Henderson reportedly stormed out of training after being told he wasn't playing against Villa

ManchesterManchester said:
BTW Henderson did have the opportunity to play and didn’t take it. He couldn’t even replace ageing De Gea.
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There is a difference between being linked and a club actually committing finances to try and buy someone. If he was good enough then clubs would have put up the money. Even now nobody is trying to get him and the transfer window is open. I do agree that big clubs getting our players is rare but it’s not when a player is unhappy (Di Maria as an example). Anyway, I am expecting a smaller PL club to take him as that is his level until proven otherwise.
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There is, but if United are readying a new contracting and promising first team opportunities for a player that doesn't want to leave then why would they have bothered actually making a formal move? Clubs don't commit until they know a player is interested in the move and at that time there is nothing to indicate he would have been.

And regarding the first bit, he actually did replace him and we were much better for it. He was going to begin this season as number one, that was universally reported and accepted, he caught Covid and De Gea started the season well so Ole stuck with him.
 
VanDeBank said:
You're arguing why you don't rate DDG. I don't disagree, if you want him replaced for Onana, I could get behind that.

Dave plays nearly every game and this season has been making world class saves nearly every game.
Hendo's stinkers were literally every other game during his run last season. DDG's stinkers save-wise are an anomaly.

It's not like the VDB scenario where he never plays. Hendo got a run of games and showed he was comparable to last season's DDG, which just isn't good enough. You're still highly critical of Dave when his shot stopping form is world class right now, so what does that say about Henderson?

Unai Simon is a decent GK btw and much better than Henderson.
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Onana is nowhere near good enough, Henderson is already there, so it makes sense to give him a good run at it.

The stats don't lie. He might have had a few stinkers, but overall the defence and the team were better for having him in goals.

If goalkeeping was only about making saves, DDG would be the first pick for everyone. But it's not, it's about a hell of a lot more than that and he just isn't good enough at everything else.

I'm also highly critical of his all round game being a massive negative for the whole team, a lot of his saves could be dealt with before the shot if he'd just claim a ball in the air. The Villa disallowed goal the other night is a prime example, he should be claiming the first ball, then the second one he won't be flapping at it as it goes past him.

You cannot play a highline with him in goal, you cannot play out from the back with him in goal. The team struggles to defend set pieces or any ball played in high or over the top. Because he is just rooted to his line.
 
JB7 said:
His shot stopping may not be as good - not many goalkeepers are, but his positioning is comfortably as good. Positioning was a weak aspect of DDGs game even when he was a much better goalkeeper than he is now.
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Where did you see that? Positioning has many aspects, not just commanding the box. One on one situations — De Gea is on another level.
 
AaronRedDevil said:
He's barely played this season. And to be fair, he seemed way more confident coming out for the ball rather then hiding. He needs to be given at least 5 games in a row to really judge him. But that might now happen at all this season.
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He has played last season and the season before at Sheffield where he was just okay. Nothing to suggest anything other than where he is right now.
 
Paxi said:
He has played last season and the season before at Sheffield where he was just okay. Nothing to suggest anything other than where he is right now.
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At Sheffield he was not just okay. He was very very very much beyond being just okay.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Our squad management is atrocious. The back up keeper should be a solid veteran ( Van der Gouw was perfect), not someone looking to establish himself and break into the England team. Henderson is probably not good enough but, if he has received promises about fighting for the no. 1 shirt, I can understand his frustration.
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We can likely blame the old manager on both accounts.
 
Paxi said:
Where did you see that? Positioning has many aspects, not just commanding the box. One on one situations — De Gea is on another level.
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Fully aware of what positioning entails and it has literally never been a strong point of DDGs game. And as for one on ones I presume you're joking or watching DDG from about 5/6 years ago?
 
JB7 said:
Fully aware of what positioning entails and it has literally never been a strong point of DDGs game. And as for one on ones I presume you're joking or watching DDG from about 5/6 years ago?
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I don't know if I agree with that. De Gea's abilities as a shot stopper are in my opinion linked to his elite positioning while his shortcomings are based on his extremely poor ability to move around his box, one on ones included.
 
I don’t know what United promised him, but I can’t feel all that bad for him because he signed the contract. He wants to leave put in a transfer request.
 
Kag said:
He did. He started reguarly in the league from March onwards and performed well. He was, by many accounts, due to start the season as Ole’s #1 until he contracted a bad bout of Covid and was unable to participate in pre season. De Gea started the season well, Ole lost his job, and here we are. Don’t bother rewriting the narrative. Henderson was even tipped to push Pickford for his place during the Euros up until he had to withdraw due to injury, so the idea that he ‘didn’t take his opportunity’ is completely untrue.

Whether he is ultimately good enough or not, I’m still not sure. I wanted to see him given a chance, though. For reasons listed above, he still hasn’t.
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Ok I think we will have to agree to disagree, it’s all opinions of course but I just never felt Henderson did enough in that spell to prove he should be number one (even before he got COVID). Although, I felt that neither should be number one so I am not saying De Gea is miles better.

As you say, time will tell if he’s an elite keeper or not but I would say that time is not on his side anymore, at his age he needs to get game time as you eluded to. That isn’t going to happen here though so he should just be professional and put in a transfer request.
 
Bebestation said:
De gea is the Wan Bissaka of our team goalkeepers. A player who just slide tackles on the goal line for 90 mins. United won't win a major title again until he stops becoming our starting goalkeeper.

Our own defenders struggle because of him. There is a reason that Spain are better without him.

Whether Henderson is good enough or not is a different story, it's just that his quantity of ability is greater than De Gea's quantity, even if De Gea's quality of ability in one sector is a whole different class.

What choosing Henderson does is reminds us back to our club what a goalkeeper should be able to do when starting at United and its not just relying on reflexes/or slide tackles.

If then Henderson fails then fair enough - he wasn't good enough, but we are not going from an all rounded goalkeeper to a goalkeeper that can only ever do one thing and one thing only.
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A good if somewhat excessively simplistic conceit, two players who have stand out traits in their at their disposal, but both have noticeable hole in their games as well, however even in the modern game goalkeeper is still a specialist position and while Dave the save's passing and rushing may be inadequate, his shot stoping is among the best in the world.

PS. I would personally play Henderson, I just don't think DDG is as big a problem as players like Aaron wan Wissaka or 12 years a centre forward.
 
Beans said:
Usually the second string keeper starts in the FA Cup matches, it's a little strange he wouldn't start as its not the final.
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That's a sad commentary on how the world's oldest and most prestigious cup competition is viewed in modern times. 3rd round ties used to be one of the highlights of the footballing year, packing out grounds around the country and the reserve goalie wouldn't get a look-in unless the number one was injured. Every player wanted that winners' medal.
 
Oranges038 said:
The stats don't lie. He might have had a few stinkers, but overall the defence and the team were better for having him in goals.
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Both comparisons fail for obvious reasons. It's not about "lying stats", it's about drawing wrong conclusions from cherry picked stats.

You're comparing Henderson's run to last season's Dave (when he was really shit), not this season. You're arguing to replace current Dave not last season's.

Comparing Henderson's run to this season is silly because Hendo or any other GK would let in plenty having Maguire, Shaw and AWB in this type of form in front of him. I mean you see the world class saves Dave has to make this season (which he didn't have to make last season), combine that with the fact that Hendo's shot stopping is a joke compared to Dave's and the idea that he would somehow be an upgrade is laughable. Like I said, last season half the team wasn't as shit as they are now, and Dave was still in goal. You're pointing to the wrong variables as being the culprit when comparing this season and the last one (when Hendo had his run). The same faulty logic is used to blame Ronaldo for nearly all our problems.
 
JB7 said:
Fully aware of what positioning entails and it has literally never been a strong point of DDGs game. And as for one on ones I presume you're joking or watching DDG from about 5/6 years ago?
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He had great positioning vs Southampton earlier in the season.
 
If this is true. Henderson can feck right off. No more divas and players thinking they're bigger than the club. All can leave. I don't like our players as much any more.

Even Bruno. Ever since he started strutting off the pitch like he's Ronaldo, he fell off for me. He is NOT Ronaldo, who probably earns the right to do that. Much as I despise him doing that. Bruno needs to go over and applaud the fans the knut. Every bloody time.

All players who think they're bigger than the club and its fans... CAN FECK RIGHT OFF
 
Paxi said:
He had great positioning vs Southampton earlier in the season.
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As I said, earlier in the season his form was a completely different level to that of the past 2/3 months. I've not said his positioning is terrible or that he's always out of position, what I've said is that it's not a field I have ever considered something him to be exceptional in.
JPRouve said:
I don't know if I agree with that. De Gea's abilities as a shot stopper are in my opinion linked to his elite positioning while his shortcomings are based on his extremely poor ability to move around his box, one on ones included.
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Fair enough, I completely agree with you regarding his shortcomings and I don't dispute he positions himself well in certain instances - particularly as a starting position usually which is where we've seen some of the exceptional long range saves from. I tend to think in fluid instances his positioning is not of the level you'd expect which actually sometimes leads to saves being more difficult than they actually need to be and don't get me wrong, that is because his reflexes are out of this world and he obviously he has ended up making saves throughout his career that very few other goalkeepers would have made.
 
VanDeBank said:
Both comparisons fail for obvious reasons. It's not about "lying stats", it's about drawing wrong conclusions from cherry picked stats.

You're comparing Henderson's run to last season's Dave (when he was really shit), not this season. You're arguing to replace current Dave not last season's.

Comparing Henderson's run to this season is silly because Hendo or any other GK would let in plenty having Maguire, Shaw and AWB in this type of form in front of him. I mean you see the world class saves Dave has to make this season (which he didn't have to make last season), combine that with the fact that Hendo's shot stopping is a joke compared to Dave's and the idea that he would somehow be an upgrade is laughable. Like I said, last season half the team wasn't as shit as they are now, and Dave was still in goal. You're pointing to the wrong variables as being the culprit when comparing this season and the last one (when Hendo had his run). The same faulty logic is used to blame Ronaldo for nearly all our problems.
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Not just last season though, there was the 3 years before that where he was unquestionably shit, goals like Barcelona and Everton plus many many more. Last year was the first time anyone had just had enough of him and had the balls to just remove him from the team for an extended spell and the net result was a positive one.

The only thing he has improved on this season is making a few saves. Everything else is still way below par. He's just not good enough all round to suit how Utd should be playing. Making the odd good save is just not enough, he needs to do more. But he hasn't and at this stage I don't see how anyone can expect him to change his game entirely when he has already resisted a top coach trying to help him and insisted on getting his old friend in.
 
Oranges038 said:
Not just last season though, there was the 3 years before that where he was unquestionably shit, goals like Barcelona and Everton plus many many more. Last year was the first time anyone had just had enough of him and had the balls to just remove him from the team for an extended spell and the net result was a positive one.

The only thing he has improved on this season is making a few saves. Everything else is still way below par. He's just not good enough all round to suit how Utd should be playing. Making the odd good save is just not enough, he needs to do more. But he hasn't and at this stage I don't see how anyone can expect him to change his game entirely when he has already resisted a top coach trying to help him and insisted on getting his old friend in.
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Yeah, like I said. How shit he was in previous seasons is irrelevant. You're calling for Henderson to come in and replace him now, while Dave is in great form.

This is like pointing out Maguire was better than Lindelof last season so he should keep his starting XI place.

Unless you think Hendo massively underperformed during his run, he has shown he isn't better than this season's De Gea.

And his shot stopping has improved drastically. "Making a few more saves" is downplaying it.

Bla bla bla, another whining paragraph about Dave. We get it, i've said countless times he is a flawed goalkeeper. So you don't replace him with a worse one like Hendo, you get a better one. OR you focus on more pressing issues. Like the midfield and the 2 imposters in defence we bought for a combined 130 million.
 
Yay. What this squad/team needs is yet another player with a shitty attitude.

I often wish we could wipe the whole squad out and just start again. We need a big re-think about everything. I've never quite seen it with Henderson and have always viewed De Gea as the far superior goalkeeper. Even during his slump, I knew he'd come through it.
 
JB7 said:
Fair enough, I completely agree with you regarding his shortcomings and I don't dispute he positions himself well in certain instances - particularly as a starting position usually which is where we've seen some of the exceptional long range saves from. I tend to think in fluid instances his positioning is not of the level you'd expect which actually sometimes leads to saves being more difficult than they actually need to be and don't get me wrong, that is because his reflexes are out of this world and he obviously he has ended up making saves throughout his career that very few other goalkeepers would have made.
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And I agree with your view. While typing my post I felt that it wasn't a black and white situation, your point is clearly correct. Maybe we can summarize both of our takes with the idea that his positioning is generally excellent but his repositioning is sometimes dubious. I link it to his very poor ability to move around the box, of coure I'm only speculating and trying to link that shortcoming to the fact that he can't move efficiently beyond the six yards box whether his area is crowded or not, he is even awkward when we are in possession and he has to anticipate a pass or offer a "creative" passing option. Also I find it perplexing that all of these issues aren't linked to a lack of athleticism and that he fixed most of them under LVG with Hoek but all of it slowly disappeared when we brough his former Atletico coach.
 
What I don't get about this is Ragnick spoke about wanting to keep Henderson, which Sky says happened at 17:00.

That means Henderson must have stormed out between 17:00 and 18:00. Do they even train at that time?

And even if he did do it before, why would Ragnick bother to make any mention of it?

Doesn't add up to me.
 
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Most reserve GKs act like that, especially if they are young and ambitious.
 
He gets paid 100k a week, clearly isn't good enough and if he's stormed out of training, cut your loses and bin him off.

De Gea has flaws, he's also one of the best shot stoppers in the world. Henderson has no elite quality and theres not a chance we'd buy him if he wasn't here. Long term, we need an upgrade on both, so keep the better player and the one who wants to be here.

Why anyone would pander to a player with delusions of grandeur is beyond me.
 
VanDeBank said:
Yeah, like I said. How shit he was in previous seasons is irrelevant. You're calling for Henderson to come in and replace him now, while Dave is in great form.

This is like pointing out Maguire was better than Lindelof last season so he should keep his starting XI place.

Unless you think Hendo massively underperformed during his run, he has shown he isn't better than this season's De Gea.

And his shot stopping has improved drastically. "Making a few more saves" is downplaying it.

Bla bla bla, another whining paragraph about Dave. We get it, i've said countless times he is a flawed goalkeeper. So you don't replace him with a worse one like Hendo, you get a better one. OR you focus on more pressing issues. Like the midfield and the 2 imposters in defence we bought for a combined 130 million.
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Well during his run in the team he played 10 less games, 26vs36. He kept the same amount of clean sheets, 12. The team won 17 of those 26, compared to 18 out of 36. He also had a higher save % than DDG, he also faced less shots per game because the team overall conceded less chances.

Then there's this idea that DDG is having a great season.

DDG still concedes 1.5 goals per game, his save % is just over 70%, Utd are again one of the worst performing teams in terms of chances against, he's only kept 6 clean sheets and again the team just about has a 50% win rate with him in goal.

All that, while both have had the same players in front of them and with Henderson have a much better defensive record. Which ultimately leads to less goals conceded and more games being won.

Henderson is just a better fit and that is borne out from the stats and the results while he played.

He can understandably feel a bit miffed for not getting more game time. But that's no excuse for acting unprofessionally.
 
Oranges038 said:
All that, while both have had the same players in front of them and with Henderson have a much better defensive record. Which ultimately leads to less goals conceded and more games being won.
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Good job on writing another essay and completely ignoring my point.

I'll reiterate my point: Shaw and Maguire this season are not the same players they were last season. They're much worse and even McFred are to some degree.

So no you're drawing the wrong conclusion based off those team stats 'cause Shaw and Maguire's form are as much a variable as the goalie.

There's a reason why 3 different managers stuck to De Gea. Harry the fecking captain has been rightfully dropped by Lindelof now, so it's certainly possible to stake a claim. If VDB or Hendo or whoever can't convince 3 different managers they have no right to be upset and can feck off if they are. Hendo especially, considering he had an actual run of games to build form and showed everyone he is notably worse than Dave in his current form. (I'm hoping that by bolding it you'll notice last season comparisons lose relevancy)
 
Ali Dia said:
Just like all the other players at the club who’ve won nothing yet: we give them too much too soon and no real incentive to compete or improve while they are here.

at least he’s got some fire about him
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That's not fire, that's disrespectful to your fellow competitors.
 
Oranges038 said:
He did plenty. Every metric showed the team did better with him last year than with DDG. This season so far has been as much of a struggle as the first half of last season with DDG in goal. Very few clean sheets and conceding on average 1.5 goals per game.

It's not about replacing him with a worse keeper. It's replacing him with a keeper that suits how the team should be playing.

If Utd are going to play a high press, high line attacking game. RR is backing the wrong horse in DDG, nothing about his game suggests he's suited to it. He hasn't improved on any of his weaknesses, he even resisted the guy who tried to help become more rounded.

Henderson is already more rounded and more suited to that style of game. Based on that and his performances last season. That's why Henderson should be playing ahead of him.
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Hendo played just 12 games with United so I don't know how one can come up with definitive metrics on such small sample size. The reality is that both Ole and Rangnick ended up choosing DDG over him and that despite Ole and his pundit mates clear bias towards Dean Henderson. The bigger question should be why did we gave such ridiculous salary for a reserve goalkeeper? According to Marca (2020 article) Dean is at par with the likes of Lloris and Pickford and is paid more then Alisson Becker and Ederson. According to a quick google research Henderson is paid far more then Ramsdale is as well (4.9m vs 1.82m). Considering that we're talking about a keeper whose only positive stint is a good run with mighty Sheffield United then that beyond ridiculous

So if Hendo wants to leave then he should brace himself to a massive pay cut unless of course he is expecting that the club would subsidize most of his salary elsewhere
 
devilish said:
Hendo played just 12 games with United so I don't know how one can come up with definitive metrics on such small sample size. The reality is that both Ole and Rangnick ended up choosing DDG over him and that despite Ole and his pundit mates clear bias towards Dean Henderson. The bigger question should be why did we gave such ridiculous salary for a reserve goalkeeper? According to Marca (2020 article) Dean is at par with the likes of Lloris and Pickford and is paid more then Alisson Becker and Ederson. According to a quick google research Henderson is paid far more then Ramsdale is as well (4.9m vs 1.82m). Considering that we're talking about a keeper whose only positive stint is a good run with mighty Sheffield United then that beyond ridiculous

So if Hendo wants to leave then he should brace himself to a massive pay cut unless of course he is expecting that the club would subsidize most of his salary elsewhere
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That’s what all of them will expect.
 
VanDeBank said:
Good job on writing another essay and completely ignoring my point.

I'll reiterate my point: Shaw and Maguire this season are not the same players they were last season. They're much worse and even McFred are to some degree.

So no you're drawing the wrong conclusion based off those team stats 'cause Shaw and Maguire's form are as much a variable as the goalie.

There's a reason why 3 different managers stuck to De Gea. Harry the fecking captain has been rightfully dropped by Lindelof now, so it's certainly possible to stake a claim. If VDB or Hendo or whoever can't convince 3 different managers they have no right to be upset and can feck off if they are. Hendo especially, considering he had an actual run of games to build form and showed everyone he is notably worse than Dave in his current form. (I'm hoping that by bolding it you'll notice last season comparisons lose relevancy)
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Your answer is now that Henderson looked better because Shaw and Maguire were playing better. Even though DDG had a worse record with the same players.


devilish said:
Hendo played just 12 games with United so I don't know how one can come up with definitive metrics on such small sample size. The reality is that both Ole and Rangnick ended up choosing DDG over him and that despite Ole and his pundit mates clear bias towards Dean Henderson. The bigger question should be why did we gave such ridiculous salary for a reserve goalkeeper? According to Marca (2020 article) Dean is at par with the likes of Lloris and Pickford and is paid more then Alisson Becker and Ederson. According to a quick google research Henderson is paid far more then Ramsdale is as well (4.9m vs 1.82m). Considering that we're talking about a keeper whose only positive stint is a good run with mighty Sheffield United then that beyond ridiculous

So if Hendo wants to leave then he should brace himself to a massive pay cut unless of course he is expecting that the club would subsidize most of his salary elsewhere
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He played 26 last season and played better than DDG. If fact the whole team did better without DDG.
 
Oranges038 said:
Your answer is now that Henderson looked better because Shaw and Maguire were playing better. Even though DDG had a worse record with the same players.
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You got point 1, now point 2.

VanDeBank said:
The "stats" you keep bringing up to prove Hendo is better don't take into account:
  • We're a much worse team now than we were last season (with DDG in it as well)
  • DDG form has massively improved from last season
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devilish said:
That would be a stupid thing to do and is setting a very bad precedent for us
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We’ve been doing it quite a lot post Fergie by the looks of things. From Rooney on. Most of our players end up moving down and won’t accept lower wages on offer at smaller clubs when they could just sit their deal out with us and depreciate/move on a free. It’s our fault for gross mis or over valuation of our players and also for signing the wrong players in the first place
 
VanDeBank said:
You got point 1, now point 2.
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On Point 1 you are so far wrong it's not even funny. Those players were playing playing the same in front of him. Him being in goal almost halved the goals conceded per game. DDG comes back and it shoots straight back up to 1.5. Not all of that is to with Shaw and Maguire.

On Point 2, his shot stopping has improved and he's made some good saves. Everything else about him is as bang average as ever and has cost many goals.
 
Oranges038 said:
On Point 1 you are so far wrong it's not even funny. Those players were playing playing the same in front of him. Him being in goal almost halved the goals conceded per game. DDG comes back and it shoots straight back up to 1.5. Not all of that is to with Shaw and Maguire.
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The 2 points aren't mutually exclusive. last season Dave was crap. That context applies specifically to the goals conceded stat with Hendo vs Dave you keep bringing up.

Oranges038 said:
On Point 2, his shot stopping has improved and he's made some good saves. Everything else about him is as bang average as ever and has cost many goals.
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I don't disagree. And Henderson is slightly better at commanding his box (same garbage distribution as Dave), while being half the shot stopper. I know which one I prefer, as do the 3 managers that have been in charge this season.
 
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