This is like asking "Do we need Ronaldo when we have Rooney?".
Greenwood vs Haaland
- Thread starter bond19821982
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We need to buy haaland in the first place so no other team in England can use him.
Then if he or greenwood are benched it's a lesser worry.
Anyway that desicion is for the next summer.
Then if he or greenwood are benched it's a lesser worry.
Anyway that desicion is for the next summer.
I don't know what're you talking about palNo but it doesn’t take us out of the running but it lessens the chances.
We made the same arguments about Rashford and Martial. In fact I would say Rashford was a far better striker when he broke into the team then he is now with better striker instincts and positioning in that role then he does now. And that’s simply because he has played in a diffent position 4 years.
It’s quite straight forward if you do one job for a long period you are going to get better at that role and develop instincts for the role. If you are then moved into another position you won’t have those natural insticts and will have to spend time learning them. This is the same in football or any line of work. And at elite sport level if you have been training at 1 position for a longer period your more likely to be good at it that’s just logic.
but your right striker is one of the hardest positions I’ve to play. But look around world football how many decent strikers are there under the age of 30 now? Very few! (There arnt that many above right now either) It’s a position that clubs worldwide are really struggling to produce players in, And one of the key reasons is becuase young players arn’t given the opportunity to play the role, most get stuck out in the wing for key years of there development and don’t really develop as strikers.
if you want some one to get good at somthing you have to give them the opportunity to do it, fail at it and learn from it. If we want Greenwood to have best chance of becoming a top striker you play him in the role. Because if we don’t get Haaland to say the striking options to replace Cavani are thin on the ground would be putting it mildly. So we should be doing everything possible to develop Greenwood in that position, and the number 1 thing is playing him in the role!
I would counter that by saying Rashford had a 10-game streak as an 18-year-old where he looked very good playing up front, because a) he was an unknown quantity, b) there was literally zero pressure on him at the time given how our season was going, and c) ten games is really nothing to judge by, as players like Michu, Zaki and Gabbiadini will tell you.
And then it was quickly discovered that he had very few of the traits you need to play center forward at a top-six team (again, not an indictment on the player - barely any teenagers do), whereas he's had his two best seasons at the club since he's been shifted (more or less permanently) into that wide role. Can he develop the ability to play as a striker? Sure, we saw Martial do it the season before last, and we might be seeing Greenwood do it now, going by recent months. Is it inherently to Rashford's benefit if he starts playing in the center? I don't see why.
And similar to my previous point, I would counter this by saying it's not so much young players being "stuck" on the wing as a general shift towards having the chief goalscoring threats play out wide at a lot of top teams. It's worked for a lot of them, and it's worked for Greenwood so far. So I genuinely don't see how he's been hindered by not being played as a center forward.
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Greenwood should play as a CF this season.He will bang 20+ PL goals without a problem.
Hi, I joined 18 years ago with my original username, so maybe I am qualified to say, I did see it coming. Otherwise I’d have looked very stupid with my user name, just imagine someone calling themselves RedBebe or RedLingard….
The poll is shite.
Haaland could play for us and Greenwood’s development wouldn’t be hindered at all. He’s a forward, and he’ll bang them in from all across the front three. No issue there.
Haaland could play for us and Greenwood’s development wouldn’t be hindered at all. He’s a forward, and he’ll bang them in from all across the front three. No issue there.
Haalands goals on the opening day of the bundesliga season were just terrific.He really is a generational talent...
Greenwood is going to be a class footballer, probably the closet thing England have to an elegant Van Persie-esque striker, but we need to be realistic now. Haaland is simply on another level entirely.
In 1999 Utd had 4 fantastic strikers, to seriously challenge on all fronts again, Utd despite Greenwoods potential will need more, especially when Cavani leaves.
In Haaland, you have the perfect Cavani replacement, and a front 3 of Greenwood, Sancho and Haaland, would be nothing short of sensational.
In Haaland, you have the perfect Cavani replacement, and a front 3 of Greenwood, Sancho and Haaland, would be nothing short of sensational.
Yeah! People tend to remember what they want to remember. It was actually just 2 games, a 2-game streak.
Rashford started his senior career here with a bang and 4 goals and 1 assist playing CF in his first 2 games. After that: 4 goals and 0 assists in his next 1110 minutes as a CF that first season. 278 minutes/G+A. Decent for an 18 year old, but not what you want from a regular starter.
First season total as a CF: 142 minutes/G+A
He played 18 matches in his 2nd season as a CF and scored 6 and assisted 2 in 1295 minutes (more of the same). 162 minutes/G+A
He played 16 matches in his 3rd season as a CF and scored 5 and assisted 2 in 1005 minutes (1 goal against CSKA Moscow in the CL and 1 goal against Watford in the PL, while the rest came against Yeovil, Burton and Swansea) 144 minutes/G+A
In the 18/19 season he played most of his games as a CF, with 29 games (2203 minutes) up top resulting in 10 goals and 8 assists. 122 minutes/G+A. Decent numbers, but a long way from top class.
Fewer chances as CF the last 2 seasons, but the numbers are just not good enough for him to be leading the line. He's delivered similar numbers playing CF his entire senior career, and has shown that he's best when played out wide (surprisingly enough his contributionrate is not that much worse when he plays on the right).
Mason has shown that he is actually more efficient when playing out right than playing CF:
CF: 8 goals and 3 assists in 1954 minutes - 244 minutes/G and 178 minutes/G+A. Not even close to good enough to be a starter for us as a CF.
RW: 20 goals and 7 assists in 3801 minutes - 190 minutes/G and 140 minutes/G+A. More acceptable playing out wide.
Haaland has delivered a goal or assist every 64 minutes for Dortmund as a CF so far. He is on a different planet compared to pretty much anyone out there. To put what Haaland is doing at Dortmund in perspective: Lewy delivered a goal or assist every 99 minutes for Dortmund and every 77 minutes so far for Bayern. Messi delivered a goal or assist every 65 minutes for Barca and Cristiano every 65 minutes for Real Madrid.
Mason shouldn't fight with Haaland for minutes up top if we land his signature, he should fight to get minutes out wide or maybe as a second striker because thats where he plays his best. Mason and Rashford are great talents, but looks average next to Haaland.
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A front three of Greenwood, Sancho and Haaland is winning the league, thats a devastating trio!
Yup, thanks for the detail there. I remembered Rashford ended up with 5 league goals in 11 games under Van Gaal, which is excellent for a teenager but not really a large enough sample to say he was a better striker then than he is now.
Greenwood's looked most dangerous so far in his career when he's picked up the ball in his favored zones, facing the defence and using his two-footedness and incredible striking ability to get the jump on them. Much easier to do that when his starting position is out wide.
Solskjaer could talk Haaland in if he wanted to, but there are no talks it seems...so the budget can't be there...as Haaland is a no brainer, and can only strenghten the team.
Of course its a small sample size, but you compare Rashfords decision making in front of goal and positioning compared to when he has played there on occaion over the past couple of years and there is no question there has been a regression there. Which would 100% make sense if you don't do somthing reguarly of course you are going to get worse at it.
Now there is no benfit to Rashford learning to play up front again, he has clearly lost the positioning sense for position as he has spent most of the last 5 years turning himself into a winger. Though you could argue he may not have a place in the first team outwide when he returns from injury so maybe dedicating himself to relearning to be a striker maybe in his intrests. Though personaly I think that ship may have sailed.
Look at Martial i think he has struggled to play as a centre foward and a lot of the reaason is he has hardly played there before last season since he joined United, he currently lacks alot of the natural positioning sense you need in the position and the clinicalness infront of goal. bUt after years as winger you can't suddenly then expect him to be a centre forward. Like you can't expect a teenager to suddenly be great centreforward. But when ever you transition a player into that position there are likley to be hiccups.
You say barely any teenagers have the traits to play centre forward, I say the fact that teenagers and players in there young early 20's arnt getting given the opportunity to play up front is why we have such a massive shortage of strikers in world football. On the other hand wide attackers are a dime a dozen.
Greenwood would be hindered as he is spending his time learning to be a wide attacker, like Rashford did previously, needing to spend time devloping his game to suit that position. When your spend most of you youth playing a diffrent role that slows your progression and can reguarly lead to yo being a decent all rounder but not great in any one psotion. You also add to that like I said wide attackers are a dime a dozen, If I was Greenwood would I want to spend a few years dedicating myself to playing a position that position that is over saturated with player. Look at it from a united point of view, or England for that matter, Greenwood next season as a wide player is he in the first team? I would say it will be touch and go with the amount of depth we have in wide area's. it will certinly be a struggle and Greenwood will certiinly have work intesvly hard to improve himself as a wide player. Now as centre forward, even unless United sign Haaland, right now on paper even with a normal amount of progression for a player his age Greenwood looks like he could be our starting number 9 next season. Or look at England, they have more wide attackers than they can fit into several teams, upfront though you basicaly have Kane as a top level striker. I would say Greenwoods chances of making next years world cup squad as a wide player are fairly limited, but he establishes himself as a centre forward and hes shoe in. So If i was Greenwood i would be thinking the world is my oyster as a striker, yes its a harder psoition, but the rewards are much greater.
And take away Greenwood, long term united are hindered, at the end of this season Cavani will likley leave, who plays up front next season? Are options are Greenwood, Martial and Rashford. Now maybe we can sign some one, but like i said in my previous post the options of top strikers and minimal at best. We also have a glut of wide attackers and if Greenwood didnt devlop in that position it would be sad but would hardly be the end of the world. Upfront though we have very few options, Martial and Greenwood have spent years playing on the wide and don't look convincing up front (personaly I think that has a lot to do with fact they havn't played centraly much in there late teens early 20's) . Greenwood however is one of the best young finishers in the game, hasn't spent years tuning his brain to play out wide, surely as club we want to do everything we can do to support his progression as a centre forward, as if he doesnt devlop into one im yet to hear anyone give a decent alteternttive to Haaland, in fact if i remeber correctly there was a thread on it a few months ago and the conculsion was "wow there really arn't many decent strikers out there". I mean Roma just paid nearly 40 million for Tammy Abraham, which shows you you the bonkers money teams will pay for even a medicore striker as there as so few of them. So as club we should be rolling over backwards to get do everything possible to devleop Greewnwood as central striker. Whats gonna devlop Greenwood better as a striker? Playing reguarly upront or playing reguarly out wide? In other words what going to make him better at somthing? do the thing reguarly or do somthing diffrent?
Again, why is it slowing his progression?
He's played 60 Premier League games for one of the top clubs in the league before turning 20. That's incredible progression: he's learning and developing his game by playing at the very highest level, getting more (and better) exposure than 95% of his peers. And let's not pretend he's being forced to play as some sort of touchline-hugging winger either, he always pops up around the box and does very little defensive work*.
He wouldn't have played nearly as many games as he has if the club wanted to insist, for some reason, that he's a striker and only a striker. Because he's not yet good enough to start in that role for a club aiming to win the league.
This is the same kind of argument people like Jamie Redknapp used to make about Rashford's growth somehow being stunted when he was playing 50+ games a season as a teenager under Mourinho. All because they thought the club somehow owed it to him to play him up front ahead of better players like Zlatan and Lukaku.
I guess the fundamental thing we disagree on is that a young player absolutely needs to play as a central striker to have any chance of succeeding in the position later in their career. I've already rattled off enough names (pretty much all the good ones in recent years, really) a few posts above to back my assertion that this isn't the case, especially with how fluid most attacks are in top-level football nowadays.
*The same goes for Rashford by the way, he's very much still in the team to score goals before anything else, despite playing wide. And the fact that he's just completed back-to-back 20-goal seasons makes me wonder how you can possibly say there's "no question" his decision-making in front of goal is worse now than it was in 2016.
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2 games in competitive season 5 goals 3 assists. Greenwood will be a WC player but Haaland is a generational talent
No I think a player has more chance of been good at something if the do it reguarly from a young age, rather then hoping they can pick up later.
Is he isn't good enough to pay that role for a club aiming to win the league, but neither do I think he is worse than Martial in the role, and Cavani isnt going to be able to play every game. So 100% makes the most sense to use Greenwood as the striker who swaps in and out with Cavani.
As for it all being about being progression, well like I say we will need a striker next season, there arn't really any decent once out there, beyond Haaland, we have a player who has the potentiol to fufill that need, so we want to help do our best to make sure he devlops in that position as quickly as possible, which means giving him regular game time in the position, becuase if Greenwood goes down the Martial and Rashford route of not really devloping as striker, we are basically Haaland or bust next summer which is not a clever policy.
If it was that straight forward he would've "talked him in" a couple of years ago. Because Solskjær coached Haaland age 16-18, and obviously knows Team Haaland better than most people.
But Team Haaland had a plan on their own, and where that plan leads next is so far a mystery
This. I think you show a lack of ambition if you have space for a striker and don't try for him. Would love him here but can see him going to Bayern now Lewandowski wants another challenge.
That's not the same as saying it hinders a player's development to play a different position when they're breaking into the team. Which was my point all along.
Is he a better option than Martial as a striker right now? I think so, since he just had comfortably his best center-forward performance to date last weekend. And that backs my point up if anything.
Was he a better center-forward option than Martial in 19/20 when he broke through, or even for much of last season (Greenwood had one league goal going into April)? No, he wasn't. Which shows he's developed his game despite playing "out of position" all this time.
Of course it slows a players progression, if you spent you majority of your game time and playing 1 role you are of course going to devlop slower in a diffrent psoition, again thats just logic. You are going to get better quicker at the thing you practice the most.
Was he a better centre forward when he broke in then Martial, really hard to say, he rarely played there for a full 90 mins. but yes you would expect a young player to get better and Greenwood has got better. Rashford and Martial are all round better players than when they first started. Ar they better strikers than when they broke/bought? that open for debate.
Ole can talk as much as he likes …it’ll make little difference to Haaland.
It's not hard to say at all, because there's a reason he rarely played there: it was clear to the manager and coaches that he was nowhere near ready for the role (this is also why we signed a journeyman in January to give Martial a rest, instead of throwing Greenwood up front).
People often forget the coaches see these guys play five days a week outside of game days, all season long. Solskjaer didn't randomly look at his squad options on the first day of 2019/20 and say "well, I've never seen this kid play up front so I have no idea how good he is there, might as well just give Martial the season!" He made an informed decision.
There's nothing logical at all about saying Greenwood's development has been slowed down by the massive exposure he's received playing for a top side as a teenager,.
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Theres talk that he's agreed a pre-contract to go Real Madrid next season. At first it seemed pretty speculative to me but a few sources including the Real Twitter ITK's and Raphael Honigstein have run with it so who knows.
Andy Cole said after the leeds game that Fletch has said Mason doesn’t see himself as a 9. That answers this question.
Yeah been ages since we signed Sancho
I've said somewhere else that I don't mind having both then keep the better one. I love Mason but I love United more. If one is surplus then we can sell him. Mason with a buy back clause or Haaland for +150m. We simply won't lose anything but only strengthen our squad.
Imo Mason is turning into the player we all thought he'd be. This season will be the turning point for his career, either way. Would be very interesting.
Imo Mason is turning into the player we all thought he'd be. This season will be the turning point for his career, either way. Would be very interesting.
Yes ridiculous player at 18 years of age. Capable of some of the best individual performances I’d seen from any United player at that age. If he’d have been English he would not have been undervalued as he was at that age. His performances in the FA cup semi final and final were ridiculous, in fact he carried us towards the end of his first season when we really struggled as a team. Forgetting inconsistency as all players are especially at that age, Ronaldo had the highest top level of any player I’ve ever seen at United….even at 18.
So no Rashford or Pogba? I’m amazed how hype overtakes proven performances in a league.
It's definitely possible and I wouldn't be surprised if Real are one of the clubs he'd be interested in joining but I don't think Spanish league football is in a good place right now. So I'm inclined to think he will go elsewhere.
As for twitter ITK's - unless it's Romano I don't believe a word
I feel that the positioning hindering players' development is player dependent. In the end it didn't hinder Van Persie that much, and perhaps playing in the other positions aided his development as an overall player. With players like Theo Walcott and even Ryan Babel, who perhaps have more specific skillsets, I thought playing out wide really ruined an opportunity at very useful strikers. But they were quick, so they had to play out wide. However, their dribbling was very basic to some extent, so I always thought developing that into efficient moves up front could've turned them into greater (4-4-2) strikers than they ever were a winger. Could be wrong of course, but the way Wenger and Benitez played them, I always thought it was a shame and a lost opportunity.
However, although when younger I thought it was weird to play Van Persie RW instead of SS/10 like Bergkamp, it didn't seem to hinder him with his type of skillset and I feel the same way about Greenwood. He moves around the frontline anyway and during a lot of attacks he's more of a shadow striker than even a Robben type winger. Perhaps it could even help him to switch into more positions, simply to get used to dealing with more types of defending. I can't see into the future, but I think Greenwood is gonna be fine, especially since he gets to play both positions, either way.
However, although when younger I thought it was weird to play Van Persie RW instead of SS/10 like Bergkamp, it didn't seem to hinder him with his type of skillset and I feel the same way about Greenwood. He moves around the frontline anyway and during a lot of attacks he's more of a shadow striker than even a Robben type winger. Perhaps it could even help him to switch into more positions, simply to get used to dealing with more types of defending. I can't see into the future, but I think Greenwood is gonna be fine, especially since he gets to play both positions, either way.
Yes there is no hype with either Rashford or Pogba is there? of course Pogba starts, Rashford too, but not nailed on as its a squad game!
W
Rashford is a Proven Premier League player, please feel free to name a time during Ole’s tenure when he’s not started when fit? Pogba has been in and out of the team and moved about a lot, but has proven himself on the world stage on numerous occasions. Care to tell me how either are more hyped than Haaland and Sancho? Both still have a lot to prove and need to play at better clubs before they’re proven to be worth the hype.
Van Persie had Bergkamp and Henry to deal with, but people also need to have a look at RVP when he was that age.
He was very lean, much like Greenwood, in a very physical league. It took time for him to develop physically.
Mason is 20 ffs. Comparisons to Haaland are weird because Haaland is a freak of nature physically.
Mason is still coming along and is starting to grow into a stronger frame and physique, but it is still going to take time, probably another year or two.
Once he does, I imagine he'll want that CF role, and I think he'll be perfectly suited to it.
Why do United fans do this? We’re not allowed great depth but City, Chelsea, PSG etc are.
We’re allowed to have more than 11 good players.
We’re allowed to have more than 11 good players.
I know we already have Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford. But I wouldn't say no to Haaland and Mbappe if they become available to us.
With Cavani's departure, we'll definitely need another striker. Whether is Haaland, Mbappe, Kane, Lautaro or Lewa, they are all better than Greenwood right now. That could change in a few years when Mason reach world class level.
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