Our Progress

[theklr]

I'd point to five factors:

1. Simultaneous long-term injuries to all 3 of their regular CBs
2. Underperformance by several key regulars (Mane, Firmino, Thiago) and lack of stepping-up from squad players (f.e. Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Origi)
3. Team philosophy and squad design (not sufficient depth to sustain style of play in the face of injuries, which at least partly reflects conscious choice)
4. Lack of adaptation to changed circumstances. If you're not able to play your chosen style successfully because you lack the players, then you have to play in a different way if you want to succeed. They've not been able to do that.
5. More arguable and speculative than previous points; but you could at least question the mental resilience and attitude of the players, given how poor the results have been compared to the year before.

While I agree with your points, the injuries and underperformance is sort of an effect of all the success Liverpool has had the last years because of the high intensity/pressure gamestyle with the same squad relentlessly over many seasons.

Very similar to what happened with Klopp's Dortmund.

 

[acnumber9]

So apart from league position, what decides the "accurate" representation of the team?

Do you really believe that Chelsea had the 9th best set of players in the league before Tuchel came in?

We were 6th when Solskjaer took over in 18-19 We finished 6th on 66 points. We finished 3rd the next season with 66 points and in the interim period the three teams who had finished directly above us all sacked their managers. I’m not saying we aren’t any better at all. I’m asking how much better are we really and is it enough? How much has our improved league position been driven by our improvements and how much by the collapse of others?

 

[acnumber9]

We missed Pogba for most of last season, finished 3rd. Missing VVD doesnt explain away Mane, Thiago and Firminhos shit form which is the real cause of their collapse imo.

I’m not saying it’s the only reason. I’m saying a shorter pre season isn’t a greater handicap than not having your most important player for most of the season. Look at the state of our defence against Liverpool last week without Maguire.

 

[theklr]

Do you really believe that Chelsea had the 9th best set of players in the league before Tuchel came in?

We were 6th when Solskjaer took over in 18-19 We finished 6th on 66 points. We finished 3rd the next season with 66 points and in the interim period the three teams who had finished directly above us all sacked their managers. I’m not saying we aren’t any better at all. I’m asking how much better are we really and is it enough? How much has our improved league position been driven by our improvements and how much by the collapse of others?

This will be very interesting to see next season , since it will be a "normal" season with both Chelsea and Liverpool probably getting back to their old self.

 

[romufc]

Do you really believe that Chelsea had the 9th best set of players in the league before Tuchel came in?

We were 6th when Solskjaer took over in 18-19 We finished 6th on 66 points. We finished 3rd the next season with 66 points and in the interim period the three teams who had finished directly above us all sacked their managers. I’m not saying we aren’t any better at all. I’m asking how much better are we really and is it enough? How much has our improved league position been driven by our improvements and how much by the collapse of others?

It doesn't matter what I believe the players are.. do you believe SU are the worst set of players? They almost got into Europe last season.

How aren't we better? We have better results against the bigger teams now. We have 4 plus goal margins in more games than we did under all 3 previous managers.

We have a better team mentality and spirit.

The collapse is down to the manager though, why are the same Chelsea players now fighting for top 4 and CL under a different manager?

At the start of the season alot of fans had us down to finish 5th and below, so getting 2nd is shows progress considering we have 3/4 positions with holes in them.

 

[acnumber9]

It doesn't matter what I believe the players are.. do you believe SU are the worst set of players? They almost got into Europe last season.

How aren't we better? We have better results against the bigger teams now. We have 4 plus goal margins in more games than we did under all 3 previous managers.

We have a better team mentality and spirit.

The collapse is down to the manager though, why are the same Chelsea players now fighting for top 4 and CL under a different manager?

At the start of the season alot of fans had us down to finish 5th and below, so getting 2nd is shows progress considering we have 3/4 positions with holes in them.

Yes I do. They grossly over performed last season.

I believe we’re slightly better. Our results in big games have got worse this season though. We’ve added one of the most creative players in Europe. I believe that accounts for most of the improvement we’ve seen. The form of some players has improved also such as Shaw and Rashford. I don’t think results are as good as they should be given those facts.

My point on Chelsea is that now they’ve replaced the manager that was underperforming are we a better team than them? That will be tested next season. Our we second instead of third because they had a lame duck manager? If we were third instead of second would people still see us as making progress?

 

[acnumber9]

This will be very interesting to see next season , since it will be a "normal" season with both Chelsea and Liverpool probably getting back to their old self.

I hope I’m wrong, but I think we’ll have a job on just to finish second again.

 

[romufc]

Yes I do. They grossly over performed last season.

I believe we’re slightly better. Our results in big games have got worse this season though. We’ve added one of the most creative players in Europe. I believe that accounts for most of the improvement we’ve seen. The form of some players has improved also such as Shaw and Rashford. I don’t think results are as good as they should be given those facts.

My point on Chelsea is that now they’ve replaced the manager that was underperforming are we a better team than them? That will be tested next season. Our we second instead of third because they had a lame duck manager? If we were third instead of second would people still see us as making progress?

The point is we are not 3rd. If but's and maybe's.

We have lost same number of games as City.. the best team in the league, why is that not progress?

If City didn't have a winter break would they have won the league? Who knows. The point is we are 2nd so that is progress, with a EL final too.

 

[acnumber9]

The point is we are not 3rd. If but's and maybe's.

We have lost same number of games as City.. the best team in the league, why is that not progress?

If City didn't have a winter break would they have won the league? Who knows. The point is we are 2nd so that is progress, with a EL final too.

Not much point in carrying on them. You don’t win the league based on how many games you lose. And league tables are based on how well you are doing in comparison to others. You can move up the table by standing still if others around you drop.

 

[justsomebloke]

While I agree with your points, the injuries and underperformance is sort of an effect of all the success Liverpool has had the last years because of the high intensity/pressure gamestyle with the same squad relentlessly over many seasons.

Very similar to what happened with Klopp's Dortmund.

Fair point, that.

 

[cyberman]

I’m not saying it’s the only reason. I’m saying a shorter pre season isn’t a greater handicap than not having your most important player for most of the season. Look at the state of our defence against Liverpool last week without Maguire.

Look at Liverpool after the restart last year, look at them at the start of this season with VVD. Its not just their defence but how Klopp dealt with it. VVD getting injured was just a convenient excuse since its not their defence thats the actual problem. Hell we concede first every other game and our attackers are good enough to turn it around.
Edit fun fact. We have conceded 1 more goal than Liverpool

 

[romufc]

Not much point in carrying on them. You don’t win the league based on how many games you lose. And league tables are based on how well you are doing in comparison to others. You can move up the table by standing still if others around you drop.

And you can win the league with same number of points as a 2nd placed team in a different season.

 

[acnumber9]

Look at Liverpool after the restart last year, look at them at the start of this season with VVD. Its not just their defence but how Klopp dealt with it. VVD getting injured was just a convenient excuse since its not their defence thats the actual problem. Hell we concede first every other game and our attackers are good enough to turn it around.
Edit fun fact. We have conceded 1 more goal than Liverpool

No doubt it’s not the only issue they’ve had. They were likely to drop off regardless. It’s obviously a massive problem to miss your best centre back though. Look at the absolute state of our defence last week in the first league game Maguire didn’t play in since we signed him. The question is would you rather have had a short pre season or not had your most important player available? I know what I would prefer.

Do you genuinely believe that Liverpool wouldn’t have more points if Van Dijk hadn’t been injured?

 

[acnumber9]

And you can win the league with same number of points as a 2nd placed team in a different season.

Indeed. Not sure how that’s relevant to this Man United team though and whether we’re much better than previous seasons.

 

[bosnian_red]

Klopp insistence on playing midfielders in defence was a big problem for them as well he could have played whichever fit CB's he had like he has been doing now rather than completely disrupting the teams dynamics by making players play out of positions, this season's relative failure of Liverpool has as much to do with Klopp's stubbornness as it has to do with their injuries

Tbf to Klopp he had his first 3 CB's all get season ending injuries...Its like if we had Tuanzebe and Mengi to choose from all season for centerbacks. I'm sure we'd dabble with McTominay and Matic. They signed Kabak in January too to actually have options and then he got injured too

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Vs Leicester, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Spurs, Liverpool -

2019/20: 7 wins, 3 draws, 2 defeats, +9 goal difference
2020/21: 2 wins, 6 draws, 4 defeats, -5 goal difference

Progress?

Not in those fixtures, but have you considered including all the games against every other team in the league?

We have more points than we got in that season and still have a game to play.

 

[OleBoiii]

- From 3rd to 2nd.
- Distance down to 5th place widened.
- Distance up to 1st place narrowed.
- Yet to play the EL final(but first final reached nonetheless)

The above are facts that make it impossible to make any reasonable argument against us having progressed.

Then there's the deeper context which strengthens the case: for various reasons(the protests, City being a little too far ahead etc) we didn't really give our best in the last 4 games. That is 12 points potentially thrown away, not because of lack of skill, coaching or whatever. Not to mention all the points we dropped in the beginning because of our lack of a proper preseason. But of course the genius football historians in here will look back to this season and say: "Aha! We only got 5 points more! That is basically nothing! I was right all along!"

We also play better football this season, imo. That's subjective, though.

 

[theklr]

Vs Leicester, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Spurs, Liverpool -

2019/20: 7 wins, 3 draws, 2 defeats, +9 goal difference
2020/21: 2 wins, 6 draws, 4 defeats, -5 goal difference

Progress?

Yes, lets rather win the "Top 6" trophy than 2nd and comfortable CL qualification.

 

[NZT-One]

It doesn't matter what I believe the players are.. do you believe SU are the worst set of players? They almost got into Europe last season.

How aren't we better? We have better results against the bigger teams now. We have 4 plus goal margins in more games than we did under all 3 previous managers.

We have a better team mentality and spirit.

The collapse is down to the manager though, why are the same Chelsea players now fighting for top 4 and CL under a different manager?

At the start of the season alot of fans had us down to finish 5th and below, so getting 2nd is shows progress considering we have 3/4 positions with holes in them.

This seems like some odd logic... I mean, we as fans can expect what we want or don't want, how is getting 2nd a sign of progress because of that? Thats so weird - we were expecting Top4 because we expected sort of stable trends of our competitors like City, Pool, Chelsea and Spurs. None of them really followed that expected trend though - City took half a year to really hit champions form, Pool fell of a cliff, Chelsea struggled, Spurs imploded. Leicester is one of the only teams to continue their trend and they are 4 points behind us. Nobody would take business numbers from 2006, compare them with numbers from 2020 and come to the conclusion that as we significantly increased our numbers, our ownership would be good for the club.
If the club itself internally set the goal for Top4 finish and got 2nd, that I'd agree would be progress - but we probably will never know that for sure. We've had a very good season but us being 2nd, for me, has more (at least just as much) to do with what other teams didn't do, than about what we did.

I agree with the OP, I think there surely is progress, we were able to grind results even when we were playing crap and we also managed to play some nice stuff but at the same time, we had big issues in critical moments, left CL group and title race in a disappointing manner, lost to direct rivals. This is not complaining, its just summarizing the season as a whole.

So yes, progress has been made. But I am a little worried that next season reality might hit us harder than some people expect. Other teams noticed our upwards trend, they will be prepared just like the bigger teams have been prepared this year. But still, I certainly wouldn't think a second about changing the managing team right now as there is no obvious candidate who really fills me with confidence. Ole might not be a Tuchel figure who is deep into the nitty-gritty pro-active puppet mastering but by setting the right environment, Ole can provide the squad with the opportunity to evolve.

 

[NZT-One]

Yes, lets rather win the "Top 6" trophy than 2nd and comfortable CL qualification.

So lets just ignore some indicators for performance evaluation and just enjoy the indicators with the happy faces? Seems a bit shortsighted to me.

It is a worrying trend, nothing less, nothing more. But it is a trend we should ignore.

 

[rotherham_red]

And you’re missing the point that no pre season isn’t the only variable that has affected teams this season. Missing your most important player for most of the season is a bigger handicap.

The point being made is that we’re measuring progress by league finish. Had Liverpool or Chelsea not had those issues and we finished fourth as a result would we have made progress? Are we just carrying on the same level that was gained by signing Bruno? Because that’s where you can really chart improvement. We’ve added one of the best players in the league. Have results improved as much as they should have as a result? I’m not sure.

Their most important player who was also a part of their team who shipped 3 against Leeds and 7 against Villa, that guy? Of course, it's all hypothetical from your end, but they had some shocking defensive performances after lockdown with him in the side as well...

A pretty big part of why we got 3rd last year was Martial. He hasn't even turned up this season. We've had more goals from the likes of McTominay and the fullbacks, and Maguire and Shaw have really come on in their ball progression from deep. We have come on a long way this season, so much so that Bruno hasn't really been the deciding factor in that many games for us since January, certainly not as much as he was this time last season.

With that being said, we need more because certain players are starters when they really should be squad players and bringing those upgrades in will see a further progression of the team. I'd say we're 4 top quality additions away from being a complete team, but just getting in two of those players would see us come on leaps and bounds.

 

[TheBreadTruck]

Yeh I get that most people aren't smart enough to spot patterns and realise that maybe these woeful results against these sides, supposedly on roughly equal footing to us ability-wise, might be indicative of something significant, that will continue to keep us far away from winning titles.

I don't care about how comfortable a top four finish was, last time I checked we're not Arsenal.

Could also be a case that this season those teams took us a lot more seriously with a defensive approach, and they were mostly heavily contested games (Spurs game withstanding, but we all know the issues we had at the start of the season with no pre-).

Statistics are like bikini's, what they show is important but what they hide is vital. You can splice things up in different ways, personally I feel we're playing much better football than in the last 10 years but only in small bursts -> the next step now for me is maintaining that form not just throughout an entire 90 mins regularly but on multiple runs throughout a season.

 

[rotherham_red]

I'm more interested in how the results and performances have declined so alarmingly in all the fixtures that are fought on an even keel.

We've been really good this season at not turning up in the first halves of matches and shipping goals away, and then coming back to win against bottom half clubs.

What the results from the big match ups show is that this approach doesn't work against good teams and this is why I don't think we've moved any closer to winning titles from last season. We haven't been able to string a good performance together over two halves of football all season. It's why we were humiliated in the CL and its why we've scraped 2 wins from 12 against the other competitive sides in the league.

Or, it could show that these teams, rather than not paying us any respect and playing their normal games against us, are now adapting to us and how we play. It says just as much about them, as it does us, if not more.

Not withstanding the hyperbole in the last sentence (because I can certainly remember quite a few dominant and strong 90 minute performances from us this season), we have played 2 games a week almost every week this season. The players are clearly knackered and despite all these issues, they are still second and in a European final. If we're meant to be worried for the coming season, what about Chelsea and Liverpool?

 

[acnumber9]

Their most important player who was also a part of their team who shipped 3 against Leeds and 7 against Villa, that guy? Of course, it's all hypothetical from your end, but they had some shocking defensive performances after lockdown with him in the side as well...

A pretty big part of why we got 3rd last year was Martial. He hasn't even turned up this season. We've had more goals from the likes of McTominay and the fullbacks, and Maguire and Shaw have really come on in their ball progression from deep. We have come on a long way this season, so much so that Bruno hasn't really been the deciding factor in that many games for us since January, certainly not as much as he was this time last season.

With that being said, we need more because certain players are starters when they really should be squad players and bringing those upgrades in will see a further progression of the team. I'd say we're 4 top quality additions away from being a complete team, but just getting in two of those players would see us come on leaps and bounds.

Yes, they had some bad performances with him. I’m not saying he’s the only reason they have 30 points less this season. Do you really think they aren’t a better team with him and would likely have had better results if he wasn’t injured? Come on.

You mention Bruno not being the deciding factor since January. Our league form since the beginning of January would have us 5th in the table. With the same number of points as Arsenal. To me that points to him being the progress.

 

[theklr]

Yeh I get that most people aren't smart enough to spot patterns and realise that maybe these woeful results against these sides, supposedly on roughly equal footing to us ability-wise, might be indicative of something significant, that will continue to keep us far away from winning titles.

I don't care about how comfortable a top four finish was, last time I checked we're not Arsenal.

You mean, spot that in 19/20 we primarily only played counter attacking against those sides and it suited us perfectly because they wanted to go on attack all game?

While this season they didnt dare go on attack because of this, and actually played very defensivly and simultaneously we were trying to play a more balanced type of play?

Yes, its a worry that we werent good enough to play through them, ofcourse I get your point. But that was a side effect of us trying to play more possession based, so we were better against the lower end sides.

As we hopefully will add another creative player and have more experience with this type of play, that is more or less the last piece of the puzzle in my opinion.

But adapting a different style of play that gains us more points overall is a progress, no matter how you twist it.

 

[justsomebloke]

I'm more interested in how the results and performances have declined so alarmingly in all the fixtures that are fought on an even keel.

We've been really good this season at not turning up in the first halves of matches and shipping goals away, and then coming back to win against bottom half clubs.

What the results from the big match ups show is that this approach doesn't work against good teams and this is why I don't think we've moved any closer to winning titles from last season. We haven't been able to string a good performance together over two halves of football all season. It's why we were humiliated in the CL and its why we've scraped 2 wins from 12 against the other competitive sides in the league.

It's clear that subpar first half performances is a flaw that needs to be remedied (and OGS seems pretty clear on that). But it hardly amounts to an "approach".

I'm actually not hugely worried by our record against top teams this season, because there seems to me to be perfectly understandable reasons for it. Last year, we got shockingly good results from playing a low-lying, counterattack based game, against teams who showed up trying to control and dominate the game. We're not getting those opportunities this year, because strong opposing teams no longer play us that way - some of them have even reverted to a downright defensive approach (Chelsea at Trafford, for example). They now approach us more carefully, which means we have to beat them by contesting dominance (which we would I think in any case attempt, because you're never going to be a dominant team if you can't do that). But we're simply not good enough yet to prevail in that way with any regularity against really strong teams. Not really surprising, and something that in my view indicates we're a team in transition rather than a team who's already arrived. This is one of the reasons why the next transfer window will be so crucial.

 

[rotherham_red]

Yes, they had some bad performances with him. I’m not saying he’s the only reason they have 30 points less this season. Do you really think they aren’t a better team with him and would likely have had better results if he wasn’t injured? Come on.

You mention Bruno not being the deciding factor since January. Our league form since the beginning of January would have us 5th in the table. With the same number of points as Arsenal. To me that points to him being the progress.

Their PPG after lockdown was trending downwards, and they actually stabilised for quite a decent chunk of time after his injury until January which is when they went into freefall. You'd like to think that if he was so important to them, they wouldn't be top of the league 3 months after his injury, but you probably have a different definition of important to me.

Yes, and I've already mentioned that the performances in the majority of those games have been decent and we by and large deserved wins in most of them. Poor refereeing and not seeing out certain games correctly has cost us, but with this being a young team it's expected.

 

[acnumber9]

Their PPG after lockdown was trending downwards, and they actually stabilised for quite a decent chunk of time after his injury until January which is when they went into freefall. You'd like to think that if he was so important to them, they wouldn't be top of the league 3 months after his injury, but you probably have a different definition of important to me.

Yes, and I've already mentioned that the performances in the majority of those games have been decent and we by and large deserved wins in most of them. Poor refereeing and not seeing out certain games correctly has cost us, but with this being a young team it's expected.

Ok, Liverpool wouldn’t be likely to have more points with Van Dijk in their team. Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe Van Dijk is an important part of Liverpool’s team then you’ve a different definition of important to everybody.

But you were wrong when you said that. We were fecking abysmal in many of those games whether you say we weren’t or not.

 

[rotherham_red]

Ok, Liverpool wouldn’t be likely to have more points with Van Dijk in their team. Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe Van Dijk is an important part of Liverpool’s team then you’ve a different definition of important to everybody.

But you were wrong when you said that. We were fecking abysmal in many of those games whether you say we weren’t or not.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that they were top of the table in January. For me, their issues weren't necessarily because VVD wasn't there, but that they struggled to fit Thiago in once he regained his fitness after his injury v Everton.

That's your opinion, it's not a fact, as I'm sure you're aware. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[acnumber9]

Again, you're ignoring the fact that they were top of the table in January. For me, their issues weren't necessarily because VVD wasn't there, but that they struggled to fit Thiago in once he regained his fitness after his injury v Everton.

That's your opinion, it's not a fact, as I'm sure you're aware. We'll agree to disagree.

I’m not. They were top until around the time they had to play two central midfielders in defence. Something greatly influenced by losing Van Dijk. If anything I underplayed the injuries they suffered. What you’re doing is blatantly refusing to acknowledge that losing a centre back as good as Van Dijk is a massive issue just because they coped alright for a while. In the process you’re losing any credibility.

Indeed it is an opinion. One that most football fans watching the games would have shared.

 

[OJKernow]

Some people in this thread! Use your eyes, you can see the progress clear as day. Is it perfect? No. Do we still have issues to resolve? Yes. Has there been progress? Absolutely.

On the whole, the football has been so much more enjoyable, and the players are showing strong togetherness and a real desire and grit about them. There are still weak links, sure, and we've had more than our share of disappointing and frustrating games, but the good times outweigh the bad. Or have we all forgotten just how bad it ended up under previous managers?

For those that want to look solely at the numbers instead of what is actually happening in front of them:

We've gone from 6th -> 3rd -> 2nd in the last three seasons, with the gap to the eventual winners being 33pts ->32pts ->12pts (as things stand). Progress, end of.

Yes, we never really mounted a serious 'title challenge' this year, but we asked some questions and sat top for a little while at the turn of the year, and didn't that feel great?! Plus it took City until the penultimate week of the season to wrap it up, with us dropping off the last few games down to fixture congestion and focussing on the European final that we have to look forward to next week!

Obviously we don't expect to sit back and admire the progress, we need more solid recruitment and for the lads to kick on another level again next season. But please, some of you need to try to enjoy the positives, rather than drowning yourselves in a sea of negativity constantly, it's not worth it and can't be good for you.

 

[ReddBalls]

So lets just ignore some indicators for performance evaluation and just enjoy the indicators with the happy faces? Seems a bit shortsighted to me.

What value does it bring to the team that "fans" do "performance evalutions" and look for "negative indicators"? Do you also go to concerts with your favorite band or artist to do "performance evaluations" and look for "negative indicators"?

Ole is obviously not stupid, and he knows what need s to be worked on, which he has shown so far. Building a title winning team is not done in a day. See SAF, Klopp, Guardiola and so on. United is slowly getting there.

 

[sincher]

Any fans talking about 'progress' are pretty much guaranteed to be chatting shit about reasons for not winning stuff.

You can jump from being a shite side to a good one and back down again. Can happen quickly or slowly depending on a whole heap of factors.

So I don't know about progress but I do think the current United are in the best shape since SAF left. The squad is mostly on the young side and can improve, and we have better young players than in some time, especially in the U-18 age bracket. What we really could do with is owners that aren't bleeding the club, then we could really go for it.

 

[Stig]

Any fans talking about 'progress' are pretty much guaranteed to be chatting shit about reasons for not winning stuff.

You can jump from being a shite side to a good one and back down again. Can happen quickly or slowly depending on a whole heap of factors.

So I don't know about progress but I do think the current United are in the best shape since SAF left. The squad is mostly on the young side and can improve, and we have better young players than in some time, especially in the U-18 age bracket. What we really could do with is owners that aren't bleeding the club, then we could really go for it.

Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.

1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit

 

[simplyared]

To be fully satisfied and say we've progressed would be pushing it in my view.
We have issues with our squad which has been highlighted over the last couple of weeks when we have been without our captain.
The team has fell apart without him. Shaw, for example has gone from world class to looking very mediocre and that's being kind to him.
Pogba is looking bang average. Those extra qualities we've seen just aren't there.
Then I reckon there's still a problem with the mentality of some of the players!
The recent Liverpool game showed that. We were so weak in that game and literally gave them the win. That shouldn't be happening!
We must be far more clinical and kill off games more often than we have done. We dominate most other teams for long periods but we cannot seem to cash in on it. Another weakness!
We lack backbone in the team and in the manager to some extent!
Yes we've managed 2nd place but truth is city have run away with the title. The wheels fell off Liverpool when they lost VVD and they've been very poor. Chelsea needed a top manager to come in and since then they've performed but they've been pretty dire for most part of the season.
So we shouldn't be kidding ourselves. These last couple of weeks have been terrible imo and there are questions to be asked.
If I'm honest and we want to progress further we need to look at our coaching staff, including Ole.

 

[sincher]

Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.

1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit

That is not the only measure though is it?

We make more money than all other clubs but cannot spend in the same way City or Chelsea can.

We do also, of course, need to spend more wisely.

 

[Polar]

Courtesy of Transfermarkt, we’ve ranked the 20 current Premier League clubs by their net spend over the past five years.

1. Man City – £601.98m
2. Man Utd – £484.88m
3. Arsenal – £267.88m
4. Everton – £225.42m
5. Brighton – £214.86m
6. Wolves – £205.22m
7. West Ham – £187.49m
8. Bournemouth – £176.95m
9. Aston Villa – £166.65m
10. Watford – £125.69m
11. Leicester City – £124.83m
12. Newcastle – £122.91m
13. Chelsea – £115.57m
14. Liverpool – £107.58m
15. Tottenham – £106.62m
16. Crystal Palace – £75.69m
17. Burnley – £59.4m
18. Sheffield United – £56.71m
19. Southampton – £22.32m
20. Norwich City – £25.42m profit

Everyone know United have been idiot on the transfermarket, specially before Ole arrived.

What is relevant now is:
1. Transfer costs the last two years
2. How much we have spent on our XI or squad compared with other clubs.

 

[bsCallout]

Favourite season as a United fan since Fergie. That's all that matters to me.

 

[Borussin]

To be fully satisfied and say we've progressed would be pushing it in my view.
We have issues with our squad which has been highlighted over the last couple of weeks when we have been without our captain.
The team has fell apart without him. Shaw, for example has gone from world class to looking very mediocre and that's being kind to him.
Pogba is looking bang average. Those extra qualities we've seen just aren't there.
Then I reckon there's still a problem with the mentality of some of the players!
The recent Liverpool game showed that. We were so weak in that game and literally gave them the win. That shouldn't be happening!
We must be far more clinical and kill off games more often than we have done. We dominate most other teams for long periods but we cannot seem to cash in on it. Another weakness!
We lack backbone in the team and in the manager to some extent!
Yes we've managed 2nd place but truth is city have run away with the title. The wheels fell off Liverpool when they lost VVD and they've been very poor. Chelsea needed a top manager to come in and since then they've performed but they've been pretty dire for most part of the season.
So we shouldn't be kidding ourselves. These last couple of weeks have been terrible imo and there are questions to be asked.
If I'm honest and we want to progress further we need to look at our coaching staff, including Ole.

I seem to recall Liverpool where doing absolutely fine without VVD for a while, so I don’t think you are right in saying that. It was more a combination of them losing their other 2 centre backs in the next few weeks, and then having to move midfielders back so then weakening their midfield significantly, then losing other players like Jota, like Henderson and of course Thiago too for a long segments of season. It is no surprise actually that Liverpool had this crash, you look at previous 3 seasons to keep up with Manchester City and even overtake them and win the league and champions league took super human effort really, it was bound to come crashing down. A proper break for some of the key players in their squad, i.e. those not going to Euros, and pre-season, they will be back strong I think.

The turnaround the last few weeks despite having to play young inexperienced and not really very good centre backs has been quite impressive, but it doesn’t surprise me. People count out Kloppo a lot with the usual ‘look what happened in his last season at Dortmund’, without understanding what actually happened. He turned that around too. There are always highs and lows. Even with Guardiola and the fact he always has the best squads and the most money to spend, had a big dip last year - they remedied a lot of that by spending £100m on central defenders in the summer.

For Man Utd to keep improving, and yes there has been improvment this season, means they too have to keep on top of things, and make good additions to the squad, no one will stand still, not Liverpool, not chelsea, and of course not Man City.

 

[NZT-One]

What value does it bring to the team that "fans" do "performance evalutions" and look for "negative indicators"? Do you also go to concerts with your favorite band or artist to do "performance evaluations" and look for "negative indicators"?

This is a thread, where the OP asked for opinions about the extent of progress. I've shared my opinion just like anybody else and the reply you quoted was specifically towards somebody who stated that the mild increase of points gained doesn't matter because the only thing that counts is league position.

So good job getting triggered by a few specific words just because you consider everybody bitchy when they don't share your opinion. Its bewildering that some people seemingly are so positive about the clubs progress that they simply cannot stand other people not feeling the same way... If you are so secure about the progress why are you entering such a thread? Weird.

Ole is obviously not stupid, and he knows what need s to be worked on, which he has shown so far. Building a title winning team is not done in a day. See SAF, Klopp, Guardiola and so on. United is slowly getting there.

Another valuable contribution. Wasn't aware that Ole just started his job in winter. I am sure, you will be here next year having the same explanation for why we aren't top. Apart from that: good to know, you see progress and see us continuing the upwards trend. I'd love to see it to the same extent.