Nah, it's easy. When we're fully healthy we usually play good but the moment we have any of our starting 11 missing, we start to turn to shit especially against the supposed weaker teams.
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What injury problems have city had?
Hence almost every other club.
Have we? Pogba was out with Covid, and apparently not fully fit until well into the new year. Martial's had a lengthy absence, Cavani, Rashford and Bailly missed significant time, McTominay and Greenwood some.
City's been without Aguero for most of the season, and significant time for Jesus too, but can't really think of anything else. Chelsea too fairly healthy. In fact I can really only think of Liverpool as a clear-cut much worse case. Maybe Villa since it's Grealish.
So the only other team without problems is the only team above us? Not sure what your point is here then.
We came second best to the only other team that didn't have 'problems'. Let's not ignore their break during winter either, the schedule has been much kinder to them.
If we'd been behind teams who had injury problems then maybe you'd have a point.
I have this amazing ability to view results and events in context. A feat that is possessed by millions more. You should give it a shot <3
Is it though? What about between January and March when we picked up 8 points in 7 games? I’ve covered the stuff about the squad before. If we have a better squad now than the shite we had before then why wouldn’t results be better? My question is, is what we’re doing now really as much progress as there should be 2 and a half years into a managers reign?
I think Solskjaer has done an ok job. How long is doing an ok job going to be good enough? I think he knows what we need and is clearly a good man manager. What isn’t so obvious is whether he has what it takes to actually get us competing at the top.
Our defensive record suggests otherwise though. We’re better in attack. Which has mostly come as a result of signing Bruno Fernandes let’s face it. Clear now?
Why are people focusing on the points total? We’ve made four points more than last season with the potential to be 7pts better off but to some that is not progress.
If that is the case then have City made progress as they willbe only a maximum of 5pts better off.
points in a season is such a stupid argument and if people don’t think we are making progress I think they need to reassess what progress is.
most fans would have snapped your arms off to finish second and be in with a chance of a trophy at start of season.
If that is the case then have City made progress as they willbe only a maximum of 5pts better off.
points in a season is such a stupid argument and if people don’t think we are making progress I think they need to reassess what progress is.
most fans would have snapped your arms off to finish second and be in with a chance of a trophy at start of season.
My point is that our points total should be much closer to City and further from the likes of Chelsea, Leicester and Liverpool.
The fact that they ran us so close is a big concern despite us being relatively healthy throughout the season. We've dropped too many games against the supposed scrubs and that derailed our Champions league campaign along with our league campaign.
They didn't run us close. Top four has been safe for a while. It was never in doubt. You can paint whatever picture you want by the final points totals but that ignores all confounding factors.
What gives us the right to be closer to City than the rest?
Lets take this healthy throughout argument.
We had a 2 week rest after last season, compared to 6 weeks for most clubs. So our players have no rest.
We start the season with Pogba, AWB with Covid.
Cavani has to quarantine so missed some games.
We have had injuries this season to Pogba, Donny, Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Maguire.
Who have Chelsea's main absentees been?
Liverpool have had a terrible season for CB but their forwards have been fit.
Utd and City have dominated this league by more than the table shows imo
What?
Let's ignore the table for argument's sake.
What metrics support us dominating the league this season similar to City?
We're 4th in xPTs. 4th in xG. 4th in xGA.
https://understat.com/league/EPL
Personally i think we have progressed this season albeit with an awful lot of unacceptable performances thrown in here and there. However, we still need 3-4 additions hopefully this will then push the likes of "mcfred" down to a roles of useful squad players only and not 1st team starters. Are we likely to get 3-4 players? i very much doubt it. Ole's been here over 2 and a half years now i just wonder how long he will get before we actually start competing for the big trophies again? My heart says he's the man to take us forward but my head says he ain't taking us any further.Just my opinion though.
Hence our outfield play is better, glad that you agree.. It isn't just signing Bruno, it is also from signing Cavani and improvement in Greenwood's play. Also Rashford can still score his career highest tally of goals in a season.
Didn't realise the league is won on expected points, goals.
2nd in actual points
2nd in actual goals scored
2nd in lowest losses.
Kante, Pulisic, Havertz, Silva, Chilwell and Kovacic have all had decent spells out as far as i can remember
Yeah, I never said it is.
The poster said we have dominated the league along with City more than the table indicates(which I think is silly to ignore anyways). The metrics don't support that. That was my point.
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Both Manchester clubs were at a huge disadvantage at the start of the season, those first 4 to 5 games is where we both dropped the most amount of points because we simply didnt have the fitness. As soon as we got our legs we both surged up the table. When City knew they had the title won they over rotated v Leeds and Chelsea and lost last night. We are comfortably second after our unfair start and are able to be comfortably second despite taking the last 4 games off. For both clubs, thats an insane position to be in when they are comfortably where they are. Its about 8 games each where we either didnt have a chance to win or winning didnt matter.
Just remember that every other team had enough rest to perform from the start and had to keep their foot down all the way through for a top 4 scrap. We both got our points in under 4/5 of the fixtures others had.
I didn’t realise that attack was the only part of playing outfield. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
That doesn't answer the point I'm making though. If Pep isn't adding any value to that squad as a manager, then any half decent manager would be able to achieve the same thing. But I don't think that's the case.
Pretty much.
Yes. I agree there has been some progress. But increasingly, we are reliant on specific players and individual brilliance.
At times, the midfield is poor and we do not create anything like enough chances. Take Cavani away and our strike force is poor as well.
Expected goals, points etc are such an abused stat. All they tell you is what an average player/team in the same position would do, they don't descibe how things "should" be. If you regularly outperform your expected statistics, it can just be that your players are better than average. After all the league winners outperform their xPoints every season, its not that we have a lucky team every year.
Nothing at stake? Yeah, I simply don't agree.
Playing Liverpool at home should always mean something - fans in the stadium or not. Sure Liverpool had more to play for, but we should still put in a better effort to win against our main rivals. Poor mentality in my opinion. As for the Roma game we had an EL final place at stake, which were a couple of really good saves from DDG away from being in real danger, even though we came in with a four goal advantage. As for the Fulham game, we arguably had more to play for than Fulham did - we needed to break a bad run, regain some confidence before the final and had the opportunity to cement 2nd place. We didn't do it, even though we put out our strongest team and Fulham were quite poor.
I am definitely happy about the overall progress this season, but I still have some doubts going forward - the mentality being one of them.
Its all well and good making those points.
United had 6 games in 2 weeks and Liverpool had 2 games in that period. Are you suggesting that has not had any impact?
Well, that is why we have a top keeper between the sticks, to help the team when needed.
I don't think you can question the mentality of the players. Numerous times this season we have been 1-0 down in games, its the mentality that has got us back in games. Many times the team /squad has been under pressure and responded.
I think lack of quality in midfield has been shown in games.
No, of course the schedule and fatigue comes into play as well. However, it is worth noting that we had a full week's rest ahead of the Roma game, five days before the Fulham game and rotated heavily before the Liverpool game.
I agree that our number of comeback victories show character, but we should also question why we go behind so often. This is no coincidence - we are often terrible in the start of games.
We can go back and forth on some of these points - midfield quality is certainly also an issue. Bottom line is that there has been real progress this season, but we still need to improve in a number of areas if we want to challenge next season. For me, mentality is certainly one of them.
You could say the same for any alternative option. LvG and Mourinho didn't win, despite their winning pedigree. Neither of them managed two consecutive top 4 finishes. There's simply no basis for an assumption that OGS is unlikely to get us to the top, and that someone more seasoned is much more likely to. On the strength of returns so far, there is not much reason to question him.
I believe you've got to look at the whole. It's not simply that we have "better players", it's also a question about building a squad that is balanced and fits the way you want to play. You can't argue with the fact results have improved (3rd and 2nd in consecutive seasons), but for me it''s just as much about the fact we're finishing 2nd with a team that is clearly still developing, and where it is easy to envisage how certain squad improvements would bring further improvements to performance. Did you have that sense after Mourinho's second place season? Of course, then too we could have thrown money at better pieces and hope Jose could do something with that, but there was no sense to me that we were heading in a certain direction and just needed to address some specific qualities to unlock better performances and results.
Even more that is the case with some critical intangibles, such as attitude and mentality. Under Mourinho even after that 2nd place finish, this was very bad, and heading in the wrong direction. To such an extent that it was in many ways the issue. Now it's the other way around - good things are very clearly happening, and there seems every reason to expect this team to continue to grow as a unit and become something that encapsulates the winning mentality we used to have.
This season feels like one step forward and two steps back. We have an incredible away record and our ability to recover points from losing positions shows some growth and resilience. But our record at home, 6 defeats and conceding the most goals in 58 years, casts a pretty dark shadow. If we end up losing the final then it will be very difficult to argue that there has been genuine progress this season.
We can go line by line if you'd like, the difference is clear for me. Other than goalkeeper, they shit on us from a great height in the vast majority of positions, if not all. We'd kill for a Gundogan of last season, let alone Bernardo SilvaYeah let's compare our back-up LB to their stand-out right back all season
Ake has barely played all season and will likely leave the club in a season or two. Not much between him and Axel.
Laporte has regressed a lot this season. He's better than Bailly, but the gap isn't as big as it was.
I'll concede on James and McFred.
Selective choices to make an argument though. Our squads aren't worlds apart like so many think which is my point.
Last I checked it is part of outfield game. I didn't know we need to cherry pick to suit our agenda when looking at "our progress". Anyways I am done with this.
The short answer is yes, we are making progress, but actually being closer to winning the league I'm not so sure.
We are up against two clubs whose riches know no bounds, so they, undoubtably, will be able to bring in any players they like, Liverpool have a tremendous crop of players, and a brilliant way of playing, whether they can sustain that is debatable, personally I don't think they will be pushing for the title next season, but will be aiming for top four, Leicester will probably be up there again, and if Leeds get two or three good signings, they may be a force. Villa, Arsenal, Spurs will all add to their squads, so it will be tough for any club to fight for the title, City and Chelsea for me are likely to be the main protagonists.
United, under Ole, have certainly improved, and I believe that our investment in 15 to 17 year old players means that we are unlikely to spend really big over the next few seasons, and hope that, like the class of 92, some of those lads will make it into the first team squad.
The similarities with SAF first three years at OT are uncanny, SAF got rid of players who were a poor influence, who could upset the dressing room, large egos or had other issues, Ole has done the same, but I think there still may be a couple left to go. SAF revamped the whole youth system, although we seem to have started that process before Ole arrived, it has gained momentum during his tenure. SAF's teams occasionally played some awful football before he finally got the players he wanted into the team, which is what we are like at the moment.
Improvement yes, but probably not looking like champions unless we invest heavily, which I don't think we will do.
Because for our side the league campaign was done and dusted when we beat Villa. Also, the leicester, liverpool game being scheduled within 48 hours didn't help our cause. Context matter and the truth is Liverpool were no where close to us this season even if they finish 3 or 4 points behind us.
Two managers failing doesn’t mean that every other manager is destined to fail. There’s plenty of basis for doubting whether Ole can get us back to the top. I should be clear though that my question on how much progress we’re making doesn’t just fall at the feet of the manager. To progress we need better recruitment too. If we’d been told in December 2018 that by 2021 we’d still be no closer to a title challenge than we had been 6 months earlier I don’t think people would’ve been satisfied.
Results have improved slightly from last season. Was last season a good season though? Not really. The progression we’ve seen since Bruno came in has effectively stalled. Now there are outside factors that can be pointed to. Those same outside factors have affected other teams too. Just because we coped better with that doesn’t mean we are automatically better when things return to normal.
The overall quality of the squad is better and mentality is too. I agree with that. With that being the case I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect our results to have been better. Solskjaer has done just enough to remain in the job, but this idea that our continuing progress is guaranteed and anybody who thinks otherwise is blind is absolute nonsense.
Yeah let's compare our back-up LB to their stand-out right back all season
Ake has barely played all season and will likely leave the club in a season or two. Not much between him and Axel.
Laporte has regressed a lot this season. He's better than Bailly, but the gap isn't as big as it was.
I'll concede on James and McFred.
Selective choices to make an argument though. Our squads aren't worlds apart like so many think which is my point.
Ake has barely played all season because he's at City. In my view, he is better than all of our CBs except Maguire. Of course Laporte too, only by a considerably bigger margin. Which means that if you rank the CBs of the two teams together, City has 4 of the top 5 spots.
This is a much better squad than ours, surely that is completely obvious. But the difference is less if you compare first XIs. That's where our hope lies, I suppose.
I think we can agree on the last paragraph, sums it well. We have improved to an extent. Ovbiously if we want to win the league, we need to improve in a number of areas.
Mentality wise, I think the biggest criticism I can give is, if we play 5/6 games where we win well, the players we have think they are the best in the league and become complacent. This is becoming a real issue for us.
It was pretty tight for xG and xPts until this most recent run of dead rubber games, which are exactly dead rubber games. Also pretty easy to chop and change the dates in there to show that we've actually been quite good. As in take our the first month of the season where we blatantly had a disadvantage compared to the rest of the league because of no pre season and physically weren't up to speed (basically start date of after the first international break) and we are 3rd in xPts, 3rd in xG with a narrow/negligible difference between 2-4th, and 3rd in xGagainst. XG does have its flaws, and you can't just look at it out of context like with all stats. We are 2nd highest scorers, but 7th in goals against. Have the 2nd best goal difference, and have been comfortably 2nd in points for a while now. In fact we've been 2nd or 1st since Christmas, and only really had the 2 periods of bad form, both pretty easily explainable (start of the season with no match fitness, end of the season dead rubber games).
The performances in the majority of those games weren't bad at all, and the finishing (as well as poor refereeing) let us down, as well as poor defending in the Everton home draw. The only bad games we had during that run were Palace away, Sheffield Utd at home and West Brom away, and even with the latter two, despite the poor performances, we'd have won both if the referees didn't cock up. We should have beaten Arsenal and we would have beaten Chelsea if the refs were competent.
My point regarding the squad is that it is predominantly comprised of the players who were here before Ole came into it. Almost all of them have improved markedly but despite that improvement some of them don't have particularly high ceilings and need to be improved upon. And considering the backing the other two managers got before him, and the relative lack of backing he's received thus far, I'd say he's done more than an okay job. Especially when you compare it to the teams around us, who were in a much better position than we were...
Yes, the clue is in the word part. One part improved, another has regressed. And thank God you’re done.
I think right now we have the best group of players since fergie's retirement. This was never going to be an easy job. It's easy to say we're no different from where we were under mourinho, but the team did need a surgery and I think in that regard Ole did a great job. We play good football and there seems to be harmony within the team. I genuinely think we're few players away from becoming a big force again challenging for everything.
Having said that, next season has to be much better. Ole has proven that he can build a team, and his next challenge is to prove that he can win with the team. Time will tell, but progress has been made.
Having said that, next season has to be much better. Ole has proven that he can build a team, and his next challenge is to prove that he can win with the team. Time will tell, but progress has been made.