Nah I've not seen enough in this regard. We are clunky and sluggish as a possession. It's been a real problem for years that sadly we haven't made enough progress in fixing. Imo.
Our Finishing
- Thread starter Mr.Ridiculous__
- Start date
Yawn. Everything you say comes down to “Klopp does this”, “Liverpool do that”. Get a grip. We never played possession football under SAF, ever. We always played direct football, as we do now. We just had a much, much better team back then, unless you’re going to equate Fred and McT to Scholes and Keane, or Ronaldo and Rooney to Rashford and Martial?
If you love Liverpool so much, maybe you should go and sign up for RAWK.
Ah yes. Pretending luck and mediocrity wins you titles is a sure shot way to fill up one's confidence in their own chances. Who needs quality and excellence when being jammy is the ultimate virtue.
You sound like a loon in the last para btw. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting Manchester United, currently a team that doesn't play possession football well, to improve at it. If that's a fantasy then we're in huge trouble. But I don't think it is and nor are we.
Not really. That's what your insecure mind that isn't able to respond wants to think. As I've already explained and you've again struggled to comprehend, we were always capable of keeping the ball well as well. You don't achieve squat being a one note team. Same goes for bayern Madrid barca and every other successful club. Even Mourinho s Madrid liked counter attacking but could control games well.
And yes having better players helps but isn't a necessity in implementing a system. You want more examples, see Leicester.
United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
I don’t agree. We actually create chances and score good goals (at a rate in line with our rivals) for the first time in about decade. This doesn’t happen without displaying some quality in possession.
Can we improve? Yes, clearly. But this will be a little more long term. Ole doesn’t really believe that McTominay and Fred are the answer to dominating football matches through the midfield, but it’s the best he’s got for the time being. I can only assume that the plan is to move Pogba on and replace him with somebody who can get their foot on the ball and defend at the same time. Van de Beek will become more integrated into the first team, too.
With some good planning and a bit of luck in the market I expect we’ll improve from a possession standpoint. It won’t be overnight, however.
Any really good players here? Anyone played at a high level?
Should Rashford spear the far corner high? Go between the legs? Cute near post?
Genuinely want to know.
Should Rashford spear the far corner high? Go between the legs? Cute near post?
Genuinely want to know.
We 'appear' to miss a lot more sitters than others but that could just be red tinted glasses.
Given that we've scored 2nd most goals in the league (only Liverpool is higher) and shipped off more goals than anyone else in top 12, I'd say the problems are somewhere in the defense.
Given that we've scored 2nd most goals in the league (only Liverpool is higher) and shipped off more goals than anyone else in top 12, I'd say the problems are somewhere in the defense.
Inappropriate Behavior
You’re an embarrassment of a poster
Constantly crying that we don’t play like Liverpool. You whine that we didn’t have enough possession today and write off the fact that we were by far the better team, with by far the better chances as winning the “better chance moral high ground trophy”. Laughable.
There are lots of ways to play football, lots of ways to win trophies. You would know this if you were old enough to see United play before SAF retired.
Either way, you’re clearly a blinkered idiot and not worth my time. Another one for the ignore list.
I didn't exactly play at a high level but I was always a good finisher. Off the top of my head I'd probably say bottom near corner, but I'd have to watch it again with a proper replay to be sure. The one thing that he should not have done is put it at the height that he did. It's basically the perfect height for the keeper and maximises his chance of saving it. Pretty much anything else would be better.
United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
Does xG account for the context of the finish?
Yes.
Obviously depends on the quality of the model and the fit but should average out over big data.
No it doesn't. It takes into account various historical factors: which are primarily physical in nature.
You have to see that at clutch moments that can decisively take us over the edge in some competitions, we are failing to score. Basically in some high pressure, high stake games we are not taking our chances.
PSG at home, Leicester today are just two I can recall but there are more.
Now you are completely losing it. Take a break and stop insulting everyone. And if you love possession so much you can always watch videos of LvG’s United.
We scored 9 of that 15 goals in 2 games though. And when it mattered most (against PSG), we missed crucial chances and conceded soon after which eventually buried us.United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
We can't expect our strikers to do much better than now in general though (Martial yes, Rashford, Cavani and Bruno no).
Today was the first time we've truly missed some golden chances and lost 2 points because of that (in EPL). But I guess it's the other end of the pitch which is causing us much more trouble.
United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
We score difficult goals and miss sitters. Finishing is a problem. We have class players who make us score more than our XG (it’s what makes top players top players) but to get to the next level we need to be scoring the sitters.
Yep. Basicly, I think we created about four terrific chances today and scored two of them. That's not too bad. Going away to an opponent that's close to you in the league table and score two is generally good. It's just that our defence means we regularly need to score more in order to win.
You just can't expect your attack to always bail you out.
He was asking about context of the finish, not context of the match.
We have scored big goals, we have conceded big goals. Fans are likelier to remember the latter.
100%.
The #6 is the biggest problem.
A better CB or solving our lopsided attack with a right-sided wingforward would be the next prios.
We need to stop conceding simple goals to get to the next level.
Leicester's first was a really bad one. Bruno with the giveaway and mcTominay sleeping and not pressing the attacker.
Obviously the Demba Ba goal took the cake and cost us the CL knockouts.
I was thinking the same, and happy someone actually have the stats to back it up. could have agreed last season but now? Feels like we finally play fun attacking football and score goals. Yes we miss chances. So does all teams. Rashford missed one very good and one decent chance today, but we were also a bit lucky in other aspects. More or less the whole chain to Rashfords goal was lucky, from Lindelof to James to Bruno to Marcus. I’d say it evens out.United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
Martial was poor in the CL in many finishes, but it’s also part of football that forwards sometimes struggle to do a goal
Huge problem and why Cavani should be starting
Wrong. I was insulted and prefer to respond. Another who has it upside down. One doesn't have to live in these arbitrary extremes. Being able to control football matches doesn't mean you have to play like LVG's United. This is the second time that's come up and it shows how warped some views are on possession football. Having to chose between the two, I prefer watching teams that go for aggressive approach, however, it is important that, no matter what approach you take, you're coached into being excellent on the ball, as two/there passes won't always score you a goal. It's how every great team builds it's foundation - to be able to win matches through both control and initiative. Which you choose to do more of them is up to the situation and preference of the manger. But these are basics and for some reason it's offending many. As if, possession play is some distasteful evil that must never be mentioned. We aren't Mourinho FC (I refer to his disdain for "pretty" football) this is Manchester United.
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I think we are missing too many easy chances of late so the OP has a point. On the other hand, I always felt in recent years that we were quite a clinical side and it made up, to an extent but not enough, for our lack of creativity.United xG = 24.34
United goals scored = 30
United fans = finishing is the problem
30 goals in 14 games is not a problem ffs. 15 goals in 6 CL games is not a problem.
I don't think Rashford is ever going to be the type of player who doesn't miss their fair share of sitters. Maybe he'll bring some composure into his game as he matures but it's not going to happen quickly. Just one of those where you have to accept his style of play will mean he misses more chances than a natural striker, but will probably create enough for himself to more than compensate.
I think the pace our attacking players do things at in general means they're always liable to cock things up a fair bit.
It's the final ball that's been annoying me more in the last couple of games. How many times today did we get into a really good position and then cock up a relatively simple pass? JHames did it, Rashford did it, Fernandes did it. We just need to get more of a balance between attacking at pace to open teams up but then taking enough care with the decisive ball rather than trying to rush it. There was one today where Rashford could have given it to either Martial or Fernandes, but somehow passed it in a massive hurry between Martial and James. We had a man over and he had so much time he could have literally stopped and thought about it if he wanted to. Another where both James and Fernandes were through and James, who's basically the fastest man in the world, tried to hurry the ball to Fernandes when they were still about 80 yards from the goal. He had time for an extra 2,3,4 touches if he wanted or he could have probably taken the defender out of the equation completely and squared it to Fernandes for a tap in.
I think the pace our attacking players do things at in general means they're always liable to cock things up a fair bit.
It's the final ball that's been annoying me more in the last couple of games. How many times today did we get into a really good position and then cock up a relatively simple pass? JHames did it, Rashford did it, Fernandes did it. We just need to get more of a balance between attacking at pace to open teams up but then taking enough care with the decisive ball rather than trying to rush it. There was one today where Rashford could have given it to either Martial or Fernandes, but somehow passed it in a massive hurry between Martial and James. We had a man over and he had so much time he could have literally stopped and thought about it if he wanted to. Another where both James and Fernandes were through and James, who's basically the fastest man in the world, tried to hurry the ball to Fernandes when they were still about 80 yards from the goal. He had time for an extra 2,3,4 touches if he wanted or he could have probably taken the defender out of the equation completely and squared it to Fernandes for a tap in.
Bruno Fernandes has the 6th most shots of any player in the league this season. With 19 shots he's scored 10 goals. He's the 5th top scorer in the league with 1 goal more than Harry Kane and 1 less than Vardy, Son and Calvert-Lewin. Vardy has also scored 2 more penalties than Fernandes with 6 to Bruno's 4
Where the likes of Martial and Greenwood have become less clinical, Bruno Fernandes and Cavani have improved us in front of goal. And thats why we are joint 2nd top goalscorers with a game in hand over Chelsea
The good part is Martial and Greenwood are likely to start scoring more, while Fernandes has been a productivity freak since he joined just under a year ago. So hes quite likely to keep being productive
Where the likes of Martial and Greenwood have become less clinical, Bruno Fernandes and Cavani have improved us in front of goal. And thats why we are joint 2nd top goalscorers with a game in hand over Chelsea
The good part is Martial and Greenwood are likely to start scoring more, while Fernandes has been a productivity freak since he joined just under a year ago. So hes quite likely to keep being productive
We scored 2 away from home. This should be more than enough to win the game. Missed chances happen.
There is nothing wrong with our finishing, we did score 2 field goals didn't we? You can't expect scoring 6 goals every game, particularly against good teams. Our problem is failing to park the bus even for 15min. Lapse of concentration at the back, during 1st 10min and at last 10min.
Rashford is 1 in 5 according to the numbers in his thread, not sure about Martial. The issue is more that I would much prefer to see us create 10 chances for him in a game rather than a handful of the odd chances here and there for random players all over the place. Repetition of scoring patterns would be the most effective outcome here in my opinion. We don't have proper wide players and we have 3 strikers fighting for the spot up front but also are our most effective wide players.
Ask yourself, when was the last time we had a period of sustained ability to just create easy and well structured scoring opportunities in a rhythm that helped us to securing points in the league. I feel like we have to go back to the post COVID lockdown period which is a hell of a long time ago in terms of the season.
Rashford miss against Chelsea when 1 on 1 with keeper still keeps replaying on my head.
You clearly don't remember the years when we had Scholes orchestrating our attacks from the middle of the park. We absolutely choked the lesser teams to death during that time. If that wasn't possession football, I don't know what is.
Of course we played more direct vs the better sides and that is something we are able to do pretty well right now too. But grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck vs the bottom half like the fergie sides would do, is something we still can't manage.
You are sounding like Steve Nicol from ESPN .
The reality is United are no longer title contenders, we are Arsenal of Wenger's ending years. As long as Glazers are sucking the club, our aim would be to get into champions league and finish top 4.I know you wish us to be as dominant as we were back then, and seems like some people are mistaking your "game control" with possession based football, but as long as our counter attacking system is working, we can't really complain. Our manager is a counter attacking one, we can't except him to become a someone versatile. Plus sacking him to get a "proper top class coach" is useless, because this club has regressed and that is the reality. Every manager will require atleast a good 3-5 years in this team. So either we sack Ole now and bring in a coach and give him 5 years without crying for title in first year itself, or let us give time to Ole, to get a squad he needs, to reach his system's peak.
Anyways the problem is not finishing in general, but lack of goals from players who were scoring last year, Martial and Greenwood, who had excellent seasons last year, need to step up now. Rashford always have had a sitter missing in him, but hope with time he shows more clinical finishing in tight matches.
If you take the big three leagues in Europe (the Premier League, La Liga and the Bundesliga) there are only 2 teams that have outscored United so far this season: Bayern Munich and Liverpool.
Our attack is fine. And it'll get even better with a more dominant midfield and defence to back it up. That's where the focus should be.
Our attack is fine. And it'll get even better with a more dominant midfield and defence to back it up. That's where the focus should be.
Of course we had more possession vs the weaker sides who sat back, that’s no different to now. The difference is the players we had back then were much better at it. We don’t have anyone with anything close to Scholes’ ability in that respect. And even then, we still played a predominantly direct game, as we do now.
We didn’t draw with Leicester because we didn’t retain enough possession, we drew because we were sloppy.
This is a very very simplistic take on things.
Let me give you an example:
Berbatov scored 21 goals in the Premier League in 2010/2011. Pretty great right? Great season, winning the golden boot. So all good with him?
The issue - He scored 21 goals in 9 games. Would you rather then have a striker that scores 15 goals in 12 games or 21 in 9?
Basic numbers don't tell the whole story and therefore context matters.
Stat padding against Leeds is one thing. Scoring a clutch goal in a decisive game in the (nascent) title race is even more important.
And for the love of God, please don't talk about Messi and Ronaldo here. They miss chances yes, but in the clutch moments when chances are few, they do take them. And our strikers aren't exactly matching their numbers are they?
We have a manager who was a very clinical striker. Surely he should be coaching one on ones and various ways of how to put the ball in the net. His favourite one was through the legs of the goalie. Why isnt this being implemented in training? Keeping the ball low 6-12 yards out will generally beat a goalie as he cant get down fast enough. Maybe its the player who panics into a snap shot. What I am saying this could be solved by coaching.
We are putting away 1 in 3 chances we get. That is good enough .
Our problems is at the other end. Our goals were preventable yesterday. Sort out our issues at the back and we can think about any sort of challenge!
Our problems is at the other end. Our goals were preventable yesterday. Sort out our issues at the back and we can think about any sort of challenge!
I feel a lot of people are pissed with the result, as we have beaten them 4 times in a row prior too yesterday and they haven't beaten us since the dark days of LVG in 2014, and we have won 9 and drew just 3 times in the years since and now (some) people are making out like we got a draw against 2010/11 prime Barca with the result.
Yeah we could score more, but the simple fact is with a tighter defence, this thread wouldn't exist. It needs to improve hugely.
We are miles better at beating a press than we were last season. We don’t have a central midfielder who can control the tempo of a game AND not be a liability defensively against good opposition. We are also terrible at switching play quickly. A left footed ball playing CB (with an actual outlet on the right wing) and a defensive playmaker will hopefully fix that. We’re a good to at times very good side who still have clear improvements to make. It’s a good thing.