Moyes So Far!

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Jaybezia said:
POTENTIAL I believe he will feel, not that it's guaranteed obviously, but yes.

Miralles this season? Admiteddly, not much, last season he was good, but very average for me.
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I actually agree Januzaj has the potential to be better, I don't think that should will stop you signing another winger at the end of the season. For some odd reason Moyes doesn't seem to rate Zaha.
He's a great player, he's far from average in my opinion.
 
feck me, you can't ask for his sacking already. fecking hell what has gotten into you?

We support him, we rally around him and we move slowly up the table. We were never always going to be the top team forever, you don't just throw everything out at the first sign of trouble.

He's got at least a full season.
 
Keeping a side competitive with limited resources takes one set of skills, managing title winners requires a different mindset and skillset. Moyes MO has been to make do with what he has, keep his Everton side in the top half.

If he cant change his outlook then there is no point persisting with him.
 
Commadus said:
Keeping a side competitive with limited resources takes one set of skills, managing title winners requires a different mindset and skillset. Moyes MO has been to make do with what he has, keep his Everton side in the top half.

If he cant change his outlook then there is no point persisting with him.
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Definitely agree with the first para and that was why I thought he wasnt the right choice. But as for the second, how long do you give a manager to change his outlook? 10 games isnt very many.
 
This whole "He's managing the league winners, he should be able to keep us competitive" is such a daft way of looking at it. Fergie was here for 27 odd years. He knew everything about his players, knew what worked and what didn't, who he could rely on and, most importantly, he had his own players, suited to the system he wanted to play. Moyes has come in and, though they may be league winners, I'm sure there are some of them he doesn't fancy, some of them that just don't suit. He's still teasing out what works for him and what he wants the players to do. It was always going to take time. The manager has come into new surroundings, with new players and staff to work with and learn how to get the best from and likewise, both in terms of training and the system they play, the players are being asked to make massive changes to the way they work. It's totally unfair to expect it to be a seamless transition. I didn't expect us to be so brittle and lacking in ideas at home, but surely it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that it wasn't going to just continue in the same vein with a new name on the manager's door?

None of which even mentions the fact that just having Fergie seemed to just make us a better team by 10-20%, regardless of personnel.
 
Brophs said:
The manager has come into new surroundings, with new players and staff to work with and learn how to get the best from and likewise, both in terms of training and the system they play, the players are being asked to make massive changes to the way they work.
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If a gentler hand on the tiller would have served the club better in this his first season at the club then Moyes must be prepared to take responsibility for the consequences of this. Until such time that he had both the resources and knowledge to enact significant change, should it have occurred?

This current fashion of throwing last season's team under the bus as a means of bolstering of the new manager, does both SAF and all involved a disservice IMO.The foundations for yet another United vintage were being laid, additionally we saw signings for the future in Zaha and Kagawa [that Moyes has chosen to sidelien them relatively speaking was his call].
 
Let's have a reality check. David Moyes was good enough to manage Everton and he did that for years and left under his own terms. That is something nobody can argue. He is certainly good enough (even too good if you know what I mean) to manage WBA and Southampton. I would doubt that there is one player on either club who would make United's starting XI and perhaps only a couple who would see bench time. Those two home games should have netted 6 points. There's no excuse about quality of personnel or quality of manager. At the moment it's all in their head and they need to get over themselves and beat the lesser teams with no excuse. Now, whether he's the right guy to led them to championships, that is another story.
 
The man said it himself that he needs "five or six world-class players" which at the moment we don't have. So unless we give him those players, it is folly and unfair to pass judgement on him.
 
I'm one of Fellaini's biggest fans but i've never thought he was world class or could be world class which makes that statement from Moyes rather strange to say the least considering he spent 27m on him, whether we shafted you or not.

It could be argued that Baines is one of the top LBs in the world at the moment however, so pursuing him was more understandable.
 
Eto'odinho said:
The man said it himself that he needs "five or six world-class players" which at the moment we don't have. So unless we give him those players, it is folly and unfair to pass judgement on him.
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I have been complaining about the quality of our side for years and I have to confess that SAF's recent strategy of buying mainly from the EPL and relying on old players was basically crap.
Moyes has not inherited a great side and only a cretin wouldnt admit that this side need quality. However we're not as shit as Moyes team is showing. In my opinion if he's not able to at least end up 4th place then he should be shown the door.
 
Eto'odinho said:
The man said it himself that he needs "five or six world-class players" which at the moment we don't have. So unless we give him those players, it is folly and unfair to pass judgement on him.
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5 or 6 world class players? Where has he said that? If its true then this guy has lost the plot. You don't need 5-6 world class players to retain the title. Also why spending 27m on a bean pole if you need quality?
 
TheGame said:
He said that for the Champions League however I think some of the comments were taken out of context.
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Would you kindly provide the link to that interview?

5-6 world class player. FFS that's half a team.
 
devilish said:
Would you kindly provide the link to that interview?

5-6 world class player. FFS that's half a team.
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He said he feels you need five to six world class players to win the Champions League and indicated that's what the likes of Bayern and Barcelona had. He was not saying United needed an extra five or six world class players.
 
Jaybezia said:
Kevin Mirallas is better than any winger Manchester United have? I couldn't disagree more, I think Januzaj will become better, Nani is currently better, Valencia (Of Old) was better, in fact it's only AY that he confidently is better than.
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What about Valencia ? Because Valencia (of Old)'s form matters little today. Mirallas is currently better than him without a doubt.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
He said he feels you need five to six world class players to win the Champions League and indicated that's what the likes of Bayern and Barcelona had. He was not saying United needed an extra five or six world class players.
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We've spent 27m on the former Everton Bean Pole. So I am sure that Moyes think he's world class (you dont spent that amount of money on a crappy player whose only good to head balls don't you?). So we've got

De Gea
Rooney
RVP
Fellaini
Vidic
Carrick (ok maybe he's not WC but he's better then the WC player Moyes brought from Everton)

+ good players like Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Cleverley, Chicarito, Kagawa and Januzaj

Now why the hell we're 8th place 4 points behind Everton (who just lost a 27m rated CM?)
 
devilish said:
We've spent 27m on the former Everton Bean Pole. So I am sure that Moyes think he's world class (you dont spent that amount of money on a crappy player whose only good to head balls don't you?). So we've got

De Gea
Rooney
RVP
Fellaini
Vidic
Carrick (ok maybe he's not WC but he's better then the WC player Moyes brought from Everton)
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I hate the term world class but it would be a bit of a stretch to put Fellaini or Carrick in there. There is a lot between a world class player and a bean pole who can only head a ball and 27m is unfortunately not that much money in the current transfer market. Only clear world class players United have is RVP and Rooney, although I think De Gea will be in that bracket very soon, if he is not already. Vidic has not looked himself since the injury. I think we have some youngsters who could fall into that bracket if developed right in the not to distance future. Rafael, like De Gea, is not far off.
 
devilish said:
Would you kindly provide the link to that interview?

5-6 world class player. FFS that's half a team.
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Take your pick: http://www1.skysports.com/news/12046/8947844/ ; http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/242705.html; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ality-needed-to-win-the-Champions-League.html; http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...hester-united-lack-world-class-talent?cc=5739; http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-uniteds-champions-league-chances-2314775; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24321712; http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/football/Champions_League/article1321009.ece .

The club needs to provide him with those world class players to allow him to weave his managerial magic. Until then it is perhaps best not to judge the man, IMO
 
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
I hate the term world class but it would be a bit of a stretch to put Fellaini or Carrick in there. There is a lot between a world class player and a bean pole who can only head a ball and 27m is unfortunately not that much money in the current transfer market. Only clear world class players United have is RVP and Rooney, although I think De Gea will be in that bracket very soon, if he is not already. Vidic has not looked himself since the injury. I think we have some youngsters who could fall into that bracket if developed right in the not to distance future. Rafael, like De Gea, is not far off.
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Strootman was bought for 15m, Wanyama for 12.5m and Mccarthy for 12m. I dont know whether you're able to find WC players for 27m but you certainly can get better players then...
 
Eto'odinho said:
Take your pick: http://www1.skysports.com/news/12046/8947844/ ; http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/242705.html; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ality-needed-to-win-the-Champions-League.html; http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...hester-united-lack-world-class-talent?cc=5739; http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-uniteds-champions-league-chances-2314775; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24321712; http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/football/Champions_League/article1321009.ece .

The club needs to provide him with those world class players to allow him to weave his managerial magic. Until then it is perhaps best not to judge the man, IMO
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So you want him to replace half of our team before you judge him? Great start he had spending 27 mil on Fellaini then. I'm not sure what club he thought he was taking over but United rarely buy world class players. We buy young promising players and make them world class, been that way for a while now. We might buy 1 world class player every now and then (RVP), and it probably was time for a world class mid, but we don't need 5 or 6 world class players more. The only positions we really need to strengthen are midfield obviously and left back. Other then that, a complete change of tactics is definitely needed, more so then any one player probably. That's our biggest problem, has been for a while.
 
bosnian_red said:
So you want him to replace half of our team before you judge him? Great start he had spending 27 mil on Fellaini then. I'm not sure what club he thought he was taking over but United rarely buy world class players. We buy young promising players and make them world class, been that way for a while now. We might buy 1 world class player every now and then (RVP), and it probably was time for a world class mid, but we don't need 5 or 6 world class players more. The only positions we really need to strengthen are midfield obviously and left back. Other then that, a complete change of tactics is definitely needed, more so then any one player probably. That's our biggest problem, has been for a while.
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He's not said we need an extra five to six world class players. Here are his quotes. I agree with them 100%. His assessment of United is that we have experienced and several players who are world class or close to it. I thought the same of our squad last season when Fergie was manager. Of course, not of that changes the fact that we should be performing much better than we are at the moment in the league which is his responsibility and should with the players we have challenging for that.

Moyes said: “To win the Champions League you have to have five or six world-class players.
“If you look at Bayern Munich, they have five or six really world-class players, and to win it you might have to have that in your squad.
“Look at Barcelona, who had it in the past, and Real Madrid have maybe got it now.
“That’s the level you have to get at to win it. We’ve not got that yet. What we have got is experience and several players who are in that category or close to it.”
 
Compared to Real, Barca, Bayern, and even City, there is a distinct lack of top class players in our squad, and compared to many other clubs (Arsenal, Dortmund, Atletico Madrid, PSG) our players don't seem to gel nearly as well as theirs. We have no more than 3 or 4 players that would stand a chance of getting into all those teams' starting 11s: De Gea, Rafael, RvP and Rooney (on his best, but in my opinion he's way too inconsistent, and way too often well below par, even if he's been relatively good so far this season, at least compared to the rest of the team. To be fair he has a shower of shite behind him in CM, but still I think he'd struggle to get into the team of many of the aforementioned clubs).

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven. And none of their would-be replacements are in the same class as they were. Add to that that we've lost players like Scholes and Ronaldo in the meantime and the picture gets grimmer.

So far this season, my impression is that SAF left Moyes an aging, weary squad riddled with mediocrity that only he could've squeezed one last title out of IMO, reminiscent of '04-06. We haven't played really great football in years, and our defense and midfield aren't even close to being able to compete with the best in Europe at the moment - especially our midfield.

I think Moyes has a bigger challenge ahead of him than many thought before the season, and that a massive overhaul is needed (which is why it's doubly, triply, quadruply disappointing that we screwed up so badly during the summer). Get rid of Rio, Anderson, Giggs, Valencia, Evra (leaving anyway), Young, possibly Vidic (might be wise to keep him another year) and possibly Fellaini (depending on whether his performances improve or not, but I doubt it) at the end of the season. Buy 2 CMs (both of which should be top class), a RW, a LB and possibly a CB in January/next summer.
 
If he wants to buy world class players, he and Woody can't get touchy about price tags like they did with Fabregas and Herrera. They need to take a leaf out of the Ozil deal and just buy a player of world class calibre for a price tag that justifies their talent. Not so much for Herrera but we should have bid £35-£40 million for Cesc from the start, rather than pissy £26 million bids. He really should be starting this January too to add a much needed boost of confidence to the team hopefully, just like Ozil did for Arsenal. If he could buy a world class winger or CM, the likes of RvP and Rooney would probably be rejuvenated and we could see them at their deadly best (all hypothetical of course).

@At Saliph, that list of players to buy is ok, don't think we need a CB as Evans, Smalling and Jones should be starting more as Ferdinand gets less game time, and LW instead as our right side is arguably stronger than our left. A move for Gundogan, Coentrao, Draxler and Di Maria would be a muppet summer for me, but I will remain dreaming about this rather than ever expecting one of these moves to ever materialise.
 
Saliph said:
Compared to Real, Barca, Bayern, and even City, there is a distinct lack of top class players in our squad, and compared to many other clubs (Arsenal, Dortmund, Atletico Madrid, PSG) our players don't seem to gel nearly as well as theirs. We have no more than 3 or 4 players that would stand a chance of getting into all those teams' starting 11s: De Gea, Rafael, RvP and Rooney (on his best, but in my opinion he's way too inconsistent, and way too often well below par, even if he's been relatively good so far this season, at least compared to the rest of the team. To be fair he has a shower of shite behind him in CM, but still I think he'd struggle to get into the team of many of the aforementioned clubs).

Too many aging stars and key players (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick, Giggs) that aren't even close to the level they were in '08, and yet 4 of them have (up until now anyway) still been considered part of our best eleven. And none of their would-be replacements are in the same class as they were. Add to that that we've lost players like Scholes and Ronaldo in the meantime and the picture gets grimmer.

So far this season, my impression is that SAF left Moyes an aging, weary squad riddled with mediocrity that only he could've squeezed one last title out of IMO, reminiscent of '04-06. We haven't played really great football in years, and our defense and midfield aren't even close to being able to compete with the best in Europe at the moment - especially our midfield.

I think Moyes has a bigger challenge ahead of him than many thought before the season, and that a massive overhaul is needed (which is why it's doubly, triply, quadruply disappointing that we screwed up so badly during the summer). Get rid of Rio, Anderson, Giggs, Valencia, Evra (leaving anyway), Young, possibly Vidic (might be wise to keep him another year) and possibly Fellaini (depending on whether his performances improve or not, but I doubt it) at the end of the season. Buy 2 CMs (both of which should be top class), a RW, a LB and possibly a CB in January/next summer.
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Oh give it a break.

Ok this is not SAF's finest squad and our recent strategy (buying players from mid EPL table club and relying on old players) which has costed us money (ex 20m for Young) and young talent (ex Pogba). However let us not kid ourselves. This side has won the EPL title and was unlucky to be kicked out from the CL. It doesn't deserve to be at the 8th place, 4 points behind Everton who strangely enough didn't seem to suffer from a hangover as we're currently doing despite losing their 'great' manager, their entire staff and a 27m rated player.

Moyes can bring the revolution he wants. However if he thinks that he'll add quality by spending 27m of Fellaini then he's a frigging nutter.
 
Moysey wants world class players

He signed Fellaini. And the next addition will be Leighton fecking Baines.
 
I don't think I want anything to happen more in the world than Moyes' to win the fecking lot and shut everyone up.
 
Too much mixing of the cards here, methinks. It doesn't follow from his statement about 5-6 world class players (which was made in a certain context that some people either fail to take into consideration or just plain ignore because it suits their agenda) that Moyes considers Fellaini a world class player - and thus that Moyes is a fool.

The price tag is touted as some kind of ultimate proof time and again. It's getting tedious now. We overpaid for the fecker, nobody denies that. It was the conclusion to a transfer window both Moyes and Woodward need to learn from. That's clear as day. I'm sure none of them are pleased with the way it turned out, though. They weren't rubbing their hands, thinking 27 million for Fellaini was great business - nor that he is a world class player, nor that his presence at OT would be sufficient in terms of fixing our midfield issues.

The common line: "Moyes moans about lacking world class players, but he signed the useless Fellaini for an obscene amount" doesn't have much merit in my opinion. Firstly, Fellaini isn't useless. Secondly the amount is too steep but not obscene given the circumstances. And thirdly I don't think Moyes regards him as a world class player. He was not the main target - a concept some people just refuse to consider because of the price and because they like to push the idea that Moyes' master plan is to turn United into a hoof ball machine.

Nevermind. What's important now is that United are realistic about the next window(s): Everyone and his granny knows we're after a couple of midfielders, including a truly top class one. That means the likelihood of landing anyone at a bargain price is slim to nil (part of the explanation for Fellaini's fee too, by the way). We might have to simply cough up whatever it takes to get that top class CM. I really hope we realize this - and that the Glazers are ready to back Moyes when push comes to shove. We can't insist on value for the sake of principles if this essentially prices us out of the market - it would be plain folly in this case, given that we actually have the money it takes.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Too much mixing of the cards here, methinks. It doesn't follow from his statement about 5-6 world class players (which was made in a certain context that some people either fail to take into consideration or just plain ignore because it suits their agenda) that Moyes considers Fellaini a world class player - and thus that Moyes is a fool.

The price tag is touted as some kind of ultimate proof time and again. It's getting tedious now. We overpaid for the fecker, nobody denies that. It was the conclusion to a transfer window both Moyes and Woodward need to learn from. That's clear as day. I'm sure none of them are pleased with the way it turned out, though. They weren't rubbing their hands, thinking 27 million for Fellaini was great business - nor that he is a world class player, nor that his presence at OT would be sufficient in terms of fixing our midfield issues.

The common line: "Moyes moans about lacking world class players, but he signed the useless Fellaini for an obscene amount" doesn't have much merit in my opinion. Firstly, Fellaini isn't useless. Secondly the amount is too steep but not obscene given the circumstances. And thirdly I don't think Moyes regards him as a world class player. He was not the main target - a concept some people just refuse to consider because of the price and because they like to push the idea that Moyes' master plan is to turn United into a hoof ball machine.

Nevermind. What's important now is that United are realistic about the next window(s): Everyone and his granny knows we're after a couple of midfielders, including a truly top class one. That means the likelihood of landing anyone at a bargain price is slim to nil (part of the explanation for Fellaini's fee too, by the way). We might have to simply cough up whatever it takes to get that top class CM. I really hope we realize this - and that the Glazers are ready to back Moyes when push comes to shove. We can't insist on value for the sake of principles if this essentially prices us out of the market - it would be plain folly in this case, given that we actually have the money it takes.
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Really hard to argue against anything in that post. Top post, mate.

The one thing that has disappointed me so far in his regin (which is admittedly ridicilously short for anyone to make assumptions about his capabilities) is the safety first-factor I feel we've adopted. We chickened out of matches where we could've gone for the jugular and one great wins (Liverpool and Chelsea) which has made the whole start to his reign difficult.
 
marjen said:
Really hard to argue against anything in that post. Top post, mate.

The one thing that has disappointed me so far in his regin (which is admittedly ridicilously short for anyone to make assumptions about his capabilities) is the safety first-factor I feel we've adopted. We chickened out of matches where we could've gone for the jugular and one great wins (Liverpool and Chelsea) which has made the whole start to his reign difficult.
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Absolutely - we were too passive in both those matches, as we were against Southampton last: He needs to adjust his approach in that respect. But I think he will. He seems to have gone into the season with a safey-first principle that needs to be ditched - but that he went for this approach is understandable: We've had some very tricky matches and he has faced the task of experimenting with the first team, feeling his way, under circumstances that have been anything but ideal.

PS I was interested to see Fergie's comments today about the fixture list. Should be noted by those who went overboard in using Moyes' words about the same against him.
 
Eto'odinho said:
The club needs to provide him with those world class players to allow him to weave his managerial magic. Until then it is perhaps best not to judge the man, IMO
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I agree that in terms of class and depth we are quite a way behind Barca and Bayern, and when it comes to style a number of other teams. I'm not sure it was the right thing for Moyes to go public with, but to not judge him until he gets those players would mean we'd never judge him. You see how mad the caf gets when there's a hint of signing just one player who's truly capable of winning a game? You think the Glazers will subsidize the leach-fund to OK those sorts of transactions? You think Woodward is capable of making those deals, all 5 or 6 of them? You think Moyes can find those players...
 
Mersault said:
I agree that in terms of class and depth we are quite a way behind Barca and Bayern, and when it comes to style a number of other teams. I'm not sure it was the right thing for Moyes to go public with, but to not judge him until he gets those players would mean we'd never judge him. You see how mad the caf gets when there's a hint of signing just one player who's truly capable of winning a game? You think the Glazers will subsidize the leach-fund to OK those sorts of transactions? You think Woodward is capable of making those deals, all 5 or 6 of them? You think Moyes can find those players...
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Moyes said: “To win the Champions League you have to have five or six world-class players.
“If you look at Bayern Munich, they have five or six really world-class players, and to win it you might have to have that in your squad.
“Look at Barcelona, who had it in the past, and Real Madrid have maybe got it now.
“That’s the level you have to get at to win it. We’ve not got that yet. What we have got is experience and several players who are in that category or close to it.”
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Moyes said: “To win the Champions League you have to have five or six world-class players.
“If you look at Bayern Munich, they have five or six really world-class players, and to win it you might have to have that in your squad.
“Look at Barcelona, who had it in the past, and Real Madrid have maybe got it now.
“That’s the level you have to get at to win it. We’ve not got that yet. What we have got is experience and several players who are in that category or close to it.”
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And?

I was replying to this:

Eto'odinho said:
The club needs to provide him with those world class players to allow him to weave his managerial magic. Until then it is perhaps best not to judge the man, IMO
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Mersault said:
And?

I was replying to this:
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You:
You think Woodward is capable of making those deals, all 5 or 6 of them? You think Moyes can find those players...​
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​
Me:
Moyes said: “To win the Champions League you have to have five or six world-class players.
“If you look at Bayern Munich, they have five or six really world-class players, and to win it you might have to have that in your squad.
“Look at Barcelona, who had it in the past, and Real Madrid have maybe got it now.
“That’s the level you have to get at to win it. We’ve not got that yet. What we have got is experience and several players who are in that category or close to it.”
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​
He hasn't stated he's looking for 5 or 6 players.
​
 
Kid Cunto said:
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It's an interesting take. Some interesting insight but there is a lot of strange individual mistakes being criticized for Moyes lack of tactical awareness. Such as not controlling a ball and being able to take the simple option, Fellaini slipping over. The bizarre one was talking about Fellaini not being around the box when he's playing as a deeper midfielder.

Not a bad little analysis though.
 
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