Henderson reportedly stormed out of training after being told he wasn't playing against Villa

[sullydnl]

That Twitter thread is basically just further proof that statistics do not give the full picture of a goalkeeper. City’s second goal is one of the worst goals any team has conceded all season, first it’s a simple catch from the cross if he bothers to leave his line and second it’s a relatively simple save if he adjusts his body correctly, yet it’s not in the top 3 apparently.

Likewise, as a recently example (I know it was FA Cup) but theoretically had Watkins scored from Lindelofs bad touch on Monday night, that wouldn’t have gone down as a negative DDG statistic when in reality it was dreadful goalkeeping. Similar to Atalanta second goal in the away gfame

As for the Almiron save having a 34% save probability, that’s insane in itself. It was a shot that you’d expect most top level goalkeepers to make, nowhere near the corner, good height & distance and isn’t one I’d consider in DDGs top 10 this season in reality.

I don’t think anyone will say DDG isn’t having a much better season, certainly in the early stages of the season, but there have been enough negatives in his game over the last couple of months that Henderson had every right to be angry to be left out of the Villa Cup game in my view.

That's your opinion, which is absolutely fine and I ain't criticising it.

But it's an opinion that is at odds with the opinion of most people here who watched that game, the opinion of the journalists who covered the game and multiple statistical models, none of which suggested it was a save most goalkeepers would make and not one of De Gea's best this season. At which point if I were you I'd probably consider the possibility that my opinion might be wrong. Because saying it's not one of De Gea's top 10 saves this season would seem to be a fairly odd opinion.

 

[MadDogg]

Bit rich blaming DDG for Maguire's mistake.

DDG's reluctance to do much beside stand on his goal-line does regularly put other players in a more difficult position than they would be in with a more pro-active goalkeeper. Obviously that doesn't excuse the player actually making a bad mistake, but it's definitely to be expected that more mistakes will happen. I don't remember that particular Maguire mistake enough (I think I've willingly put it out of my mind) to say whether it was one of those situations though.

 

[Oranges038]

The stats just back up what everyone with eyeballs has seen. That DDG has massively improved his form.
Him vs Hendo was debatable last season, but right now De God is way above him.

I agree DGG has flaws, but replacing him with a worse GK because of that is insane.

DDG is far from perfect but he had bailed us (and still does) for years. Hendo has done nothing in training or on the pitch to threaten that. As I said in the initial post some one had done a huge disservice to him and us by filling his head with this first team nonsense.

He did plenty. Every metric showed the team did better with him last year than with DDG. This season so far has been as much of a struggle as the first half of last season with DDG in goal. Very few clean sheets and conceding on average 1.5 goals per game.

It's not about replacing him with a worse keeper. It's replacing him with a keeper that suits how the team should be playing.

If Utd are going to play a high press, high line attacking game. RR is backing the wrong horse in DDG, nothing about his game suggests he's suited to it. He hasn't improved on any of his weaknesses, he even resisted the guy who tried to help become more rounded.

Henderson is already more rounded and more suited to that style of game. Based on that and his performances last season. That's why Henderson should be playing ahead of him.

De Gea doesn't start for Spain for the same reason he lost his place at Man Utd.

He doesn't play because he doesn't suit how Enrique wants Spain to play. He was injured, Spain played better without him and Enrique didn't give him back his spot in the team because of that.

Same should have happened at Utd.

 

[JB7]

Bit rich blaming DDG for Maguire's mistake.

I literally said it was terrible defending. Of course Maguire fecked up, like Lindelof did on Monday, but the reality is his instinct was to look at the goalkeeper to pass backwards & when that wasn’t on for him he panicked badly & made a bad mistake. It is possible for more than one player to be at fault in a given instance believe it or not.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

For anyone that is saying Henderson is good. Why has no other decent club tried to buy him? and why can’t he get close to being no 1. England goalkeeper?

Surely you have to accept that at his age, although he is not old, he is now past the age of potential. If he was world class then he would have shown it already.

 

[Oranges038]

Some solid points and in reply, without trying to make this a ‘he said /she said’ race to the bottom as we have clearly different views… for me it’s far more than the Salah goal.

There were several goals he was directly at fault for which media seemed to brush over in a way they didn’t when DDG was having lows, despite the huge credit DDG had in the bank.

And yes, I agree about your DDG points to why he isn’t Spanish number 1. I’ve also read some great insight critiquing DDG about how his long ball distribution is superb but his short ball and quick change of passing angles is lacking, plus he is not proactive enough.

With that said, I’d argue with full conviction that he’s still better (and definitely again this season) than DH and the goals conceded stats need far more context such as opponents faced, distanced and number of shots faced, whether these were clear chances and crucially how many were the direct fault of the GK rather than a poor team display.

The main plus point I see people pitch for DH his apparent proactivity for crosses but I didn’t see this as such an advantage over DDG that it improved us. Minor advantage at best that overall didn’t justify being first choice when compared to all of DDG’s other strengths. Even more so with DDG now on better form.

My final point was on the eye test, DH seemed to shrink when playing for us and had several other errors directly his fault.

There were goals he could have done better on. But equally this season, I think you could find up to 10 this season that DDG should have done better on.

It's also his unwillingness to drop out and have himself as a passing option which opens up other options for the player on the ball. Creating angles and opening up space when playing out from the back. He doesn't do it because he's just not comfortable with the ball at his feet. Then as you say, his short and mid range passing is poor.

 

[Bebestation]

For anyone that is saying Henderson is good. Why has no other decent club tried to buy him? and why can’t he get close to being no 1. England goalkeeper?

Surely you have to accept that at his age, although he is not old, he is now past the age of potential. If he was world class then he would have shown it already.

Why would they buy him when they have hardly seen him play?

 

[cabbs1989]

He’s really not that good, isn’t worth the hassle, overrated

 

[JPRouve]

For anyone that is saying Henderson is good. Why has no other decent club tried to buy him? and why can’t he get close to being no 1. England goalkeeper?

Surely you have to accept that at his age, although he is not old, he is now past the age of potential. If he was world class then he would have shown it already.

I don't think anyone has suggested that he was world class. People said that he wasn't a backup goalkeeper but a starter for a midtable PL team which is far better than being a backup. Now if I remember correctly Henderson was in demand after his loan to Sheffield but we offered him the 5th or 6th largest contract for a goalkeeper which presumably means that we valued him as a starter.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

Let him go. He should have been No1, he's too good to be sitting in the bench. He wants to play football, fair enough.

In what world should he be number 1 ahead of De Gea?

He’s an average goal keep who doesn’t do anything particularly well- he’s mid table at best.

 

[Catt]

That is what i want from an ambitious lad. United through and through. Big mistake. But again, not surprised, we are where we are for a reason.

DDG is a better keeper and is rightfully number 1.

Henderson is unprofessional if this is true.

 

[Bebestation]

De gea is the Wan Bissaka of our team goalkeepers. A player who just slide tackles on the goal line for 90 mins. United won't win a major title again until he stops becoming our starting goalkeeper.

Our own defenders struggle because of him. There is a reason that Spain are better without him.

Whether Henderson is good enough or not is a different story, it's just that his quantity of ability is greater than De Gea's quantity, even if De Gea's quality of ability in one sector is a whole different class.

What choosing Henderson does is reminds us back to our club what a goalkeeper should be able to do when starting at United and its not just relying on reflexes/or slide tackles.

If then Henderson fails then fair enough - he wasn't good enough, but we are not going from an all rounded goalkeeper to a goalkeeper that can only ever do one thing and one thing only.

 

[RoyH1]

In what world should he be number 1 ahead of De Gea?

He’s an average goal keep who doesn’t do anything particularly well- he’s mid table at best.

Yes, but then at least he should have that. He'll never be good enough to displace Dave from the position.

 

[Kag]

He’s always been openly ambitious so I wouldn’t be surprised. He also, clearly, wants to play regular football at this club, which is admirable when you consider we have arseholes like Lingard happy to pick their arses on the bench in order to secure a good deal when it suits them.

He’d have been #1 this season if not for a bout of Covid and I can sympathise with his position.

De Gea isn’t good enough either. This will become clear again when we actually start to pick up under a new manager. Shot stopping has been noticeable this season, but the better we are the worse he becomes. He’s still a fanny who can’t catch a ball, come off his line, or save a penalty, too.

We’ll probably sell Henderson next summer, but bet your bottom dollar we’ll be screaming to replace De Gea within six months of the new season.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

Why would they buy him when they have hardly seen him play?

Surely that is all the more reason to buy him as he is unhappy at not playing and the club would be prepared to sell as he isn’t in our plans.

If a player is really good and available for transfer then there will be interest in him, he’s obviously just not that highly rated as there hasn’t been a sniff.

 

[JPRouve]

He’s always been openly ambitious so I wouldn’t be surprised. He also, clearly, wants to play regular football at this club, which is admirable when you consider we have arseholes like Lingard happy to pick their arses on the bench in order to secure a good deal when it suits them.

He’d have been #1 this season if not for a bout of Covid and I can sympathise with his position.

De Gea isn’t good enough either. This will become clear again when we actually start to pick up under a new manager. Shot stopping has been noticeable this season, but the better we are the worse he becomes.

We’ll probably sell Henderson next summer, but bet your bottom dollar we’ll be screaming to replace De Gea within six months of the new season.

Didn't Lingard want to leave during the past two years and was told that he was part of the plans?

 

[Kag]

For anyone that is saying Henderson is good. Why has no other decent club tried to buy him? and why can’t he get close to being no 1. England goalkeeper?

Surely you have to accept that at his age, although he is not old, he is now past the age of potential. If he was world class then he would have shown it already.

Henderson outperformed Ramsdale at Sheffield United. Ramsdale is now playing every week at Arsenal in light of being given the opportunity to play.

Henderson, if and when he leaves, will get a big move, and he’ll be one of the better goalkeepers in the league for a very long period of time. There’s little doubt of that.

 

[Kag]

Didn't Lingard want to leave during the past two years and was told that he was part of the plans?

That’s the spin. If he wanted the move to West Ham then he would have made it happen. And if he seriously thought he had a chance of regular football this season then he’s a bigger idiot than I thought.

 

[JPRouve]

That’s the spin. If he wanted the move to West Ham then he would have made it happen. And if he seriously thought he had a chance of regular football this season then he’s a bigger idiot than I thought.

How was he supposed to make it happen outside of publicly slam the manager and the club or be generally unprofessional? Because it's seemingly the only way this club entertain selling most players and it's not something that they all want to do.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

I’m glad we have found out that he doesn’t have the mentality to play for us now rather than at an important point in the season. The leaks haven’t caused much damage, mostly just made himself look like a prick. Hope it doesn’t deter any potential suitors as we certainly don’t want to be stuck with the cnut now.

 

[Kag]

How was he supposed to make it happen outside of publicly slam the manager and the club or be generally unprofessional? Because it's seemingly the only way this club entertain selling most players and it's not something that they all want to do.

He’s been generally unprofessional for years but that’s another story. The club would have sold Lingard in the summer provided an acceptable fee was received, I’m confident of that. Ole was happy to loan him out and had no interest in playing him either before or after his time at West Ham, so the onus was (and still is) on Lingard to make it happen. He seems to be content sitting on the sidelines.

 

[JPRouve]

He’s been generally unprofessional for years but that’s another story. The club would have sold Lingard in the summer provided an acceptable fee was received, I’m confident of that. Ole was happy to loan him out and had no interest in playing him either before or after his time at West Ham, so the onus was (and still is) on Lingard to make it happen. He seems to be content sitting on the sidelines.

How has he been unprofessional for years?

 

[Paxi]

Don't blame him. He's a very good goalkeeper rotting his career away on the bench. I'm assuming promises were made for him to get games. Hopefully a good club will come along. He makes the defence more assured then De Gea but we don't know if he can make the saves De Gea makes, as he never got a consistent run of games. But he has made some great saves himself. Guess we'll never know unless De Gea falls apart again.

Yeah we do — he can’t. I’ve seen him play more than enough to know his shot stopping, positioning is nowhere near as good as de gea’s.

 

[Revaulx]

Romero was pretty much the perfect number 2.

He was, but loads of people on here used to moan that he “obviously wasn't good enough” because his being content with being no.2 was a sign that he “lacked ambition”.

Can’t win with some people

 

[VanDeBank]

He did plenty. Every metric showed the team did better with him last year than with DDG. This season so far has been as much of a struggle as the first half of last season with DDG in goal. Very few clean sheets and conceding on average 1.5 goals per game.

It's not about replacing him with a worse keeper. It's replacing him with a keeper that suits how the team should be playing.

If Utd are going to play a high press, high line attacking game. RR is backing the wrong horse in DDG, nothing about his game suggests he's suited to it. He hasn't improved on any of his weaknesses, he even resisted the guy who tried to help become more rounded.

Henderson is already more rounded and more suited to that style of game. Based on that and his performances last season. That's why Henderson should be playing ahead of him.




He doesn't play because he doesn't suit how Enrique wants Spain to play. He was injured, Spain played better without him and Enrique didn't give him back his spot in the team because of that.

Same should have happened at Utd.

Sorry but can we stop pretending like Henderson was some monumental shift in our game last season? Some of the goals he let through were childish. I can recall a Liverpool goal and a free kick (in Italy?) that were absolute jokes. If you think we would be conceding less with Hendo in goal, watch back his awful shot stopping from last season.

The "stats" you keep bringing up to prove Hendo is better don't take into account:

• We're a much worse team now than we were last season (with DDG in it as well)
• DDG form has massively improved from last season

The fact that you're keep ignoring these 2 points and are unable to contextualize the stats you keep mentioning show how hard it is to make a case for Hendo and why you're a tiny tiny minority.

DDG didn't play for Spain because Unai Simon was much better last season. Hendo isn't. Like I said, the discussion is Hendo vs De Gea. Not Dave vs other top GKs.

 

[Kag]

How has he been unprofessional for years?

Posting videos of himself and other halfwits in the team on Snapchat, screaming at the top of his lungs as the team bus pulls into Upton Park sticks out. There’s also the time he posted videos of him and his mates humping pillows in a hotel bedroom. Ole publicly bollocked him thereafter for being a twat.

You seem to be very defensive of Lingard. I’m not sure why; he’s a waste of space and will be out by his ear in the near future.

This thread is about Henderson who, in fairness, has a lot more going for him.

 

[Paxi]

Why would they buy him when they have hardly seen him play?

He’s had plenty of appearances for Sheffield United an Man United.

 

[JB7]

Yeah we do — he can’t. I’ve seen him play more than enough to know his shot stopping, positioning is nowhere near as good as de gea’s.

His shot stopping may not be as good - not many goalkeepers are, but his positioning is comfortably as good. Positioning was a weak aspect of DDGs game even when he was a much better goalkeeper than he is now.

 

[JB7]

For anyone that is saying Henderson is good. Why has no other decent club tried to buy him?

This is a bizarre argument as he was pretty strongly linked to Chelsea and Tottenham before signing a big contract a couple of years back, which would have been quite a big deal really given none of the other big clubs in England ever really even attempt to take players off us.

 

[JPRouve]

Posting videos of himself and other halfwits in the team on Snapchat, screaming at the top of his lungs as the team bus pulls into Upton Park sticks out. There’s also the time he posted videos of him and his mates humping pillows in a hotel bedroom. Ole publicly bollocked him thereafter for being a twat.

You seem to be very defensive of Lingard. I’m not sure why; he’s a waste of space and will be out by his ear in the near future.

This thread is about Henderson who, in fairness, has a lot more going for him.

I'm not very defensive of Lingard. You posted things that I don't understand or aren't familiar with and asked you about it. The alternative being that you post something and I ignore you which would be a bit strange since you haven't given me any reason to ignore you.

Anyway, none of that is unprofessional. I'm not a fan of Lingard's personality but it doesn't mean that he is unprofessional, none of what you described is a breach of contract and it doesn't affect his ability to be a professional footballer either. It just makes him obnoxious.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Yeah we do — he can’t. I’ve seen him play more than enough to know his shot stopping, positioning is nowhere near as good as de gea’s.

He's barely played this season. And to be fair, he seemed way more confident coming out for the ball rather then hiding. He needs to be given at least 5 games in a row to really judge him. But that might now happen at all this season.

 

[Oranges038]

Sorry but can we stop pretending like Henderson was some monumental shift in our game last season? Some of the goals he let through were childish. I can recall a Liverpool goal and a free kick (in Italy?) that were absolute jokes. If you think we would be conceding less with Hendo in goal, watch back his awful shot stopping from last season.

The "stats" you keep bringing up to prove Hendo is better don't take into account:

• We're a much worse team now than we were last season (with DDG in it as well)
• DDG form has massively improved from last season

The fact that you're keep ignoring these 2 points and are unable to contextualize the stats you keep mentioning show how hard it is to make a case for Hendo and why you're a tiny tiny minority.

DDG didn't play for Spain because Unai Simon was much better last season. Hendo isn't. Like I said, the discussion is Hendo vs De Gea. Not Dave vs other top GKs.

Simon is far from a top keeper by the way.

What about some of goals DDG has let in this season? Arsenal was the worst goal I have ever seen a PL keeper let in.

Stats and the eye test don't lie. De Gea was throwing them in for 3 years, he should have been binned at the start of last season. He doesn't have the skillset required to be a keeper for a top club that is expected to dominate and win matches. He has a retreat mentality that sucks the whole team too deep and that creates problems, such as those described by Schmeichel in the video I posted.

Also, what those stats do prove is that having a keeper who is good at more than 1 thing, is better for the team overall than having a keeper who is really excellent at only one thing.

Just like with AWB, having a right back who is good at more than just slide tackles is better for the team. Just like with Pogba, having a midfielder who is better at more than just playing the odd good pass is better for the team.

The reason he doesn't play for Spain is because Simon is better suited to how they want to play. He is better at everything that De Gea just refuses to do. He allows them to play higher, he's better at passing, showing for the ball, sweeping, claiming high balls etc. All the stuff that is now expected from a keeper at every level of the game.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

Henderson outperformed Ramsdale at Sheffield United. Ramsdale is now playing every week at Arsenal in light of being given the opportunity to play.

Henderson, if and when he leaves, will get a big move, and he’ll be one of the better goalkeepers in the league for a very long period of time. There’s little doubt of that.

Arsenal? Ah right I think that’s where the difference of opinion between us comes. I am talking about Henderson is not good enough for Man Utd, he might be good enough for Arsenal. I am not saying he’s not a great keeper. I’m just saying he’s not an elite keeper which traditionally Man Utd have always had.

BTW Henderson did have the opportunity to play and didn’t take it. He couldn’t even replace ageing De Gea.

This is a bizarre argument as he was pretty strongly linked to Chelsea and Tottenham before signing a big contract a couple of years back, which would have been quite a big deal really given none of the other big clubs in England ever really even attempt to take players off us.

There is a difference between being linked and a club actually committing finances to try and buy someone. If he was good enough then clubs would have put up the money. Even now nobody is trying to get him and the transfer window is open. I do agree that big clubs getting our players is rare but it’s not when a player is unhappy (Di Maria as an example). Anyway, I am expecting a smaller PL club to take him as that is his level until proven otherwise.

 

[POF]

I don't know what went on in this situation but the right move for the club would have been to sell De Gea and keep Henderson as #1.

He's an academy product, is still young for a keeper and one of the best talents in the league. He would be #1 now if not for his catching COVID.

Unfortunately, the club gave De Gea such a ridiculous contract, they have no chance to sell him. So, now they are probably forced to sell the keeper who has 10 years at a high level ahead of him and keep the one who has looked past his best for 2-3 seasons.

If this happened, it's not professional from Henderson but you have to wonder what is going on at the club. It's just one story after another of absolute turmoil.

 

[Kag]

I'm not very defensive of Lingard. You posted things that I don't understand or aren't familiar with and asked you about it. The alternative being that you post something and I ignore you which would be a bit strange since you haven't given me any reason to ignore you.

Anyway, none of that is unprofessional. I'm not a fan of Lingard's personality but it doesn't mean that he is unprofessional, none of what you described is a breach of contract and it doesn't affect his ability to be a professional footballer either. It just makes him obnoxious.

So why did Ole call him out on it? Why was he roundly criticised by football pundits after posting the video on the team bus?

You don’t need to breach a contract to act unprofessionally. Being a prize berk can be enough.

 

[Kag]

Arsenal? Ah right I think that’s where the difference of opinion between us comes. I am talking about Henderson is not good enough for Man Utd, he might be good enough for Arsenal. I am not saying he’s not a great keeper. I’m just saying he’s not an elite keeper which traditionally Man Utd have always had.

BTW Henderson did have the opportunity to play and didn’t take it. He couldn’t even replace ageing De Gea.



There is a difference between being linked and a club actually committing finances to try and buy someone. If he was good enough then clubs would have put up the money. Even now nobody is trying to get him and the transfer window is open. I do agree that big clubs getting our players is rare but it’s not when a player is unhappy (Di Maria as an example). Anyway, I am expecting a smaller PL club to take him as that is his level until proven otherwise.

He did. He started reguarly in the league from March onwards and performed well. He was, by many accounts, due to start the season as Ole’s #1 until he contracted a bad bout of Covid and was unable to participate in pre season. De Gea started the season well, Ole lost his job, and here we are. Don’t bother rewriting the narrative. Henderson was even tipped to push Pickford for his place during the Euros up until he had to withdraw due to injury, so the idea that he ‘didn’t take his opportunity’ is completely untrue.

Whether he is ultimately good enough or not, I’m still not sure. I wanted to see him given a chance, though. For reasons listed above, he still hasn’t.

 

[JPRouve]

So why did Ole call him out on it? Why was he roundly criticised by football pundits after posting the video on the team bus?

You don’t need to breach a contract to act unprofessionally. Being a prize berk can be enough.

Football pundits criticize certain people for haircuts and others for smiling, their opinions are worth nothing on that topic. No being a prize berk doesn't necessarily make you unprofessional, it can make you unlikeable but being likeable isn't a requirement for a footballer and Ole can give life advices to someone, he can disagree with certain personal choices but it has little to do with professionalism.
And again none of the things you mentioned prevent the player from doing his job as his contract expect it and it is extremely problematic when people start using that term loosely and equate it to anything they don't like about someone. Being unprofessional is definitely linked to your ability to do your job and in this case there isn't even an argument in terms of public image, Lingard hasn't acted in a way that would damage United's image and there is no argument to claim that he has been unprofessional for years.

 

[VanDeBank]

Simon is far from a top keeper by the way.

What about some of goals DDG has let in this season? Arsenal was the worst goal I have ever seen a PL keeper let in.

Stats and the eye test don't lie. De Gea was throwing them in for 3 years, he should have been binned at the start of last season. He doesn't have the skillset required to be a keeper for a top club that is expected to dominate and win matches. He has a retreat mentality that sucks the whole team too deep and that creates problems, such as those described by Schmeichel in the video I posted.

Also, what those stats do prove is that having a keeper who is good at more than 1 thing, is better for the team overall than having a keeper who is really excellent at only one thing.

Just like with AWB, having a right back who is good at more than just slide tackles is better for the team. Just like with Pogba, having a midfielder who is better at more than just playing the odd good pass is better for the team.

The reason he doesn't play for Spain is because Simon is better suited to how they want to play. He is better at everything that De Gea just refuses to do. He allows them to play higher, he's better at passing, showing for the ball, sweeping, claiming high balls etc. All the stuff that is now expected from a keeper at every level of the game.

You're arguing why you don't rate DDG. I don't disagree, if you want him replaced for Onana, I could get behind that.

Dave plays nearly every game and this season has been making world class saves nearly every game.
Hendo's stinkers were literally every other game during his run last season. DDG's stinkers save-wise are an anomaly.

It's not like the VDB scenario where he never plays. Hendo got a run of games and showed he was comparable to last season's DDG, which just isn't good enough. You're still highly critical of Dave when his shot stopping form is world class right now, so what does that say about Henderson?

Unai Simon is a decent GK btw and much better than Henderson.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Sell while he can solid value on the market. He is not good enough for no1 anyway

 

[Garethw]

Not good enough to be a CL clubs number one but at the same time far too good to be sitting on the bench for 95% of the season.

Sell the lad for £25 million and use it to invest on first 11 players.