenge.