Agreed
If Ole doesn’t revert to a conventional 4-3-3,then he”ll be gone by December….
- Thread starter Nikelesh Reddy
- Start date
Matic in an intense working midfield? You do realise how incredibly slow he is?
You only have to see the pressing stats in another thread. Ronaldo and Greenwood aren’t doing their defensive job. None of the front 3 are tracking back leaving us exposed. Take City as the best example. Every single player defends as a unit and presses. We simply don’t do that. Add into the mix Bruno being too high up the pitch and Pogba being a shambolic CM defensively I’m really not surprised we are constantly overrun in midfield.
I dont think there is any going back to be honest. We have to start dominating games. Means, we need to control the midfield. With Fred or McT it's not going to happen. He has to cut his ego and bring Donny back.
A base of Matic with Donny and Pogba would give us complete control. Rashford, Ronaldo and Mason would give us enough fire power up-front.
Knowing Ole, I don't think he has the balls to bring Donny and drop Bruno. We will continue to play 4231 and he will be sacked eventually
A base of Matic with Donny and Pogba would give us complete control. Rashford, Ronaldo and Mason would give us enough fire power up-front.
Knowing Ole, I don't think he has the balls to bring Donny and drop Bruno. We will continue to play 4231 and he will be sacked eventually
It's literally nothing to do with formation. It's to do with the coaching on and off the ball. 352, 442, 4231, 433, it doesn't matter that much. They can all be coached to be successful. But it needs an understanding of what our team has/needs for balance, and then the ability to coach them into how to execute it properly. Ole can't do either.
For a poster I rarely agree with, you’ve finally hit a nail on the head.
Formations are not the problem.
Until we have a defence that can stop opposition goals we are going to struggle and our entire coaching team, despite the playing talent available, seem to be going backwards
Until we have a defence that can stop opposition goals we are going to struggle and our entire coaching team, despite the playing talent available, seem to be going backwards
Till Christmas??? He has to go yesterday.
I agree formations aren't the problem, but it goes way deeper than the defence. Our attack is also awful relative to the talent we have out on the pitch, there is no identity, no way of playing, we rely on individual brilliance to create things. How often do you see us actually slice through the opposition in a game?
The problem with the OP's team is there is no work rate in it, you've got a front 3 that will barely press, then a midfield 3 with Pogba who needs legs around him, but then put two players around him who are slow. That team would be totally overrun, which tbh is already what happens vs anyone half decent anyway.
I completely agree. However, It means dropping Bruno and I don't think Ole has the guts or balls for that.
Unfortunately, it will be Pogba that will be dropped and it won't make much difference as Bruno will still be playing second striker and leaving massive gaps between him and the midfield base.
Unfortunately, it will be Pogba that will be dropped and it won't make much difference as Bruno will still be playing second striker and leaving massive gaps between him and the midfield base.
Imagine actually thinking that a change of formation is the answer to his problems
If we can fix the defence first, we'll be halfway there. I think that's the low hanging fruit
More perforations than a Tetley's teabag
Our best and most balanced midfield trio is Matic as DM (the one shielding the back 4)- Fred as CM (the link between the defence and attack) - Pogba as CM (as the most advanced midfielder). It doesn't include McTominay or Bruno. And Fred is probably the most crucial & essential part of that trio too.
I've been saying this for months on various platforms but everyone has got their heads so far up Bruno's ass just because of his stats and Fred was the easy target to blame but we can't both have Pogba & Bruno in the same team. Like we can't have Cavani & Ronaldo at the same time. Funnily enough the only Portuguese who should be in the starting XI is Diogo Dalot.
I've been saying this for months on various platforms but everyone has got their heads so far up Bruno's ass just because of his stats and Fred was the easy target to blame but we can't both have Pogba & Bruno in the same team. Like we can't have Cavani & Ronaldo at the same time. Funnily enough the only Portuguese who should be in the starting XI is Diogo Dalot.
Exactly. Management isn’t just about a formation. It’s about coaching players to do exactly what you want, and that requires motivation, and he’s lost that quality, if he ever had it.
This play formation X Y Z crap again. It does not matter if Ole play 352 433 442 or whatever you name it because he does not have the tactical knowledge to apply those formations effectively. A lot of world class managers already said that formation does not matter at all, it is just a base shape in which your team play. 352 can be offensive and defensive depending on the coach. 433 will not magically make this team plays better unless the one who plays the formation is a new manager. This is not FIFA.
I wonder if the intention was to shift to 3-4-3 but the failure to sign Trippier and a DM meant we couldnt do it. Sancho played in that system at Dortmund and Trippier frequently plays as a wing back. We definitely need to evolve in some different direction.
Whatever formation he chooses, the issue is the players still dont know what to do with or without the ball. There’s the cohesion at all, no chemistry.
Exactly. The issue is not the formation, its the manager himself. Players are clueless under this regime.
Exactly. The issue is not the formation, its the manager himself. Players are clueless under this regime.
let's not put things so complicated. The unbalance is actually just one problem: we devote 6 players (top 3 + Bruno + LB & RB) to commit so-called high press , but basically zero reward out of it and opponents always easy to bypass the pressing and face directly the remain 4 .
Let's admit it, Ole did not know how to coach high-press tactics. The best results under his reign is always counter-attack. If we would like to stop the bleeding quickly, the best tactics would be going back to counter-attack: all come back after losing the balls instead of leaving positions trying to recover it right away; stay compact in our half instead of pushing lines high to press.
To achieve it, personnel wise, we need to do all of the following:
1) Drop Sancho and play Rashford (speed and more direct run behind the lines)
2) Drop either Pogba / Bruno (we need one of them for long range pass accuracy, but could not afford both for blocking spaces in defense)
3) Play Ronaldo / Cavani evenly (they have to lead counter-attack with long-range full-speed run , neither of them could sustain 90 mins )
Let's admit it, Ole did not know how to coach high-press tactics. The best results under his reign is always counter-attack. If we would like to stop the bleeding quickly, the best tactics would be going back to counter-attack: all come back after losing the balls instead of leaving positions trying to recover it right away; stay compact in our half instead of pushing lines high to press.
To achieve it, personnel wise, we need to do all of the following:
1) Drop Sancho and play Rashford (speed and more direct run behind the lines)
2) Drop either Pogba / Bruno (we need one of them for long range pass accuracy, but could not afford both for blocking spaces in defense)
3) Play Ronaldo / Cavani evenly (they have to lead counter-attack with long-range full-speed run , neither of them could sustain 90 mins )
James with his work rate would have been covering for the flaws in the team. Last season we finished the season with four good forward players in Rashford, Edi, Bruno and Greenwood. We had Diallo who came in, scored a good goal and was put to pasture immediately after, I suspected that denying him further chances was because the manager wanted to prove that Sancho was needed.
We needed midfield reinforcements more than we needed new forwards and teams have identified our midfield as a major weakness to be exploited. McFred have lost self belief and look like the walking dead, we have seen this with Smalling and Jones - when players are continuously getting exposed to humiliation and ridicule they become worse than they are.
People lauded Ole for the rebuild but his decisions over the past two summers have been shocking because besides Varane non of the players that he has signed has added anything to the first team. That's £150m wasted on players we didn't need or don't want to use.
The problem lie with the mentality. We seem to have an aversion to just skip midfield altogether and move the ball upfront as quickly as possible. That needs to change. In my opinion we need to become humbler and start winning ball possession again. Against Liverpool I'd play Matic, McT/Fred and Bruno, with Rashford (if fit) and Sancho and Greenwood, in a 4-3-3 formation
Either a 4-3-3 or a 3-4-3 either way we need to stiffen up the spine of the team but I don't think any of those works with Ronnie. Like you said in the EPL you need everyone pulling his weight which we won't get with Ronaldo and the odd tap in won't make up for that.
Against Atalanta, I want to see a proper 3-5-2 and get back to basics. Become solid first with a back three of Shaw, Maguire/Lindelof and Bailly/Varane (fitness permitting). Midfield of Matic and Donny with Bruno ahead and a front two of Rashford and Cavani with Telles and Dalot completing the team.
I want Ole to be sacked but I want to see him fight for his job, he has to protect himself and field a team that will work its socks off. He should stop pandering to egos and respecting past achievements.
Ole will sooner play double pivot of Bruno-Pogba than switch to 3 man midfield. The latter requires dropping a forward, and he's not making that unpopular decision. Not when we have 8 big names for 4 positions.
The guy is done imo, just a matter of time. And a matter of whether we will be in any race once we steady the ship under next manager.
The guy is done imo, just a matter of time. And a matter of whether we will be in any race once we steady the ship under next manager.
Right on. I'm one of those. Ole's not gonna solve this. He and his coaching staff have proven themselves to be incompetent.
We could play 5-5-5, would not matter as long as we dont put in the work on the field.
Lazy, arrogant, casual, greedy, pedestrian. Those are the words that come to mind after seeing us this season. I wish it was as simple as a formation change, but it runs much deeper than that
Lazy, arrogant, casual, greedy, pedestrian. Those are the words that come to mind after seeing us this season. I wish it was as simple as a formation change, but it runs much deeper than that
Whatever the debates here, Ole will at least stay this season.
He has made mistakes, he has been meek, he can 't look beyond his personal favourites.
That all has to change.
He has got the players, he has to build the team. He has got only 3 days to do it. It's time he became more ruthless and braver. My belief and hope is he can do it.
He has made mistakes, he has been meek, he can 't look beyond his personal favourites.
That all has to change.
He has got the players, he has to build the team. He has got only 3 days to do it. It's time he became more ruthless and braver. My belief and hope is he can do it.
At this most in time the balance of the team is all wrong. Ole would be better off going with a team that he had some success with. If that means dropping certain players so be it. The likes of Sancho, Pogba and Ronaldo have done nothing in recent weeks. Tighten up the defence for starters. That might means 3-5-2 or playing McFred again.
This is sure, but he is not smart enough to change
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For the players the has, he should play as a unit with a low defence line and playing only in counter attack
But he is not smart enough to understand this
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For the players the has, he should play as a unit with a low defence line and playing only in counter attack
But he is not smart enough to understand this
100% agreed. We are missing structure and a game plan, no matter what formation, which is imo mainly down to the team lacking balance, the right side is still pretty much a lame duck attacking wise and the double pivot in midfield just simply doesn't work, no matter the pairing.
I said this after the draw with Everton. 4-3-3 is the way forward.
Bruno - Matic - DVB
Bruno players deeper than usual but he's still the more attacking CM. He can press well too which helps. Matic is our only true DM so has to start and Donny can provide the legs.
Bruno - Matic - DVB
Bruno players deeper than usual but he's still the more attacking CM. He can press well too which helps. Matic is our only true DM so has to start and Donny can provide the legs.
We can't drop Bruno, that would be insane. But I think you're right that there is clearly now a balance issue in the team. For a long while we had a lot of success playing both Matic/Pogba and McFred in the central pivot, but it is evident that simply isn't working. Maybe having Ronaldo up there rather than Cavani or Martial has a systemic impact that has tipped the balance, maybe teams have just figured out how to deal effectively with our midfield, but whatever it is, it's not working. Some sort of major adjustment has to come.
The trouble is, we don't really have the pieces do we. Matic cannot be the defensive guy, that seems clear. You saw it yesterday - what he now offers is a good deal of quality incisive forward passing, with the occasional key tackle or repossession and the somewhat more frequent ball loss or foul in dangerous positions, but he just doesn't exercise steady control defensively. To be effective, he needs buffering. Fred at least offers industry, energy and work rate, of which we were painfully short yesterday. If it's going to be a midfield 3, our best option in my view is McTominay, Fred and either Bruno or Pogba, with McT in the deep role. But whichever way you shuffle the deck, you end up with players playing in a role they're only partially suited for.
As City shows, top offensive players can thrive in a midfield set-up like that and have the freedom to go forward, but that presupposes a front 3 that works a lot harder without the ball than ours do - otherwise the midfield just gets overrun. We have played in a way emphasising diligent pressing from the forwards before under Ole, notably during his caretaker phase, but that notion does run headlong into the question "then why have you signed Ronaldo?" He may be GOAT, but he is also literally in the bottom 1% of forwards in Europe in terms of pressing.
Frankly, if playing Ronaldo means benching Bruno, then I'd rather we didn't have him. And though the team's travails is not Ronaldo's fault, it is starting to look like we're not really a team suited to integrating him and that doing so is a major obstacle to necessary adjustments. If we can't rely on forwards pressing, then there is no other option than constructing a midfield capable of dealing with the consequences of that. With the players we currently have, that is difficult to do, and it's hard to see how it can be done without sacrificing a forward spot.
If we do that, that means either doing without a no 10, or doing without wide forwards and play two up front. Either of which would remove a key aspect of our offensive game.
I really, really hope OGS and the coaching team is quickly able to come up with some sort of working solution that I can't see. Because as things stand right now, we seem to have built ourselves into a cul-de-sac.
I don't think Matic is that though. At this point, what he provides is primarily good forward passing. He can't control the game defensively, certainly not as a lone player at the back.
I saw a post a couple of weeks ago that said it is not down to coaching that we're misplacing 10 yard passes, it is the player's fault. It is absolutely down to coaching, down to the standards we set. Hargreaves said after the Everton game if it were Sir Alex in charge Fred wouldn't play for a month after the mistakes he made.
The manager needs standards and be ruthless about it. Every day in training and then every game, not playing based on reputation. Ole seems like hes willing to be the big man against someone like VDB but is scared shitless of Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba.
The issue we have is ideological, Ole is at the extreme end in the ideological difference between possession play and direct vertical play. We don't have the right mix between control and the need to attack at every instance. Thus we don't value players who excel at this aspect of the game, Ole wouldn't have time for Carrick for example.
This explains Donny's problems here, we don't have the structure, the right players nor the intention to control possession. This also introduces another weakness, our contempt for possession play tenets leads us to be extremely vulnerable when pressed. We could bring in Xavi but we'd still be lost with the ball.
Should be gone before November.
Drop Bruno is the solution
Of course. When things go wrong the best move is to drop your best player. That should sort everything out. It's worked really well for Barca since they got rid of that albatross around their neck Messi.
As for "It’s no coincidence that our record in the big games has been poor ever since Bruno joined the club" . . .
It's also no coincidence that the record against everyone was poor before Bruno joined the club.
Have a feeling we’ll beat Liverpool with a 4231. Ole Gunnar Moments at its finest.
It's very possible. Fred and McTominay are the ideal midfield 2 for this tougher run of games.
Pogba and Matic is definitely not. If they play those 2 vs Liverpool is could get ugly.
I think we really do need to have to take a risk and try out something unconventional to solve our midfield issue, I'm talking trying someone like bissaka, telles or shaw.
It sounds absurd but fergie also did it in the past with the likes of phil neville and jones, we have nothing to lose we exhausted nearly every midfield combination and it hasn't succeeded.
I think tuanzebe could have been a very good fill in option as a defensive midfielder as he was a quick, strong and athletic player that was good with the ball at his feet.
It sounds absurd but fergie also did it in the past with the likes of phil neville and jones, we have nothing to lose we exhausted nearly every midfield combination and it hasn't succeeded.
I think tuanzebe could have been a very good fill in option as a defensive midfielder as he was a quick, strong and athletic player that was good with the ball at his feet.
This is actually my fear. He has the perfect run of fixtures to implement a counter attacking setup and has Rashford back as well. Can see us getting results against the bigger sides and the narrative around “trusting the process” gaining traction again....when in fact it is as it always has been...Ole can set a team up well to play in the counter...nothing more...
imagine if Simone or Mourinho tried to pretend they could also play attacking possession based football. They can’t. So they don’t. They are unapologetic for their footballing styles and elite in their fields. It’s clear what level Ole is at...he is just in a role and club that can’t accept defensive football first.
He fits the club in every other way...bar his ability to coach.