Moyes So Far!

[AngeloHenriquez]

You think they're all at the level that they were in 08? Now that is ridiculous. Ferdinand was probably the best defender in the world that season.

I think his point is that they don't need to be 2008 form to be very good players, Ferdinand/ Vidic and Carrick all have more than a place in our squad, if you genuinely believe Carrick shouldn't be part of our XI, I guess the problems won't be resolved over an internet forum.....

In regards to Giggs, he has much more of a point, but everyone knew that already, Vidic and Ferdinand aren't at the level of 2008 either, correct, but they are still very good CB's and to think otherwise is wrong, does it mean they are perfect? Or near that god form that made them so brilliant? No, but they are both currently more than good enough.

I think you can all see what MoneyMay is trying to say..

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Arrogance is underrated.

The logic is sound, I have no idea what you're talking about. Of course they can have good seasons (certainly wouldn't call them excellent, with the possible exception of Carrick) without being as good as they were. But in any case that's not the point I was making, which was that right now they're far off from where they were, and none of them have been adequately replaced (nor has Scholes for that matter). And they're not getting any younger.

So is every player in our squad, get rid of them all? It's form and you know it, no one has started brilliantly, but Carrick, Ferdinand and Vidic all should be regular squad members, if not starting XI, especially Carrick. Giggs is the only one for me your claims half merit, but I wouldn't say he is a starting XI under Moyes... Please feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Moyes' point - as regards what is being discussed here - was very simple: Our rivals weren't great last season. Meaning that winning the league at a canter shouldn't fool anyone into thinking we have a flawless team. It's a simple point and it's not an outrageous point of view at all.

We can discuss to Kingdom come whether he should be making such statements in public - but the opinion itself is shared by many United fans, and was voiced frequently last season - also by people who are now highly impatient with Moyes.

 

[MoneyMay]

Arrogance is underrated.

The logic is sound, I have no idea what you're talking about. Of course they can have good seasons (certainly wouldn't call them excellent, with the possible exception of Carrick) without being as good as they were. But in any case that's not the point I was making, which was that right now they're far off from where they were, and none of them have been adequately replaced. And they're not getting any younger.

No, your logic is far off and it seems pretty juvenile. Read over the point you made again. According to you, because they're not "... close to the level they were in '08..." they shouldn't be considered part of our first team. That is ridiculous because, as I said, Carrick had two excellent seasons after, Ferdinand was excellent in 10/11, 11/12, and 12/13 - some even said that 12/13 was his best season. Whether you agree with that or not, is up to you. Vidic was a beast and the best defender in 10/11. He was also crucial to the stability of our defence in the second half of 12/13. The only two I agree with are Evra and Giggs. Evra was very good in 09/10 and 12/13, but in between that, he was a liability.

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven. And none of their would-be replacements are in the same class as they were. Add to that that we've lost players like Scholes and Ronaldo in the meantime and the picture gets grimmer.

You think they're all at the level that they were in 08? Now that is ridiculous. Ferdinand was probably the best defender in the world that season.

No, I don't think that at all. What I find ridiculous is this notion that because one isn't close to previous level, they shouldn't be in our first team. Thankfully, managers view it differently, hence Evra was first team even though he was average in 10/11 and first half of 11/12.

 

[fergieisold]

People actually think Ole would be a better candidate?

Molde are 5th in the Norweign league ffs, won 11 of 27 games.

He's won the title there 2 years in a row.

 

[LR7]

Was it ever confirmed that the two of them met in New York?

I'm pretty sure I remember Fergie admitting they went for dinner out there, when he went to visit his son.

 

[Bross]

Its ludicrous to even consider that Moyes has inherited a poor squad or that parts of it is "a shower of shite" (absolutely laughable tbh )

We won the league last year, and we outplayed one of top 5 teams in the world in the CL, only going out thanks to a retarded referee.

To say with such certainty that the exact same players have now degraded into a squad that cant be expected to challenge for the title is obviously wrong. Players dont suddenly become a lot worse just because they are a year older. Its a gradual change, and while we can expect players like Evra, RVP, Carrick and Rio to become worse over the next few years as their physical attributes wane, there is no logical reason for offloading them now, seeing as they all had very good seasons last year. Our squad is pretty damn good. It can be argued that we arent quite where we should be to challenge on all fronts, but we should be expected to make the top 4 at least. Anything else is a poor performance by both the players and the manager.

People are making too big excuses for Moyes. We shouldnt expect him to walk in and challenge for the CL and win the PL in his first season. That is too high expectations for a manager who is working with a completely new squad and vice versa for the players who have to work with a new manager with new ideas, training methods and football philosophy. But on the other hand we cant disregard the fact that he inherited an excellent squad bar depth in CM (injury to Carrick and we are fecked) and that he has underperformed so far with the squad at hand.

 

[MoneyMay]

I think his point is that they don't need to be 2008 form to be very good players, Ferdinand/ Vidic and Carrick all have more than a place in our squad, if you genuinely believe Carrick shouldn't be part of our XI, I guess the problems won't be resolved over an internet forum.....

In regards to Giggs, he has much more of a point, but everyone knew that already, Vidic and Ferdinand aren't at the level of 2008 either, correct, but they are still very good CB's and to think otherwise is wrong, does it mean they are perfect? Or near that god form that made them so brilliant? No, but they are both currently more than good enough.

I think you can all see what MoneyMay is trying to say..

Yeah, that's what I meant. I mean, to disregard Vidic and Ferdinand's season in 10/11 is ludicrous. All of them haven't been painfully average since '08.

 

[Bross]

People actually think Ole would be a better candidate?

Molde are 5th in the Norweign league ffs, won 11 of 27 games.

2 league titles and one 5th place (and in great form before the last few rounds) from 3 seasons is very good. Not saying Ole is ready for the United job yet - hes far from it - but he has shown very promising signs at Molde.

The only negative has been the complete collapse at the start of this season, where they didnt win until the 8th game, but on the other hand he's shown that hes able to work himself out of a rut like that as Molde has been the best team for the latter half of the season.

 

[Eyepopper]

Ole is nowhere near ready to manage a top club.

And people say Moyes doesn't have the required experience.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I think his point is that they don't need to be 2008 form to be very good players, Ferdinand/ Vidic and Carrick all have more than a place in our squad, if you genuinely believe Carrick shouldn't be part of our XI, I guess the problems won't be resolved over an internet forum.....

In regards to Giggs, he has much more of a point, but everyone knew that already, Vidic and Ferdinand aren't at the level of 2008 either, correct, but they are still very good CB's and to think otherwise is wrong, does it mean they are perfect? Or near that god form that made them so brilliant? No, but they are both currently more than good enough.

I think you can all see what MoneyMay is trying to say..

His reaction to Saliph saying that they're not the players they used to be was stupid, because they're not. That is all he was pointing out. His post has more than enough credibility to be labelled "one of the worsts posts ever."

Due to the loss of experience and the staggered level of development amongst the younger players, we're clearly not the force we were 4 years ago, with or without Ferguson. I don't think we're as far away as some people on the board think, though

 

[MoneyMay]

His reaction to Saliph saying that they're not the players they used to be was stupid, because they're not. That is all he was pointing out. His post has more than enough credibility to be labelled "one of the worsts posts ever."

Due to the loss of experience and the staggered level of development amongst the younger players, we're clearly not the force we were 4 years ago, with or without Ferguson. I don't think we're as far away as some people on the board think, though

Maybe if you read my last post, you'll understand why his post was ridiculous. Just because a player isn't at a previous level, doesn't mean they should not be considered first team. Do you know how juvenile that sounds? And again, three (arguably four) of them have had at least two great seasons since then.

 

[Saliph]

So is every player in our squad, get rid of them all? It's form and you know it, no one has started brilliantly, but Carrick, Ferdinand and Vidic all should be regular squad members, if not starting XI, especially Carrick. Giggs is the only one for me your claims half merit, but I wouldn't say he is a starting XI under Moyes... Please feel free to prove me wrong.

It's form for some, others are on the decline (and have been for a while). In defense at least an honest attempt has been made with the acquisitions of Smalling, Jones and Büttner, but in midfield we've done feck all for years now (barring Fellaini who is plainly not good enough for our starting XI (and I don't see how he'll ever be), at best he'll be (or should be) a squad player) despite the need for new players being painfully obvious to everyone. Rio is 35 and injured a lot, Vidic is 32 and injured a lot, Evra is 32 and leaving after the season, Carrick is 32. We have a massive cleanout ahead of us if we want to aspire to be the best in Europe (as we should).

 

[Eyepopper]

Vidic is the new Rio, Rio is the new Neville.

Maybe not quite but it's not going to be long.

Evans should start as many games as possible, partner Vidic against the big teams and Jones/Smalling where possible.

Rio and Vidic shouldn't start together.

 

[Saliph]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I mean, to disregard Vidic and Ferdinand's season in 10/11 is ludicrous. All of them haven't been painfully average since '08.

I never did that, and I never said that. That's just your own twisted imagination at work, and your inability to accurately interpret what you're reading.

 

[MoneyMay]

Yeah, sure you didn't. Let's look at that part again:

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven. And none of their would-be replacements are in the same class as they were. Add to that that we've lost players like Scholes and Ronaldo in the meantime and the picture gets grimmer.

No mention of the great seasons they've had since then. Nice one.

 

[#07]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/23/david-moyes-manchester-united-bad-start?

Quite negative, but I can't really argue with any of it, except the coaching comment, managers take coaches with them all the time, it's to do with trust, not because they think they're the best coaches in the world. Although in saying that, I still think when you come into a club that has won five in seven league titles it would probably be a good idea to at least take some time to evaluate the staff and perhaps even enter the job with an open mindedness to learn new ideas.

100 per cent agree with this.

Ole and Gary Neville...I would be confident.

But seriously, we have no choice but to stick by Moyes for a couple of seasons at least.

What makes Ole a better manager than Moyes? Completely unproven and hasn't exactly pulled up trees with Molde.

The difference is like Conte at Juve or Guardiola at Barcelona we're talking about a club legend (or two if Red Nev's involved). Someone who walks into the dressing room and commands the respect. Fabregas said he was close to tears when Guardiola gave him the number 4 shirt cos he idolised him as a kid, you can't manufacture that. If you have a club legend like Ole in the dressing room, a proven winner, and someone who gets respect before even speaking you're ahead before you even begin. A point the Guardian article is making when it says Moyes is an unproven quality trying to convince a team of serial winners. Not easy, especially when Moyes keeps talking down our chances.

 

[Saliph]

Yeah, sure you didn't. Let's look at that part again:



No mention of the great seasons they've had since then. Nice one.

You're right, I should've anticipated that a nitwit would respond to that post with feverish idiocy, and made it clear that I don't think they've been all bad every single season or every single game since '08.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Its ludicrous to even consider that Moyes has inherited a poor squad or that parts of it is "a shower of shite" (absolutely laughable tbh )

We won the league last year, and we outplayed one of top 5 teams in the world in the CL, only going out thanks to a retarded referee.

To say with such certainty that the exact same players have now degraded into a squad that cant be expected to challenge for the title is obviously wrong. Players dont suddenly become a lot worse just because they are a year older. Its a gradual change, and while we can expect players like Evra, RVP, Carrick and Rio to become worse over the next few years as their physical attributes wane, there is no logical reason for offloading them now, seeing as they all had very good seasons last year. Our squad is pretty damn good. It can be argued that we arent quite where we should be to challenge on all fronts, but we should be expected to make the top 4 at least. Anything else is a poor performance by both the players and the manager.

People are making too big excuses for Moyes. We shouldnt expect him to walk in and challenge for the CL and win the PL in his first season. That is too high expectations for a manager who is working with a completely new squad and vice versa for the players who have to work with a new manager with new ideas, training methods and football philosophy. But on the other hand we cant disregard the fact that he inherited an excellent squad bar depth in CM (injury to Carrick and we are fecked) and that he has underperformed so far with the squad at hand.

I think we all agree that WE - the team as such, both manager and players - have underperformed so far in the sense that the players are obviously capable of better performances. However, there are question marks over several of these players. Rio, who has been immensely important for us, is at a stage in his career where he could plausibly be close to "doing a Neville". Vidic is another player whose status - for me, at least - is very uncertain at the moment. That's the core of our defence. right there. We have an excellent offensive LB in Evra - but in the same Evra we have a player who is getting on in years and who is anything but rock solid defensively. And a player whose United days will be numbered at the end of the season at that. Obviously a Fergie player - and not a Moyes one. And then there's the infamous CM situation. My stance is that Fergie managed to gloriously overachieve in that department. We need serious reinforcements in the middle. And Moyes is not Fergie. Any other manager would find himself in a bit of a pickle, having ONE really good and reliable central midfielder - and he is no spring chicken either.

He managed to get in Fellaini - who has had a poor start, and who was not his main CM target. I'm 100% certain he is still looking to get in further reinforcements, including a truly top class player. Yes, it's an excuse - but I personally think it's a valid one. We don't even know to what extent the failure to land that big CM target is his fault.

 

[MoneyMay]

You're right, I should've anticipated that an idiot would respond to that post with feverish idiocy, and made it clear that I don't think they've been all bad every single season or every single game since '08.

Really, Saliph? More insults. I suppose that's what to expect from you. Maybe highlighting it for you one more time might make you see why you're wrong and how logic like this is puerile. So because they're not close to a previous level, they shouldn't be considered in our best level. I think you'll find that's the definition of idiocy.

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven. And none of their would-be replacements are in the same class as they were. Add to that that we've lost players like Scholes and Ronaldo in the meantime and the picture gets grimmer.

 

[Saliph]

Really, Saliph? More insults. I suppose that's what to expect from you. Maybe highlighting it for you one more time might make you see why you're wrong and how logic like this is puerile. So because they're not close to a previous level, they shouldn't be considered in our best level. I think you'll find that's the definition of idiocy.

Seek help.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

You're right, I should've anticipated that an idiot would respond to that post with feverish idiocy, and made it clear that I don't think they've been all bad every single season or every single gamesince '08.

Really, Saliph? More insults. I suppose that's what to expect from you. Maybe highlighting it for you one more time might make you see why you're wrong and how logic like this is puerile. So because they're not close to a previous level, they shouldn't be considered in our best level. I think you'll find that's the definition of idiocy.

Take it to private, no one cares for the semantics of a pointless conversation, it's getting petty guys.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Maybe if you read my last post, you'll understand why his post was ridiculous. Just because a player isn't at a previous level, doesn't mean they should not be considered first team. Do you know how juvenile that sounds? And again, three (arguably four) of them have had at least two great seasons since then.

Yeah I read it. Still think you're wrong and there's nothing "juvenile" about suggesting a sustained drop in form from players in their 30's should be questioned. Ferdinand has shown glimpses of quality when used sparingly and 100% fresh. By very definition of it he's not a first team regular if he can't keep fit for the season, and his form this season has been appalling.

Vidic has been solid enough bar the odd mistake but I still don't think he's as good as he was in '08.

Since you're so keen to cite good seasons, what about Carrick and Evra's very noticeable drop in form in recent seasons? Evra probably due to losing some physical capabilities and Carrick looking completely shot of confidence. If they're all still in the team as definite starters it means our levels have dropped drastically.

He said we need 2 CM's, a quality winger, a LB and possibly a CB next season. I agree with him on those things. Evans should be playing every week on current form and one of Smalling or Jones should get more time there too.

 

[MoneyMay]

Take it to private, no one cares for the semantics of a pointless conversation, it's getting petty guys.

Yeah, I'm trying to debate a point. Would help if there weren't any insults, but you're right. It's become pointless now, even though a couple have acknowledged the flawed logic he used.

Was reading this: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/23/david-moyes-manchester-united-bad-start

The final paragraph was interesting:

By no measure is the current United squad one of the club's finest, but the fact remains that it secured last season's title before the end of April and contains a goodly number of players still improving. Consequently, Moyes's lack of respect for its credentials served only to suggest his own shortcomings, because ultimately, there are only three differences between this season's United and last: a player signed by David Moyes, men employed by David Moyes and David Moyes.

How many people expected this?

 

[Kaos]

I don't see much wrong with what Saliph's said.

Its hardly a secret that we have an ageing squad and honestly speaking not many of us would disagree with our squad being a tad bit weaker than the top tier elites of Europe. Moyes is unlucky in the sense that he's inherited a side which perhaps was overachieving on account of being motivated by the greatest manager that ever lived, unfortunately I don't think he's capable of achieving the same level of success without rebuilding the squad.

The only thing I'd disagree with there is the drastic number of signings needed. I'd by all means get rid of deadwood like Young and Anderson, but I'd be happy to keep the rest as squad players. Honestly, I think we're only a CM (or two) and LB signing away from being a genuine title-challenging side.

 

[MoneyMay]

Yeah I read it. Still think you're wrong and there's nothing "juvenile" about suggesting a sustained drop in form from players in their 30's should be questioned. Ferdinand has shown glimpses of quality when used sparingly and 100% fresh. By very definition of it he's not a first team regular if he can't keep fit for the season, and his form this season has been appalling.

Vidic has been solid enough bar the odd mistake but I still don't think he's as good as he was in '08.

Since you're so keen to cite good seasons, what about Carrick and Evra's very noticeable drop in form in recent seasons? Evra probably due to losing some physical capabilities and Carrick looking completely shot of confidence. If they're all still in the team as definite starters it means our levels have dropped drastically.

He said we need 2 CM's, a quality winger, a LB and possibly a CB next season. I agree with him on those things. Evans should be playing every week on current form and one of Smalling or Jones should get more time there too.

I'm not going to go through the language factor again because it's clear that it's a knee-jerk reaction that is flawed. Some maybe aren't at the level of 2008, but they have been responsible for us winning titles in subsequent seasons.

Vidic's last consistent spell was in 10/11. He's definitely not as good, but this point can be used for other players too.

Carrick was poor in 09/10, that was his last consistent run of poor performances. In 10/11, he was very good in the second half of the season. In 11/12, he was our best midfielder. In 12/13, again, the same applies. His defensive skills have arguably improved. Do you know see that it goes further than previous level? These players have put in excellent work in the subsequent seasons and to suggest that they shouldn't be considered in the starting eleven is idiocy. For a start, is that what Fergie thought last season with Ferdinand? Did Fergie think this in 11/12 when Evra was shockingly horrible in the previous season? Did Fergie sell Carrick? It's ridiculous.

 

[Revan]

Be honest - Would any of you swap Klopp for Moyes right now??

Would also volunteer to drive him from Dortmund to Manchester. Klopp is my dream manager and is definitely on top 3 in the world, while having by far the most beautiful way of playing football.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah, I'm trying to debate a point. Would help if there weren't any insults, but you're right. It's become pointless now, even though a couple have acknowledged the flawed logic he used.

Was reading this: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/23/david-moyes-manchester-united-bad-start

The final paragraph was interesting:



How many people expected this?

That's one way of putting it. There is one truly immense difference from last season. And we all know what that is. Downplaying this in order to make Moyes' task look easier than it is - is either wrong or dishonest. And the "title wrapped up in April" argument is as lazy as they come. Is it not a facht that both Chelsea and City made our job relatively easy last season? I'd say it is.

 

[#07]

Yeah, I'm trying to debate a point. Would help if there weren't any insults, but you're right. It's become pointless now, even though a couple have acknowledged the flawed logic he used.

Was reading this: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/23/david-moyes-manchester-united-bad-start

The final paragraph was interesting:



How many people expected this?

Not an inkling. Moyes' overall tone has struck me as bizarre at times. The way he's talked down the squad, downplayed our chances of major honours, complained about tough games...its all struck me as the comments of a man who simply doesn't believe in the team he's got and I find that bizarre. The body language of the players suggests they believe that too. People say the players have let Moyes down but, anyone in any workplace will agree that if you have a boss that encourages you and gives you confidence is more likely to see your best than the opposite. Moyes has not only done the wrong things, he's said the wrong things too.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Yeah, I'm trying to debate a point. Would help if there weren't any insults, but you're right. It's become pointless now, even though a couple have acknowledged the flawed logic he used.

Was reading this: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/oct/23/david-moyes-manchester-united-bad-start

The final paragraph was interesting:



How many people expected this?

Yea I think bottom line is, he has a squad with talent that amounts to higher than 8th place, which we currently reside, can I ask though, what did people think we would get from our Opening games points wise? I don't suppose we are too far from that and there are so many reasons that attribute to that including things that are beyond DM's control such as luck to a degree where games are won by such fine margins. There are positives, fielding Januzaj and Nani for one, but for every good decision, I can equally hold against him strange substitutions and passive/negative tactics that we as Utd fans have never come to accept, whether its 90mins or 3 mins in, we always believe that we have a chance or should be looking to get back into it, and I suppose I see what DM did there as slightly defeatist... However, had it held out for a 1-0 win, perhaps some may have been pleased and I can see the tactical reasons behind that, but I'd rather at all times we attack, it's the best form of defense.

All in all though, I'll wait until January as his first competitive match was only 2 months ago and we've had international breaks during that... I'll give him a bit longer

 

[Revan]

Moyes' point - as regards what is being discussed here - was very simple: Our rivals weren't great last season. Meaning that winning the league at a canter shouldn't fool anyone into thinking we have a flawless team. It's a simple point and it's not an outrageous point of view at all.

89 points would win you the league 8 or 9 times from 10. Add to that, we could have won 2-5 more points if we were a bit more concentrated in the end. So even if our rivals weren't on form is completely insignificant considering that we got enough points to win the league in most situation.

Unless you're saying that the entire Premier League wasn't in right level last year, that's something else, but we laughed for a few years with RAWK for saying that we only win the league becase the league is poor.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I'm not going to go through the language factor again because it's clear that it's a knee-jerk reaction that is flawed. Some maybe aren't at the level of 2008, but they have been responsible for us winning titles in subsequent seasons.

Vidic's last consistent spell was in 10/11. He's definitely not as good, but this point can be used for other players too.

Carrick was poor in 09/10, that was his last consistent run of poor performances. In 10/11, he was very good in the second half of the season. In 11/12, he was our best midfielder. In 12/13, again, the same applies. His defensive skills have arguably improved. Do you know see that it goes further than previous level? These players have put in excellent work in the subsequent seasons and to suggest that they shouldn't be considered in the starting eleven is idiocy. For a start, is that what Fergie thought last season with Ferdinand? Did Fergie think this in 11/12 when Evra was shockingly horrible in the previous season? Did Fergie sell Carrick? It's ridiculous.

I don't think anybody has suggested they shouldn't ever be considered for the starting 11, you've just made that up. At what point do you start to consider moving these players on? Where do you think the squad needs improving? Because if you bring a few players in, a few have to go. They can't all be considered valuable members of the squad, it's bloated enough as it is.

 

[Bross]

Since you're so keen to cite good seasons, what about Carrick and Evra's very noticeable drop in form in recent seasons? Evra probably due to losing some physical capabilities and Carrick looking completely shot of confidence. If they're all still in the team as definite starters it means our levels have dropped drastically.

Evra is one of our most important players despite his age. Last season he was one of very few players at times who actually showed some guts and willingness to push the game on in the latter stages. He was often a crucial forerunner in the many games we went a goal or two behind and came back.

His endurance is also a critical aspect that is often overlooked. You seldom see such an attacking full back able to go gung ho to the 90th minute and play 40 + games each season. Yes his defensive ability has declined but hes still far better than anything else we have and is immensely important for us.

Carrick "noticeable drop in recent seasons" is just a ridiculous thing to say. He has been a consistent performer and probably our most important player for years, and was very good last season.

 

[kouroux]

The difference is like Conte at Juve or Guardiola at Barcelona we're talking about a club legend (or two if Red Nev's involved). Someone who walks into the dressing room and commands the respect. Fabregas said he was close to tears when Guardiola gave him the number 4 shirt cos he idolised him as a kid, you can't manufacture that. If you have a club legend like Ole in the dressing room, a proven winner, and someone who gets respect before even speaking you're ahead before you even begin. A point the Guardian article is making when it says Moyes is an unproven quality trying to convince a team of serial winners. Not easy, especially when Moyes keeps talking down our chances.

I definitely agree with this. P.R wise, Moyes has really been bad so far. This constant talk of the team not being good enough (I know I just exaggerated), lacking many world class players.

 

[MoneyMay]

I don't think anybody has suggested they shouldn't ever be considered for the starting 11, you've just made that up. At what point do you start to consider moving these players on? Where do you think the squad needs improving? Because if you bring a few players in, a few have to go. They can't all be considered valuable members of the squad, it's bloated enough as it is.

No, I haven't. Read this again:

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven.

Do I really have to explain the use of the word 'yet' and general tone in this sentence?

And I don't think you'll find one United fan who doesn't want us to make signings. We need a new LB and CM, of course, but that deserves its own thread. There really isn't much of a difference to the squad of last season and this season. The thing that has changed has been the tactics.

 

[MoneyMay]

Evra is one of our most important players despite his age. Last season he was one of very few players at times who actually showed some guts and willingness to push the game on in the latter stages. He was often a crucial forerunner in the many games we went a goal or two behind and came back.

His endurance is also a critical aspect that is often overlooked. You seldom see such an attacking full back able to go gung ho to the 90th minute and play 40 + games each season. Yes his defensive ability has declined but hes still far better than anything else we have and is immensely important for us.

Carrick "noticeable drop in recent seasons" is just a ridiculous thing to say. He has been a consistent performer and probably our most important player for years, and was very good last season.

Yeah, no point of explaining things at the moment, it's becoming tedious. Good post.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Evra is one of our most important players despite his age. Last season he was one of very few players at times who actually showed some guts and willingness to push the game on in the latter stages. He was often a crucial forerunner in the many games we went a goal or two behind and came back.

His endurance is also a critical aspect that is often overlooked. You seldom see such an attacking full back able to go gung ho to the 90th minute and play 40 + games each season. Yes his defensive ability has declined but hes still far better than anything else we have and is immensely important for us.

Carrick "noticeable drop in recent seasons" is just a ridiculous thing to say. He has been a consistent performer and probably our most important player for years, and was very good last season.

Around '09-11 Carrick was not in the form he has been in for the last 12 months. I can't even see how that's debatable. (I was only using that as an example that these players haven't been in the same incredible form for 4+ years, it was not to moan about Carrick)

Evra is not his old superhuman self despite an upturn in form since about Christmas. He is 32 and will not improve any more now, I didn't say he wasn't a very important player for us. The bold bit is kind of the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Shark]

Carrick is a very good player, but it's quite telling that he's our best central midfielder. A player like Fabregas or Thiago would have definitely taken us up a level or two above what Carrick offers going forward. Fellaini looks like a player that's just been bought to fill the lack of depth, rather than to actually improve us.

 

[Steven Seagull]

No, I haven't. Read this again:



Do I really have to explain the use of the word 'yet' and general tone in this sentence?

And I don't think you'll find one United fan who doesn't want us to make signings. We need a new LB and CM, of course, but that deserves its own thread. There really isn't much of a difference to the squad of last season and this season. The thing that has changed has been the tactics.

I see "starting 11" as a player that is almost definitely on the teamsheet for the biggest games. I think you're being pedantic if you think Saliph was implying none of them should ever start any games again.

 

[Bross]

Around '09-11 Carrick was not in the form he has been in for the last 12 months. I can't even see how that's debatable. (I was only using that as an example that these players haven't been in the same incredible form for 4+ years, it was not to moan about Carrick)

Evra is not his old superhuman self despite an upturn in form since about Christmas. He is 32 and will not improve any more now, I didn't say he wasn't a very important player for us. The bold bit is kind of the point I'm trying to make.

Well I strongly disagree about Carrick as Ive personally always thought he has been heads above the rest our best midfielder, even between 09-11, but thats not a discussion for this thread so we'll just have to disagree about that.

Evra is kind of moot now as hes leaving anyway (as I just found out ). Is there anyone on the market who can replace him? Our options within the squad are poor. We should really give Fabio plenty of chances this season so we will know if hes cut for the job next season or if we need to bring in someone else.