We were fecking dreadful against Sheffield United, West Brom, Crystal Palace and Arsenal. I wouldn’t say we were much better against Chelsea either. We were good against Everton and Southampton. I’d call that the majority. That wasn’t even a tough run of fixtures.
Our Progress
- Thread starter acnumber9
- Start date
Rashford and Cavani missed some absolute sitters v Arsenal and Chelsea was a typical game against Chelsea - tight and cagey. I'd argue that those 0-0s in those big games say just as much about the opposition as they say about us.
I understand we’ve rode our luck somewhat at points and If we don’t add to the squad we will probably revert back to the mean. I still really don’t get how people aren’t saying we’ve progressed though. Stripping away most excess layers in the squad while still climbing up the table. Fringe players like mata and matic are ready to be given their p45 and that makes room for at least two quality players and a centre back. Same deal with Cavani at the end of next season. We will definitely improve again if Ole gets the backing.
I think too many utd fans have ptsd over the last few years and can’t appreciate the journey or the process for what it is. The best way to build is by adding 2/3 players a year max to your first team, unfortunately that’s set quite a slow pace if you're given the squad ole took over and what he’s up against at city. If you guys thought a window with VDB amad and Cavani was enough to close the gap you haven’t been watching closely enough while city steamed on ahead of us in pretty much every metric over the last few years. It’s going to take a lot of slow careful planning to catch up enough to lay a glove on them. You can’t expect to outspend them. It’s unprecedented. We can’t buy 4 full backs and bin off the ones that don’t work. We need to be considered and measured. What we spend on one transfer effects how much we can spend on the next. People in here crying about ole this and that when he has had a far far harder job to get us to second than pep did to win with that squad. Next year will be harder but we’ve made good progress.
Last edited:
But that further feeds the point. Some teams below us have been absolutely dreadful. Being ever so slightly better than some bad teams doesn’t tell us a lot about where we’re going.
Logical fallacy bonanza in your first paragraph there. No, it doesn't mean that every other manager is destined to fail. But it does mean that you don't have a basis for assuming another manager would succeed, just because he has in the past. "There’s plenty of basis for doubting whether Ole can get us back to the top." Well, the only basis you've presented so far is writing "there’s plenty of basis for doubting whether Ole can get us back to the top." Secondly, you're applying standards you're not applying to the alternatives. Certainly it's uncertain if Ole can get us back to the top. But it would also be uncertain if it was Nagelsmann or Tuchel or Pocchetino. You don't know, I don't know, nobody knows what OGS' ceiling as a manager is. The only thing we have to go on is results and how things are shaping up. None of which indicates that he has reached that ceiling yet.
So that leaves the question on what basis you can really argue that we'd have done better, or will do better, with another manager? As far as I can see, you don't have one. Of course, it's possible to have a strong opinion anyway. But is it smart?
We ARE much closer to a title challenge now than we were in December 2018. Hugely closer. And anyone who thought 6 months before that we were remotely close to a title challenge were brutally proven wrong by the ensuing months.
I for one would never have expected in December 2018 that we'd be this close to a title challenge now. I assumed then we needed a bigger demolition job and more time, and would have to soak up more suffering. If on the other hand someone had asked me in 12/18 how I would feel about finishing 3rd and 2nd the next two seasons, I'd have been thrilled. Not because I'm happy with top 4, but because I want a proper contender built, and accept that takes time.
"Is this good though?", you ask. And answer "not really". Why? Your answer to that really boils down to one thing: Because you'd have liked things to be better. They're ok, but they're not really good enough for you. Only slightly improved from last season. Bla bla outside factors, don't mean anything because who knows when we're back to normal. Some things are good, but that just means the results should have been even better. Meh, meh, meh.
Which, I'm sorry to say, is just arbitrary. You come across as someone who's just made his mind up that things aren't that good, or, where it cannot be denied that they are sort of good, should have been even better, and who simply isn't going to be pleased.
Your last point is just arguing against an absurd strawman. I really don't know why you imagine anyone would believe that further progress is guaranteed. So that's one gapingly open door kicked in.
Last edited:
But you're ignoring that these teams all had an advantage over Utd going in to the season. They had as close to a full preseason as you can get, and they arguably had better transfer windows than us too. We're only slightly better placed than them now because a) the FA and PL screwed us with only 3 weeks between the seasons, and b) the PL screwed us again by scheduling the league so that we had 4 games in 7 days and we are now feeling the effects of that. Add in the fact that we've played 2 games per week almost every week in a schedule that is far worse than any other team (bar City) and you can see that there are plenty areas of mitigation. The players and staff have made a monumental effort to get us to where we are considering everything that has gone on. They haven't had a chance to coach or be coached, and with the condensed nature of the league, a lot of the staff haven't even gone back home between games. Such as when we came back from Istanbul early hours on Thursday and had to play against Everton at midday on Saturday.
If, after all that hard work, they are feeling drained physically and mentally and aren't getting results in dead rubbers, then frankly I'll cut them that slack because speaking as a fan, watching us play as often as we have and the emotional rollercoasters we've been on in games this season, even I'm a little shattered.
Sorry, same bullshit as before. You're not operating with a reasonable measure of achievement. If we win, it's just because everyone else is shite and we're not good, just "ever so slightly better than some bad teams". Which to you is not good enough compared with the entirely meaningless benchmark of whatever suffices to make you feel happy when you watch the team play. That's no basis for an argument - it's a problem of psychology, not football.
It is clear that this group of players and coaching staff are not in the top teams in Europe. There is still too much sideways passing and not enough drive. We are poor starters and when it comes to corners at either end, we are hopeless. How many back post goals have we gifted this season. There is improvement over last year, but we won’t get near City unless we strengthen well this Summer. They can put out a second team in cup competitions and win them, the Caraboa Cup for one, whilst we have to play the stars like Bruno, Rashford, Maguire and they all looked knackered in April. We need grafters that want to play forward passes. This passing across the penalty area is a joke, we aren’t good enough to do that.
We were also closer to 10th than 5th at the point he took over.
Current standing this season as a whole is a fair reflection of where we are as far as progress is concerned. We can mix in near the top because we have some very good players but footballs’ a squad game and we don’t have one, which is why the champions are a few steps ahead. We can hold our own in Europe’s as we shown by beating PSG and could’ve won the return fixture and smashing Leipzig but are prone to inexplicable lapses, losing to Istanbul and letting Leipzig get 3 ahead in that crucial game. Also dropping points in the league to teams that range from bang average to absolutely dire.
I understand that the last few games have been fairly unimportant but Ole knows as good as anyone how important momentum is going into a final, one which is absolutely crucial for him and this squad. There should be zero complacency because this squad has achieved a grand total of nothing and he should be doing his best to keep the lads sharp and going into that final full throttle. The squad itself I believe is 3/4 top additions away from challenging but jury’s still out on the manager.
I understand that the last few games have been fairly unimportant but Ole knows as good as anyone how important momentum is going into a final, one which is absolutely crucial for him and this squad. There should be zero complacency because this squad has achieved a grand total of nothing and he should be doing his best to keep the lads sharp and going into that final full throttle. The squad itself I believe is 3/4 top additions away from challenging but jury’s still out on the manager.
The same logic applies to the assumption that a different manager wouldn’t do better. You were the one who brought up assumptions and our previous managers.
We’re closer to a title challenge now than December 2018 because our manager imploded looking a pay off. He was sacked with the expectation we would instantly improve otherwise he wouldn’t have been sacked.
I’ve no idea what shite you’re talking about in your fifth paragraph and won’t even respond.
Saying we’re improving at a good enough rate is no less arbitrary than saying we aren’t progressing enough. Meh, meh, meh.
Last edited:
On this, because I didn’t address it before. The exact same argument could’ve been made for sticking with either of our last two managers. Presumably you had no opinion on either of them. That wouldn’t be smart would it?
I’m not ignoring it anymore than saying 2nd is clear progress over third is ignoring the issues that Liverpool have had. Or having to sack a manager had on Chelsea and how we benefitted from those facts.
Seriously, go and bore somebody else with your opinions. We all follow football with an idea of what makes us happy as individuals. If you expect me to consider what you consider good enough then you’re an idiot. Your opinion doesn’t carry the weight you think it does. Bye.
So were Chelsea when Tuchel took over. It wasn’t an accurate representation of the team.
Again, you're missing the point. Those teams came in to the season with a clear advantage: Liverpool were objectively better than us, though their performances were trending downwards from way before VVD's injuries, and had been battered by Villa with him in the side. Meanwhile Chelsea finished level on points with that same manager in charge and then promptly had a blow out to push them further along.
I'm not sure why both teams underperforming is somehow to the detriment of the work the team has done. Both things can be true, and are true. We have no control over what they do, and can only influence the games we play. If there was basic or limited progress, we wouldn't be in the position we are now in.
And you’re missing the point that no pre season isn’t the only variable that has affected teams this season. Missing your most important player for most of the season is a bigger handicap.
The point being made is that we’re measuring progress by league finish. Had Liverpool or Chelsea not had those issues and we finished fourth as a result would we have made progress? Are we just carrying on the same level that was gained by signing Bruno? Because that’s where you can really chart improvement. We’ve added one of the best players in the league. Have results improved as much as they should have as a result? I’m not sure.
Last edited:
The progress is undeniable obviously... But somehow I still feel - and Im not sure how valid that is - that we are miles away from actually winning the League or being a Champiosn League contender..
Yes we get our points, yes we are more solid defensively, yes we have individual quality upfront and are more than in earlier years capable of getting our goalscorers in position.. But still.. There is nothing fluent in our play, it always looks like it costs us so much effort, it never seems to come easily...
Yes we get our points, yes we are more solid defensively, yes we have individual quality upfront and are more than in earlier years capable of getting our goalscorers in position.. But still.. There is nothing fluent in our play, it always looks like it costs us so much effort, it never seems to come easily...
think of the difference just Cavani. Bruno Maguire and AWB have made. A Few more players of that quality and we are set. We also wont ever be able to play great football consistently when we have to run the same players into the ground every few days. Our backups need to be potentially just as good as the starters and we are miles off in that respect. An extra midfielder winger and defender would make a huuuuge difference in the rotation if Ole would take a few more risks. Heavily over relying on injured and tired players is never going to match up when you’re up against an almost bombproof city squad.
Really?
Try Guardiola, Tuchel is getting there, Klopp always has and probably will again next season, Rodgers, Moyes, Bielsa, Dean Smith and Graham Potter, whilst the likes of Dyche, Hasenhuttl and Hodgson have in previous seasons/periods if not so much this season.
I genuinely cannot remember any period under Solskjaer when we’ve looked a better team than the sum of our individual parts. What key characteristic defines our style of play under the current manager and what is the hallmark of his United team? I’m genuinely curious as I cannot identify it myself.
Did I write that there is never any reason to think a manager should be removed? Of course there is. As long as you have a viable argument for why he should. Just because you don't, that doesn't mean others can't, in other cases.
Hahaha. No. You were saying "What isn’t so obvious is whether he has what it takes to actually get us competing at the top." Which is of course perfectly true. The point is that it's not obvious whether, say, Julian Nagelsmann would be able to take us to the top either. So, that isn't actually an argument against OGS as a manager.
And okay, so we're closer to a title challenge now than in December 2018. Glad to see you adjusted your view on that. I really don't know who expected instant improvement, but whoever they were, they were clearly of an unhealthily optimistic or demanding disposition. Also, they can't have paid much attention to the post-season narrative, which made it abundantly clear there was going to lengthy rebuild.
It's fine to argue we're not progressing enough, as long as you can make a coherent argument outlining why there are good reasons why we should have. You know, something better than "because he's been here for two and a half years". Or "I want x and I haven't been getting it".
Yeah well, I'm not asking to be taken on authority. I'm pointing out there's a difference between arguments and opinions. And that you have far too many of the latter, and far too few of the former.
When on the attack: Quick passing, risk taking, valuing progression over possession, attacking the space, having drills that situationally apply, allowing players to play to their strengths to the extent possible, being fit and positive so we can reliably grow into games.
On the defence: Valuing organization and trigger-pressing over ceaseless pressing because possession isn't everything, zonal marking, solidity down the center while relying more on individual defensive ability from the fullbacks.
Hallmarks: Comeback kings, always being ready for a deadly counterattack, 4-2-3-1 shape favored.
There is value in helping players actually play to their potential at an individual level and helping them understand what each of them can bring to the table, then fitting them into a balanced team and trusting them to try different ways to fit the jigsaw together. Morinho was adamant about his system and philosophy despite it giving Lingard center stage while leaving no room for players like Pogba and Rashford.
The players have bought into Solksjaer's management, and to me that's a strong sign things are heading in the right direction.
First 3 months was success until Paris and then bottled 4th place
First 5 months of 2020 season was shambolic until Bruno signed
Last few months of 2021 is pretty ordinary....Seems Ole need to get the entire season ticking rather having good periods here and there
If I am him,
I would clear all the current coaching staff and bring in top-class continental style coaching team
I would sign a CD/DM/RW/CF and then give it a go with full stream
First 5 months of 2020 season was shambolic until Bruno signed
Last few months of 2021 is pretty ordinary....Seems Ole need to get the entire season ticking rather having good periods here and there
If I am him,
I would clear all the current coaching staff and bring in top-class continental style coaching team
I would sign a CD/DM/RW/CF and then give it a go with full stream
For me we have made progress, however, will that progress continue I an unsure as I feel that our present coaching staff have very limited experiance to coach the team to the next level required to win the Champions League. I am sure that we will strengthen our first team squad, but I do think that Ole has to strengthen the present coaching staff.
We have had and continue to have problems in defending cross balls to our far post / penalty area from dead ball situations all season, with Leeds being the only team to have a worse record. We also have a poor record of converting goals from our corners and free kicks into the oppossitions 18 yard box. Both these problems have been evident since the start of the season and yet the problems do not appear to have been addressed as we come to the end. This surely must be a coaching problem, so the question must be asked whether or not our present coaching staff are up to the task of bringing in a system / drill(s) to improve our play in these situations.
The composition and recruitment of the coaching staff is down to Ole, he really needs in the close season to take a detailed look as to whether or not our present coaching staff are up to the task of taking the team to the next level.
We have had and continue to have problems in defending cross balls to our far post / penalty area from dead ball situations all season, with Leeds being the only team to have a worse record. We also have a poor record of converting goals from our corners and free kicks into the oppossitions 18 yard box. Both these problems have been evident since the start of the season and yet the problems do not appear to have been addressed as we come to the end. This surely must be a coaching problem, so the question must be asked whether or not our present coaching staff are up to the task of bringing in a system / drill(s) to improve our play in these situations.
The composition and recruitment of the coaching staff is down to Ole, he really needs in the close season to take a detailed look as to whether or not our present coaching staff are up to the task of taking the team to the next level.
You're also missing the point that having better players should be reflected in the number of chances you create and the number of chances you concede, so your xPTS will be higher to begin with.
As an example a league winner might have xPTS of 85 and finish on 90+ actual. A top 4 challenger might have xPTS of 65 and finish on 70+ actual. The point is not only are we miles off in actual terms, we're even further off when you take performances into account. Performances are heavily correlated with results, I'd much rather we be underperforming relative to xPts because it suggests the variance could swing in our favour with little more clinical finishing etc. but as it stands we need to massively improve our performance levels to get anywhere near a league title. A "routine win" for this team is incredibly rare, every game is a massive struggle.
I think he can but only if he is backed in the transfer market with a minimum of two major signings. If he isn't backed then I think we've pretty much peaked with this squad, maybe a few more points could have been picked up this season, but not a title winning amount of points.
We haven't made progress, I don't think there was any progress on pitches. We were regressed since the post lockdown in 2020 summer. We have gotten worse and conceded many goals to come back to win is not a good sign of progress, it tells you that Ole get his tactical wrong at the start often.
I agree. They've done well with what they have, I don't think there's a real potential to challenge without addressing at least some of the several areas that are rather obviously in need of an upgrade.
Exactly, everyone is saying what a good job Tuchel has done.
So apart from league position, what decides the "accurate" representation of the team?
Steady progress in my eyes. The league table doesn't lie and were second as we deserve second over the course of the season. I think Ole had a huge job on his hands with the pool of players he inherited which was infested with average players on ridiculous contracts with high wages which makes it a task to move them on. We've seen progress on that front with the likes of Sanchez, Rojo moved on and more will follow. We are never going to sign 7 players per window as somebody pointed out so its a steady process with 3/4 players signed to replace the average players. Where we're currently at is we still somewhat rely on the likes of Mata, Matic, Bailly, Martial, Lindelof, Fred, AWB and Mctominay for a lot of game time when they clearly need improving on.
Some are first team players playing week In week out, some are squad players offering rests to tired legs. Looking at the above list I think we l of identified three players to strengthen the right wing, deep midfield pivot and centre back, which hopefully means we can move Mata, Lingaard, Jones, Matic and possibly Bailly on. Which depending on the signings (although in my opinion) it won't take much will be big upgrades on those just mentioned.
Sancho (Mata, Lingaard) huge upgrade swaps two very bit part average squad players for a specialist first team right winger
Varane/Kounde means we don't have to rely on the erratic and injury prone Bailly , and we can somehow shift Jones.massive upgrade in quality.
Deep pivot, no names for this one some mention Rice others Camavinga , whoever it is will surely offer far more quality than Matic, and would ensure one of Fred/Mctominay can offer adequate backup at a decent quality.
I'd be happy with 3 string signings that'd ensure we take another step forward and ensures our squad looks a fair bit stringer and able to cope with a heavy schedule. Chuck in some of the youngsters coming through too, Shoretire, Hannible, Diallo, Garner
Some are first team players playing week In week out, some are squad players offering rests to tired legs. Looking at the above list I think we l of identified three players to strengthen the right wing, deep midfield pivot and centre back, which hopefully means we can move Mata, Lingaard, Jones, Matic and possibly Bailly on. Which depending on the signings (although in my opinion) it won't take much will be big upgrades on those just mentioned.
Sancho (Mata, Lingaard) huge upgrade swaps two very bit part average squad players for a specialist first team right winger
Varane/Kounde means we don't have to rely on the erratic and injury prone Bailly , and we can somehow shift Jones.massive upgrade in quality.
Deep pivot, no names for this one some mention Rice others Camavinga , whoever it is will surely offer far more quality than Matic, and would ensure one of Fred/Mctominay can offer adequate backup at a decent quality.
I'd be happy with 3 string signings that'd ensure we take another step forward and ensures our squad looks a fair bit stringer and able to cope with a heavy schedule. Chuck in some of the youngsters coming through too, Shoretire, Hannible, Diallo, Garner
We missed Pogba for most of last season, finished 3rd. Missing VVD doesnt explain away Mane, Thiago and Firminhos shit form which is the real cause of their collapse imo.
Klopp insistence on playing midfielders in defence was a big problem for them as well he could have played whichever fit CB's he had like he has been doing now rather than completely disrupting the teams dynamics by making players play out of positions, this season's relative failure of Liverpool has as much to do with Klopp's stubbornness as it has to do with their injuries
I'd point to five factors:
1. Simultaneous long-term injuries to all 3 of their regular CBs
2. Underperformance by several key regulars (Mane, Firmino, Thiago) and lack of stepping-up from squad players (f.e. Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Origi)
3. Team philosophy and squad design (not sufficient depth to sustain style of play in the face of injuries, which at least partly reflects conscious choice)
4. Lack of adaptation to changed circumstances. If you're not able to play your chosen style successfully because you lack the players, then you have to play in a different way if you want to succeed. They've not been able to do that.
5. More arguable and speculative than previous points; but you could at least question the mental resilience and attitude of the players, given how poor the results have been compared to the year before.
Abso bloody exactly.
Particularly the point about Mourinho supposedly having us close when we came a distant 2nd with his bloated superstars.
The following few months put paid to that myth.
Yeah he needs to be able to improve the squad to make progress for sure, but I'm operating on the assumption that there'll be slope signings.
What we are witnessing is a squad which is above average , it with bloated wages and players that need to be moved on, but things are difficult given the crazy contracts that were handed out when they should have been allowed to run down.
Around the corner is what are the objectives of the owners, will they understand the need for an experienced Head of Football/CEO and the investment needed for the next step and the adjustment in the roster by moving players who are not needed. If the Glazers just play lip service to the clubs requirements, then we will probably continue to look up as Citeh, an Improved Chelsea plus others actually recruit and invest.
Around the corner is what are the objectives of the owners, will they understand the need for an experienced Head of Football/CEO and the investment needed for the next step and the adjustment in the roster by moving players who are not needed. If the Glazers just play lip service to the clubs requirements, then we will probably continue to look up as Citeh, an Improved Chelsea plus others actually recruit and invest.
I see this being put about a lot. Yes, it probably has to do with a lack of coaching, but it is probably not because the quality of the coaches. The problem is related to lack of time to work on it. It just hasn't been prioritized because there have been more pressing concerns this season. Liverpool under Klopp actually had the same issues regarding set pieces, but they got it right in the end.