Nail on the head.
Luke Shaw interview post Wolves defeat
- Thread starter Livewire1974
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We needed a clear out after Moyes, we needed a clear out after LVG, we needed a clear out after Mourinho, and now we need another clear out after Ole. This isn't normal.
And there's always an excuse for it, whether it's "coaching", "dinosaur managers", "weak mentality", etc etc. The only constant is the club itself. We've been a shitshow.
And there's always an excuse for it, whether it's "coaching", "dinosaur managers", "weak mentality", etc etc. The only constant is the club itself. We've been a shitshow.
It's a tricky one because personally I don't blame Ralf for this shit show but what worries me is that we have not improved one bit since Ole left IMO. After the first half an hour of the first game under RR we have looked exactly the same side with exactly the same issues but in a different formation.
If this is the same at the end of the season then Ralf has to take a bit of blame but I can't help but feel that there is a deep rot in this team and Ronaldo hasn't helped one bit. I think there are cliques in the dressing room and there is a lot of resentment. I think the fact we haven't looked like a team in years is partly due to this and its also partly because of the style of football Ole has played where individualism has been so important to form.
Regardless of the borderline impossible circumstances of Ralfs first month in charge, he should have been able to to do something and the fact he hasn't makes me worried. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the United dressing room. There have to be some massive issues for such a prescriptive manager to be struggling to change anything after a month.
Isn't this a problem in itself, when a player would rather join us than play for the best coach around and guaranteed trophies. It makes you question what their motives are for joining us and their ambitions.
How low have our standards dropped, that we are not allowed to expect improvements to Ole-style 424 by end Jan. Madness.
None of the managers have been good enough so I don't think it's that it's either the club or the managers that are the problem, it's both. But obviously if you sort out the club aspect of things, it's safe to say some of the managers could have at least achieved more than they did.
It is truly incredible that we've now thrown £300m at three managers in a row and every single time, ended up with a mess of a squad with a huge wage bill full of players who either don't seem to care, don't fit in, or have turned to shite once they got here. I mean at what point does the club realize "hang on, this might not actually be the best approach to take". Madness.
If you have watched the interview you would know that he did not come out with shite as you call it.
These things have to be said and not just swept under the carpet.
And his performance was no worse than anyone else.
That is why.
Think apart from midfield the first area RR will look at is the forwards. His teams play a pressing game but he has inherited two elderly forwards, one who does move around and will put the work in, but whose game time needs managing. The other just want someone to provide chances for him to put it in the net but will put effort in now an again.
Which is why you need someone like Ralf coming in to look at everything dispassionately. Ole could never do that he was almost too wrapped up in the dreamworld of Manchester United.
How many years do you wanna go back?
Our playing squad has stunk since fergie's days. Fergie was one of a kind, he could man manage and elevate performances.
Every thing in the last decade has been off, from top to bottom. Poorly run, poorly managed. We have recruited so poorly and are paying for it still.
We are the biggest joke in the premier league. We have no standards whatsoever and no accountability.
I really hope we miss out on Europa League. Let the next manager have a full season of just EPL and gut the squad like a fish. I can't stand this team/squad. A bunch of whingers that can't even motivate themselves for personal pride, let alone to play as a team. So sick of them.
It’s absolutely normal. Every time a manager fails at any club the next manager almost always has to start by getting in better players and shifting deadwood.
What is a bit abnormal is Ralf/new manager having to shift deadwood that was here when Ole took the job. Although there’s a slight excuse around loads of clubs going broke due to covid etc making it harder than usual to shift unwanted players. Still, though, it’s a bit fecking nuts that the “overhaul” under Ole was so half-arsed.
That is right.
He is obviously going to find it tough and tough decisions need to be made.
The whole football club needs a transformation that is focused on excellence, at all levels.
We need a proper plan to be established and put in place. And then resources made available to deliver that planned transformation.
And as I continue to say, that needs real leadership, right at the very top of the organisation.
Anything else is just dicking about.
Don't forget the Europa Conference League - we need to have our worst post-SAF season to avoid qualifying for that.
We could be sat here saying none of the managers have been good enough in another 3 or 4 managers time. We shouldn't have been as shit as we have been. It's another year of probably not making it into the Top 4 and for all the money we've spent and the supposed talent we have at our disposal, that's a bit of a joke regardless of who is in charge.
I am grateful to Luke Shaw for coming out and being honest. He did not praise himself, he used "we" everywhere, thus including himself in every criticism he made. Looks like there are major issues in the dressing room and "cultural reset" has ended up being "a cultural upset".
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No it isn't. We're on another level when it comes to flushing money down the pan on reboots and rebuilds.
Luke Shaw's interview yesterday was telling. It seemed to me to be a none-to-subtle dig at the forwards. "We didn't start with the right intensity", "We allowed them to get control of the ball", We allowed them to be comfortable", "They probably felt they were in control of the game". "We are not all together on the pitch".
Shaw isn't the only person to point out this season the complete lack of pressing, intensity and physicality from the forwards. It's been mentioned by Rangnick in at least two of his post-game interviews, and indeed Rashford and Fernandes have both been left out recently. It has also been covered, to a certain degree, by the Sky Sports team, who have highlighted the lack of defensive effort from the forwards.
Despite this, it feels to me like the players who are consistently and constantly panned on this forum and in the press are the defensive players. Shaw himself has come in for a tonne of criticism. Maguire is blamed for every goal we concede. You can't hear AWBs name mentioned without someone adding "isn't that good on the ball". Jones has been completely ridiculed. Lindelof is criticised for his lack of physicality and aerial ability. McTominay and Fred are singled out every single game by the Sky Sports pundits, and they pull no punches with them whatsoever.
Modern football, more than ever, is a team game. Modern defenders are expected to take risks. They are asked to play much higher up the pitch then their 90s/00s counterparts. They are asked to help the team play out from the back by retaining possession and taking the ball in dangers areas, where much-vaunted defenders of bygone eras would have just hoofed it into the stands. Modern full backs are judged almost as much, if not more increasingly, on their attacking output, as opposed to their defensive output.
So my question, and I think Luke Shaw's frustration, is - "if our defenders/midfielders are held to these standards, why aren't our attacking players?".
The reason we have been terrible this season is not because AWB supposedly 'can't cross' or because 'Maguire takes too long on the ball'. We have been terrible because we are SO easy to play against. Rangnick highlighted it again yesterday. The opposition are able to walk past our front 4/5 with absolutely no effort, and constantly be at the back 5/6 under zero pressure. When we concede goals, who gets the blame? The defensive/midfield players...but this is outdated, 'old-school' thinking that needs to die. It might be a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - you defend as a team. Every goal you concede is on the team, as it's EVERY players responsibility to defend, just like it is now every players responsibility to be involved in the attacks.
So, some people, usually the posters who have never played the game, will miss my point here, and I'll just get a load of responses like "well Maguire and Shaw have done XYZ so they have no right to complain"...so please, save me the time if you're going to write that and piss off to the 'Player Performance' threads, where you can continue to blame them for everything.
I personally don't believe you accuse the defensive players of not trying. Despite some of their limitations, can any poster, hand on heart, honestly with a straight face tell me Maguire or AWB or Shaw or Fred or McTominay don't try and don't put in the effort? I don't rate Fred. I don't especially rate McTominay. In my opinion, they will need to be replaced if we want to win trophies. However, I think yo can be critical of some of their mistakes, but I don't think you can ever say they don't care or don't try. I also think they are filling their part of the bargain, in that they are pushing higher up the pitch and they are trying to pass the ball out from the back (Shaw and Maguire are the two players who have the ball most often in our team).
So, to put this simpler, the defenders are fulfilling their half of the 'progressive football' bargain (with mixed results, granted), but the attackers are not. They are walking around the pitch, running at half-pace, throwing their arms around and moaning when things don't go their way and generally just playing within themselves when they don't have the ball. So if the attackers are not fulfilling their half of the bargain, if I was Maguire, AWB, Shaw etc....I would be tempted to say, "OK, bollocks to you then....we're just going to look after our own backs, set the defensive line halfway in our own half and hoof anything that comes near us into the stands". I 100% guarantee they would much prefer this, it's a much, much simpler way to defend. Yet they don't. They keep going every week, doing what is asked of them, and then get scapegoated on here and in the media when we inevitably concede goals due to how shockingly open we are.
In my opinion, our defenders, plus our CMs have been well and truly hung out to dry this season. Yet still, people defend Ronaldo, Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood, Fernandes etc...and the abuse the defensive players get borders on slander at times. Yes, the likes of Rashford have been criticised, but have they changed anything? I haven't seen it. Still the same old, same old every week.
On top of all this, the forward players earn a ridiculous amount of money compared to the defensive players, due to our completely f**ked wage structure. Ronaldo, Cavani, Rashford and Sancho alone earn £1.4m a week. Imagine being Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Fred, McTominay, giving everything they can for the club and their teammates (with mistakes at times, yes, but that's not my point) and seeing those chancers wandering around in front of them picking up their salaries whilst barely breaking a sweat. Then guess what...who gets all the abuse online and in the studio? The usual suspects!
The fact a 21 year old lad can be signed in the Summer and earn £350K, twice as much as our club captain, would say to me we as a club don't value our defensive players and the heirarchy is clear.
For me, this is the divide Luke Shaw was talking about. The defensive half of the team has it's faults, but they are trying to do their best for the team and for their teammates.
The attacking players are not fulfilling their half of the bargain. They are lazy, static and disinterested in defending, and are hanging out their teammates to dry in the process. It's NOT about individual quality and being 'better footballers', it's about attitude and who is working hard for their teammates.
Shaw isn't the only person to point out this season the complete lack of pressing, intensity and physicality from the forwards. It's been mentioned by Rangnick in at least two of his post-game interviews, and indeed Rashford and Fernandes have both been left out recently. It has also been covered, to a certain degree, by the Sky Sports team, who have highlighted the lack of defensive effort from the forwards.
Despite this, it feels to me like the players who are consistently and constantly panned on this forum and in the press are the defensive players. Shaw himself has come in for a tonne of criticism. Maguire is blamed for every goal we concede. You can't hear AWBs name mentioned without someone adding "isn't that good on the ball". Jones has been completely ridiculed. Lindelof is criticised for his lack of physicality and aerial ability. McTominay and Fred are singled out every single game by the Sky Sports pundits, and they pull no punches with them whatsoever.
Modern football, more than ever, is a team game. Modern defenders are expected to take risks. They are asked to play much higher up the pitch then their 90s/00s counterparts. They are asked to help the team play out from the back by retaining possession and taking the ball in dangers areas, where much-vaunted defenders of bygone eras would have just hoofed it into the stands. Modern full backs are judged almost as much, if not more increasingly, on their attacking output, as opposed to their defensive output.
So my question, and I think Luke Shaw's frustration, is - "if our defenders/midfielders are held to these standards, why aren't our attacking players?".
The reason we have been terrible this season is not because AWB supposedly 'can't cross' or because 'Maguire takes too long on the ball'. We have been terrible because we are SO easy to play against. Rangnick highlighted it again yesterday. The opposition are able to walk past our front 4/5 with absolutely no effort, and constantly be at the back 5/6 under zero pressure. When we concede goals, who gets the blame? The defensive/midfield players...but this is outdated, 'old-school' thinking that needs to die. It might be a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - you defend as a team. Every goal you concede is on the team, as it's EVERY players responsibility to defend, just like it is now every players responsibility to be involved in the attacks.
So, some people, usually the posters who have never played the game, will miss my point here, and I'll just get a load of responses like "well Maguire and Shaw have done XYZ so they have no right to complain"...so please, save me the time if you're going to write that and piss off to the 'Player Performance' threads, where you can continue to blame them for everything.
I personally don't believe you accuse the defensive players of not trying. Despite some of their limitations, can any poster, hand on heart, honestly with a straight face tell me Maguire or AWB or Shaw or Fred or McTominay don't try and don't put in the effort? I don't rate Fred. I don't especially rate McTominay. In my opinion, they will need to be replaced if we want to win trophies. However, I think yo can be critical of some of their mistakes, but I don't think you can ever say they don't care or don't try. I also think they are filling their part of the bargain, in that they are pushing higher up the pitch and they are trying to pass the ball out from the back (Shaw and Maguire are the two players who have the ball most often in our team).
So, to put this simpler, the defenders are fulfilling their half of the 'progressive football' bargain (with mixed results, granted), but the attackers are not. They are walking around the pitch, running at half-pace, throwing their arms around and moaning when things don't go their way and generally just playing within themselves when they don't have the ball. So if the attackers are not fulfilling their half of the bargain, if I was Maguire, AWB, Shaw etc....I would be tempted to say, "OK, bollocks to you then....we're just going to look after our own backs, set the defensive line halfway in our own half and hoof anything that comes near us into the stands". I 100% guarantee they would much prefer this, it's a much, much simpler way to defend. Yet they don't. They keep going every week, doing what is asked of them, and then get scapegoated on here and in the media when we inevitably concede goals due to how shockingly open we are.
In my opinion, our defenders, plus our CMs have been well and truly hung out to dry this season. Yet still, people defend Ronaldo, Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood, Fernandes etc...and the abuse the defensive players get borders on slander at times. Yes, the likes of Rashford have been criticised, but have they changed anything? I haven't seen it. Still the same old, same old every week.
On top of all this, the forward players earn a ridiculous amount of money compared to the defensive players, due to our completely f**ked wage structure. Ronaldo, Cavani, Rashford and Sancho alone earn £1.4m a week. Imagine being Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Fred, McTominay, giving everything they can for the club and their teammates (with mistakes at times, yes, but that's not my point) and seeing those chancers wandering around in front of them picking up their salaries whilst barely breaking a sweat. Then guess what...who gets all the abuse online and in the studio? The usual suspects!
The fact a 21 year old lad can be signed in the Summer and earn £350K, twice as much as our club captain, would say to me we as a club don't value our defensive players and the heirarchy is clear.
For me, this is the divide Luke Shaw was talking about. The defensive half of the team has it's faults, but they are trying to do their best for the team and for their teammates.
The attacking players are not fulfilling their half of the bargain. They are lazy, static and disinterested in defending, and are hanging out their teammates to dry in the process. It's NOT about individual quality and being 'better footballers', it's about attitude and who is working hard for their teammates.
It's normal to an extent but we're on another level. Every manager will come in and find 2 or 3 players who he doesn't feel will fit into his system and push them out of the team but we always look like we need a complete fecking overhaul. I mean the only signing Ole made you could say looks like he's good enough for the next manager is Bruno, and even he has gone to shite. That's mental whatever way you look at it. Clubs like Chelsea and Real are far, far better at building a solid foundation for the next manager. Just look at what Tuchel did at Chelsea, or Conte before him, or Mourinho etc. etc.
I think listening to the interview is a lot more enlightening than reading the snippets people want to edit, and as ever you have to be mindful of the interviewer leading questions that can only be answered in one way,
Having listened to the interview I found it less outrageous than and more reasonable than the soundbites I initially got, and TBH I am disappointed, I thought wow this may be the start of a shake up, but in reality other than the press spinning it is a minor shudder on the richter scale.
Having listened to the interview I found it less outrageous than and more reasonable than the soundbites I initially got, and TBH I am disappointed, I thought wow this may be the start of a shake up, but in reality other than the press spinning it is a minor shudder on the richter scale.
Maybe its the players that don't mind finishing at 5 vs those that are scared of the dark
People wonder why footballer interviews are so bland with generic answers..
A player offers genuine criticism and half his own fanbase goes bloody nuts over saying something we are all thinking.
A player offers genuine criticism and half his own fanbase goes bloody nuts over saying something we are all thinking.
I think Rangnick and his staff know where the weakness is but doing something about it will not happen this window.
Midfield is the main problem. We are being outplayed here almost every game, and by teams at the lower end of the table. I am really surprised that we have not changed things in this department, Maybe change to a 4-3-1-2.
Midfield is the main problem. We are being outplayed here almost every game, and by teams at the lower end of the table. I am really surprised that we have not changed things in this department, Maybe change to a 4-3-1-2.
Well there you are. It’s not that simple.
The stuff you are rightly calling out is a major problem; no doubt about that. There are other problems though:
- players that are past it
- players that are unfathomably inconsistent
Funny when players usually give interviews and its the usual cliche stuff, people complain about them not being honest. Now we have a player being honest and people are complaining about him and saying to drop/sell him.
this thread is brilliant
people are now inventing a split between the English and Portuguese lads based on a made up quote
people are now inventing a split between the English and Portuguese lads based on a made up quote
Yeah, our whole transfer “strategy” post-Fergie has been a clusterfeck. I’m still hoping our current squad isn’t quite the pile of steaming dogshit you’d think based on our start to this season. They’re definitely a lot better than they looked last night.
I'm getting the vibe that Ronaldo isn't on the Gegenpress train and neither is Bruno. The former isn't cut out for it and the latter has gone from superstar to supersub. I wonder who else is in the whingers carriage because they know they won't fit in? Maguire possibly. AWB? Rashford? Lingard?
If it reaches critical mass then Ralf has a problem.
I can't really substantiate this beyond hints, trying to decode body language and what's been said, and other straws in the wind. It's just a vibe. But it's hard to argue that the players even tried to high press yesterday so something is surely not quite right.
If it reaches critical mass then Ralf has a problem.
I can't really substantiate this beyond hints, trying to decode body language and what's been said, and other straws in the wind. It's just a vibe. But it's hard to argue that the players even tried to high press yesterday so something is surely not quite right.
I agree, and reading between the lines of what Shaw was trying to get over, everything is not right in the club, there is no togetherness. Rangnick has a bigger problem on his hands than he thought.
Depends doesn’t it? If he didn’t want to leave perhaps he’d be willing to put a shift in and play well like he did before. If that was the case then yes, he would start.
I agree with a lot of this. The problem is that the average football fan has a very limited understanding of the game and in their mind Ole-ball makes sense. "Football is a simple game". No it's not. It hasn't been in a long time. It worried me how pleased so many of our fans were for 90% of Oles time at the club. They would watch us get outplayed week after week by teams that ranged from title contenders to relegation fodder but as long as a couple of our star players pulled a goal out of the bag and we won they were happy. They didn't care that the performance was disjointed, poor and relied on an opposition missing too many opportunities while we take ours. Unsurprisingly, the biggest weakness of most smaller teams is their striker. Top teams convert more of their chances because they have the top players.
This leads onto the next point. When we concede goals, the easy answer is that our defence were at fault. The easy answer is that Maguire was beaten for pace or wasn't in the right place to make a tackle. Don't get me wrong, defenders make mistakes but when a player is out of position because he is covering another player who was themselves out of position because the midfield has gone missing, thats not as simple. Again, football at the sharp end is a highly tactical and technical game.
The best teams are the most unified and where every player knows their job, their role and where they should be relative to their teammates. You look at any of the top teams, City, Liverpool, Chelsea or Bayern and they all put the team first. They score team goals and if you aren't pulling your weight you will be replaced by someone who does. If you don't fit the system you will be replaced.
Whenever people make the argument that Ronaldo can't be part of the problem because hes a goal machine and just needs service its so frustrating and points to how people see football. They see it as an overly simplistic numbers game. If Ronaldo scores 20 goals in a low scoring team then he must be indispensable right? What if the team would have scored 40 more goals without Ronaldo? Is he still indispensable? If your lack of work rate and inability to do as you are told is costing your team not only goals at the back but breaking up your attacks then perhaps your goal contributions would need to be astronomical to justify your place.
No other top team in world football plays like United and there is a reason for that.
Until we fix the personnel and their attitudes I think RR is going to have almost 0 impact as our manager. I think any long term manager is going to have the same issues. Bringing Ronaldo back has been an awful decision IMO and we are inevitably going to pay for it for the next 3+ years. Yes he is in fantastic physical shape but anyone who knows much about physiology knows that being in Ronaldos shape is achievable until you are much older than he is. Unfortunately it doesn't mean that you are in perfect shape for elite level football or that your fitness levels are as high as someone with a bit more "dough" on them. I think it was Rodri or Cancelo who scored in the last City game and he took his shirt off and he was in decent shape but still had a bit of fat there. I would wager that he covers far more ground every game vs Ronaldo.
Thats a bit harsh imo. We are looking better at the back, the brainfarts are less, DDG is trying to sweep more than he did enabling the back four to play a slightly higher line, small things, granted, but at least Im not watching each game expecting us to defend like the chuckle brothers on meth and get pumped 4/5 nil.
I agree, it’s fecking shambolic and unfortunately the blame lies at Solskjaers door for this mess.
We need another clear out, and I can’t for the life of me understand why he didn’t insist Pogba, Martial and Lingard were sold during the summer and the funds reinvested back into the midfield. We could have got Rice and Neves at least and be much better balanced than we currently are.
Would Rooney have had a better and longer lasting career if he was in shape?
I would say yes. He was finished in his early 30's. His level of talent is very different to Luke Shaws too.
A professional footballer should never aim to be overweight. There are many benefits of not being overweight for a footballer. It's not about modelling.
Think we have a few in our team that are more bothered about how many abs they have than being physically and mentally fit to play football. Some are more bothered about their image than if they are great at football. Ronaldo is in great shape but agree with you that the PL game is now passing him by. So it is either sell him or let him loiter in the penalty area and make sure we provide the chances. If they are expecting him to run about like a 20 year old, dream on.
Shaw said absolutely nothing wrong, the hysteria here is unbelievable, I guess not everyone watched the video.
The balance of the team is not right and it hasn’t been for 6 months.
Greenwood should not be playing in the wing. We need to fit Bruno, Rashford and Sancho into that front four consistently l think. I know they’re not having the best season until now but we need more change from them.
The balance of the team is not right and it hasn’t been for 6 months.
Greenwood should not be playing in the wing. We need to fit Bruno, Rashford and Sancho into that front four consistently l think. I know they’re not having the best season until now but we need more change from them.
I did and it is shite.
He is one of the laziest players out there, ignores his defensive responsibilities, is out of positioning more often than not and has been one of the worst performing players this season and has been the same for the majority of his time here. He's talking about not being together on the pitch, when he himself ignores his own duties, strolls back to defend and expects to get bailed out by others time and time again. Burnley last week was a good example, leaving Maguire to cover the left channel on his own several times.
Last season was his best, but that should be classed as a base level for a player who is expected to be a top player for a big team, not an anomaly. He should have built on that and moved up a gear. But what has he done? Reverted to type and his same old lazy ways again.
And there he is, talking about aggression, intensity and motivation in an even more monotone robotic voice than Maguire. All said while looking down at the ground for most of it.
Ferguson literally sent Rooney away to America mis-season to shapen up at Shaw's age and he was finished a few years later so I genuinely can't think of a worse example to make your point.
Yes you don't have want your players carrying too much fat, but they can also get obsessed with being an adonis. Just make sure you are in great shape to play.
I wish I had the ability to hand out 'likes', we need more posts like this in the main forums regularly. You clearly understand what it means to actually play football, and the difference between 'modern football' (say 2008 onwards) and everything that went before it, which to my mind was virtually a different sport.
The scary thing is, it wouldn't bother me if it were just idiots on here who didn't understand this...I see no evidence from our Board and the 'senior football people' that THEY understand this!