Last 20: LWDLWLWDLL | WDWWDWDWLW

Siorac said:
The previous 10 weren't unbeaten either, it was 5-4-1. We lost the FA Cup semi-final against Leicester City during that run. If we go back another 10 games, it's 5-3-2. That's 19 wins in the last 40. That is pretty consistent mediocrity, overall.

Which is why it's ridiculous to accuse critics of knee-jerking over this season's results only. The issue is that we have been playing like this for a long time and it looks like we aren't getting better either.
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Id just looked at PL games but ok.

And if someone had said it was knee jerk, you’d be right.. I certainly haven’t. Point is not whether form has been great (it hasn’t) .. it’s just that picking a run of average results is always going to create a case. Maybe a comment saying “why has our form dropped so dramatically from the previous run of games?” and show both as a comparison?
 
That form cannot carry on. The only comfort I'm taking so far this season is that we are 4th, close to the top being only 2 points behind and we aren't even playing well yet.

We have played better football than we currently are under Ole, and if we can get back to and beyond that level, with the better calibre of player we currently have, then we should be fighting near the top pretty quickly.

However, if this form carries on for too much longer then of course he's going to have to be let go. You can't sign Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo and results not improve from last season. Tough run coming up over the next 2 months as well so I feel it will be the making or breaking of him.
 
It will always be like this. The team don’t have a platform to build consistency. We have great players to get results but that will only go so far when almost every other club has a platform. To me we look the worst coached team in the league, but we possibly have the best squad of players in the league and get battered performance wise by Southampton, Wolves, Villereal, Villa and Everton. 1 point from Villa and Everton at home. Never mind 20 games….the last 2 are beyond ridiculous. As for those wanting longer periods included, has it not pretty much been shown that even over 40 games our form is pretty much identical.
 
Green_Red said:
Competitive games only.

Takes us back to the home win against Burnley on 18th April 2021.

We've only managed 2 wins in a row once in our last 20, twice if we look at last 21.

The best unbeaten streak we've managed in 20 games is 4 games. Shocking.

For some balance:
The 10 games preceding this last 20 was 5W, 4D and 1L (against Leicester in the FA Cup SF).

We also finished 2nd in the league, a mere 12 points off the top. And, we've also got the current longest away fixtures without a loss (in the Premier League), incredible really considering the above form.
Click to expand...
What’s your point? You can prove anything with Statistics.

Where’s the context? Let’s talk on a competition by competition basis. Let’s consider injuries, signings, and other variables that impact our form. Let’s talk about who we played, and their form vs ours.

Last season is done, talk to me about this season.

WDWWLWLLWD - Woot! We are unbeaten in October! We have lost less than a 3rd of our games so far this season. We’ve won half! I’m sure you’ll all rush to discredit that so it proves what a pointless stat it is.

This is just a pointless attempt to bash the team/manager which is every bit as valid/invalid as our unbeaten away run record. Like I said, You can prove anything by cherry picking stats but what ultimately matters is what we win, and where we finish in the league - that our come is 8 months away and anything can happen. But hey, you do you:rolleyes:
 
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Bilbo said:
Why wouldn't he? Even unrelated topics seem to be shovelled into more manager bashing within a handful of posts. It's almost as if everybody hasn't had ample opportunities to get their points across.
Click to expand...

I was taking the piss mate.
 
3 of those games came in 5 days and when we pretty much rotated the 11 to avoid fatigue and injuries...all the while having 2nd place sewn up.

So, this thread is a bit dumb in my opinion.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Id just looked at PL games but ok.

And if someone had said it was knee jerk, you’d be right.. I certainly haven’t. Point is not whether form has been great (it hasn’t) .. it’s just that picking a run of average results is always going to create a case. Maybe a comment saying “why has our form dropped so dramatically from the previous run of games?” and show both as a comparison?
Click to expand...
But this is exactly the point: our form hasn't really 'dropped', certainly not dramatically. It's been similar for about 40 games now, going back all the way to January. We started losing more instead of drawing but the win% is more or less the same.
 
Doesn't the Villarreal match officially go down as a draw in the record books as that was the score after 90 minutes? Extra time and penalties don't count as wins or losses in that regard usually.

That doesn't make much difference although it does wipe out the longest unbeaten run in this sequence of matches being 4 games and makes it 7 instead.

I know they're not all league games so feel free to discard but thinking about what the points return would be if they were helps me process stuff like this so W9 D5 (including Villarreal), L6 for what would have been 32 points if they were. Extrapolated over a 38 game run that's 60.8 which wouldn't really be what we're aiming for.

Chucking the previous 10 in there takes us to W14 D9 L7 for 51 in 30, what would be 64.6 over 38.

Might as well do the whole previous 38 in all comps while I'm at it. 19-12-7 for what would be 69.

A pattern of declining form over the duration there and 69 from 38 is again below what we'd like to see if it were a league campaign.
 
Chipper said:
Doesn't the Villarreal match officially go down as a draw in the record books as that was the score after 90 minutes? Extra time and penalties don't count as wins or losses in that regard usually.

That doesn't make much difference although it does wipe out the longest unbeaten run in this sequence of matches being 4 games and makes it 7 instead.

I know they're not all league games so feel free to discard but thinking about what the points return would be if they were helps me process stuff like this so W9 D5 (including Villarreal), L6 for what would have been 32 points if they were. Extrapolated over a 38 game run that's 60.8 which wouldn't really be what we're aiming for.

Chucking the previous 10 in there takes us to W14 D9 L7 for 51 in 30, what would be 64.6 over 38.

Might as well do the whole previous 38 in all comps while I'm at it. 19-12-7 for what would be 69.

A pattern of declining form over the duration there and 69 from 38 is again below what we'd like to see if it were a league campaign.
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Is this a troll?
 
cyberman said:
Is this a troll?
Click to expand...

No. Why do you ask?

Edit: Genuinely taken aback by your question. Are you trolling?

Why would a post where someone analyses the form of the last 38 matches of the football team they support be seen as trolling as it's easy for fans to think in blocks of 38 as that's how long league campaigns are? Especially so as it's in a thread that was started to analyse the last 20 and then someone else suggested throwing in the previous 10 a few posts later for context? I don't get why you'd think I was trolling at all. Very strange question on your part.
 
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We've only won 3+ in a row once in 2021 and that included both legs against Granada. We simply don't have the consistency to challenge.

Also just for arguments sake the first 10 games of Jose's infamous 3rd season that people never stop going on about was 4 wins, 3 draws, 3 defeats. We're currently 5 wins, 2 draws, 3 defeats. Basically De Gea's penalty save away from the same record.
 
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Backs up the 'moments FC' argument. It shows the team isn't a well oiled methodical winning machine, lots of losses in there too, so we can't even show that we can be hard to beat. We do have the away run though...
 
Chipper said:
No. Why do you ask?

Edit: Genuinely taken aback by your question. Are you trolling?

Why would a post where someone analyses the form of the last 38 matches the football team they support be seen as trolling as it's easy for fans to think in blocks of 38 as that's how long league campaigns are? Especially so as it's in a thread that was started to analyse the last 20 and then someone else suggested throwing in the previous 10 a few posts later for context? I don't get why you'd think I was trolling at all. Very strange question on your part.
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Ok. Villarreal is a considered a win?
 
cyberman said:
Ok. Villarreal is a considered a win?
Click to expand...

No. What are you talking about?

OP had last season's Europa League final against Villarreal down as a loss, I'm saying it's considered a draw in the record books because it literally is. That's how these results are always written. Draw with an asterisk next to it. If we'd have won in extra time or in the penalty shoot out it would still be a draw in the record books with an asterisk next to it.
 
Can't be bothered to check but the form from the Everton game last season, at a time when Ole was seriously in major trouble, right up until the Sheffield United loss at home was exceptional. If memory serves there were a lot of tight games though that could have gone either way.

I'm never really sure what to expect from this team; wouldn't surprise me if we went through October/November without a league defeat but then feck everything up in December.
 
Siorac said:
He's talking about the Europa League final, not the CL group game.
Click to expand...

That Europa final will haunt me.
The way Ole just froze will haunt me.
Its a European trophy left behind due to a manager being absolutely clueless.

He should have been moved into a general role that oversees the long term strategy of the company then, and a new first team coach brought in.

We are going around in circles with him pulling the first team strings. Him upstairs with a progressive first team manager could lead the company back to being competetive
 
PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPGTimeline
1172+24402Now
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05Bruno
776+5281,4
1244+13402Got the job

Make of that what you wish.
 
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Green_Red said:
Competitive games only.

Takes us back to the home win against Burnley on 18th April 2021.

We've only managed 2 wins in a row once in our last 20, twice if we look at last 21.

The best unbeaten streak we've managed in 20 games is 4 games. Shocking.

For some balance:
The 10 games preceding this last 20 was 5W, 4D and 1L (against Leicester in the FA Cup SF).

We also finished 2nd in the league, a mere 12 points off the top. And, we've also got the current longest away fixtures without a loss (in the Premier League), incredible really considering the above form.
Click to expand...
Won't win premiership with those stats.
 
McGrathsipan said:
That Europa final will haunt me.
The way Ole just froze will haunt me.
Its a European trophy left behind due to a manager being absolutely clueless.

He should have been moved into a general role that oversees the long term strategy of the company then, and a new first team coach brought in.

We are going around in circles with him pulling the first team strings. Him upstairs with a progressive first team manager could lead the company back to being competetive
Click to expand...
That game was when Ole lost me. Saving up all your subs for penalties against Villlarreal while you're not creating anything and being out played.
 
Korwas said:
Form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

Form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPG
1172+24402
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05
776+5281,4
1244+13402

Make of that what you wish.
Click to expand...
Is this all competitions, or Premier League only?
 
Siorac said:
The previous 10 weren't unbeaten either, it was 5-4-1. We lost the FA Cup semi-final against Leicester City during that run. If we go back another 10 games, it's 5-3-2. That's 19 wins in the last 40. That is pretty consistent mediocrity, overall.

Which is why it's ridiculous to accuse critics of knee-jerking over this season's results only. The issue is that we have been playing like this for a long time and it looks like we aren't getting better either.
Click to expand...
Well, don't you know you can't put those games together as we didn't have the world-class players that we bought this summer and had a shit squad, or something like that.
 
cyberman said:
Ah that makes sense!
Apologies @Chipper
Click to expand...

No worries. I'll admit I was getting all defensive there but I didn't know what you were on about! :D

I could have specified which Villarreal match I was talking about for clarity seeing as we played them twice in this run of 20 but on the other hand there was only one that had anything to do with extra time and penalties so I would have hoped it was clear anyway.
 
Korwas said:
PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPG
1172+24402
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05
776+5281,4
1244+13402

Make of that what you wish.
Click to expand...
Do you think the most recent 10/20 are more relevant to a discussion about out current form, than games that took place this time last year? Thats all the point is of this thread, to show our current form, our last 20. It can be 10, 20, 30, games, whichever you deem to be recent, I would say last 6 months is the most telling as it shows a clear downward trend in our form, regardless of the signings we've made and money we've spent.

OGS has overseen some brilliant form for Man Utd, but not recently. If you're going to analyse a managers current position it can't be more than 6 months for it to be fair. Right now, regardless of how well we did in the 6 months leading up to April, the form is appalling, with no sign of changing any time soon. Maybe the form will change, then we're good, but as supporters of the football club first, we need to take off our blinkers and accept that currently (last 6 months) Ole has not been delivering.

If people use it to bash the manager, thats not my problem, I am not responsible for that last 6 months.
 
Just gets a bit tiring doesn’t it? Choose the last 20 matches which include a loss in an away leg of a tie where we won 6-2 in the first leg, two losses when we had to play 3 matches in five days in circumstances where we were more or less guaranteed to finish 2nd and put down the Europa final as a loss when pretty much any stats will show it as a draw. Korwas’s table looks a lot more balanced.

We haven’t started this season as well as might have been expected, albeit we are bedding in three new first team signings so some teething issues are expected. We’ve got a tough run of matches coming up so let’s see what the position looks like after 20 games this season, which will be a much fairer time to reflect.
 
TBH I am not sure these kind of figures help, each match was different, some we clearly won, some we lost that we shouldn't have, some we won when we shouldn't have, similarly some we drew when it could have gone either way.

What worries me is that there still seems to be a lack of confidence of knowing what to do in certain situations and how to effect situations, how to change a game, how to respond to set backs (10 men etc.).

When we had less 'top players' it was regrettable, but understandable, now we have a WC keeper back to form (so it seems) we've recruited a WC CB, our Left Back is back to his old form, we have two 'world class' players in Bruno and Pogba and CR and Cavani's records stand as testament to our experience up front; in addition we have Rashford returning soon, Greenwood and Sancho both capable of marvellous individual skills, and even Martial looking the part, at least for half a game on Saturday.

We must be making some progress, our position in PL, reaching semis and finals (albeit not winning any silverware), some magical last minute goals, saves in DeGea's case, all suggest progress... but it doesn't feel like it... why?

Can't speak for others but for me, its because I turn up at OT and no matter who the opposition, I am not sure we will win?
This is not right, no way, if it was a top team then OK would hope if not expect a win, now I am turning up hoping, whatever the opposition, for a win...am I coming down with something?
 
Korwas said:
PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPGTimeline
1172+24402Now
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05Bruno
776+5281,4
1244+13402Got the job

Make of that what you wish.
Click to expand...


Dont let the facts and stats get in the way here mate.

Don't be ruining the Ole bashing for everyone.



Last 38 games we've been way ahead of the rest. And still up the table even now, even with the manager seemily on his way out.
 
IMO You really shouldn't jump a summer and take last season's matches to see a pattern. Summer transfers can change lot of dynamics. Also players get tired towards the end of season which can impact the results.

I think 7 matches this season is a good sample to judge how current team composition is, how they are working as a unit, the pattern of play etc.

My worry is, more than the results the way we are playing this year is somehow worse than last year, especially defensively. Also last year the team was playing better against high press, this year resembles 2019.

I hope they all get their act together fast otherwise Oct to Nov fixtures can be unforgiving.
 
Korwas said:
PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPGTimeline
1172+24402Now
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05Bruno
776+5281,4
1244+13402Got the job

Make of that what you wish.
Click to expand...
Who would have thought going back an entire seasons worth of fixtures when this season has just started would show a table like how last year's PL finished.
 
There's no consistency

Is it true that at Cardiff City Ole was known as a bit of a tinkerman? In terms of changing a settled team too much upsetting the rhythm? I think that's what's going to happen to United this season. Ole needs to find a settled team and stick with it. Changing the team after the dramatic late win on the Wednesday was madness with an international break afterwards there was no need, it stopped any momentum and gave Everton a huge lift before kickoff.
 
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Even in a thread based on actual stats and not discussing the quality of football, I’m not seeing many compelling arguments for Ole? Given the outlay and wages this club has given him and the squad he’s built over numerous transfer windows, we are still inconsistent and not in a position to challenge.
And then you think about the poor quality of our football. Not now, nor ever will Ole be good enough to get us challenging properly. The stats even back up what we see week in, week out.
 
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