Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?

stw2022 said:
The way we play is under examination not whether we win individual matches. If we were constantly creating chances, looking a threat, dominating possession and playing well then sure 'coaches don't fluff headers' might work, but that isn't the case. The criticism of how we're coached seems to be based around the fact we often don't create much, we often don't play well (even if we end up getting the result) we don't really have a style of play and there rarely ever seems to be a plan B tactically. With very few exceptions we will start the game with the same basic set-up, formation and approach as when we started with most subs being like for like changes.

That isn't down to someone fluffing a header, nor really is it right to overlook it even if the header isn't fluffed.

The old adage is that not playing well but getting results is a positive. And that's true but it's almost always used in the context of the clubs at the top as a way to praise resolve and determination when an otherwise excellent team is going through a rough patch. It should be something in the arsenal of a top side to use occasionally or in short spells. It shouldn't be the norm and I'm sorry but for us it's been the norm for two years. Those initial dozen games, or whatever it was, remains the peak of how we played post-Ferugson. Since then, since he's been able to bring his own people in and has had time to set up the coaching arrangement he wants it hasn't improved. In fact in terms of our style and approach - the entertainment factor if you will - it's markedly worse and I don't think if you put those first dozen games aside there is much difference to how we played under Van Gaal and Mourinho

"We're second in the league"

We finished 2nd under Jose and we won the Europa League. LVG won the FA Cup. These things are either mitigations for the drab football we play or they're not. They can't only be considered mitigations to the criticism unless you've already been fired.
Click to expand...

Good post and I would mostly agree. In terms of creating chances however we are well ahead in that department compared to LVG and Jose.....I think. We dont have a decent striker to put them away. Even last night there were a few balls flashed across the box but no one in there to finish.

You can criticise Ole however for not replacing Lukaku, that mistake still hasn't been rectified. Martial and Rashford are so wasteful it's a joke, that is down to Ole for not bringing in a striker.....we could have signed Jota for instance, I'm sure there are more of that calibre for that price but we haven't signed one.

In Ole's defence I dont think anyone thought Martial would be as bad this season as he has been. Had he performed as well as last season, scored same amount of goals, we would surely be right up there with city - we are talking about an extra 10 goals after all missing. Also Old Trafford being empty probably hasn't helped, yes I know it affects all teams but we get 75k fans at every match so stands to reason that it impacts us more, just look at our home form.

What I dont like about Ole is him just sitting there watching his iPad, I have never know a successful manager to just sit in his dug out, look at Fergie, Klopp, Pep, Jose, Wenger....whoever....they were/are all on the sidelines driving the team on, but not Ole. I think that really feeds through to the team and is evident in our play in our casual approach to taking chances etc.

If there was a top replacement available, I would be ok with Ole being replaced. There isn't however so I'm not against him getting one more season.....wouldnt be the end of the world if Ole was still in charge next season.
 
I enjoy soccer under ole more than when we had Jose and definitely LVG.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
Ive already answered this, so Ill refer you to my earlier post.



I was referring to when Jose was on his way out, before Ole arrived.



Again, if Mickey Mouse cups are so inferior, then why can't Ole win one?



2020-21 (Manager - Ole Gunnar Solskjaer)
After 27 Premier League games, United have:
  • 51 points
  • a +21 goal difference
  • are 14 points behind the top of table
Source - https://www.premierleague.com/tables

Compared to:

2014/15 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
  • 50 points
  • a +20 goal difference
  • were 13 points behind the top of the table
Source - https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2014-2015-spieltag/27/

2015/16 (Manager - Louis Van Gaal)
After 27 Premier League games, United had:
  • 44 points
  • a +10 goal difference
  • were 12 points behind the top of the table
Source - https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2015-2016-spieltag/27/

2016-17 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
  • 50 points
  • a +17 goal difference
  • were 16 points behind the top of the table
Source - https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2016-2017-spieltag/27/

2017-18 (Manager - Jose Mourinho)
After 27 Premier League games played, United had:
  • 56 points
  • a +32 goal difference
  • were 16 points behind the top of the table
Source - https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2017-2018-spieltag/27/

Trophies won at Man United after 26.5 months at the club (the length of time Ole has now been there):
Van Gaal (1)
  • FA Cup (2016)
Mourinho (3)
  • FA Community Shield (2016)
  • EFL Cup (2017)
  • UEFA Europa League (2017)
Solskjaer (0)

Im failing to see the progress youre talking about.
Click to expand...

Updated the table
After 28 Primier League:Point GainGoal / Conceded RankStarting XI Average Age Starting XI at Title Winner
20/215656:32225.726.1 (Currently)
19/204242:30524.826.6
18/195555:36626.226.7
17/185953:20226.726.4
16/175139:22626.627.2
15/164737:26525.527.7
14/155347:26426.026.8
Source:- https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/platzierungen/verein/985/spieltag/28

It was 3 points less than Jose 17/18 and better than others (So, i mainly compare with 17/18 tean as below)
But it is almost 1 years old younger than Jose Team, When you comparing the title winner in the league, 26-27 years old is the peak of the team, then we will be at peak in next year if this whole starting XI haven't changed.

Then the important progress is finally we do not need to rely on the God mode Goalkeeper to save us all day long.
When you compare our Startup Goalkeeper (with highest paid in world) from 14/15 to 20/21,
PlayedGoal AllowedGoals Allowed AverageShots on Target AgainstSavesSave %Clean Sheets
20/2124291.23775367.59
19/2038360.951259273.613
18/1938541.4216912471.67
17/1837280.7614011580.718
16/1735290.831037475.714
15/1634330.971117870.315
14/1537360.971279171.710
Source:- https://fbref.com/en/players/7ba6d84e/David-de-Gea

You can see this season is the worst form after Sir Alex era of DDG and you can see how good when he played in 17/18 Jose Team. Don't you remember how many titanic was saved by him in the past to keep us for competition. How many times that he saved from 0 points to 1 points, 1 points to 3 points?

Also, you should consider how bad form of our young front three in this season, you will see Lukaku at 17/18 bossed all of them in current season at all attacking stats. (Although he was not the favorite player when he was at United)
Anthony Martial at 20/21Marcus Rashford at 20/21Mason Greenwood at 20/21Lukaku at 17/18
Match (Start)22 (17)29 (27)23 (15)34 (33)
Goal49116
Shots per game1.61.71.02.0
Goals per game0.20.30.00.5
Big Chances missed1010411
Goal Conversion12%19%4%24%
Assists3717
Big Chances Created4339
Key Passes0.81.20.51.0
Source:- https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/manchester-united/35

And Compare Ole and Jose team [P.S.: ( ) is the value per match and Word as Red Colour are the advance]
20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)
For UnitedFor UnitedAgainst UnitedAgainst United
Match28382838
Shot Total397 (14.1 per match)518 (13.6)330 (11.7)443 (11.6)
Shot on target153 (5.46)171 (4.5)99 (3.5)144 (3.7)
Average distance of the shots17.417.717.117.1
Passing Completed (Short: 5-15 yards)6271 (223) / 90.4%7663 (201) / 89.3%4298 / 88.5%5684 (149.5) / 86.4%
Passing Completed (Mid: 15-30 yards)6937 (247) / 89.1%5946 (156) / 86.2%4791 / 87.7%5572 (146.6) / 82.9%
Passing Completed (Long: >30 yards)2254 (80) / 66.1%1761 (46) / 60.1%1545 / 57.0%1779 (46.8) / 53.0%
Completed Pass in 1/3 pitch closest to the goal1066 (38.0)1323 (34.8)740 (26.4)1045 (27.5)
Completed Pass in 18 yards box293 (10.4)371 (9.7)200 (7.1)296 (7.7)
Progressive Passes1155 (41.25)814 (29.0)1471 (38.7)1210 (31.8)
Touch in defensive penalty area1801 (64.3)2130 (56.0)2072 (74.0)2326 (61.2)
Touch in defensive 1/36098 (217.7)7482 (196.8)6356 (227.0)7482 (196.8)
Touch in mid 1/39441 (337.1)12016 (316.2)7525 (268.7)9766 (257)
Touch in attacking 1/36089 (217.4)7784 (204.8)4122 (147.2)6043 (159.0)
Touch in attacking penalty area785 (28.0)996 (26.2)573 (20.4)843 (22.1)
Times of Press3674 (131.2)5533 (145.6)4258 (152.0)5199 (136.8)
Successful within 5 second1081 (38.6) / 29.4%1456 (38.3) / 26.3%1209 (43.1) / 28.4%1305 (34.3) / 25.1
Times of Press in defensive 1/31122 (40.0)2037 (53.6)1572 (56.1)1933 (50.8)
Times of Press in mid 1/31583 (56.5)2354 (61.9)1748 (62.4)2327 (60.2)
Times of Press in attacking 1/3969 (34.6)1142 (30.0)938 (33.5)939 (24.7)

The progress is not just comparing the points, ranks, goal difference and points behind the top of the table. It is to compete the team with different value, in the table you can see we are improved in the attacking side, passing side and allow less the opposite touch in our 1/3 and the box.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roonster09
stw2022 said:
The way we play is under examination not whether we win individual matches. If we were constantly creating chances, looking a threat, dominating possession and playing well then sure 'coaches don't fluff headers' might work, but that isn't the case. The criticism of how we're coached seems to be based around the fact we often don't create much, we often don't play well (even if we end up getting the result) we don't really have a style of play and there rarely ever seems to be a plan B tactically. With very few exceptions we will start the game with the same basic set-up, formation and approach as when we started with most subs being like for like changes.

That isn't down to someone fluffing a header, nor really is it right to overlook it even if the header isn't fluffed.

The old adage is that not playing well but getting results is a positive. And that's true but it's almost always used in the context of the clubs at the top as a way to praise resolve and determination when an otherwise excellent team is going through a rough patch. It should be something in the arsenal of a top side to use occasionally or in short spells. It shouldn't be the norm and I'm sorry but for us it's been the norm for two years. Those initial dozen games, or whatever it was, remains the peak of how we played post-Ferugson. Since then, since he's been able to bring his own people in and has had time to set up the coaching arrangement he wants it hasn't improved. In fact in terms of our style and approach - the entertainment factor if you will - it's markedly worse and I don't think if you put those first dozen games aside there is much difference to how we played under Van Gaal and Mourinho

"We're second in the league"

We finished 2nd under Jose and we won the Europa League. LVG won the FA Cup. These things are either mitigations for the drab football we play or they're not. They can't only be considered mitigations to the criticism unless you've already been fired.
Click to expand...

Oh come now. There's a bit of goalpost shifting going on lately. When we were visibly playing better but not getting points on the board, it was all a case of "points means progress", and yet now we're performing notably better than last season in the points department, it's all about the way we play. Me personally, I focus more on how we're playing as a gauge than points, but anyway.

Misplaced passes affect the way we play, having no aerial threat in the box sure affects the way we play (in fact, having hardly any threat in the box full stop affects the way we play), having players on the wings who aren't really suited to playing on the wings sure affects the way we play as well. That's partly the reason why we're not great attacking-wise right now, the other reason is because every team we come up against is parking the bus against us, they know it's our weakness. It's actually quite flattering that teams do this against us as it shows that we can do a lot of damage when given the space. We haven't got many players capable of penetrating this setup.

Tactically there are some things that we could do better, but we're very limited on choice right now and key performers are tiring.
 
Since December 1st we have played 30 games of football. That's 30 matches in 105 days. This is obviously going to impact on the quality of our football. Physical and mental fatigue will have a negative effect on movement, first touch, pretty much everything.

West Ham incidentally have played 21 times over the same period, and they also looked fatigued I thought. This season is taking its toll on every team apart from City, who have a far deeper talent pool to select from.
 
Bobcat said:
This.

We also have to keep in mind that Rashford and Bruno are absoloutely knackered, Martial has been diabolical most of the season, Pogba and Cavani has been on and off injured and Greenwood has a bad case of second season syndrome.

When you consider that its no wonder we have looked slow and pedestrian at times, and that has nothing to do with coaching nor the quality of the players
Click to expand...

Yep. Bruno and Rashford have been productive, but they certainly haven't been lighting the scene with their general performances for most of the season. And they're our standout attackers. The rest are as you say.
 
MinGin said:
Updated the table
After 28 Primier League:Point GainGoal / ConcededRankStarting XI Average AgeStarting XI at Title Winner
20/215656:32225.726.1 (Currently)
19/204242:30524.826.6
18/195555:36626.226.7
17/185953:20226.726.4
16/175139:22626.627.2
15/164737:26525.527.7
14/155347:26426.026.8
Source:- https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/platzierungen/verein/985/spieltag/28

It was 3 points less than Jose 17/18 and better than others (So, i mainly compare with 17/18 tean as below)
But it is almost 1 years old younger than Jose Team, When you comparing the title winner in the league, 26-27 years old is the peak of the team, then we will be at peak in next year if this whole starting XI haven't changed.

Then the important progress is finally we do not need to rely on the God mode Goalkeeper to save us all day long.
When you compare our Startup Goalkeeper (with highest paid in world) from 14/15 to 20/21,
PlayedGoal AllowedGoals Allowed AverageShots on Target AgainstSavesSave %Clean Sheets
20/2124291.23775367.59
19/2038360.951259273.613
18/1938541.4216912471.67
17/1837280.7614011580.718
16/1735290.831037475.714
15/1634330.971117870.315
14/1537360.971279171.710
Source:- https://fbref.com/en/players/7ba6d84e/David-de-Gea

You can see this season is the worst form after Sir Alex era of DDG and you can see how good when he played in 17/18 Jose Team. Don't you remember how many titanic was saved by him in the past to keep us for competition. How many times that he saved from 0 points to 1 points, 1 points to 3 points?

Also, you should consider how bad form of our young front three in this season, you will see Lukaku at 17/18 bossed all of them in current season at all attacking stats. (Although he was not the favorite player when he was at United)
Anthony Martial at 20/21Marcus Rashford at 20/21Mason Greenwood at 20/21Lukaku at 17/18
Match (Start)22 (17)29 (27)23 (15)34 (33)
Goal49116
Shots per game1.61.71.02.0
Goals per game0.20.30.00.5
Big Chances missed1010411
Goal Conversion12%19%4%24%
Assists3717
Big Chances Created4339
Key Passes0.81.20.51.0
Source:- https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/manchester-united/35

And Compare Ole and Jose team [P.S.: ( ) is the value per match and Word as Red Colour are the advance]
20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)
For UnitedFor UnitedAgainst UnitedAgainst United
Match28382838
Shot Total397 (14.1 per match)518 (13.6)330 (11.7)443 (11.6)
Shot on target153 (5.46)171 (4.5)99 (3.5)144 (3.7)
Average distance of the shots17.417.717.117.1
Passing Completed (Short: 5-15 yards)6271 (223) / 90.4%7663 (201) / 89.3%4298 / 88.5%5684 (149.5) / 86.4%
Passing Completed (Mid: 15-30 yards)6937 (247) / 89.1%5946 (156) / 86.2%4791 / 87.7%5572 (146.6) / 82.9%
Passing Completed (Long: >30 yards)2254 (80) / 66.1%1761 (46) / 60.1%1545 / 57.0%1779 (46.8) / 53.0%
Completed Pass in 1/3 pitch closest to the goal1066 (38.0)1323 (34.8)740 (26.4)1045 (27.5)
Completed Pass in 18 yards box293 (10.4)371 (9.7)200 (7.1)296 (7.7)
Progressive Passes1155 (41.25)814 (29.0)1471 (38.7)1210 (31.8)
Touch in defensive penalty area1801 (64.3)2130 (56.0)2072 (74.0)2326 (61.2)
Touch in defensive 1/36098 (217.7)7482 (196.8)6356 (227.0)7482 (196.8)
Touch in mid 1/39441 (337.1)12016 (316.2)7525 (268.7)9766 (257)
Touch in attacking 1/36089 (217.4)7784 (204.8)4122 (147.2)6043 (159.0)
Touch in attacking penalty area785 (28.0)996 (26.2)573 (20.4)843 (22.1)
Times of Press3674 (131.2)5533 (145.6)4258 (152.0)5199 (136.8)
Successful within 5 second1081 (38.6) / 29.4%1456 (38.3) / 26.3%1209 (43.1) / 28.4%1305 (34.3) / 25.1
Times of Press in defensive 1/31122 (40.0)2037 (53.6)1572 (56.1)1933 (50.8)
Times of Press in mid 1/31583 (56.5)2354 (61.9)1748 (62.4)2327 (60.2)
Times of Press in attacking 1/3969 (34.6)1142 (30.0)938 (33.5)939 (24.7)

The progress is not just comparing the points, ranks, goal difference and points behind the top of the table. It is to compete the team with different value, in the table you can see we are improved in the attacking side, passing side and allow less the opposite touch in our 1/3 and the box.
Click to expand...

This is great data although reading through this I think the 'difference' is a lot closer than many realised (including myself). What is the source for the last table - it would be great to look at some other current teams and how we compare?
 
RashyForPM said:
Honestly if Haaland joins City and Pep stays there for the foreseeable, the title will be theirs for a while longer. We can’t afford to miss out on him.
Click to expand...

Yeah very true but we would have to sell either Pogba/Martial along with a few others to fund a deal
 
Bilbo said:
Since December 1st we have played 30 games of football. That's 30 matches in 105 days. This is obviously going to impact on the quality of our football. Physical and mental fatigue will have a negative effect on movement, first touch, pretty much everything.

West Ham incidentally have played 21 times over the same period, and they also looked fatigued I thought. This season is taking its toll on every team apart from City, who have a far deeper talent pool to select from.
Click to expand...
City also had that dodgy week off over crimbo.
 
Are you kidding me? He has implemented a pressing system we only ever dreamed of. Watch our games - we make it an absolute priority to press opposition in their own third and middle third to make sure they don't get to progress to their final 1/3. This constantly results in them dumping the ball back to us allowing us to dominate games and minimize chances conceded. (the reason why we're defensively much more superior than any LVG/Mourinho team).

Our full-backs actually have a defined role in the attack. We have a right side because we have patterns of play developing in channels that can be used over and over again.

We are beating teams purely on outworking them and having an automatic play system.
 
The important thing for me is that we're improving at a sustainable rate. Under Mourinho, it always felt like the second season was all or bust, and for me the third season meltdown was no surprise.

I think clearly we're better now than under LVG, that much is obvious. The only season that's really comparable is Jose's second season, and that always felt like the maximum potential of that squad.

For me, this season is not the maximum potential of the squad, which is the major difference. We're a couple of key Bruno-like transfers in key positions away from winning the title.

Over the next two season's, we should have all of our key players in their prime, or at least entering their prime, and we have a solid base from which to work from. None of that was really evident before. It all seems a little more planned the days, whereas before it was boom-bust cycles of 2-3 seasons.

We've had more days under Ole where everything has clicked, and we look like a proper devastating top team again, than Moyes, LVG and Jose combined. Consistency of application is more the problem, not what we are trying to do.
 
I don't see the improvement. And I don't see how "we're currently second" is evidence we've improved when what we've supposedly improved against is a period of time when we actually finished second.

Outside of the first dozen games of his tenure, very seldom have we not looked flat, tired, slow and uncreative. Accounting for Fernandes' individual moments of brilliance since he joined there aren't many times the team has played well. There's been a few but not many. Even then it tends to be in patches, 15 minutes here and there. There are examples but there are far fewer of them than people clinging onto this idea that there's been a great improvement want you to believe.
 
MinGin said:
Updated the table
After 28 Primier League:Point GainGoal / ConcededRankStarting XI Average AgeStarting XI at Title Winner
20/215656:32225.726.1 (Currently)
19/204242:30524.826.6
18/195555:36626.226.7
17/185953:20226.726.4
16/175139:22626.627.2
15/164737:26525.527.7
14/155347:26426.026.8
Source:- https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/platzierungen/verein/985/spieltag/28

It was 3 points less than Jose 17/18 and better than others (So, i mainly compare with 17/18 tean as below)
But it is almost 1 years old younger than Jose Team, When you comparing the title winner in the league, 26-27 years old is the peak of the team, then we will be at peak in next year if this whole starting XI haven't changed.

Then the important progress is finally we do not need to rely on the God mode Goalkeeper to save us all day long.
When you compare our Startup Goalkeeper (with highest paid in world) from 14/15 to 20/21,
PlayedGoal AllowedGoals Allowed AverageShots on Target AgainstSavesSave %Clean Sheets
20/2124291.23775367.59
19/2038360.951259273.613
18/1938541.4216912471.67
17/1837280.7614011580.718
16/1735290.831037475.714
15/1634330.971117870.315
14/1537360.971279171.710
Source:- https://fbref.com/en/players/7ba6d84e/David-de-Gea

You can see this season is the worst form after Sir Alex era of DDG and you can see how good when he played in 17/18 Jose Team. Don't you remember how many titanic was saved by him in the past to keep us for competition. How many times that he saved from 0 points to 1 points, 1 points to 3 points?

Also, you should consider how bad form of our young front three in this season, you will see Lukaku at 17/18 bossed all of them in current season at all attacking stats. (Although he was not the favorite player when he was at United)
Anthony Martial at 20/21Marcus Rashford at 20/21Mason Greenwood at 20/21Lukaku at 17/18
Match (Start)22 (17)29 (27)23 (15)34 (33)
Goal49116
Shots per game1.61.71.02.0
Goals per game0.20.30.00.5
Big Chances missed1010411
Goal Conversion12%19%4%24%
Assists3717
Big Chances Created4339
Key Passes0.81.20.51.0
Source:- https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/manchester-united/35

And Compare Ole and Jose team [P.S.: ( ) is the value per match and Word as Red Colour are the advance]
20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)20/21 (Ole Team)17/18 (Jose Team)
For UnitedFor UnitedAgainst UnitedAgainst United
Match28382838
Shot Total397 (14.1 per match)518 (13.6)330 (11.7)443 (11.6)
Shot on target153 (5.46)171 (4.5)99 (3.5)144 (3.7)
Average distance of the shots17.417.717.117.1
Passing Completed (Short: 5-15 yards)6271 (223) / 90.4%7663 (201) / 89.3%4298 / 88.5%5684 (149.5) / 86.4%
Passing Completed (Mid: 15-30 yards)6937 (247) / 89.1%5946 (156) / 86.2%4791 / 87.7%5572 (146.6) / 82.9%
Passing Completed (Long: >30 yards)2254 (80) / 66.1%1761 (46) / 60.1%1545 / 57.0%1779 (46.8) / 53.0%
Completed Pass in 1/3 pitch closest to the goal1066 (38.0)1323 (34.8)740 (26.4)1045 (27.5)
Completed Pass in 18 yards box293 (10.4)371 (9.7)200 (7.1)296 (7.7)
Progressive Passes1155 (41.25)814 (29.0)1471 (38.7)1210 (31.8)
Touch in defensive penalty area1801 (64.3)2130 (56.0)2072 (74.0)2326 (61.2)
Touch in defensive 1/36098 (217.7)7482 (196.8)6356 (227.0)7482 (196.8)
Touch in mid 1/39441 (337.1)12016 (316.2)7525 (268.7)9766 (257)
Touch in attacking 1/36089 (217.4)7784 (204.8)4122 (147.2)6043 (159.0)
Touch in attacking penalty area785 (28.0)996 (26.2)573 (20.4)843 (22.1)
Times of Press3674 (131.2)5533 (145.6)4258 (152.0)5199 (136.8)
Successful within 5 second1081 (38.6) / 29.4%1456 (38.3) / 26.3%1209 (43.1) / 28.4%1305 (34.3) / 25.1
Times of Press in defensive 1/31122 (40.0)2037 (53.6)1572 (56.1)1933 (50.8)
Times of Press in mid 1/31583 (56.5)2354 (61.9)1748 (62.4)2327 (60.2)
Times of Press in attacking 1/3969 (34.6)1142 (30.0)938 (33.5)939 (24.7)

The progress is not just comparing the points, ranks, goal difference and points behind the top of the table. It is to compete the team with different value, in the table you can see we are improved in the attacking side, passing side and allow less the opposite touch in our 1/3 and the box.
Click to expand...
Found this very interesting

I do think playing under the current circumstances that Covid has enforced means it’s not a true test and it would be impossible to factor in.

but this is as close as you’re likely to find.

enjoyed looking over this
 
stw2022 said:
I don't see the improvement. And I don't see how "we're currently second" is evidence we've improved when what we've supposedly improved against is a period of time when we actually finished second.

Outside of the first dozen games of his tenure, very seldom have we not looked flat, tired, slow and uncreative. Accounting for Fernandes' individual moments of brilliance since he joined there aren't many times the team has played well. There's been a few but not many. Even then it tends to be in patches, 15 minutes here and there. There are examples but there are far fewer of them than people clinging onto this idea that there's been a great improvement want you to believe.
Click to expand...
I think you need to keep in mind that when pogba is out we have a serious lack of talent in the middle of the park.
No one would have us playing this entertaining football you’re looking for

but I will say if it’s not addressed this summer along with a striker/rw that we all agree we need then he’s in for a rough ride next season if we don’t win something major
 
Yes. Obviously.

LvG
SeasonxGxGA
14/15
54.21​
39.84​
15/16
45.42​
39.66​

Mourinho
SeasonxGxGA
16/17
57.57​
31.62​
17/18
59.04​
43.54​

Mourinho/Ole
SeasonxGxGA
18/19
68.62​
52.3​

Ole
SeasonxGxGA
19/20
66.19​
38.06​
20/21 so far
48.56​
32.34​

LvG and Mourinho played shit-on-a-stick football, but benefited from DDG keeping us in matches by being the best 'keeper in the world. Our poor teamplay seemed to get excused because we were still picking up points when we didn't deserve it.

Ole's teams have actually managed similar xGA numbers, but unfortunately conceded more because of DDG's drop in form. I guess you could make an argument that this is the manager's fault to some degree, but I think that would be harsh. It's just a natural decline of an ageing goalie.

On the more positive side, we've obviously been better at attacking and patently much more productive. The fact people are still unhappy shows how much standards are actually creeping up. It's only natural for fans to want their team to constantly improve. But Ole seems to get disproportionate criticism for failing to keep up with that demand. Probably because there's a contingent of posters who were against his appointment on day one, and want to be proven right on the internet. But If you look at it objectively, he's clearly done a better job than either of his predecessors.

Beyond the stats, I think the biggest achievement from Ole is how he's recomposed the squad. Jose's team was full of veterans at their peak/on their way down. Solksjaer's current team is matching Mourinho's side but doing so with a younger profile and is still very much on its way up.

We're also building the team around characters who wouldn't hesitate to put United first. It's been a massive cultural shift away from the mercenaries we'd been tricked into believing gave a shit about the club.

United can't afford the scatter gun transfer policy or Chelsea or City, and we can't rely on the unequivocal devotion that Barca or Real get from players raised in the latin world. We have to be cleverer than all of them. And for the first time since Fergie, that's what Ole's doing.
 
stw2022 said:
I don't see the improvement. And I don't see how "we're currently second" is evidence we've improved when what we've supposedly improved against is a period of time when we actually finished second.

Outside of the first dozen games of his tenure, very seldom have we not looked flat, tired, slow and uncreative. Accounting for Fernandes' individual moments of brilliance since he joined there aren't many times the team has played well. There's been a few but not many. Even then it tends to be in patches, 15 minutes here and there. There are examples but there are far fewer of them than people clinging onto this idea that there's been a great improvement want you to believe.
Click to expand...


I think I prefer to cling onto the facts. You do realize that since Bruno arrived more than thirteen months ago, we've lost 4 times in the PL? That would seem to imply that there's been quite a few times we've played well. Also, that there's been quite a bit of improvement.

Pointing this out will of course not matter to you at all, but I do think it doesn't hurt to be reminded of reality every now and then even if you're determined to ignore it.
 
People complaining we've looked tired lately... Well which team hasn't? City (whom we beat 2-0 very recently) is probably the best team in the world (together with Bayern perhaps) at the moment, and is the only English team that has been consistent over the last few months.
We had next to no pre-season last year, and it will probably not be much better this year due to the Euros. Covid football is something else. Teams are tired.
 
SirScholes said:
We played well today against a very disciplined team.
You can only play with the players you have, no one is coming in and playing sexy football with Fred and mctom as your midfield pair.
A raw talent in Greenwood up top and James on the rw

the team played well today and deserved the win
Click to expand...

We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.
 
justsomebloke said:
I think I prefer to cling onto the facts. You do realize that since Bruno arrived more than thirteen months ago, we've lost 4 times in the PL? That would seem to imply that there's been quite a few times we've played well. Also, that there's been quite a bit of improvement.

Pointing this out will of course not matter to you at all, but I do think it doesn't hurt to be reminded of reality every now and then even if you're determined to ignore it.
Click to expand...

That is insane if true
 
When LVG was good it was very good. Better than Ole. When he is bad it was terrible. Much worse than Ole at his worst. Jose is the same. Jose didn't have any memorable games like Ole had but won trophies. The League Cup, we were lucky to win though for the neutrals it may have been entertaining. Against Ajax Jose came up with a master plan.
 
Tyrion said:
We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.
Click to expand...
We have been missing sitters .. if we get a clinical striker .. maybe the draws will be wins
 
O boy some of you have bad memory. We were terrible under Jose and LVG and this is clearly an improvement. Problem is that under Ole we are sorta stupid defensively time to time. LvG football was most boring United ever. Jose just sucks generally.

Patiance. Ole will get it.
 
For the people saying DDG propped up the stats for LvG and Mourinho, could opponents argue back and claim that Bruno has propped up the stats for Ole?
 
0le said:
For the people saying DDG propped up the stats for LvG and Mourinho, could opponents argue back and claim that Bruno has propped up the stats for Ole?
Click to expand...

Yes but its different for a goalkeeper and outfield player. With Bruno, our outfield play has improved massively.
 
WR10 said:
Are you kidding me? He has implemented a pressing system we only ever dreamed of. Watch our games - we make it an absolute priority to press opposition in their own third and middle third to make sure they don't get to progress to their final 1/3. This constantly results in them dumping the ball back to us allowing us to dominate games and minimize chances conceded. (the reason why we're defensively much more superior than any LVG/Mourinho team).

Our full-backs actually have a defined role in the attack. We have a right side because we have patterns of play developing in channels that can be used over and over again.

We are beating teams purely on outworking them and having an automatic play system.
Click to expand...

His teams press less than Mourinhos united according to the stats posted above.
 
Desert Eagle said:
His teams press less than Mourinhos united according to the stats posted above.
Click to expand...
If you go through the stats again you will see we used to press more under Jose in our defensive box while now we press more attacking. All the top pressing side press while attacking. So to just look at the overall number and conclude we used to press under Jose is incorrect. Half of the time under Jose we used to give away possession and defend deep, hence our defenders and midfielders used to press the opponents attackers.

Also, our average possession this season is 56% (5th best behind city, pool, leeds, chelsea). In 17-18 our average possession was 54%. Just shows we like to keep the ball more.
 
AshRK said:
If you go through the stats again you will see we used to press more under Jose in our defensive box while now we press more attacking. All the top pressing side press while attacking. So to just look at the overall number and conclude we used to press under Jose is incorrect. Half of the time under Jose we used to give away possession and defend deep, hence our defenders and midfielders used to press the opponents attackers.

Also, our average possession this season is 56% (5th best behind city, pool, leeds, chelsea). In 17-18 our average possession was 54%. Just shows we like to keep the ball more.
Click to expand...
We press a bit more in the attacking third but less in midfield, defense and overall. So a pressing game we can only dream of this is not. Forgive me but 2% more possesion in practically meaningless. That type of variance is expected season to season let alone across years and different managers.
 
Tyrion said:
We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.
Click to expand...
I disagree, there's an imbalance in the team right now that we are winning inspite of. The entire right side is pretty much unproductive and other than Pogba who has been injured for a large portion of the season, none of our midfielders are comfortable recieving the ball and playing progressively. I cannot imagine that our ability to dominate the lesser teams won't be enhanced by upgrading these positions. Regardless of whether it's a big or small team, we struggle against any team that gets the opportunity setup defensively against us. This is partly down to our patterns but also because of our limited offensive weapons. How many times have we heard the phrase "we need to move the ball quicker"? The better your players are technically, the easier it is to accomplish this.
 
Last edited:
For me with LVG you could see what he was trying to do. His interviews about players taking responsibility on the pitch were often criticised but are not that different to what Pep has been on record as saying.

His tenure won't be remembered fondly and I can see why. However for me some of what he was saying and the signings he made made sense, but ultimately didn't work out.

Under Ole there was a feel good factor and he has done ok. However stats don't tell the full story for me. Losing games is part and parcel of football and although I always want us to win, it's easier to handle a loss with a good display. I just don't see the displays at the moment and I have to say I do believe coaching is a major part of that.
 
Dante said:
Yes. Obviously.

LvG
SeasonxGxGA
14/15
54.21​
39.84​
15/16
45.42​
39.66​

Mourinho
SeasonxGxGA
16/17
57.57​
31.62​
17/18
59.04​
43.54​

Mourinho/Ole
SeasonxGxGA
18/19
68.62​
52.3​

Ole
SeasonxGxGA
19/20
66.19​
38.06​
20/21 so far
48.56​
32.34​

LvG and Mourinho played shit-on-a-stick football, but benefited from DDG keeping us in matches by being the best 'keeper in the world. Our poor teamplay seemed to get excused because we were still picking up points when we didn't deserve it.

Ole's teams have actually managed similar xGA numbers, but unfortunately conceded more because of DDG's drop in form. I guess you could make an argument that this is the manager's fault to some degree, but I think that would be harsh. It's just a natural decline of an ageing goalie.

On the more positive side, we've obviously been better at attacking and patently much more productive. The fact people are still unhappy shows how much standards are actually creeping up. It's only natural for fans to want their team to constantly improve. But Ole seems to get disproportionate criticism for failing to keep up with that demand. Probably because there's a contingent of posters who were against his appointment on day one, and want to be proven right on the internet. But If you look at it objectively, he's clearly done a better job than either of his predecessors.

Beyond the stats, I think the biggest achievement from Ole is how he's recomposed the squad. Jose's team was full of veterans at their peak/on their way down. Solksjaer's current team is matching Mourinho's side but doing so with a younger profile and is still very much on its way up.

We're also building the team around characters who wouldn't hesitate to put United first. It's been a massive cultural shift away from the mercenaries we'd been tricked into believing gave a shit about the club.

United can't afford the scatter gun transfer policy or Chelsea or City, and we can't rely on the unequivocal devotion that Barca or Real get from players raised in the latin world. We have to be cleverer than all of them. And for the first time since Fergie, that's what Ole's doing.
Click to expand...

If anyone ever forgets how boring we were under Van Gaal, the stats for goal scored or xG should be pinned to each thread.

We were so boring that we started cheering shot on target in first half of the matches. People somehow pick the run of 3-4 games to prove it was good and would have been better if given time, rest of the season was just average to poor.

He had ideas and set of playing which worked very well before. Because of so many factors, he couldn't implement that at ManUtd, so some credit to him for trying to change the philosophy of the club. But it's nearly 1/10 for implementation.
 
I don't understand why someone would use stats to prove how boring or otherwise our style of play is. How does a fan watch a match and think whether he was entertained or not will be determined in the days and weeks to come as the full story emerges as to how entertaining or otherwise the match was and how well or badly we played. The whole thing just exemplifies the insane rabbit hole we're in with football where stats have gone from mildly interesting pieces of trivia to the thing people genuinely seem to base their opinions around now. It's bizarre.

Honestly if you see us play 6 games and you like what you see during those games, or you don't like what you see or you sometimes like what you see and otherwise don't - isn't that you bring to the table in these dicussions?

"I thought I was entertained by football in this period but looking back at the stats I can clearly see how wrong I was, I will now seek therapy to ensure that any thoughts of pleasure are suppressed as these figures clearly prove what a fool I am"

Honestly a thread, effectively, about whether we play better football now or before (or indeed in the future) is entirely subjective and yet - stats, stats, stats, stats, stats. Some need to learn to form an opinion for once. This is my theory behind why some people aren't bothered by the impact of VAR on flow of the game, because the spectator enjoyment isn't important to them. They'll just glance up occasionally from their phone knowing they can find out how well it went after the game by finding out which player had the better pass completion rate in the final third than anyone else.
 
Tyrion said:
We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.
Click to expand...
Hmm I think with everyone fit we could of maintained a good record and wouldn’t of fell behind city by as much or at all. You also need a striker which we just don’t have. We’ve played some good stuff this year at times and it’s definitely getting better or was until pogba

Pogba was a big loss and I think only him and Bruno have the skills to break down the park the bus teams.
 
Tyrion said:
We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.
Click to expand...

I really don't know why this keeps coming, given that the record massively disproves the point. The simple fact is that we win almost all of our games against weaker teams who play a low block. Obviously it can be debated which opponents fit into the definition of a weaker team that plays a low block, but if we exclude big 6 + Leicester, and Everton this season, the following is true: Since Bruno's arrival we have lost precisely TWO such games in the PL - against Palace and Sheffield United. Additionally, we have draws against Palace and West Brom this year, and against West ham, Southampton, Everton and Wolves last year. That's it. The rest of them, we've won.

It's complete BS that "we're usually poor against settled teams".

Also, it simply is not correct that we rely on counterattack goals, and struggle to score from established play.

This season, we have (CL+PL):

Penalties: 12
Corners and free kicks: 9
Counterattacks: 21
Established play: 30

And, counterattack goals were more preponderant in the CL games than in the PL.

If we consider Palace, Newcastle, WBA, Southampton, West Ham, SHU, Wolves, Burnley and Fulham weaker teams who play a low block against United, our goal distribution against them in 14 games where we have scored at least one goal is like this:

Corners/free kicks: 3
Penalties: 3
Counterattack goals: 8
Established play: 20







Here's what our goals have been against weaker, low block teams:

CRP: 1 established
NEW: 1 off a corner, 1 established, 2 counter
WBA: 1 Penalty
SOU:
 
Last edited:
0le said:
For the people saying DDG propped up the stats for LvG and Mourinho, could opponents argue back and claim that Bruno has propped up the stats for Ole?
Click to expand...

Yes, but DDG is sat on 17th/21st in terms of the save% who played more than 10 premier league games in that position when we are the 4th "less shot on target against" team, including Ryan played 11 games at Brighton. I don't think this is a standard of a team who want to compete a tittle.
When the team want to challenge a tittle, it should not have a visible weaken point in the whole squad.
(P.S. I do not have a clean cut chance against stats on hands, so i do not know whether it is depended on defensive tactic.)

The awful is, DDG at 17/18 Jose Team is the one and only GK that have 80%+ saving (140 numbers of shot on target against, 3.78 per games) in full length of the whole season since 2010.

Then, I think when we have a mid-table rank goal keeper, we can walk far than now.

For your reference,
RankNameTeamMatchGoal AgainstGoal Against per 90minsShot on Target AgainstSaveSave%
1MartinezAston Villa27281.041229478.7%
2EdersonMan City29200.69604778.3%
3Nick PopeBurnley28321.1413010177.7%
4AreolaFulham28331.181199277.3%
5LlorisTottenham28301.071007977.0%
6MendyChelsea24160.67574375.4%
7MeslierLeeds27451.6714310673.4%
8PickfordEverton23291.29976972.2%
9AlissonLiverpool24261.08785571.8%
10SanchesBrighton17171.00533971.7%
11SchmeichelLeicester29321.101057371.4%
12FabianskiWest Ham26301.15966870.8%
13LenoArsenal27281.05916770.3%
14RamsdaleSheffield29551.9616211369.1%
15JohnstoneWest Brom28501.7215210569.1%
16PatricioWolves29381.311037368.9%
17DDGMan United24291.23775367.5%
18DarlowNewcastle25431.721208166.7%
19GuaitaCrystal Palace29471.621308466.2%
20McCarthySouthampton25481.921137061.9%
21RyanBrighton11191.73301650%
Source https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_squads_keeper
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.