Kanye West is 32

WUM's for the sake of nothing going on in your personal lives huh?

The people who need to grow up are the ones trying to force opinion as fact to fans of an artist... I don't think it gets any more immature than that.
 
AdZzUtd said:
An album therefore that digitally enhances his voice to make it seem like he is singing well. Not for me. This goes for most pop-stars too. No soul or hardwork in the studio anymore.
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I spent 10 hours today in the studio working with the guy who I auditioned for. I'm the first to hold my hand up and admit I haven't a clue when it comes to the technical side of studio recording. He showed me the auto tuner device after a conversation we had about boybands. It was pretty fecking unreal to be honest. I couldn't believe the ability it had.

Now in saying that, anyone with a decent enough ear will know straight away where a singer has fecked up or utterly failed in the studio and the auto-tuner has fixed it. What is absolutely incredible however is that the tone and style this auto tuner gives off is now becoming popular !! It's being used like the Wah pedal was used in 70s disco and funk.

So really and truly, all you have to do now is look good to become a frontman and let the songwrtiers look after the music. You'll have hordes of people who like the auto-tune sound and you'll have the same people liking the look and image of the frontman/woman. All you have to do is mime live to get away with it and people will still flock to watch the show.

Definitely not for me, however, music is so subjective that you cannot throw stones at listeners. The producers are only giving the customers what they want, and you certainly can't blame someone for having what you consider to be shit taste in music.

Music is all about how it makes you feel. If you get off on lyrics then so be it. If you get off on a catchy beat then so be it. If you get off on a technical guitar solo then happy days. If a combination of all 3 floats your boat then listen to the style that most suits your taste. It's like chosing a beer.

This is pretty much why I never get offended if someone dislikes the music I write, because I get a buzz out of it, and I know that where it's not one person's cup of tea, it's another person's inspiration.
 
Kinky Melinky said:
This is pretty much why I never get offended if someone dislikes the music I write, because I get a buzz out of it, and I know that where it's not one person's cup of tea, it's another person's inspiration.
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Well said mate, well said.

I think this should apply to this thread and pretty much close this conversation (Although we know someone will come to bat to start the wummery again), good music is an opinion, not a fact, let the sales and traffic be the commercial opinion.
 
Kinky Melinky said:
Slightly off the topic Baldwin. What is it you do ?
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I'm not sure I want to get into that too much... I live outside the UK and work as a musician but more in the classical side of things these days... However, I studied for 8 years as a music student in London and got by financially by playing in a huge range of commercial recording sessions. I've also toured a lot with a lot of different 'pop'/commercial artists.

I agree with every word of your post by the way a few posts up. I have a close family member who writes commercial/film/TV work and as such I've learnt more about modern recording studios from him. He talks a lot about what you mentioned - how surprisingly advanced technology is.

I know I've gone a bit over the top in this thread, it just annoys me to see how gullible today's young audience is and how they don't really realise what they're listening to and being sold.

You're right about the auto-tuner becoming used now purposefully as an audible effect. It's called the 'Cher effect' after that 'If you believe' song she released in the early '90's - very widespread now.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
I'm not sure I want to get into that too much... I live outside the UK and work as a musician but more in the classical side of things these days... However, I studied for 8 years as a music student in London and got by financially by playing in a huge range of commercial recording sessions. I've also toured a lot with a lot of different 'pop'/commercial artists.

I agree with every word of your post by the way a few posts up. I have a close family member who writes commercial/film/TV work and as such I've learnt more about modern recording studios from him. He talks a lot about what you mentioned - how surprisingly advanced technology is.

I know I've gone a bit over the top in this thread, it just annoys me to see how gullible today's young audience is and how they don't really realise what they're listening to and being sold.

You're right about the auto-tuner becoming used now purposefully as an audible effect. It's called the 'Cher effect' after that 'If you believe' song she released in the early '90's - very widespread now.
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That's cool man but Kanye has worked extremely hard to get where he is despite the commercial tracks he releases these days. You have to check out some of his earlier albums and mix tapes to realize how truly talented he is, and remember he does produce his own beats. How many rappers actually do that? I've tried myself and it is way harder than it looks.

His last album for me is a stain on his remarkable career but he felt he had to release those songs so who am I to stop him? He said he had melodies in his heart he had to get out and he did so. I'm sure his next album he would be back to his usual quality in lyrics and production. I guess some hatred for Kanye does come from his arrogance which can be annoying but I like his lyric "Now I can let these dream killers kill my self-esteem/ or use my arrogance as a steam to power my dream."
 
Did I mention that I saw Kanye West live and it was thee worst live show that I have ever seen and I've seen the Thompson Twins live.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
It's called the 'Cher effect' after that 'If you believe' song she released in the early '90's - very widespread now.
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:lol:

That's right ! I remember that song. I was out the other night and we were talking about this very topic about the auto-tuner becoming an instrument in it's own right.

I know what you're saying about young people not being aware of what they are being sold, and to a large degree I agree with you. Problem is, I'm coming from a slightly older generation. I grew up listening to Pearl Jam and Soundgarden; bands that played instrument and by in large didn't try and pull the wool over people's eyes. But I am lining myself up for a beating here by even claiming that producers are pulling the wool over young people's eyes because of the fact that the auto-tuner has become an instrument. One could maybe even go as far as to say that if the latest frontman/woman came out with an album that didn't have the Cher effect, young people would be up in arms at it's style and feel.

I think it's ultimately down to honesty and integrity. I would sooner have a lesser produced album out and sound great live, then have an overly-produced album out and sound like a ball of shite live.

I think it's also about the amount of respect one has for authetic music......but then you open up the huge can of worms:

'what is authetic music ?'

Then we have to look at the evolution of music over the past 800 years, acknowledge that groundbreaking new styles were shunned by their predecessors and also consider that styles that were shunned suddenly became widely accepted as music. I could go on and on.......but I know you know where I'm going.

Each person has to be honest to their own selves. If you can put your head on your pillow at night and know you've been as true as you possibly can to both music and it's listeners then you're not doing too badly. If you can't, then don't expect music respect from fellow musicians
 
Kinky Melinky said:
:lol:

That's right ! I remember that song. I was out the other night and we were talking about this very topic about the auto-tuner becoming an instrument in it's own right.

I know what you're saying about young people not being aware of what they are being sold, and to a large degree I agree with you. Problem is, I'm coming from a slightly older generation. I grew up listening to Pearl Jam and Soundgarden; bands that played instrument and by in large didn't try and pull the wool over people's eyes. But I am lining myself up for a beating here by even claiming that producers are pulling the wool over young people's eyes because of the fact that the auto-tuner has become an instrument. One could maybe even go as far as to say that if the latest frontman/woman came out with an album that didn't have the Cher effect, young people would be up in arms at it's style and feel.

I think it's ultimately down to honesty and integrity. I would sooner have a lesser produced album out and sound great live, then have an overly-produced album out and sound like a ball of shite live.
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True - in fact it's hard to think of anyone these days who releases albums with nothing done to their voice. Looking for an album without it would be like looking for a magazine with no airbrushing on the cover - which is such a shame for music.

The frightening thing is that the very latest technology is capable of auto-tuning an artist's voice live on stage - in the future we'll never know if what we're listening to - even live - is pure human endeavour or technology manipulating it.

As I said earlier in the thread, sports fans would never stand for having their passion so upturned by money men. We might fall for singers who can't sing but I guess we'll never get duped by footballers who can't kick a ball but look good and sell merchandise...
 
Boss said:
Where did you see it? Can you tell me why he was so bad:lol:
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Sydney in 06 or 07 I think it was. Out of tune much of the time and some of his songs went on for ever and ever. That I didn't like many/most/all of them didn't help and being a stadium concert made it all so much worse. I really wish that U2 had chosen a better support act. In fact I wish that U2 had done a much smaller venue because the only reason I went was in case it was my son's last chance to catch them live.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
The frightening thing is that the very latest technology is capable of auto-tuning an artist's voice live on stage - in the future we'll never know if what we're listening to - even live - is pure human endeavour or technology manipulating it.
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Yeah but in a way this is going to make the smaller, more intimate and perhaps somewhat unplugged gig more popular. A portion of people aren't going to stand for it. Many will, but you're going to always have your purists.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
Cheers.


What the feck does that mean?

I think that video argues my point more succinctly than I ever could. What a load of old cobblers.

G'night.
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It means he constantly makes hit whether we like it or not every album he has produced has been gone platinum, his singles get thousands of spins. He constantly attracts an audience. Is that dumbed down enough for you now?
 
BaldwinLegend said:
I'm not sure I want to get into that too much... I live outside the UK and work as a musician but more in the classical side of things these days... However, I studied for 8 years as a music student in London and got by financially by playing in a huge range of commercial recording sessions. I've also toured a lot with a lot of different 'pop'/commercial artists.

I agree with every word of your post by the way a few posts up. I have a close family member who writes commercial/film/TV work and as such I've learnt more about modern recording studios from him. He talks a lot about what you mentioned - how surprisingly advanced technology is.

I know I've gone a bit over the top in this thread, it just annoys me to see how gullible today's young audience is and how they don't really realise what they're listening to and being sold.

You're right about the auto-tuner becoming used now purposefully as an audible effect. It's called the 'Cher effect' after that 'If you believe' song she released in the early '90's - very widespread now.
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And get the feck outta here with that shit Roger Troutman from ZAP and who did the chorus from California love had been using it way before her.
smh2.gif
 
Kinky Melinky said:
Music is all about how it makes you feel. If you get off on lyrics then so be it. If you get off on a catchy beat then so be it. If you get off on a technical guitar solo then happy days. If a combination of all 3 floats your boat then listen to the style that most suits your taste. It's like chosing a beer.

This is pretty much why I never get offended if someone dislikes the music I write, because I get a buzz out of it, and I know that where it's not one person's cup of tea, it's another person's inspiration.
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Well said - and I totally agree. A lot of the bands and artists I love are really not all that good technically speaking - I know the vocals crack and break sometimes, I know the guitar work is nothing new - but it's how it makes me feel that's important. If I wanted technical brilliance I'd go and listen to Vai or Satriani wanking off his guitar (I'd rather listen to Sonic Youth hammering nails into a piano).

So just because you don't understand a style or genre of music (e.g. rap and hip hop) doesn't mean it's poor. When I was younger I dismissed rock music as "just noise", but now I'm more than happy to listen to:


More recently I swore I liked most genres of music, but I hated dance music, only to discover an amazing album that sounds like this:


Of course most people I've played either to think both are awful. But who the feck cares, I enjoy them.

I think you come to realise that while there may be a lot of music you don't like, it doesn't make it bad*, and you certainly can't dismiss entire genres of music without sounding like an arrogant pretentious twat.














*With the exception of Pete Docherty, U2, Celine Dion and anything involving a 5 minute guitar solo ;)
 
did you even bother listen to Roger Troutman's music or did you just google and wiki searched and see talkbox. If you listened you would see this is what the vocoder trend really started from T-Pain who popularised its use even said he 'borrowed' Roger Troutman's style
 
CLK_FPC said:
did you even bother listen to Roger Troutman's music or did you just google and wiki searched and see talkbox. If you listened you would see this is what the vocoder trend really started from T-Pain who popularised its use even said he 'borrowed' Roger Troutman's style
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Um, no. The 'Cher effect' is something totally different - it refers to when auto-tuning software is set to such a high 'correction' speed that it no longer sounds humanly possible. What you hear in 'If you Believe' is the same software in use that you can hear in lots of commercial music without realising it. As Kinky Melinky pointed out, it's now become a recognisable trend to turn up the auto-tune, to the extent it was on the Cher song or more, so that the listener can recognise that the voice has been manipulated - that is now known commonly as the 'Cher effect'.

And by the way, the talkbox existed long before Roger Trautman began using it. This video of Stevie Wonder using it must be from around 1970...

 
yes i see you ready Troutman's wikipedia page and I didn't say that Troutman was the first to use it genius, I said he used it before Cher.
You keep calling it the Cher effect lol even Teddy Riley was using it before her
 
CLK_FPC said:
yes i see you ready Troutman's wikipedia page and I didn't say that Troutman was the first to use it genius, I said he used it before Cher.
You keep calling it the Cher effect lol even Teddy Riley was using it before her
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Yawn - still haven't quite worked out that auto-tuning and a talkbox are two rather different things have we?

I haven't read Troutman's page on wikipedia - I don't need to either as I understand the difference between the two techniques we're talking about, unlike you.

I think I'll give up trying to get through to you though as you seem more interested in insults than debating.

Edit: By the way, it's not me that calls it the Cher effect - it's called that within the music industry. I guess the pros have it wrong though eh?

Google search results for 'the Cher effect':

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=the+cher+effect&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=0&oq=the+cher+e
 
Artists in the 70s discovered the keyboard-based voice box sounded pretty good on records, but it was the Zapp Band that really popularised the vocoder on tracks like 1980's More Bounce to the Ounce. In later years, Teddy Riley and Tupac flirted with the Metal Mickey effect, incorporating it into songs in moderation. But it's Pain's recent all-over use of it that has made the vocoder as ubiquitous in hip-hop as Cristal and crotch-grabbing.

The latest variation of the vocoder is Auto-Tune, something Lil Wayne used to send Lollipop to the top of the US charts. As legend goes, Cher's engineer was messing around with the, ahem, flange one day and stumbled across an effect that not only corrects duff notes but produces a similar effect to the one true love of Zapp's Roger Troutman. The track Believe was born, and, as wedding DJs across the land will attest, has since refused to die.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/jun/16/howtheautotuneconqueredthe

Good day sir
 
I saw Pearl Jam at SBE last night, and i can confirm Eddie did not use Auto-tune. Just old fashioned guitars,drums and vocal talent. And they threw in the great lyrics and performance free of charge.
 
CLK_FPC said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/jun/16/howtheautotuneconqueredthe

Good day sir
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I think we're at cross purposes. You are saying that the two techniques sound the same, and I'm pointing out that they're two very different things which may sound the same, sometimes, to a lay person's ear.

The talkbox could be put to excellent use by artists like Stevie Wonder or Herbie Hancock whereas the auto-tune technology was designed purely to make sub-standard singers sound better.

When auto-tune sounds like talkbox it's actually only because the engineer is using the software in a way it wasn't intended to be.

Listen to the difference between Liam Gallagher's voice live and how it sounds on Oasis's most recent album - that is a typical use of auto-tune.

I agree that it creates an effect which can be similar to the talkbox but my point was just that they're two totally different things...
 
BaldwinLegend said:
I think we're at cross purposes. You are saying that the two techniques sound the same, and I'm pointing out that they're two very different things which may sound the same, sometimes, to a lay person's ear.

The talkbox could be put to excellent use by artists like Stevie Wonder or Herbie Hancock whereas the auto-tune technology was designed purely to make sub-standard singers sound better.

When auto-tune sounds like talkbox it's actually only because the engineer is using the software in a way it wasn't intended to be.

Listen to the difference between Liam Gallagher's voice live and how it sounds on Oasis's most recent album - that is a typical use of auto-tune.

I agree that it creates an effect which can be similar to the talkbox but my point was just that they're two totally different things...
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Hold the feck up!
Oasis used auto tune? Im fecking dead what the feck. Damn :(
 
Anderson Searl said:
1. Why are you centering your posts as if you're some sort of mature figure around here?

2. Who the feck are you to dictate what music we enjoy? Last I checked music is a freedom of expression, an art, and it reflects who you are and what kind of environment you grow up in and represent... hip-hop music was a very important part of my upbringing from my babysitter and mother when I was young to my own personal selections since the turn of the decade... If I didn't take a fancy to it, why the hell would I listen to it?

I also am a big fan of classical rock, alternative rock, R&B, soul, and alot of punk rock... what, am I not mature because I happen to listen to hip-hop?

The message ALOT of Kanye's music sends IS growing if you took the time to listen to his catologue rather then be a generalizing prick and start on the WUM train... If you listen to the evolution of his music and sound since College Dropout it's deeper, more personal, and ALOT more MATURE... as piss poor a decision as it was to release a record that featured his less than stellar vocal skills, it was his strongest album to date in terms of a message.

He pays homage to the artists that have given him the chance to be in his position by re-making and sampling their music, because music is nothing without the fathers and mothers of yesteryear... What is wrong with that? Nothing.

Creativity is to the ear of the consumer, not the over-opinioned.
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Fo shizzle my nizzle.
 
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