No that isn't what I think. Moving on...
Moyes So Far!
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No that isn't what I think. Moving on...
Saliph said that we should offload "Evra, Rio, Giggs, Valencia, Anderson, Young, and maybe Vidic" so yes, he more than implied that they shouldnt start games again.
Evra - leaving anyway
Rio - yep, too old, not the player he was
Giggs - yep, way too old
Young - yep, not good enough
Anderson - barely plays, no point in keeping him
Valencia - perhaps not yet, but needs to improve during the season. If he doesn't he should go.
Vidic - as I said it might be wise to keep him one more season, for his experience if nothing else.
Well I strongly disagree about Carrick as Ive personally always thought he has been heads above the rest our best midfielder, even between 09-11, but thats not a discussion for this thread so we'll just have to disagree about that.
Evra is kind of moot now as hes leaving anyway (as I just found out). Is there anyone on the market who can replace him? Our options within the squad are poor. We should really give Fabio plenty of chances this season so we will know if hes cut for the job next season or if we need to bring in someone else.
Carrick probably was our best midfielder, but he was still below par for a long time. Fletcher was ill, Anderson never developed, Scholes' legs had gone, he retired and came back, Cleverley was on loan, Hargreaves was crocked etc etc. It's a really odd set of circumstances for a club of our global standing to be going through at all, let alone for a couple of years!
Good team management right there. Lets offload all the experience and expect the new players (who are we even talking about here who is realistically available with the same or better quality?) to get off to a running start.
Rio and Vidic should be phased out gradually while still taking their part in training and as rotation so the up and coming CBs dont get knackered and suffer injuries, similarily to how Giggs and previously Scholes and Neville were phased out. This guarantees a smoother transition. Their experience is valuable in the dressing room. Rio especially seems to be a very important figure for the youngsters coming through the ranks in the club.
I agree that Young in particular and probably Anderson and Valencia as well can feck off though.
Giggs will probably become full time coach after this year, but who knows. Rio and Evra will not be here next year. Young is a waste of time and we could probably get a sum of money for him from somebody like Sunderland or West Ham. Anderson surely won't get another contract extension and will be in his final year next summer.
Valencia can be improved on but his ability to play full back helps him, and at the end of next season Vidic will be nearly 34. I don't think his qualities are irreplaceable, or at least as hard to find as Ferdinand's are.
He's hardly picked out Rooney or Van Persie. You can just look round the rest of the forum to find people doing that..
Is Ferdinand leaving for sure as well after this season? .....
Valencia's not been bad at all this season. I'd keep him as a squad player. Rio could be finished, but we've said that before and Vidic is still a long way off being done, even if he's past his best.
So aside from Evra, who might moving on anyway, I would agree that Anderson and Young could well find themselves at another club next season, or possibly in January. However, leave Giggsy alone, he can stay forever.
So aside from Evra, who might moving on anyway, I would agree that Anderson and Young could well find themselves at another club next season, or possibly in January. However, leave Giggsy alone, he can stay forever.
Ferdinand got a deserved one year extension last year. He'll have to get fit and show some form if he wants another one. He's been awful so far. Crap on the ball and sleeping without it.
I'm not nearly advocating offloading all the experience. Still plenty of experience in the team without Rio, Evra and Giggs (and the latter will probably take up a coaching position anyway). And their experience is not that useful if they're playing like shit.
Exactly, I never get this "United only won it because of how shit City and Chelsea were" argument, for much of the season we were on course for a record points total, it's total nonsense. We didn't play particularly well last season, but in terms of getting results the side was an absolute machine.
Exactly. People like to play down the quality of this team for some reason pretending it's an average side that overachieved last season when in fact we got 89 points while barely caring for the last 8 games or so. Also, we got 89 points the season before and lost the league on goal difference, we won the league the season before too. It's basically a side that in the last 3 seasons won the league with ease twice and lost marginally once with some players added, it's a great team.
I think the argument that the league was poor last year stems from both Chelsea and City having managerial problems and the dressing room unrest destabilizing both clubs in some way last season. I don't believe it was the reason we won the league last year because throughout the course of the season we were the best team, but the managerial problems at Chelsea and City increased our margin of victory.
You're disregarding a major potential factor: That Fergie did in fact get more out of this squad than anyone else could have. I say potential out of courtesy. Part of the revisionism which has characterized this place post Fergie completely disregards that many of the obvious problems we have at the moment were evident under Fergie as well: We didn't stroll through our games effortlessly last season. We had the exact same tendency to look stagnant and lost for ideas when we had to build up our attacks from scratch (rather then hitting our opponents on the counter). We looked equally vulnerable against any side that decided to press us up high. Our midfield was ran through even against supposedly inferior opposition. Our back four, as a unit, failed to defend highly enough. We even retained our habit from the season before last - of failing to kill off matches that were clearly there for the taking. All of this was present last season.
But last season we had Fergie in charge of a group of players to whom winning your regular league match was second nature: We just won, as we have so many times under the great man. We didn't impress anyone really, but we won. We had enough, all things said and done, to do just that. In many matches - especially during the first half of the season - that "enough" was Robin van Persie.
We do not have a starting XI that any idiot can steer comfortably to a top finish in the league. We lack something both here and there when our wide players aren't performing and our central midfield is what it is. Our defense is potentially a problem too if it turns out that what Moyes needs to do is to make Evans and Jones (or Smalling) gel as a new first choice pairing.
And then there's the basic set-up itself. It could very well be that Moyes needs to alter our very approach radically in order to make this particular group of players click. So far we have looked too often like Fergie's United without the Fergie factor. That is, at the moment, a team with huge question marks over it. It will take time - it's obvious. It will potentially take several reinforcements as well before we can field a top notch XI.
And what - or rather who - is the main reason behind this fact?
Good post. I agree.
You're making our team look like we are an inferior version of Stoke City, which I don't agree at all. But that wasn't my point.
My point was that you said that we won the league so easily only because our rivals were poor, which isn't true at all. We got 89 points and if we haven't had won it in April and/or that twat wouldn't have send us out of UCL which lowered our morale, we were on course for a record in EPL. Saying that we won because others were shit is a complete lie.
To Moyes, no-one is asking for him to win the league in the first season. It could be nice, but a bit difficult and everyone is prepared to give him time in order to achieve that. Though a decent challenge should be feasible.
This is a matter of degrees - unless anybody should misunderstand. Fergie didn't make a shite team overachieve. Nobody in his right mind would claim that. But if anyone seriously thinks our title challenge this season is mounted on the exact same premise as last season they are frankly naive. We are worse off, as we would have been regardless of who we might have hired. And every single one of our rivals, including a couple of teams that weren't really rivals last season, are - at the very least - potentially stronger. That doesn't mean we are doomed to finish in the bottom half. But it makes a difference.
This is nonsense. Are you claiming that our points total is proof positive that we had a top team last season? Read my other post, if you're interested. It's a matter of degrees, a shift of balance in the top - not a suggestion that we somehow magically managed to walk the league with a pub team. The points total of City and Chelsea respectively were under par, given both these sides' actual squads and their potential. I don't see how anyone can deny this. And even if they do, I don't see how they can blatantly disregard the possibility that these sides - and Arsenal, not to mention Spurs and even the dreaded scousers - are BETTER this season than they were last.
As I said regarding Moyes' comment: It's a simple point.
Has he fallen out with RVP? Or his training methods not helping him.
Probably resting him because he hasn't really been fit lately. Picked up that injury and he's been playing on an injury last few weeks.
Everyone knows the answer to that, but the question isn't why the squad won the title so emphatically last season, the question is why that same squad is currently eighth. You can't say the manager, and not the players, was the main reason for us winning the title last year and then by the same token decide that us doing poorly this season is all down to the players not and nothing to do with the new manager. Unfortunately for David Moyes we've all seen what this squad is capable of, and it's much more than what they've shown this season. For whatever reason, he isn't getting the best out of them, and ultimately that's what the job of a manager is. Now, one of those reasons could be that a few of these players have already given everything they have to give, it may be that some of them have taken the easy route and are slacking off and using SAF leaving as an excuse to do so, or it could just be that they've all lost a father figure and it's taking them time to adjust, but whatever the reasons are, it is Moyes' job to get them performing because the reason isn't that the players aren't good enough, because this squad is more than good enough to beat West Brom and Southampton at home and challenge for the title, we know it is because the previous manager got them doing it. Obviously it could take time, but if Moyes doesn't show signs of improvement by the end of the season I'm not sure he'll get it, and I'm not even sure he'll deserve to either. Anyway, screw this, we're going to smash Sociedad, I can feel it, our season starts now...maybe.
He had a calf injury when he came back from international duty, had a toe problem as well before that. Probably a big argument about how shit Moyes is though.
Jeez! This forum is just so full of joy!
The pictures from yesterday's training, where he was apparently talking to Moyes for a long time were strange.
Weird that the hands on coach of Manchester United would have a long conversation with a senior player who has a history of picking up bad injuries before deciding to rest him. Yep, that's the strangest thing I've heard in a while.
On a boring note you more or less answered your own question. Or, you didn't. But you suggested that this question cannot possibly be answered at such an early stage. Which is my one and only point, really. If we are still looking shite, no signs of improvement, lingering down in the company of Stoke and whatstheirfaces come May - then we need to ask some heavy, heavy questions. Sure.
But now. It's Europe. And I'm bloody excited about tonight. I have a good feeling about this match, actually.
One of the main reasons why were are so badly off this year is that teams smell weakness and are coming and really pressing us. Until we start punishing them for doing that using quick one touch football exploiting gaps left when they press we will continue to drop points.
Like the team we have picked tonight. We have kept the same back four, included players who need games(Hernandez and Kagawa) and more than enough experience and big players to win tonight(Rooney, Carrick, Giggs). I think Giggs is a good choice tonight with Carrick, although he is always hit or miss in the centre.
We need a win and a good performance.
We need a win and a good performance.
Like you I'm happy with the team selection. I would prefer to see Giggs being put out to stud in Manchester but still all in all it's a good quick side.
I was happy with the 11 on Saturday too though but some of the subs were bonkers.
Oh yes, come on feel the Moyes.
He impressed me tonight, I was all but admonishing him when I saw Smalling coming on, I had a feeling of dread he was trying to close the game out on 60 minutes. Somehow I had convinced myself he was coming on for Kagawa :-/ when it was to protect us and Rafael from a sending off it reminded me of Ferguson. The Young sub and sending Kagawa central should have seen us kill the game on more than a couple of occasions but it was not to be, at some point though we will click and someone will be run over. Very impressed tonight with his handling of selections and tactics, even playing Giggs was a risk and David Moyes does not take risks does he
Feel the Moyesture.
Subs have been a weakness for him till tonight. Nobody would have been jumping out of their seats to see Smalling and Young limbering up but both were spot on changes and had a big effect on the game. Little steps, men.
The Smalling sub was bang on.
The Young one I could've done without seeing, but no doubt if RvP was on the bench he would've got the nod.
The Young one I could've done without seeing, but no doubt if RvP was on the bench he would've got the nod.
Im tired of people talking about him likes he's a complete novice that is just learning how to do basic things. He didnt win a bloody raffle, he was always in the running and was fergusons choice as well as 2 time PFA manager of the year. Its talking a bit of time to get us up and running but thats not neccesarily due to his ability.
The Young sub was good too. We played more down the middle when he came on, I thought. Hernández had to be taken off, he was disappointing in the second half unfortunately.
I loved the Young sub because it meant Kagawa could play in behind Rooney. It is the happiest I've ever been at seeing Ashley Young on the pitch.
Doing great in Europe and poor domestically.
Did not see that coming!
Did not see that coming!
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