McTominay Vs Fred

McTominay would do well over the course of his career to get to Fred's current level. He just doesn't have Fred's quality with the ball. Fred has been one of the best midfielders in England this season. He is close to being the complete centre midfielder, performs against every kind of team and is a joy to watch. I don't think there's even an argument. McTominay has done well to establish himself in such difficult period, but he's barely had competition. I don't see how he is much better than the textbook EPL midtable midfielder. We could do a lot better than him even as squad choice. He should be fifth-sixth choice next season behind Pogba, Bruno, a new midfielder, Fred and potentially, Matic.
 
I think a proper midfield depth chart would look like this:

CM:
Bruno,
Pogba or another offensively gifted #8,
they are both challenged by Fred and maybe in some tougher games one is pushed out wide or up front or to become the 1st sub to come on and change a game like old Giggs used to for us. People only talk about strikers and wingers as changing games off the bench but I don't see any reason to think central midfielders, #10s and even highly attacking fullbacks can't provide close to similar levels of impact.

DM:
A quality starting DM (I think Partey would still be great without Simeone coaching him, or people here like Zakaria, others available too)
backed up by McTominay

I don't think McTominay has the passing or skill for the #8 position here but with his size, concentration, effort and that this year I really thought his best passing was from deep in midfield and not higher up or wider, I think he's done enough to be the backup and see us sell off Matic and just roll with those 5 midfielders and the occasional minute for a RW like Sancho or whoever we sign to play as a 10, or 2 forwards up front or Garner, Gomes or another young player to get their shot at some spot minutes or decent domestic cup time.
 
Fred is a much more finished product and gladly he has demonstrated that throughout this season. In another post I rated him consistently best player throughout 9 months period.

mcTom while being physical, simply doesn't have the passing skill as Fred, nor the positional awareness of Matic, which makes him default #3 choice among these 3. No problem with him neither, but good to provide back up and challenge to Fred and Matic
 
Fred can pass with both feet, the engine to win the ball back and move the ball quicker with blessed of toughness & aggression to not get bullied physically. He has the ability to control the midfield.

Scott is gifted with good physical height, defensively not as outstanding as the specialty players such as Makelele & Casemiro, passing ability are not as good as playmaker. Just like Fred, both of them are all round player. However one has ability to control the midfield while the other one doesn't.

Fred does them in level above Scott does. Which is why when you see the team played poor but you still think Fred was one of our best performance in that poor match this season, while very often I see Scott played poor when we also played poor in the game. Fred is just the better player at the moment, he's already level above. This is only based on this season performance.
 
Right now they're not even comparable they're such different players. McTominay is much more secure in possession and more stable, whereas Fred is more creative but also loses the ball more. Fred gets dribbled past more than McTominay and get physically pushed off the ball much more. His first touch is also more suspect.

However Fred is a better dribbler in tight spaces although McTominay isn't bad. He also has better defensive positioning right now. But he's also 27. So I believe what we're seeing of Fred is pretty close to his peak. McTominay however is only 23 and has improved massively over the last 2 years and there's no doubt in my mind that he'll continue to improve.

In conclusion right now Fred is better, but if we look retrospectively after their careers are over I fully believe McTominay will have clearly had a better career and have been the better player overall. The few above posts are seriously underrating him and his potential.
 
Based Adnan said:
Fred gets bypassed way too easily and for all the talk about him being better on the ball he's just as sloppy with misplaced passes. McTominay has also done it in big games for longer than Fred.
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That makes no sense. There is a clear disparity in terms of pass completion between the two of them. Fred has 87% whilst McTominay has 79%. That is a massive difference and clearly shows McTominay gives it away far more than Fred.

McTominay has done it in big games for longer? When? Fred has played with McTominay the vast majority of the time against the big teams. He has also constantly been in the top 3 players on the pitch.
 
Untd55 said:
That makes no sense. There is a clear disparity in terms of pass completion between the two of them. Fred has 87% whilst McTominay has 79%. That is a massive difference and clearly shows McTominay gives it away far more than Fred.

McTominay has done it in big games for longer? When? Fred has played with McTominay the vast majority of the time against the big teams. He has also constantly been in the top 3 players on the pitch.
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Yeah maybe being just as sloppy as McTominay is a slight exaggeration but Fred despite all his praise for being a good ball player is still prone to sloppiness on the ball.

McTominay has been performing in big games for us ever since he broke through. His midfield partner during this period was always Matic not Fred. Liverpool and Chelsea games under Mourinho a few examples of many of his good performances in big games without Fred. Only in the last year or so has Fred looked like a player and even then, when McTominay finally got a look in under Ole and had a brilliant game vs Liverpool last Feburary, Fred was not on the pitch.
 
Fred is the better midfielder. They’re both sloppy, but he’s marginally tighter. He’s more energetic, appears to win possession more frequently and is better at passing between the lines.

McTominay has made great strides to improve this season but he still has a long way to go. There is a material difference between working hard and getting stuck in during big games and actually having the quality to dictate one. The reality is that he doesn’t do anywhere near enough in games were expected to win. It’s why he should remain a competitive squad option in an ideal set of midfielders. He isn’t a starter. Neither is Fred, to be frank. We can still do better.

Matic remains the necessary evil in our midfield, whether people want to accept it or not. He has more quality and assurance on the ball and is significantly better positionally than either. We need a younger Matic with legs.
 
I think Fred edges it but there’s games where McTominay might be more suitable.
 
Man I really dont like this comparison because it takes away from Mctominay. However if I had to pick between the 2 it would be Fred. Its a no brainer. Superior in everything other than physical strength. There was not a single big game this season that Fred was average in.
 
KennyBurner said:
Man I really dont like this comparison because it takes away from Mctominay. However if I had to pick between the 2 it would be Fred. Its a no brainer. Superior in everything other than physical strength. There was not a single big game this season that Fred was average in.
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You’re right this comparison is asinine and OP should be taking a ton of flack for creating this.

However if we had to sell one of them I’d absolutely sell Fred as he’s much older and McTominay is both younger and has a potential to improve more than Fred. I love both though so this thread is dumb.
 
Of the two, Fred looks like the better player, while McTominay seems to offer better physical presence to allow other players to shine. If Pogba plays instead of one of them, the better choice is the one who offers more balance to the midfield and I think that means McT plays ahead of Fred (which is a shame). Honestly, I'd prefer to play them both since they seem to compliment each other nicely and let Pogba earn his way back in with his performances.
 
Fred is miles better. Scott is a good squad player to have but to be a regular United I would say no.

Any of the top clubs wouldn't be rushing to sign him Scott.
 
KennyBurner said:
Man I really dont like this comparison because it takes away from Mctominay. However if I had to pick between the 2 it would be Fred. Its a no brainer. Superior in everything other than physical strength. There was not a single big game this season that Fred was average in.
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a lot of elements can be subjectively argued for either player - but I don’t imagine anyone would seriously suggest that Fred is a better goal scorer or can strike the Ball better that McT. Fred’s shooting from, well anywhere, is really poor.
 
Rish Sawhney said:
You’re right this comparison is asinine and OP should be taking a ton of flack for creating this.

However if we had to sell one of them I’d absolutely sell Fred as he’s much older and McTominay is both younger and has a potential to improve more than Fred. I love both though so this thread is dumb.
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If you’ve read the OP you can clearly see that I like and rate both players and think that they both have a big future, and big part to play. However, the reality is that more often than not they might not play together, especially with the return of Pogba so it’s important to question who should start out of them both when push comes to shove.

I wouldn’t sell either of them but I’ve explained in the OP that favouring Fred at the moment and think he offers more as a player currently.
 
OL29 said:
I think Fred edges it but there’s games where McTominay might be more suitable.
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This is fair at the moment I think too. There will be games where we use a diamond and they both play too which will be effective as I thought we saw against Everton.
 
Fred is the better player right now but McTominay would be a better partner for Pogba and Fernandes. Fred dives in too much while pressing and is often easily beaten, which would expose our defence massively if he were played as the deepest midfielder whereas McTominay is a more solid option. Matic would actually be the best partner on paper since he is most sound defensively but there are question marks over the workrate of a Matic-Pogba tandem.
 
Fred-Scott-Bruno have been our best midfielder since they have played together. We shouldn't really choose one ahead of other, and this combination will be hurt if we removed one of the 2 to put in a passenger off the ball like Pogba.
 
They're actually very similar when you think about it, might be why they work so well together but leave the rest of the team lacking (certainly against the smaller clubs who play for a 0-0)

Fred's been our POTY over Scott based on appearances but I suspect in Ole's eyes McTominay is still ahead in the pecking order when next season starts
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
If you’ve read the OP you can clearly see that I like and rate both players and think that they both have a big future, and big part to play. However, the reality is that more often than not they might not play together, especially with the return of Pogba so it’s important to question who should start out of them both when push comes to shove.

I wouldn’t sell either of them but I’ve explained in the OP that favouring Fred at the moment and think he offers more as a player currently.
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To address your point directly Ole has said he views Fred as having a similar profile and role as Pogba. He started the season with Pogba and McTominay and thats how he'll persist at least to start with once Pogba is back in the team. Fred, Pogba, and Bruno would constantly get dribbled past. You need someone who can get defensively physical and is willing to play safe to the skill players (Pogba and Bruno). Fred is like 85% Pogba but he has some brainfarts in his own half with bad touches or just trying to dribble for no reason.
 
Fred is simply a better player at this point. In the last several games I feel like Fred has always popped up in the right places to shoot, He just needs to work on his finishing. His passes are okay and his work rate is phenomenal. He never stops running.

And that alone is the reason why I'm really tempted to see Pogba as a#6 (Holding midfielder), Fred as a #8 (Box to box) and Bruno as a #10 (AM). Pogba has better ball control and long pass than Fred. He can be a Deep Lying play maker and his strength & composure will be such a nuisance for the opponents. Then on occasions when Pogba starts bulldozing forward ala Yaya Toure, Fred could cover for him. Because I feel like Fred isn't the kind of midfielder you'd expect to ping the ball from one side of the field to the other.
 
Fred has more natural talent, without question. But he's not a chance creator and he's not a scorer and he's not that much of a defender. A very decent midfielder, he's not at the level of Pogba or Bruno in attack and not at the level of McTominay and Matic in defense. Fred > McTominay with the ball at his feet but IF we have Pogba and Bruno I'd rather have McTominay than Fred support those two.

The only flogging I'd give Fred is his lack of any contribution whatsoever in the final third...his finishing is a complete mess.
 
lex talionis said:
Fred has more natural talent, without question. But he's not a chance creator and he's not a scorer and he's not that much of a defender. A very decent midfielder, he's not at the level of Pogba or Bruno in attack and not at the level of McTominay and Matic in defense. Fred > McTominay with the ball at his feet but IF we have Pogba and Bruno I'd rather have McTominay than Fred support those two.

The only flogging I'd give Fred is his lack of any contribution whatsoever in the final third...his finishing is a complete mess.
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You are underrating Fred's defensive ability.

If you compare the three players whoscored.com stats in defending, he's better than both of them.
 
I always feel that with both of them in the team we lack creativity and guile to control the game, but with only one of them we lack a bit of bite and physicality, so it's a trade off.

I've not really seen a player with a career trajectory like McTominay, I had completely written him off as someone who would never make it a couple if seasons ago.

For me, Fred is more talented, and probably a better 'all rounder', but there are certain aspects of McTominay's game that lead me to believe he will be a more central figure than Fred. For example, Veron was a much better footballer than Keane, but his time here was not a successful one, comparable to Fred's career here before his recent upturn.

Like Keane, McTominay has that grit, determination and leadership that often sets aside the 'good' from the 'great'. As we all know, football is not all about ability, mentality plays a huge part, and McTominay has a fantastic attitude. Now I'm not saying McTominay is the new Keane, or will become anything like Keane, but for what Keane lacked in ability himself, he more than made up for by drawing that extra 10% out of his teammates.

I think McTominay can emulate that with his passion and leadership, and he also has time on his side being only 23. As of right now, Fred is the superior player and probably forms a more complete partnership with Matic in CM, but I fully expect McTominay to be hugely influential in the coming years in bringing us back to the top, along with Maguire, Bruno & Rashford.
 
eire-red said:
I always feel that with both of them in the team we lack creativity and guile to control the game, but with only one of them we lack a bit of bite and physicality, so it's a trade off.

I've not really seen a player with a career trajectory like McTominay, I had completely written him off as someone who would never make it a couple if seasons ago.

For me, Fred is more talented, and probably a better 'all rounder', but there are certain aspects of McTominay's game that lead me to believe he will be a more central figure than Fred. For example, Veron was a much better footballer than Keane, but his time here was not a successful one, comparable to Fred's career here before his recent upturn.

Like Keane, McTominay has that grit, determination and leadership that often sets aside the 'good' from the 'great'. As we all know, football is not all about ability, mentality plays a huge part, and McTominay has a fantastic attitude. Now I'm not saying McTominay is the new Keane, or will become anything like Keane, but for what Keane lacked in ability himself, he more than made up for by drawing that extra 10% out of his teammates.

I think McTominay can emulate that with his passion and leadership, and he also has time on his side being only 23. As of right now, Fred is the superior player and probably forms a more complete partnership with Matic in CM, but I fully expect McTominay to be hugely influential in the coming years in bringing us back to the top, along with Maguire, Bruno & Rashford.
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I actually think people get a bit blinded by technical skills when judging players. Mctominay doesn't need to be as skilful on the ball for the role demanded of him. His positioning, ball winning, aerial ability, strength and speed alone make him a more ideal defensive player than Fred. He is working on the more offensive aspects of his game, and the improvements are clearly visible. His passing is getting a lot better and his touches which were always good are getting more refined. He's very good at holding on to the ball and ironically, given his physique, makes him a lot better at keeping the ball than Fred. Fred is better at keeping the ball moving, releasing key passes ( which are hit or miss) and harrying defenders, but is an average to poor tackler and his positioning can really be off.He's kind of the midfield version of Bailly, as he can look great when he's on form, but is absolutely shocking when off. Mctominay should be ahead of him on the current team and has a far higher ceiling. What has happened is that his injury and Fred's recent upturn in performances have made people forget what Mctominay was offering prior to his injury.
 
Ask yourself this, is we transfer listed them, who would be in for them?

Fred would end up at someone like Juve, Scott would end up at someone like Everton.

There’s your answer.
 
Finally, we have a good problem... players performing to the point we don’t know which to drop.
Personally, I wish we could fit them all on the team (bruno, pogba, fred, mctominay) but then we’d lose all midfield depth from subs... one of them will need to be our “Sergio Romero”
 
Fred has impressed more this season. If he could add long-range goals to his game in big games, then he'd be an Essien clone.

But we don't fully know Mctominay's ceiling yet as he's still a kid learning his trade.

Off on a tangent now - but I believe the reason Mourinho dumped Fred on the bench to rot, was because it was his way at getting back at the board for not buying him Maguire also. I really hope Fred gets POTY to make Jose look like a twat.
 
Champagne Football said:
Off on a tangent now - but I believe the reason Mourinho dumped Fred on the bench to rot, was because it was his way at getting back at the board for not buying him Maguire also. I really hope Fred gets POTY to make Jose look like a twat.
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Weren't Fred made a lot of costly mistakes around that time...
..and yet, Mou played him 12 times out of 24 until he get sacked.

Fair enough for a new player having problems adapting to the different league environment no?

Reference - transfermarkt

Ole "rotted" him to the bench and out of squad for almost two consecutive months -- only given one game in FA Cup vs weak team.
After that, the midfield injuries opened up easy paths for Fred to prove himself.
 
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eire-red said:
I always feel that with both of them in the team we lack creativity and guile to control the game, but with only one of them we lack a bit of bite and physicality, so it's a trade off.

I've not really seen a player with a career trajectory like McTominay, I had completely written him off as someone who would never make it a couple if seasons ago.

For me, Fred is more talented, and probably a better 'all rounder', but there are certain aspects of McTominay's game that lead me to believe he will be a more central figure than Fred. For example, Veron was a much better footballer than Keane, but his time here was not a successful one, comparable to Fred's career here before his recent upturn.

Like Keane, McTominay has that grit, determination and leadership that often sets aside the 'good' from the 'great'. As we all know, football is not all about ability, mentality plays a huge part, and McTominay has a fantastic attitude. Now I'm not saying McTominay is the new Keane, or will become anything like Keane, but for what Keane lacked in ability himself, he more than made up for by drawing that extra 10% out of his teammates.

I think McTominay can emulate that with his passion and leadership, and he also has time on his side being only 23. As of right now, Fred is the superior player and probably forms a more complete partnership with Matic in CM, but I fully expect McTominay to be hugely influential in the coming years in bringing us back to the top, along with Maguire, Bruno & Rashford.
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I like mctominay and his rise to prominence here but I’ve never figured out we’re we got this leadership attribute from? I get the passion and all but not the leadership. Similar to Pogba I don’t know why some think he has good leadership. Anytime someone wants to explain pogbas leadership they always refer back to that France lockeroom video. More time it’s him just buckling under pressure in a big game when we need him to take control and ease the pressure.

I’d say the only leaders right now that we have in the team are maguire and Bruno. Maguire leads from the back with his calmness on the ball while Bruno has actually elevated our team unlike what we think Pogba does. I guess it’s just what we all individually think leadership means. Off topic but I could see Bruno and maguire being our future captains next season.
 
I don't think we'll go far with either of them alongside Pogba/another creative CM if he leaves and Bruno. Neither are good enough at being the sitting midfielder.

Fred can bring the ball up from deep, and pass decently through the lines to find advanced players, but is beaten too easily. McTominay is good at not letting players past him but is a liability against smaller sides in which we have more of the ball as his lack of technique and composure really hinder us against sides that sit deep. They can work together because they both compensate for the others flaws, but that combination isn't a combo we should be building our midfield around either.

Matic is still better than both as the option to sit, but just doesn't have the legs for it unfortunately. He has more composure than both when dealing with pressing teams, can bring the ball forwards better than both, and is better than Fred at sitting, but is probably beaten more than McTominay. Matic has better positioning in terms of cutting off angles and covering space, though. We need a younger version of him.
 
Bruno transformed us and he probably saved Ole's managerial career as well. Thus it would be wise to buy a top quality creative midfielder whom while being hardworking to play alongside Bruno he can compensate for the Portuguese's absence in case the latter need to get injured/need rest. Thus the final spot will go for a defensive midfielder. He doesn't need to be an anchor player like Matic is but he has to be defensively sound. McT and Fred will have to fight for that role.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
You are underrating Fred's defensive ability.

If you compare the three players whoscored.com stats in defending, he's better than both of them.
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I really don't see defending as a strength in Fred's game. He's not poor, to be sure, but if were an opposing player I'd much rather take on Fred than McTominay. The gap may not be great between the two, but there is a gap.

We also need to see Fred substantially raise his game in attacking positions. The talent is there and it may just be that he needs that one performance where he scores a proper goal and/or creates a great chance and he bolts into new territory, but as watched the two progress this season there's no question in my mind that McTominay is a more dangerous threat on goal than Fred.

I'd sum it up this way:

In our defensive third McTominay > Fred by a measurable distance
Middle third Fred > McTominay substantially so
Final third McTominay > Fred substantially so
 
lex talionis said:
I really don't see defending as a strength in Fred's game. He's not poor, to be sure, but if were an opposing player I'd much rather take on Fred than McTominay. The gap may not be great between the two, but there is a gap.

We also need to see Fred substantially raise his game in attacking positions. The talent is there and it may just be that he needs that one performance where he scores a proper goal and/or creates a great chance and he bolts into new territory, but as watched the two progress this season there's no question in my mind that McTominay is a more dangerous threat on goal than Fred.

I'd sum it up this way:

In our defensive third McTominay > Fred by a measurable distance
Middle third Fred > McTominay substantially so
Final third McTominay > Fred substantially so
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Football is not just a matter of being one on one especially in midfield. They are not bloody full back where there is a benefit of being good in one on one situation.

Fred has better defensive stats than both Scott & Matic. On top of it, his incredible energy & stamina, as well as offered more pace & his ability to win 2nd ball are more benefit to play next to Pogba rather than someone who is slower such as Scott & Matic.

Roy Keane is an example who is equally great in both of his offensive & defensive ability as midfielder. Not every midfielder are specialist, there are midfielder who can do both job equally, the same goes to Fred who can do equally quality in both aspect.

This is where it's actually benefit for us when we have two pivot midfielders who are capable to pass the ball and pick their man, increasing our creativity especially that we have been struggling against low block. Against the top side, we tend to use 5 defenders as well to create more balance.

On top of it, we have Shaw who tends not to overlap when playing full back & Bissaka who is brilliant in defending. We have full backs who also suit to play Pogba & Fred together.
 
Look, it's clear you look at stats (specific stats I should add, mind) as first evidence and prefer those "more visible" traits eg. energy, pace and speed, etc, so clearly you rate McT and Matic less than Fred, while ignoring there are plenty more when it comes to the art of defending which stats maker doesn't record because it's not measured by numbers perhaps, no?

It's also strange, but I get from your point of view why you think Fred are "equally" good at both offense and defense, but not McT... and yet you ignore stats when it comes to the attacking aspects? so strange. Clearly Fred have the edge when it comes to passings mainly, but how about the other stats such as shootings, attempts on goals, and actual goals, presence inside box, threats from outside, runnings into box, etc etc etc. Prefer actually watching the game, but the certain attacking stats may favour McT more than Fred...?

That said, I'm with you..
With 5 at the back or 4 but with Shaw and AWB, I like to see Pogba and Fred at the pivot. It could work just fine to balance it up. Who knows but I'm positive. Can't wait.
 
Rifer said:
Look, it's clear you look at stats (specific stats I should add, mind) as first evidence and prefer those "more visible" traits eg. energy, pace and speed, etc, so clearly you rate McT and Matic less than Fred, while ignoring there are plenty more when it comes to the art of defending which stats maker doesn't record because it's not measured by numbers perhaps, no?

It's also strange, but I get from your point of view why you think Fred are "equally" good at both offense and defense, but not McT... and yet you ignore stats when it comes to the attacking aspects? so strange. Clearly Fred have the edge when it comes to passings mainly, but how about the other stats such as shootings, attempts on goals, and actual goals, presence inside box, threats from outside, runnings into box, etc etc etc. Prefer actually watching the game, but the certain attacking stats may favour McT more than Fred...?

That said, I'm with you..
With 5 at the back or 4 but with Shaw and AWB, I like to see Pogba and Fred at the pivot. It could work just fine to balance it up. Who knows but I'm positive. Can't wait.
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I'm not really sure what's your point there. I only said that Fred is currently the better player and I back it up with what I watched & the stats. I also added that Fred is more suitable to play next to Pogba than Matic or Scott.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Ask yourself this, is we transfer listed them, who would be in for them?

Fred would end up at someone like Juve, Scott would end up at someone like Everton.

There’s your answer.
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Young ended up at Inter. Scott could end up at City or Liverpool. So you just never know.
 
Fred is better at winning the ball back and plays with more tenacity. He's better at driving the ball forward with his dribbling, and he's pretty rapid. He also finds himself in good attacking positions. Hes our player of the season imo. Like a Brazilian Kante.

That being said, McTominay is stronger and better in the air, obviously. McTominay has a way way way better shot on him. McTominay's passing is more incisive too. Hes quick to turn and zip it to a teammate, and I've loved his through balls to Dan James running down the right wing.

If I was to compare them like fifa ultimate team cards, fred would have higher pace, dribbling and defending and mctominay higher physicality, passing and shooting (much higher when it comes to shooting haha).
 
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