I think maybe you and a lot of other posters are missing the mark here a bit. The contract doesn't give Ole security. It gives all the backroom staff security, and the players consistency.
Ole signs new contract
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I think maybe you and a lot of other posters are missing the mark here a bit. The contract doesn't give Ole security. It gives all the backroom staff security, and the players consistency.
I mean.. someone hired you?
Absolutely. And it gives them authority in the dressing room, which is vital.
To say he’s not even managed to win trophies in a low league the past 7 years is disingenuous when he’s been here for 3,5 years now.
Secondly, why did ALL other title contenders have shit years and not us? Can it be that we’ve showed some resilience and have had the right characters to fight our way through the toughest football season in damn near all our lifetimes? I get Klopp has proved more than Ole, but the one-sidedness in assessing this season by some is perplexing to me.
We're better than Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester, Arsenal I'd say. Liverpool missed all their CB's and some CDM's as well, terribly unlucky and they looked quite comfortably better as soon as they got some CB's.
We're better than Chelsea I'd say but their manager literally led them to a CL title. It is nothing really to be proud of, it wasnt good enough last season either despite 2nd.
Ah, this old chestnut.
Because that's how football works, every team is consistent year on year.
I wonder if Pep is sitting there saying 'that league title doesn't count because the other teams didn't get as many points as last year'...
Anything to not give Ole an ounce of praise...
Ah, this old chestnut.
Because that's how football works, every team is consistent year on year.
I wonder if Pep is sitting there saying 'that league title doesn't count because the other teams didn't get as many points as last year'...
Anything to not give Ole an ounce of praise...
I remember these people go "The gap to the top has increased from 32 to 33 points" last year. Guess that argument can't be used this summer, so...
This is used against Poch consistently on here...
How is it consider a potential employee's past disingenuous? It's completely plausible, seeing what a manager has achieved in the past can give you an idea of what to expect. I also didn't ignore his time here, that also has not been nearly good enough considering we are yet to win anything too.
All other title contenders had shite seasons, including us*. Corrected it for you. We came second and bottled every competition we competed in, despite spending more than any other team in Europe since he's come in. That is not a good season. Also I didn't make the Klopp comparison, the original poster did - I just outlined how different the circumstances were and why it was such a ridiculous comparison.
Ah, this old chestnut.
Because that's how football works, every team is consistent year on year.
I wonder if Pep is sitting there saying 'that league title doesn't count because the other teams didn't get as many points as last year'...
Anything to not give Ole an ounce of praise...
Teams don't need to be consistent, that completely misses the point of my post. The point accumulation required to come second in the league the previous years were 81 points, 97 points, 81 points and 86 points. In fact, going all the way back to the 14/15 season, we would have finished second only once with our point tally of 74 points and that was another anomaly of a season where fecking Leicester won the league and Arsenal came second.
That goes to show that regardless of what teams were consistent or not, it was very clearly a season where a lot of teams were playing below their capabilities, to somehow use that second place finish where for large parts of the season we were hardly convincing is clutching. It's the same as the Jose second place finish - you could see other teams were on the up and we were kinda just getting by, that's how I feel with this team at the moment.
We started the season well, City were struggling, Liverpool were fecked with injuries and Chelsea had a manager who wasn't good enough, Chelsea sacked their manager and since accumulated more points than us in that time, Liverpool starting getting players back and their football and performances were improving and City got their feet under them and ran away with the league.
If having a manager who has us playing pragmatic, very predictable football, with other teams getting their players back/hiring different managers etc. and accumulating more points than us, whilst playing more sustainable football isn't worrying to you, then all power to you, but I'm not going to blindly support the bloke cause he's a United legend. Couldn't give a shite about that when it comes to assessing him as a manager to be honest, he's been here since 2019 and so far has nothing to show for it but an over reliance on certain individuals and no silverware. He will rightfully get more time, but if he doesn't start performing soon, then he will need to go
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Yes this is also a good point.
I don't really see the big issue with him singing a new deal tbh. Going into next season with a year left on his contract wasn't going to benefit anybody. At least this brings more stability and shows he clearly has the support and backing of the Board/players.
Him singing a new deal isn't going to change his objectives and he'll still get the sack if he massively underachieves. Progression and improvements will be expected this coming season.
Him singing a new deal isn't going to change his objectives and he'll still get the sack if he massively underachieves. Progression and improvements will be expected this coming season.
I agree with this though tbf, even though I clearly have my opinions on him as our manager. He had a big time on his hands and it became clear very early on he was going to continue this season, having the contract dispute looming overhead doesn't benefit anybody. It's a big season for him and the club showing him that faith calms those discussions down so he can focus on the season. Hopefully he proves myself and the other doubters wrong with the show of faith
Because you took United and Cardiff years into account when talking about his trophyless stretch in a lower league? I’m not saying you’re wrong for taking history into account, I’m saying your record keeping is dodgy.
And ok, so everyone had shite seasons including us. So we’re all expected to do better this year, right? Including us? So we performed below what you expected of us last year? At any rate the assumption seems to be that we overperformed because others did poorly, or did you not mean to imply that?
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Or maybe these teams were playing to their level, which just so happens to be below our level.
Generally a whole season is a good barometer as to how good a team is, it just so happens that we were the second best team, something that hasn't happened often post Sir Alex.
But of course, that isn't down to the manager, it's down to other teams not being as good as us
Seriously, you should read back your posts too understand how ridiculous you sound right now!!
I guess Klopp doesn't have a reliance on VVD, or Pep on KDB, or Poch on Mbappe etc etc?!
Because his career involves more than just Cardiff and United, not sure what about that doesn't make sense. His only trophies despite plying his trade in 3 teams only came in a league of very poor quality, years ago, that was the initial point.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised to see us do better - but on the whole we were quite lucky with injuries when compared to Liverpool etc. - the middle to the end of the season began to turn against us, with our rivals around us accumulating more points and building some sustainable results. In fact, we heavily out performed our xG - finishing second when statistically going off xG we were 4th - behind Chelsea who for half the season were very average with Frank and a Liverpool side who were decimated by injuries. I really would not be surprised to see us be involved in another top 4 battle this season, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Guess we'll wait and see.
This thread becomes more and more funny
Our 2th place last season was a result of:
wasn’t a result of:
Other:
Our 2th place last season was a result of:
- Liverpool’s injuries
- Covid-19 - The other teams underperformed
- Lampard’s bad management
wasn’t a result of:
- Good work from Ole and the players
- Bad management from Kloop
Other:
- Ole’s good result in the beginning = honeymoon
- Tuchel’s good result in the same timeframe = good management
- Ole’s failure in final/semifinals = he is clueless tactically
- Tuchel’s failure in CL and league = [quiet]
- Our squad was good enough to fight for the trophy [wouldn’t be surprise if the same people want to offload Lingard, Martial, Mata, James, Bailly, Pereira and say Lindelof and McFred are ok squad players]
Or maybe these teams were playing to their level, which just so happens to be below our level.
Generally a whole season is a good barometer as to how good a team is, it just so happens that we were the second best team, something that hasn't happened often post Sir Alex.
But of course, that isn't down to the manager, it's down to other teams not being as good as us
Seriously, you should read back your posts too understand how ridiculous you sound right now!!
I guess Klopp doesn't have a reliance on VVD, or Pep on KDB, or Poch on Mbappe etc etc?!
No. Liverpool's level was highlighted only a year prior when they were breaking records in regards to point accumulation, you really don't have to go that far back to see what they can achieve with the same squad and manager, it was literally the season prior. Them being decimated by injuries is not a reliable illustration of what they are capable of - especially when you consider how fecking rubbish we looked when Rashford, Bruno and Maguire were out of the side.
A whole season is a good barometer, you're correct and we were the second best team in the premier league specifically last season, I never argued that fact. I simply said, it wasn't down to us having a good season or being convincing, there was a whole myriad of factors that went into last season. My argument is whether or not is is sustainable due to our footballing approach and performances.
Klopp does have a reliance on players, as does every manager in World football. The difference is, Klopp with his best players is winning Premier League and European Championships, breaking record point hauls, not getting knocked out of Europa League finals and finishing on point records that most seasons would get us third or fourth place without any silverware. It's not comparable.
This thread becomes more and more funny
Our 2th place last season was a result of:
- Liverpool’s injuries
- Covid-19 - The other teams underperformed
- Lampard’s bad management
wasn’t a result of:
- Good work from Ole and the players
- Bad management from Kloop
Other:
- Ole’s good result in the beginning = honeymoon
- Tuchel’s good result in the same timeframe = good management
- Ole’s failure in final/semifinals = he is clueless tactically
- Tuchel’s failure in CL and league = [quiet]
- Our squad was good enough to fight for the trophy [wouldn’t be surprise if the same people want to offload Lingard, Martial, Mata, James, Bailly, Pereira and say Lindelof and McFred are ok squad players]
That’s true. But technically people are right Jose was the better manager. More trophies and a better second place finish.
Your sentence was ambiguous, my bad for not spotting it earlier. It came across to me as if you were saying he’s had 7 years in a lower league without winning a trophy, not that some of those years were in a lower league.
And fair enough on that second paragraph. Though I think key personnel coming in and a way more cohesive squad is going to have us be more competitive than a lot of people think. We will see indeed.
Big season ahead for him. The team is there, now it's time to win something.
This thread becomes more and more funny
Our 2th place last season was a result of:
- Liverpool’s injuries
- Covid-19 - The other teams underperformed
- Lampard’s bad management
wasn’t a result of:
- Good work from Ole and the players
- Bad management from Kloop
Other:
- Ole’s good result in the beginning = honeymoon
- Tuchel’s good result in the same timeframe = good management
- Ole’s failure in final/semifinals = he is clueless tactically
- Tuchel’s failure in CL and league = [quiet]
- Our squad was good enough to fight for the trophy [wouldn’t be surprise if the same people want to offload Lingard, Martial, Mata, James, Bailly, Pereira and say Lindelof and McFred are ok squad players]
Very well out. it seems that covid only affected everyone expect United.
People make it out as injury caused Lfc to not fight for title yet forget we had season with Pogba out for most part, Shaw, Rashford and the like the year before and got top 4.
Alot of Ole outers are very hypocritical in their views.
I saw a clip on twitter from some fans who say, Varane is available go get him... same person now says.. United always go for big names..
That is where we at with some fans.
DDG
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
New DM
Bruno Pogba
Sancho Cavani Rashford
Bench: Henderson, Lindelof, Telles, Fred, Mctominay, Martial, Greenwood.AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
New DM
Bruno Pogba
Sancho Cavani Rashford
Squad options: Tuanzebe, Bailly, Jones, Lingard, Mata, Matic, VDB, Mengi and a whole host of other options.
For me, we need one further addition this summer, a new DM. Can it be done without selling Pogba to raise funds? Maybe, maybe not. But one way or another, even without a new DM, this squad is perfectly capable of challenging for the title. We have world-class players all over the pitch, a very strong and versatile bench, plus more squad options than you can shake a stick at.
Ole's had three years to build and coach the squad (the squad we have now is barely recognizable to Jose's squad) and he has been backed to the hilt by the board. It's now or never for him. If he can't produce the goods this season, then we have to find someone who will. No excuses.
No excuses now. Has to be competing for the big trophies this season with that squad.
Ya, apologies, the concept was more in relation to his performance over his whole managerial career. I also agree that we will be more competitive than a lot of people expect and by no means do I think he's a bad manager, he has his strengths: mainly man management and nullifying opponents which he seems to be very good at. I'm just worried that the level of coaching in Europe and in the EPL is of an extremely high standard, whilst also having very good squads so I'm not sure if it will be enough.
I'd love to be wrong though, the idea of having a club legend at the club, bringing success is the ideal scenario for everyone involved with the club, of course.
That being said, with Varane and Sancho, he now has a squad that I do believe should be genuinely competing for major honours, so let's see how he fares.
It's only not comparable because it doesn't fit with your reasoning!
United finished second, yet had injuries to deal with, yet no word of praise for a manager who has produced progress. Yet Klopp gets let off due to one player getting injured?
You say Liverpools level was last season? is it not just as easy to say that and the season before were outliers and they have now receeded to their normal level? I mean that would be probably more sensible to say, but of course that doesn't fit with your reasoning either.
I would say being unbeaten for the whole season away from home is pretty convincing, I would say being the second top goalscorers in the league is pretty convincing (despite having one striker carrying an injury and another being out injured for a large proportion of the league), I would say our record against the top six was pretty convincing.
I think you have to face it, Ole has shown progress since he took over as manager, baring in mind the state we were in when he took charge.
He needs that trophy to have something tangible to show for this progress, but then I'd wager if he did win a trophy this coming season, it would probably be down to other clubs not displaying their true level rather than United being a better team for you.
I agree that with our additions and a decent pre-season we should expect to see us land a trophy or challenge the league winners all the way. Here’s hoping!
Same difference
Great news.
Best nick we've been in on and off the pitch since the GOAT retired.
Best nick we've been in on and off the pitch since the GOAT retired.
It wasn't just one player injured for Klopp though, was it? It was ridiculous luck with injury, but sure, if you say so. No, it isn't as easy to just say that the past two seasons were an exception and a season where they were decimated by injuries and every team struggled due to Covid was their actual level. That's a silly statement. I'd argue no team played to their capability last season and you know that too.
You're throwing out pointless statistics to try and make our season sound better than it was, for every unbeaten away from home, we were shite at home, we were second top goal-scorers but severely overperformed in regards to xG, which had us 4th in the table - if anything your argument about receding to their normal level should apply to us, statistically speaking.
Nowhere have I suggested Ole hasn't made progress, that's a strawman argument. He has made progress, he's just imo not good enough as a head coach to be able to bridge the gap on our opposition - which can be justified by his managerial career. He has been in management the same time as Pep, this isn't a manager who is learning his approach and trade. He has an established style, this is it. He is a pragmatic coach. It's why our pressing is a fecking joke and completely unorganised, it's why our passes are very predictable, slow and laboured, it's why our movement off the ball is easy to pick up and identify etc. That being said, that approach has it's benefits, we are very good at nullifying opponents and hitting on the break, it seems to be our fecking speciality for years now, even pre-Ole.
There is good he's done, improved the mood and severely improved the quality of the squad being the main two, but over 3 years in, he now needs to deliver and given his track record, it's really not looking likely. He has a very poor history of success as a manager. All this talk from you about Klopp and Liverpool returning to their level, when in reality, what you perceived as a 'good' season, last season, is seemingly the exception for Ole who hasn't succeeded as a manager since 2013. People love the guy, he's a legend etc. I get it, but he's had a feck tonne of investments and time now, if he doesn't deliver this season, he's failed. I don't give a shite how happy the players look doing it.
Anyway, regardless of what someone's opinion is of Ole up until this point - whether it's been a success or failure is subjective. It's also irrelevant as regardless of someone's stance he is getting this season. It's also pointless to keep arguing as frankly these discussions never get anywhere and no-one ever really changes their mind. Either way, soon enough one of us will be proven correct, let's just hope it's you
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This season is Ole’s first real test.
How can you seriously say that that when we just had a historic season in terms of points won from losing positions?
Someone keeps earning his tagline in this thread.
I agree that was a good sign, and it shows the growing maturity of the team of which he has to take great credit. But if you look at the bigger matches, the Arsenal games, Chelsea at home (when we're in the ascendancy), City at home when they were there for the taking, PSG at home with Fred on a yellow and escaping a second yellow in the first half by the skin of his teeth (and subsequently leaving him on until he got sent off), how we set up against Leipzig and how we then proceeded not to change things when it was 100% playing into their hands. That's what comes to mind.
I'm sorry I'm not buying it. That Fred yellow wasn't even a foul. That VAR just slows things down and sees studs in the general vicinity of a leg and they just start handing cards is not on Ole or any sane manager. The rest yeah you're right, but it also had to do with us having had a terrible start to the season so points won against the likes of City and Chelsea in October were crucial. Also it showed how much other managers had started planning for us and set up to negate our play. You're completely right about the Leipzip thing though. I don't even know if blaming Ole is the right response though. I feel like he went with a back 5 specifically so AWB can stay with Angelino but he still somehow kept being caught too narrow.
Agreed.
But whether Ole succeeds in the pitch this season or not he needs to be given credit for the way he has rebuilt the squad these last three years, gotten rid of high wage flops like Sanchez, and massively increased the team’s fitness.
Ditto. Squad is in a much better position than it was under Jose.
It's not about being proven correct for me, it's about supporters of this club getting behind the manager and actually understanding that we finally seem to be on the right trajectory.It wasn't just one player injured for Klopp though, was it? It was ridiculous luck with injury, but sure, if you say so. No, it isn't as easy to just say that the past two seasons were an exception and a season where they were decimated by injuries and every team struggled due to Covid was their actual level. That's a silly statement. I'd argue no team played to their capability last season and you know that too.
You're throwing out pointless statistics to try and make our season sound better than it was, for every unbeaten away from home, we were shite at home, we were second top goal-scorers but severely overperformed in regards to xG, which had us 4th in the table - if anything your argument about receding to their normal level should apply to us, statistically speaking.
Nowhere have I suggested Ole hasn't made progress, that's a strawman argument. He has made progress, he's just imo not good enough as a head coach to be able to bridge the gap on our opposition - which can be justified by his managerial career. He has been in management the same time as Pep, this isn't a manager who is learning his approach and trade. He has an established style, this is it. He is a pragmatic coach. It's why our pressing is a fecking joke and completely unorganised, it's why our passes are very predictable, slow and laboured, it's why our movement off the ball is easy to pick up and identify etc. That being said, that approach has it's benefits, we are very good at nullifying opponents and hitting on the break, it seems to be our fecking speciality for years now, even pre-Ole.
There is good he's done, improved the mood and severely improved the quality of the squad being the main two, but over 3 years in, he now needs to deliver and given his track record, it's really not looking likely. He has a very poor history of success as a manager. All this talk from you about Klopp and Liverpool returning to their level, when in reality, what you perceived as a 'good' season, last season, is seemingly the exception for Ole who hasn't succeeded as a manager since 2013. People love the guy, he's a legend etc. I get it, but he's had a feck tonne of investments and time now, if he doesn't deliver this season, he's failed. I don't give a shite how happy the players look doing it.
Anyway, regardless of what someone's opinion is of Ole up until this point - whether it's been a success or failure is subjective. It's also irrelevant as regardless of someone's stance he is getting this season. It's also pointless to keep arguing as frankly these discussions never get anywhere and no-one ever really changes their mind. Either way, soon enough one of us will be proven correct, let's just hope it's you
A team can only beat whats put out in front of them, if that team isn't as good as the have been then that means we are a better team, and so deserve to finish above them. Strange to think otherwise.
I see it so often on here, it's people not willing to give our manager any credit whatsoever, and quite frankly it's embarrassing. That's not what supporters should be like. You can not like the manager or his decisions etc, but give the man some credit when it's fecking due!
We only over performed in XG last season due to the amount of penalties we received and scored. That had a big impact on that stat. Why did we receive so many penalties? Because we put the opposition under pressure, we got into dangerous areas and force the opposition back.
For every stat there needs to be context.
Again, it seems only stats apply to us and no one else.
Unfortunately for Ole, he didn't inherit the team that Pep did, Ole instead had to work his way up the chain rather than jump straight into Barcas first team. If he had, then who knows what would have happened.
Every ones entitled to their opinion, and I respect you have your own views. Just it's the same old arguments from his first season, 'he doesn't have any tactics,' or 'hes a counter attacking pragmatic pe teacher', both of which are inherently false and last season proved that.
Ole made mistakes last season, I'm sure he has learnt from them, bringing in the players we have shows he knows where our weaknesses are.
Anyway, Try to enjoy the season,
Until Ole wins his first trophy, people have every right to question if he is the right person for the job. Progress will only mean something if we have silverware next season
I just don't understand the logic. I read a Liverpool-fan yesterday saying United went unbeaten away because of the pandemic - and Liverpool lost 6 in a row at home for the same reason. But if that is the only reason - why didn't other teams go unbeaten away - and why didn't other teams lose 6 in a row ?
Don't get me wrong - I also believe it wouldn't have happened if there were crowds in the stadium - but it is still a huge achievment. No one else did it!
Don't get me wrong - I also believe it wouldn't have happened if there were crowds in the stadium - but it is still a huge achievment. No one else did it!
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