People don't talk about how we defend enough. We defend like a bunch of individuals. If our defense improves we will comfortably challenge even if our attack is all individual brilliance
Neville - ‘’no style of play’’
- Thread starter IrishRedDevil
- Start date
I just re-read what Neville said, and I tend to agree with him.
Ole has improved our mentality and we have bought better individuals, but he still has a way to go regarding implementing “styles” in every aspects of our play.
I use the term “styles” because I don’t think we are talking about one style of play. Certain parts of our play seems well planned (and conducted), example breakdown and established defence. On the contrary we struggle in example possession play against lowblock teams - as we always have done during Ole’s tenure. He have to fix this problem to stay in the title race, if not Ole will loose credibility and his job in the end of the season.
Ole has improved our mentality and we have bought better individuals, but he still has a way to go regarding implementing “styles” in every aspects of our play.
I use the term “styles” because I don’t think we are talking about one style of play. Certain parts of our play seems well planned (and conducted), example breakdown and established defence. On the contrary we struggle in example possession play against lowblock teams - as we always have done during Ole’s tenure. He have to fix this problem to stay in the title race, if not Ole will loose credibility and his job in the end of the season.
Fantastic, this is what we've restored to folks. If anyone dares to criticise Ole, pull up their old posts to 'show them up', so that any actual discussion is shut down. That nonsense should be confined to the echo chamber in the General.
Yep, it's overly simplistic to make broad statements about our play as if every aspect is of the same quality.
If you broke it up into different phases (build-up, progression, creation, high/mid/low block, attacking transition, defensive transition, attacking/defensive set-pieces) we'd be better (and seem better coached) at some aspects more than others, I think.
Its about displaying hypocrisy. On the one hand we have quotes from Varane praising our 'very detailed' training sessions. Completely ignored and passed off as PR because its not the message anyone wants. Now on the other hand we have some comments from a guy routinely criticised in his main thread, but now because he says something on message he's completely qualified to comment. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple.
You keep referring to that thread as an echo chamber. Its one thread, so I don't know why it upsets you so much, and it only exists because the entire football forum has become a much bigger example of an echo chamber that's there really nowhere else to go.
This. We don't defend as a team, if we would, we would have a...decent chance at the title due to our individual brilliance up front.
At Euro 1996 all the talk was about whether Cantona should be in the squad, and the resounding consensus was Djorkaeff would take up the mantle not Zidane. When Zidane was at Bordeaux his talents were appreciated but he was still seen as more of an enigma than anything. A little bit like Pogba really. It was Lippi who harnessed the genius of Zidane and made it work for a system, which is why by the time of France 98 Zidane had become the best player in the world (except Luiz Ronaldo).
Funny how both Pogba and Zidane found themselves in Turin...
That thread is an echo chamber whether you like it or not. It had good intentions at one point, and I remember a phase where I used to post in it the odd time, and found it amusing. Now though, it has attracted some less desirable posters and has become a snidey shit-show.
Look no further than that thread if you want to find hypocrisy paradise. All I see is bitching about the quality of posts, yet plenty from there come to Ole threads, throw in some smarmy bollox, and run a mile. Yeah, that's awesome and really conducive to good discussion.
All this nonsense of calling out posts is getting out of hand. Someone may have said in the past that Neville is an oracle, but finds this opinion bullshit; conversley, someone could have said he's clueless, but they agree with this opinion. What difference does it make, honestly? I can't imagine you would give a shit what posters previous views on him were had he of said that 'Ole is doing a great job'.
I think your views on Ole are honestly far too pro. Anytime it looks like you're going to critisise him, you throw in a caveat.
So following from this, perhaps the problem is that we need to hire additional coaches to address the areas which are lacking?
One of the features of the modern game is that the league winners tend to be incredibly dominant. That's why City, Chelsea and Liverpool have gotten 93 to 100 points in recent seasons. They overwhelm teams so much that the the 3 points is not in doubt. Certainly you look at City or Liverpool in their pomp a season or two back, and by half time they're 2-0 up, with 10 shots on target and 75% possession. Its no surprise they end up winning, its a one in a hundred shot to lose points from there.
At United we're always in these see-saw matches, which usually go our way, but not always. This season the Villa, Wolves and Southampton games could have ended up as just about any result. 3 wins, 3 losses, 3 draws, or any combination, none would be a surprise. Last season, christ, take your pick, we had shedloads of games where it was wide open and it took late goals, unlikely comebacks or screamers to unlock a game. But if you're in that position every week you'll get caught out in the end, which we do.
Not necessarily character but accountability. Why do you think Mctominay and Fred are trusted over Pogba in cm for instance?
Cantona after his suspension was offered the striking position, it wasn't a case of Zidane or Cantona because the former was Jacquet's man in preparation of the 1998 WC. Zidane was mainly playing alongside Djorkaeff and the remaining position was for Cantona but he allegedly declined. Zidane was not just appreciated he was seen as the future of France by Jacquet and he wasn't an enigma. What Lippi and Serie A did was to teach him tactical discipline which unlocked a part of his game that is underrated even today.
I appreciate the feedback. I think calling out posts is a great thing for this forum personally. Not from a bullying point of view or to make other people look like idiots, but I think in this day and age people should expect to be held accountable for things that they write online. Everybody is so quick to offer an opinion on everything and that is what causes these snowball dramatics. Its exhausting being a member here these days, it really is, and it just never stops. Anybody of that mind probably loves it, so fair fecks to you, but its not for me and a lot of people have had enough of it.
Re: Ole - yeah I'll throw in a caveat because I'm not ready to go all in on him yet. Maybe its my age, but I find it quite ridiculous to be getting the pitchforks out for a manager and a team that's barely gotten going yet and still well placed to achieve our expectations. I get that people are a little pissed off with our football at times. Does it warrant this? No it doesn't. To be frank the tone of this forum has reached AFTV levels nowadays and, similarly to how Arsenal fans feel about that, this has also become an embarrassing sh*tstain on the club IMO.
I think that you are wrong because it insinuates that people can't change their minds and adapt their thinking to new informations or context. If anything what you are describing as a good thing is one of the worst thing to happen recently, this strange idea that there is something righteous about having entrenched opinions.
Fair points, but I think you are giving people a little too much credit here. With respect, this isn't a meeting ground for brilliant minds that are using information to constantly re-evaluate their opinions. We've had this same constant Ole out thing for at least two years now. Same criticisms. Same positions taken. Same meltdowns after every football match.
We would be alright if we had a CM who was good at football. What id do for a prime Matic or Carrick right now.
Sometimes we look like we have a clear plan, so I think Ole has the ability to do it, it's just sometimes I think he leaves it up to the players and whilst that worked for Ferguson who had some of the best coaches in the business drilling the players into all the approaches, it doesn't work with this team and these coaches.
That's great and all; I find the whole calling out posts thing pretty sad, but hey, it is what it is. Maybe there's some extreme circumstances that warrant it, and some of it has been amusing. However, in a thread where there's rational debate going on, and someone comes in asking for posters previous on Neville to be called out, then that's a whole other thing. I mean, I've never once looked at a posters previous on a topic when debating with them... If something obvious came to mind, I would bring it up, but that's about it. I think this whole 'accountability' spiel all sounds a tad bit pretentious at this point. I'm sure loads from that General thread have some absolute gems in their post history. You say you want good debate, yet come into a thread with good debate, and post what you posted...
Nah, you don't always have to throw in a caveat, I'm not buying that, sorry. You can be critical in logical, non hyperbolic fashion. It doesn't always have to contain a caveat, that can often be construed as an excuse or blind optimism. Imo, it's no better than an 'out' poster starting a post with feint praise and signing off with Ole out. It's the lack of nuance that makes the Ole debate utterly ridiculous.
You could read a post on here claiming he's doing a fantastic job, only for the next post to call him a League 2 manager. The fact is, neither are true. If he were doing as good a job as some of you make out, then why are we talking about his credentials nearly 3 years in? Conversely, if he were doing a terrible job like some maintain, he would be gone. I mean you're too intelligent to believe that anyone who wants him out is a 'clueless idiot' etc. I know some genuinely hold that view, but it says more about them and their emotional intelligence tbh. The truth obviously lies in the middle, but the harsh reality is that he needs to deliver this season. Repeatedly shouting 2nd place, rebuild, semi finals, cultural reset, just won't cut it anymore. He absolutely needs to deliver now as he's had sufficient time and backing.
My expectations - which can be quoted away - was a title challenge and decent run in Europe this season. I came into the season with a huge air of positivity, but yeah I'm worried now. I'm not screaming for his sacking, as I think barring a major feck up, he should see out the season. However, my initial positivity is waning, as our performances have offered me little encouragement. We can spin the positivity meter to max, and talk about 1 point off the top etc. The reality is, it's only glossing over context and our generally poor performances. Can he still meet the fair expectations that have been placed upon him this season? He absolutely can, and maybe he will. But pretending the early signs aren't great, is being dishonest. As is playing down defeats with excuses or its only the LC etc. At the end of the day, you guarantee the same people saying it's only the LC, would have a very different tune had we won convincingly. The pressure appears to be building so the petty point scoring and micro analysis is well underway.
Regarding what Neville said: I happen to agree with the general premise of it. If you don't, and others don't, that's fair enough. I certainly wouldn't be pushing his opinion onto anyone, but at the same time, I would be bemused if people were hand-on-heart happy with how we play. I've seen some calling it buzzwords etc. but it's no different than the positive buzzwords such as 'rebuild' and 'cultural reset'. Neither side like when the other uses these phrase, but both do it. I've always found the general attitude by some towards the phrases 'patterns' or 'patterns of play' to be ridiculously childish. Yes, some talk through their arse when they say it, but others have posted very good, methodical posts about the phrase and it's definition. Of course, I'm sure they were scoffed at by the ones that have made up their minds that the phrase is for weirdos. That's the nature of this place these days, you can't discuss Ole with certain posters without passive aggression, insults or constant deflection. Despite that, there's good discussions to be had, even though some like to pretend it's all frothing at the mouth posters screaming for him to go. You seem to not like the hyperbole from one side only, but it's actually coming from both sides. If posters from both sides had their bullshit called out, it would make for far more interesting debate.
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I'd have zero problem with that as a solution.
It's basically what we did with set-pieces. We were obviously coaching them last season, it still wasn't good enough, so we brought in a new coach to focus on set-pieces and improve things beyond what our then coaching staff was capable of.
Even under SAF, he was happy to let the likes of Queiroz have big influence over the tactics we employed, do the tactical presentations and handle the actual training ground work with the players in terms of how we set up structurally or implemented whatever gameplan we had.
I don't see any reason Solskjaer couldn't bring in a new coach who is stronger on the technical details of implementing the broad style of play Solskjaer wants and leave him to it. Being able to identify talent and delegate to them is in itself a massive strength.
The only problem is it might be too late if this season goes bad. He's been here enough time already to know if he needed an upgrade in his coaching staff.
It's stupid. Maybe you don't see it that way but people can get offended by it and then someone makes a thread quoting all the people that supports Ole after we lose then the negativity increases
Lot to digest there, but I'll say good post and also point out (for what's its worth) that I've never had a problem with posters such as yourself that take the time to lay out how you are feeling. Its the posts that use tired and poorly thought out phrases along the lines of 'sh*t coaching' 'board are happy with top 4' or a bunch of these types of things that are just auto-ignore from me now. That's what is dragging this forum down, and I'll also point out that those aren't the types of posts that those threads are quoting. Its the pointless one-liners using over the top language that clog up the place and add nothing. (As an aside its not just me. Many of the older members that haven't already bailed by now seem to feel exactly the same way)
I'm aware that I can be a pompous arse on here sometimes. In reality I love talking about football with people that are passionate about their football team, and it feels like a chore on here so I'm pretty close to signing out for that reason. I want to enjoy the United journey and I do. I don't want to see our club being pulled apart by our own fans every single week that we don't smash someone. I'm not angry enough. For the record I do also agree with some of what Neville is saying but I think its being taken too far by fans that are desperate to have their opinion validated. Neville is paid to talk about matches, and he could very easily praise us one week and go the other way the next. I said in the summer that Ole needs to get out of the CL group. If we fail to do that his time should be up, but there's no way I'm going to lose my sh*t or write a season off in September. I've been around long enough to know that that's just bloody stupid.
I can honestly say I've never looked back at anyone's old posts, but I can't lie I do enjoy it when its done. Not because it upsets people. It just seems to me like a good counter-point to the dramatics we all have to suffer on here nowadays. Maybe I'm old school but I think people should own everything they write on here. If I can't think of anything better to type than 'Fred is literally the worst player I've ever seen' or some such then I won't bother posting anything. I've probably said some things on here in 17 years that would embarrass me, but I'm pretty sure I've put some thought into every post I've ever made.
Is Man Utd a fast food restaurant where adequate is sufficient?
The funny thing is, I just simply don't engage with the hyperbolic bullshit brigade from either side. The reason I initially quoted you was because you're definitely one of the good posters from the 'in' side. Maybe too pro-Ole imo, but you always offer a reasonable, articulated response and make your stance clear. The thing is, it's not great when the good posters from the 'in' side are now coming into threads, dropping bombs and leaving. You know you're better than that, and you could easily engage in some good debate in here. When that starts to happen, it just makes me feel that the divide will widen, and any hope of nuanced debate will die. I'm firmly an Ole doubter, but I really enjoy having a good debate about him.
I wholeheartedly agree with the shit posting element too. Some of the OTT reactions are insufferable. However, kudos to the mod team who seem be heavily cracking down on it. I honestly think there are some good posters that are too OTT, that might reflect more on their posting style with a warning. However, I think there's a new less desirable element from the General thread who are just as wummy as anything from the out crew, and aren't posting in good faith. The old crew in there are good folk, but I can't say the same about some of the newer arrivals in there. I know sometimes good posters end up so pissed off that they resort to fighting fire with fire. The problem is that it ends up looking hypocritical, if you see a post from them from a-few days previous saying all they want is good debate. If the shit posts keep being reported, and not engaged with, it would get a better handle on things.
I mean, we all just shoot the shit on here at the end of the day. We're all clueless in our own right, and I've been everything from a hypocrite to an utter bell end on here at times. But hey, that's just what happens. Sometimes though, it looks like certain posters feel they have an air of superiority due to their stance on Ole, but it's nonsense. I guess if posters could learn to reign it in a wee bit, it would make debate a-lot better. If things go south over the next few months, it would nice if there could be some semblance of reasoned debate, no matter what your stance is.
I do think most in here are agreeing with Neville in good faith. Maybe they were sick of being ridiculed for questioning our style of play and feel Neville highlighting it, gives them a platform to air their grievances with legitimate backing.
That's probably true. In all honesty I don't even really read threads properly that I know are going to be a sustained attack on the club. You and I are having a good conversation right now and that's great, but really there aren't that many posters here that are willing to do this or worth the time. Again, that sounds pompous, but to elaborate on that I'm someone who has seen enough seasons of United to realise that the panic we are seeing at this early stage of a season is just bonkers, and as much as we are always 1 game from a crisis we are also 1 game from real optimism and hope. Either way I'm going to enjoy the ride and the reason I dislike this forum so much now is because so many seem to be simply incapable of sharing that thought process, so we are never going to be near the same page. Its just something that comes over time I suppose.
My position - the team needs some work, its not as bad as is made out to be, I can't wait for the next game, and anyone who sounds like they actually dislike this club (ie a lot of this place) can do one.
Semantics. Adequate, fine, good, nice.
Didn’t he say he wanted to play “the United way” with fast attacking football and wingers that attack the fullbacks. Then he goes and buys a young winger but sticks Pogba out left.
Aye, that all sounds fair. I suppose my hope is that with all the really good proactive steps the mod team have been making, that some semblance of sanity is restored. It's the first time I've seen a real shift, and something being done about the incessant shit posting that is bringing down the quality of debates.
Were the 99 and 2008 teams that different? Drop a centre forward for a centre mid and I think they're quite similar. Obviously a totally different set of players so that will always bring some changes.
I'm not downplaying Fergie's tactical ability. I'm more saying as fans do we overthink this stuff? Spurred on to do so by a relentless pundit industry that has to come up with new material each week.
I think its much more simple. Your players ability dictate your style. If you have a pretty random collection of attributes, which we have, you'll get a pretty random, difficult to define style.
Top post.
Pretty my whole thought process.
Already have enough nutter mate United fans who text after every match where dropped points or maybe lost, zero context about any of the games, some don't even watch the match........but very quick to say it's onion and needs sacked. No middle ground, just usual samey samey quotes 'in over his head' or 'hasnt a clue'.
Being our most consistent manager in the league since Fergie, would clearly show he not in over his head, and does have a clue, but you still hear it.
And to them come on here and it's as extreme from game to game, with mostly the same folk who are giving it out, it's very tiresome to be honest, and as you say takes the enjoyment from it all.
It's feels like having a chat with a anti vaxxer covid denier at times.
Maybe we are just getting old and not cut out for it no more
Everyone has to remember it is a fact that United fans are spoilt by ridiculous success and, along with the players now pundits who played a part in that success, create a damaging negativity through their lack of perspective.
United are so much better than they were pretty much all of the time under Moyes, LVG and Mouriniho. The Leeds game alone was more goals in a single game than any United team under those 3 managed in 5 years.
But as Ole is finding out with progress and better players comes higher expectations and until we’re at the 1999, 2008 levels United fans won’t be satisfied (not that we should be anywhere near satisfied). But we still need to recognise the progress and not start creating a toxic atmosphere after our first league defeat.
United are so much better than they were pretty much all of the time under Moyes, LVG and Mouriniho. The Leeds game alone was more goals in a single game than any United team under those 3 managed in 5 years.
But as Ole is finding out with progress and better players comes higher expectations and until we’re at the 1999, 2008 levels United fans won’t be satisfied (not that we should be anywhere near satisfied). But we still need to recognise the progress and not start creating a toxic atmosphere after our first league defeat.
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They were wildly different!
The 1999 team was a 4-4-2 side through and through, playing high-tempo end-to-end football against pretty much everyone. David Beckham was possibly our most important attacking weapon - the 07/08 side didn't even have a player of similar style.
The 07/08 team was far more versatile, more capable of mixing it, and could even park the bus when needed. It was a lot more solid defensively, and the shape of the attack was drastically different to get the most out of Ronaldo.
Most United fans can name the best XI from the 98/99 season - you can't do the same for 07/08 because the composition of the midfield very much depended on who we were playing. We played a variety of different formations throughout the season to get the most out of the entire squad.
The XI everybody names only played one league game together that season. One in europe. Not as predictable as you might think.
'99 was a 442 team but like I said drop a forward and play an extra midfielder and you pretty much have the 08 team. Very similar ethos, way of playing. Still about getting it wide, good delivery, fast attacks, hard work. Back 4 set up very similar.
The extra midfielder in 08 gives you the option to control a game more but its not some monumental, deeply tactical shift. We didn't have a Becks in 08 but that doesn't mean it was a totally different set up.
This is what I mean by fans making too much of styles and tactics.
We're not great at passing the ball in the oppositions half. If anybody says the main reason for that is tactics they're over analysing.
It's because we have players who aren't very good at passing.
The bolded part sums up my feelings on Ole and is why I’ve always believed he would have been perfect as our director of football or sporting director instead of our head coach, he’s been great at changing the mentality and culture of the club but unfortunately as much as I love the man he isn’t a good enough coach let alone head coach so unless we go the ‘galactico’s’ route and rely on individual brilliance we won’t win things.
If people were describing the levels achieved & football played by City, Liverpool, Chelsea would adequate be the word they’d use?
Out of interest what do you like so much about the football played by Chelsea at the moment, what stands out to you as being enjoyable to watch and what are is their play style?
drop a CF to Centre mid and its 451. We even had Cantona playing also a SS for years and Scholes as a support striker and it was wildly different. Our wingers under 99 era were actual wingers and not wide forwards hence the likes of Rooney AND Ronaldo could score more than 20 goals a season at the same time. Also our CF in the 2008 era was interchangeable so again nothing like the 99 era. 2008 Carrick and Scholes were vastly different to 99 era Scholes and Keane.
SAF could successfully implement John Oshea as a CM
I also added levels achieved. For Chelsea the manager since taking over is getting more then the sums of its part out of his team.
Considering the quality & type of players have United should be 1) be title challengers (still to see) 2)playing fluid attacking football & actually looking like a technically proficient team.
So you like their champions league win? That’s a good reason to be fair.
what about how they play?