How we fail in our build-up and why

croadyman said:
Absolutely spot on but be careful because the staunch Ole supporters or top reds will come after you for saying it, you will probably end up being told that your a plastic or to feck off and support Chelsea/City/scousers.
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So true. Our fans often aren't the smartest. Being a top red means taking loyalty to the company line over thinking for yourself.

But the not great coach and the not ideal playing personnel do have a common root which is the not great owners. Ole is someone who can keep the fans onside and won't rock the boat when we underspend (no DM), or spend in a way that's not football first.
 
Lentwood said:
What amazes me about threads like this is this - do posters on here genuinely believe that amateur tacticians on Twitter have identified something that our team of coaches and analysts are not aware of?

It's one thing to say, 'Utd have this issue, Utd have that issue', it's another entirely to actually coach sub-standard/limited players to do something better/differently - especially when you're dealing with senior players like Fred or Matic.

Let's have it right, even Pep hasn't been able to coach many of the players he inherited at City. He's simply just replaced the many, many players he didn't feel were coachable.
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The thing is, some of the things we're complaining about are things lower level teams manage to do better even with lesser players.

For example a team like Brighton are much better structured in their build-up play than we are. That's why they look so good statistically, only to be let down in reality because their players are complete sacks of shite. But that doesn't stop them from being well organised sacks of shite.
 
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reelworld said:
I agree with the point that Ole doesn't care about possession that much. But Liverpool have great move and pass ability from their midfielders to create space and time for their fullbacks to go up and create something.
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Ole doesn’t have the same type of players that Liverpool has, nor the same ability to coach that pass and move ability/structure into his players. But he does seem to want to play an intense high-pressing game in which we win the ball and then immediately attack during the transition while also being able to take care of the ball when needed, a bit like Liverpool in Klopp’s earlier seasons did (Liverpool nowadays are more possession-based I believe, but less so than City). But we’re also way, way less committed to the press than Liverpool is/was. So… I don’t think we’re doing too much of anything really.
 
sp_107 said:
'That's exactly where they will fall short': Roy Keane criticises Manchester United's players AGAIN | Daily Mail Online
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While I dont completely disagree, I believe Pogba will start for any team in the EPL as long as he is not expected to play in a double pivot.
He is technically more consistent than most midfielders, his problem is with the defensive side of the game. He is ideal in a 3.

Our problems are beyond the double pivot, BRUNO FERNANDEZ is also a major part of the problem. No matter who we get in midfield two, we will come short against any decent opposition if Bruno continues to play as a striker.
 
sp_107 said:
Fred/Pogba/McT/Matic wont start for chelsea/City/Pool, simple
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Pogba will definitely make it as part of the midfield 3 of either City or Liverpool.
Bruno though will not start for city in any formation with the way he plays. Too risky in possession.
Both Bruno and Pogba though are tactically naive.
 
Lentwood said:
What amazes me about threads like this is this - do posters on here genuinely believe that amateur tacticians on Twitter have identified something that our team of coaches and analysts are not aware of?

It's one thing to say, 'Utd have this issue, Utd have that issue', it's another entirely to actually coach sub-standard/limited players to do something better/differently - especially when you're dealing with senior players like Fred or Matic.

Let's have it right, even Pep hasn't been able to coach many of the players he inherited at City. He's simply just replaced the many, many players he didn't feel were coachable.
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Exactly. The paid analysts within the club will be all over this type of thing. Or at the very worst reading the same stuff on twitter.

Im sure some on here would think I (poor Sunday league level) could be coached into a competent PL defensive midfielder if I showed up on the squad list one day. All it would take is a couple of sessions with Tuchel.
 
Lentwood said:
What amazes me about threads like this is this - do posters on here genuinely believe that amateur tacticians on Twitter have identified something that our team of coaches and analysts are not aware of?

It's one thing to say, 'Utd have this issue, Utd have that issue', it's another entirely to actually coach sub-standard/limited players to do something better/differently - especially when you're dealing with senior players like Fred or Matic.

Let's have it right, even Pep hasn't been able to coach many of the players he inherited at City. He's simply just replaced the many, many players he didn't feel were coachable.
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This is just the Mourinho fallacy - the idea that, until you have world class players in every position, you can’t even do the basics right.

If being able to understand basic coaching and positioning was the preserve of super elite footballers, then most football matches would be little more than kick and rush. Only a handful of teams would be able to keep the ball for more than two or three passes at a time.

In fact, you can watch any old midtable Bundesliga game this weekend and you’ll most likely see two teams who are well drilled and hard working, whatever other limitations their players may have.
 
Goes back to the team lacking balance once again. Players don’t complement each other in the midfield. Fred needs McTominay as an a example. Put him in midfield with Pogba and it’s a complete mess because Pogba doesn’t track back. This has been a problem since day one with Pogba and how it’s not been resolved by signing a DM is bad management by the club.

Either we need to buy the right player for midfield or you don’t play Fred with Pogba as the midfield 2. Fred needs more help in there. I would be interested to see Donny with Fred in midfield as an option. I’m not saying this is the answer because with Donny in midfield we have similar problems with our defence. Ole’s lack of changing things in the League Cup for example means we don’t get to see other ideas.

In terms of transitioning De Gea is terribly slow to release the ball. Lindelof and Maguire take too long to release it as well. How those three start a game normally indicates how we will play. If they are very slow in the first 10 minutes we generally have a painfully poor first 45.
 
E-mal said:
While I dont completely disagree, I believe Pogba will start for any team in the EPL as long as he is not expected to play in a double pivot.
He is technically more consistent than most midfielders, his problem is with the defensive side of the game. He is ideal in a 3.

Our problems are beyond the double pivot, BRUNO FERNANDEZ is also a major part of the problem. No matter who we get in midfield two, we will come short against any decent opposition if Bruno continues to play as a striker.
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So we have 2 midfielders to fit in to 3-man midfield but both of them are not really capable of holding the ball and bring balane to the system?

I know Bruno is an impact player but apart from his goals and assits his overall game is bit meh to me, and Pogba never had the diciplline needed to play in 2 man or 3 man functioning midfieled (he is more of a luxary player needed 2 DM's behind him). All this means we need 2 more CM's least to bring the balance needed to unleash our front 4.

Pogba should be our Scholes but looks like he never came close. hope we move him on and buy the right player instead of keeping him for the name sake.

May be Neves in this window could fill in one slot next to either McTominay or Fred behinf Bruno could improve our team and next year we could look at playing Hannibal and Neves in double pivot.
 
Our 6-0-4 formation doesn’t help.

de Gea, Wan-Bissaka & Greenwood won that game yesterday in spite of Ole & his coaching staff.
 
E-mal said:
Pogba will definitely make it as part of the midfield 3 of either City or Liverpool.
Bruno though will not start for city in any formation with the way he plays. Too risky in possession.
Both Bruno and Pogba though are tactically naive.
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They literally play De Bruyne. I swear people think De Bruyne is Xavi.

His passing completion % is only 3-4 higher than Bruno's despite playing in a more optimal side for keeping the ball.
 
worldinmotion66 said:
Obviously he'll play instead of cavani (or pogba). No matter which one you leave out, we have a strong option on the bench. Thanks for completely ignoring the point of the post though.
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It was just a bit of banter.

Don't take it so serious :D
 
sullydnl said:
The thing is, some of the things we're complaining about are things lower level teams manage to do better even with lesser players.

For example a team like Brighton are much better structured in their build-up play than we are. That's why they look so good statistically, only to be let down in reality because their players are complete sacks of shite. But that doesn't stop them from being well organised sacks of shite.
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Brighton don't face teams who let them dominate the ball.

It's totally different playing with the ball compared to playing without it.

Case in point. The Wolves game. We had nearly 60% possession but barely created a chance. ALL of their chances came from us giving the ball away and breaking on us at pace (even the corner for the Saiz chance was won this way).

Its exactly what we do to City every year under Ole. Sit in, let them have it, choose our three fastest attackers, break on them at pace.

I guarantee you, if Wolves and Brighton were given the chance to dominate possession, they wouldn't have a clue what to do with it.
 
More than tactics, problem is Fred's inability to make good use of the ball. He does all the hustle real well and spoils the play, but his poor decision making/passing messes up that move immediately.

With Scott by his side, he just hands it over to him as he can run with the ball and take player on. Without him, he has to seek a player who is playing a bit further and that's where the comedy/tragedy starts.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No. That’s not true. Maguire, Lindelof and Shaw are all very good on the ball. AWB is decent too. In terms of ability on the ball, our back four is better than most. Our keeper is a big problem and Fred’s recurrent brain farts/Matic’s lack of mobility/McT’s poor positioning are a problem.

The rest of them are fine.
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I actually disagree on AWB - he's always been poor on the ball and positioning. Miriam highlights this fairly well:



 
Litch said:
Nice try. Is it a paradox if I was asking about Klopp or Pep?
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Well yes, because they wouldn't ever be given the chance to manage at a top level because you're saying they have never proven themselves at a top level before. By this logic they would never have been appointed at a top club
 
Lentwood said:
Brighton don't face teams who let them dominate the ball.

It's totally different playing with the ball compared to playing without it.

Case in point. The Wolves game. We had nearly 60% possession but barely created a chance. ALL of their chances came from us giving the ball away and breaking on us at pace (even the corner for the Saiz chance was won this way).

Its exactly what we do to City every year under Ole. Sit in, let them have it, choose our three fastest attackers, break on them at pace.

I guarantee you, if Wolves and Brighton were given the chance to dominate possession, they wouldn't have a clue what to do with it.
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Last season Brighton averaged 51% possession. We averaged 55%. Not that different really.
 
Feck me, There's some car crash views on this thread :lol: :lol:
 
Suedesi said:
I actually disagree on AWB - he's always been poor on the ball and positioning. Miriam highlights this fairly well:



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Some of the points in that video are terrible, for example, McTominay was never an option to receive the ball as he was man marked. He made run to the channel as there was a possibility of flick which would have set him free.

AWB messed up by playing poor pass, decent pass Matic could have easily played the pass to free CBs.
 
It’s fairly obvious to me that we miss one vital cog in the midfield operation. That is basically a footballer like we had with Michael Carrick for years. He was quietly integral under our great Ferguson teams.

A player that can receive the ball in tight areas, create space for easy but effective passes out of defence, neatly link play to our more attacking minded midfielders & wide players and ping the odd outstanding long range pass to our quick forwards.

In Matic, McTominay and Fred, I would respectively describe them as work horses in the mould of an O’Shea, Cleverley & Anderson from the Ferguson days. But to this day, we have never replaced Carrick. If and it’s a big if, we can sign a player of his capabilities and qualities, then we are serious title contenders. It is such an important position on the pitch to get right both defensively and for starting attacks.
 
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crossy1686 said:
Well yes, because they wouldn't ever be given the chance to manage at a top level because you're saying they have never proven themselves at a top level before. By this logic they would never have been appointed at a top club
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True but that could apply to signing players too from lower clubs. Would you prefer signing a player from the championship or prem proven? It's not about top level, it's about transition and trajectory to the top level. Surely you can see the challenge for a manager if that learning curve is steeper moving from Molde to Utd? It's not a criticism, just an observation?
 
I have listened to a few (German) interviews by Klopp, Tuchel and Nagelsmann and they always come up with pretty detailed in depth analysis and game plan tactics. They explain what kind of spaces they want to occupy against which opponent, how to use the ball in certain areas, how the off the ball movement has to be adopted, in which area of the pitch to press, where to make the space smaller and where to stretch it, and in which phase they change plans and try something different depending on the own players or how the other team has set up.
Never have I witnessed Ole talking in such detail. I am no expert so it easy to impress someone like me, but often when I watch us play I really have the feeling that nobody concentrates on these kind of things. Maybe he is of the opinion that this kind of expert rambling is not of interest for the majority of the fans.

Don't get me wrong, Ole has my backing for the next months as long as the results are ok - he deserves that. However, looking at the players we have available our football should be better than it actually is in 4 out of 5 games.
 
sullydnl said:
And a counter-argument thread, at least regarding his use of metrics.

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Just a difference in perspectives. Its not a huge surprise that a Dutchman has a different view of football than a Brit.
 


Another Laurie-thread. With all the talk about Lindelof at DM I would really prefer this system. 343.

I think all our midfielders, who could need a DM, would improve with more support from our defence. Matic, for instance, is quite good on the ball, but he lacks a lof of it (instincts, pace and mobility). I also think it could be interesting to see Lingard as a right midfielder/wingback in this system.

I would like to see this system for our next game (if McTominay is out):

DDG

Varane - Lindelof - Maguire

Lingard - Fred/Matic - Pogba - Shaw

Greenwood - Ronaldo - Bruno
 
#07 said:
Just a difference in perspectives. Its not a huge surprise that a Dutchman has a different view of football than a Brit.
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Laurie is american actually. But, unlike van Hemmen, he is actually doing quite well as a coach.

I’ve read a lot from van Hemmen, but actually stopped following him awhile ago. Very attention-seeking and the type that loves to disagree/quarrel. Abit dutch that too, IMO. I also find him quite childish at times. And even more annoying, he is not even half as clever as he think he is.

I get his point, but I think this is a bit of the same from him. Laurie did not say that any move of the ball into the final third is good buildup. He used the inability to move the ball higher up the pitch as an indication of poor buildup.

That being said, I think he is wrong too. Liverpool do most of their progression at wider areas of the pitch. I think massiball (Massimiliano) gave him a great answer.
 
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We're normally pretty good at the build up phase. Had a bad day at the office last weekend, though.

Having just rewatched the Wolves game and it's pretty obvious that Lage had told Trincao and Traore to press Fred and Pogba incessantly in the first half. And it worked. Neither in our midfield is press resistant and Wolves had a field day.

Then in the second half, Wolves switched their press to target Shaw on the left and Greenwood on the right (they left AWB completely alone funnily enough). Presumably, this was to conserve energy. But it also gave United a foothold in the game.

I think everyone will agree that United coped better in the second half when Wolves limited their press to our flanks. Which means the obvious solution is to buy better press resistant midfielders to be able to handle what they did in the first half.
 
You know what annoys me about that Laurie post, “winning on a bad day is also a great characteristic to have”
He is right but unfortunately that was a normal day for United. With the same issues in their play that we saw all last season.

Still very early so here is hoping something changes but if it hasn’t by now I don’t think it ever will. We’ll do well against the top teams where we get space and can exploit them with our pace but we are easy to nullify.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
He is right but unfortunately that was a normal day for United. With the same issues in their play that we saw all last season.
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Correct. That was a normal day. We have seen it way too often now. I see a major issue with our set up. Attacking and defensive issues.

When we play the bigger teams and we set up on the counter, we are fine because all we do is sit in our half and be compact, hit teams on the break. The problem is we face 2/3 teams that we can do that to. If we want to win the league, we cannot play like that against Southampton and Wolves, thats what happened, when they had the ball, we stepped off and let them have it.

Unfortunately, against the smaller teams we are not as compact, the opposition string 4/5 passes and they are outside our penalty area, whereas when we attack 4/5 passes gets us to our CB most times, with no way of getting the ball to the forwards to turn.

Last season we got 2nd playing like this but I cant see us challenging playing this style. We will draw too many games.
 
Rash Decision said:
Ole doesn’t have the same type of players that Liverpool has, nor the same ability to coach that pass and move ability/structure into his players. But he does seem to want to play an intense high-pressing game in which we win the ball and then immediately attack during the transition while also being able to take care of the ball when needed, a bit like Liverpool in Klopp’s earlier seasons did (Liverpool nowadays are more possession-based I believe, but less so than City). But we’re also way, way less committed to the press than Liverpool is/was. So… I don’t think we’re doing too much of anything really.
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I think the press + win the ball back high up and put teams under the cosh systems aren't very sustainable. Even City fall back quite quickly these days when they lose possession against the average PL team - just ends up being a lot better player fatigue / injury wise over the course of a season.

IMO It's fine to concede territory and invite opposition on to you if you can then:

(a) recover the ball and counter attack quickly (we're very good at this).
(b) build up play from a goal kick or a throw-in deep in our half (we're fairly shit here).

In attack, you can get away with extreme levels of over reliance on individual ability. We pay some of the highest wages in the PL, so by default you have good attacking players and they're good enough on their own to win most games playing in a fairly loose structure. But if you try to rely on individual ability in an almost set piece like situation of evading an opponent press from a GK, you're going to get burned.

Which is why regardless of who plays at CM / RB we get endless complaints of their on the ball ability and calls out for young Matics or Carrick like players as if they were some sort of silver bullets. I am almost certain that even if we sign Jorginho / Toni Kroos / Thiago right now, we'd be equally shit at our build up play.
 
elmo said:
Not in midfield.
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Yes he 100% would. Liverpool have Curtis Jones playing in their midfield 3. Pogba would start alongside Kante for Chelsea, whether they pull Mount deeper to make it a 3 or think Kante can handle the defensive load himself. Pogba suits City's midfield perfectly, they already play the likes of KDB, Bernardo Silva, David Silva before, and now Grealish there (I know he has played the majority on the left but he has also played in cm for them and I assume he will play there more throughout the season). Gundogan and Rodrigo offer enough since they dominate the ball anyway. Pogba probably starts for any team in the world if wages/price aren't an issue, he's absolutely a world class midfielder
 
Dazzmondo said:
Yes he 100% would. Liverpool have Curtis Jones playing in their midfield 3. Pogba would start alongside Kante for Chelsea, whether they pull Mount deeper to make it a 3 or think Kante can handle the defensive load himself. Pogba suits City's midfield perfectly, they already play the likes of KDB, Bernardo Silva, David Silva before, and now Grealish there (I know he has played the majority on the left but he has also played in cm for them and I assume he will play there more throughout the season). Gundogan and Rodrigo offer enough since they dominate the ball anyway. Pogba probably starts for any team in the world if wages/price aren't an issue, he's absolutely a world class midfielder
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Nah, he'll start on the left like where he played for us in the leeds game. He's just too inconsistent to start in their midfield where the manager actually expects his players to have tactical discipline.

If Pogba is a world class midfielder, our midfield wouldn't be such a shit show like it has been ever since Carrick retired.
 
Ali Dia said:
Nice post. I totally agree. You can see how playing out from the keeper is becoming very important in the hyper pressing era. Fair play to city and Liverpool for getting specialists. Sorry for the terrible example but in FM if I’m looking at much younger keepers I’m looking for a giant with good kicking. All the rest can be developed. The kicking stat is always already pretty high in the right youngsters, if they’ve got it they’ve got it. Think how ahead of his time someone like VDS was in the 90s? Such a pity we slept on him and let him go to Fulham that time. Awesome shot stopping and reliable with his feet and always a cool customer under pressure.
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Just to be accurate, in FM kicking determines how far he can kick its the passing that determines the accuracy. A bit off tangent but ya..
 
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