Formation change next season (4-3-3)

[Siezard]

I have not seen anyone put Bruno as a false 9.

If Bruno can't do defensive work as a DM or CM, then he has to be moved to the sides or upfront with this tactic of 433. So I foresee that Ole will try Bruno as the false 9. If it fails, then Ole may push Bruno to Midfield (right) behind Sancho. Interesting times.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Our attack and defence look sorted for this season, but the midfield sticks out like a sore thumb.

You have Bruno who will always take risks and be higher up the pitch, and two places left to screen the defence, press for the ball, rotate it, keep it under pressure and look for passes up the field. The problem is no pair of midfielders we have provides even a semi-balanced combination of all those attributes.

If you include Pogba you lose ball-retention, shape, defensive presence, and are left vulnerable to counters. A prime Matic may have been a great partner, but neither McT or Fred are capable of that.
If you leave him out, you lose ability to rotate, quick transition, carry the ball up the pitch, and probe low blocks. It is evident that we have very little quality on the ball when McFred starts.

If we could keep Pogba and somehow sign Rice or Camavinga, we would fix the midfield, too.

 

[seegoblu]

Casemiro would be the ideal fit at the base of a 3 man midfield. I wonder if £50m tempts Madrid to sell.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

it will take its time. but it will happen. By mid season we will be playing 4-3-3-. With our new starting cb pair, the coaching staff will realizw they don't need double protection from midfield.

 

[ChaddyP]

Famously popular on here is to just change a defender to a new position .

fun and jokes aside Fergie used to do this a lot. With Oshea and Jones. I can understand why people in here think it can be done. Fergie put a career winger in a midfield 2 for a CL final against the greatest club side i can remember. When you see that, putting a ball playing CB in Defensive midfield even if he never did it before isn't as far fetched as one may think. it will also never happen because Ole is not SAF

 

[Pavl3n]

it will take its time. but it will happen. By mid season we will be playing 4-3-3-. With our new starting cb pair, the coaching staff will realizw they don't need double protection from midfield.

That's exactly my thought. Real question is, what is the key to switching from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3? Does the coaching staff see Fred's qualities as enough to let him sit in front of the back four, now that Varane will be part of it? Or do we still need that CDM specialist in order to unleash two attacking #8s in a 4-3-3?

I think a 4-3-3 with Donny and Bruno as the #8s will be a very dangerous opposition to deal with. Bruno likes to find free space and Donny likes to make runs upfront and have intricate one twos in tight areas. With Donny occupying nearly the same spaces as a second striker, that would open the spaces Bruno likes to find, give him enough time to measure his options and pick the right pass. That would leave us playing essentially with a front 5 instead of a front 4, which was the case when we had a double pivot.

And then again, do we desperately need a CDM to switch to 4-3-3 or just the upgrade on Lindelof is enough for it?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

That's exactly my thought. Real question is, what is the key to switching from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3? Does the coaching staff see Fred's qualities as enough to let him sit in front of the back four, now that Varane will be part of it? Or do we still need that CDM specialist in order to unleash two attacking #8s in a 4-3-3?

I think a 4-3-3 with Donny and Bruno as the #8s will be a very dangerous opposition to deal with. Bruno likes to find free space and Donny likes to make runs upfront and have intricate one twos in tight areas. With Donny occupying nearly the same spaces as a second striker, that would open the spaces Bruno likes to find, give him enough time to measure his options and pick the right pass. That would leave us playing essentially with a front 5 instead of a front 4, which was the case when we had a double pivot.

And then again, do we desperately need a CDM to switch to 4-3-3 or just the upgrade on Lindelof is enough for it?

IMHO the upgrade to Lindeloff is enough. People really underrate Mctominay and Fred for no good reason beyond then having to protect an extremely flawed center half pair.

Infact I personal feel the ONLY reason to add another Dm is for completion. Matic is past it and with the competitions we have we will need 3 DMS to carry us through. It would be nice to have a 3rd player who offers something different to them 2. The way DVB is different to Bruno and Pogba yet he is an AM creator.

 

[Irwin99]

Ole's always pretty adaptable so I can see many systems being used through out the season.

Maybe it depends on how the season starts but I can see us reverting to the defensive 4-2-3-1 or a 3-5-2 in some of the big games in October/November. To me that's going to be the interesting period where I look and see how we approach games; we have Leicester, Liverpool, Spurs, City, Chelsea and Arsenal and obviously some champions league games around then too.

 

[Pavl3n]

IMHO the upgrade to Lindeloff is enough. People really underrate Mctominay and Fred for no good reason beyond then having to protect an extremely forward center half pair.

Infact I personal feel the ONLY reason to add another Dm is for completion. Matic is past it and with the competitions we have we will need 3 DMS to carry us through. It would be nice to have a 3rd player who offers something different to them 2. The way DVB is different to Bruno and Pogba yet he is an AM creator.

I guess if we fail in the pursuit of our midfield targets we'll find out. But as you say - DM would complete the midfielders set. We'd be able to field a lot of forms of midfield combinations.
4-2-3-1 with defensive pivot - 2 players from CDM, Fred, McTominay, Matic to more attacking 4-2-3-1 with Fred and Pogba in the pivot. To a 4-3-3 where the #6 could be anyone from Fred, McT, CDM or Matic and the choice for two #8s would be between Pogba, Bruno, Donny, Fred, McT depending on the opposition and the job needed to be done. The upgrade of the defence opens a lot of possibilities to rotate the midfield. It would be really interesting to see how and if we really go for 4-3-3.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I guess if we fail in the pursuit of our midfield targets we'll find out. But as you say - DM would complete the midfielders set. We'd be able to field a lot of forms of midfield combinations.
4-2-3-1 with defensive pivot - 2 players from CDM, Fred, McTominay, Matic to more attacking 4-2-3-1 with Fred and Pogba in the pivot. To a 4-3-3 where the #6 could be anyone from Fred, McT, CDM or Matic and the choice for two #8s would be between Pogba, Bruno, Donny, Fred, McT depending on the opposition and the job needed to be done. The upgrade of the defence opens a lot of possibilities to rotate the midfield. It would be really interesting to see how and if we really go for 4-3-3.

Indeed. We removed two of our biggest terminal squad holes by adding Varane abs Sancho. I believe we are now better equipped to challenge for honors.

 

[DJ_21]

All the top teams play 4-3-3, is that because it’s a more possession based formation? I’d of thought 4-2-3-1 would of been better as it allows the extra attacker in.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

All the top teams play 4-3-3, is that because it’s a more possession based formation? I’d of thought 4-2-3-1 would of been better as it allows the extra attacker in.

I believe. It's because many wanted to either I emulate Peps double 10, Klopp's triple box to box workaholics or the famed Ajax system that revived then back to prominence.


Then Conte and Tuchel have also brought back the 3-4-3/3-5-2 to tactical prominence again.



meaning the outliers are Simeone who till last year was a 4-4-2 adherent and those like Ole, Rafa and Ancelotti who mostly implement 4-2-3-1 but are comfortable shaping their teams in a spectrum of formations.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

This didn’t happen yesterday, right? Surely would have tried it pre-season if this was really his plan.

 

[Adisa]

This didn’t happen yesterday, right? Surely would have tried it pre-season if this was really his plan.

It did. During some periods, VDB was as high as Bruno.

 

[Carl]

This didn’t happen yesterday, right? Surely would have tried it pre-season if this was really his plan.

Nah. Very clear 4231, which is what we'll see for the entire season (with the odd exception).

 

[Carl]

It did. During some periods, VDB was as high as Bruno.

VDB definitely seemed to be holding a higher starting position than Pogba was, but he still seemed to be primarily a second pivot. I did only catch about 30min total of the first half though.

 

[Bebestation]

All the top teams play 4-3-3, is that because it’s a more possession based formation? I’d of thought 4-2-3-1 would of been better as it allows the extra attacker in.

For me it's always been the fluidity of the 433 and the 3 midfielders.

It feels like they are together and not too far away from each other, with all 3 capable of making both a defensive and an attacking impact on the team and its team mates.

Compare this to the 4231 - you have two players who sit very deep and at times are unable to get forward or playing a super defensive game, sometimes the gap between them and the CAM can seem huge and sometimes the CAM feels isolated etc.

 

[Adisa]

VDB definitely seemed to be holding a higher starting position than Pogba was, but he still seemed to be primarily a second pivot. I did only catch about 30min total of the first half though.

To me it looked like 433 in possession, 4231 out of possession.

 

[DJ_21]

For me it's always been the fluidity of the 433 and the 3 midfielders.

It feels like they are together and not too far away from each other, with all 3 capable of making both a defensive and an attacking impact on the team and its team mates.

Compare this to the 4231 - you have two players who sit very deep and at times are unable to get forward or playing a super defensive game, sometimes the gap between them and the CAM can seem huge and sometimes the CAM feels isolated etc.

I agree… I think with 3 midfielders aswell it gives more balance to the team, the 3 who play in midfielder have to be the right midfielders though to make it work… have one sitting and protecting and then the other 2 as a box to box. The midfield need to have stamina and energy to make it work.

 

[VanDeBank]

This turned out be a bunch of nonsense. We've played 4-2-3-1 exclusively in pre season, with the usual exception of Matic dropping down whenever he plays and the fullbacks pushing up.

We don't have a player that's good in a single pivot and we're obviously not banking on getting one if we showed interest in keeping Pogba without having sold any other players yet to free up funds.

It's McFred in big games and Fred Pogba vs the parked bus again, with the occasional rotation by Matic (and hopefully Donny). In my opinion we're too reliant on Fred. People are right when they say he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

It'd be great if we just dropped Pogba to the bench when we go McFred. Rashford's better on the left and we'll have Sancho and a more experienced Greenwood.

 

[11101]

This didn’t happen yesterday, right? Surely would have tried it pre-season if this was really his plan.

I didn't watch the game but the M.E.N ran an article that we played 433.

 

[Abraxas]

I think a bit of a mountain has been made of a molehill with all this 4-3-3 talk. I don't see how it's going to look all that much different. If Bruno's instructions are to influence play a little deeper, and one of our sitters is allowed to get forward more regularity then it is pretty much a 4-3-3 with only small details of a few player instructions changed. That is just in possession, out of possession there will be periods players have to cover anyway and then it looks more like a 4-2-3-1.

I think it's one of those things that sounds more revolutionary in theory and on the chalkboard than it will be in reality. It's not exactly like switching to a narrow formation or 3 at the back.

 

[charlenefan]

Good post @Abraxas

With Varane coming in you'd expect even a McFred double pivot to be instructed differently to last season with less emphasis on protecting and more on attacking

 

[Macern]

I think a bit of a mountain has been made of a molehill with all this 4-3-3 talk. I don't see how it's going to look all that much different. If Bruno's instructions are to influence play a little deeper, and one of our sitters is allowed to get forward more regularity then it is pretty much a 4-3-3 with only small details of a few player instructions changed. That is just in possession, out of possession there will be periods players have to cover anyway and then it looks more like a 4-2-3-1.

I think it's one of those things that sounds more revolutionary in theory and on the chalkboard than it will be in reality. It's not exactly like switching to a narrow formation or 3 at the back.

I think the main point is to drop one of McTominay or Fred for Pogba/Rashford, meaning that we’d have an extra creative midfielder or attacker and one less ’defensive‘ midfielder. It would make a significant difference if we were to do this against the top teams, but it remains to be seen if we’re actually going to do it. Also I think moving Pogba up alongside Bruno in a 433 means that Pogba has the same defensive responsibilities as Bruno, and less than what he has had in a double-pivot in 4231. It might make us less exposed since the defensive midfielder would have a more specialized defensive role.

 

[Robbo*]

Has Pogba ever played for France or Juve as anything other than the most attacking of a midfield three, even if he takes up a position in the left channel rather than number 10? Seems to me that we’ve been trying to do something that others haven’t in hoping that he will fit in with Bruno as a more advanced player whereas France and Juve had a 6 and an 8 alongside him. Hopefully we can make it work - as has been said to death on here, it looks like it needs a very solid and consistent 6 if we are to ask Pogba to play at 8 and Bruno at 10. Here’s hoping.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Has Pogba ever played for France or Juve as anything other than the most attacking of a midfield three, even if he takes up a position in the left channel rather than number 10? Seems to me that we’ve been trying to do something that others haven’t in hoping that he will fit in with Bruno as a more advanced player whereas France and Juve had a 6 and an 8 alongside him. Hopefully we can make it work - as has been said to death on here, it looks like it needs a very solid and consistent 6 if we are to ask Pogba to play at 8 and Bruno at 10. Here’s hoping.

Easy fix, don’t let Bruno play as a 10. Have him as an 8 and we’ll probably be much better off for it.

 

[tjb]

Easy fix, don’t let Bruno play as a 10. Have him as an 8 and we’ll probably be much better off for it.

Bruno has produced, Pogba hasn't. I sincerely hope you are joking concerning Bruno.It might have gone over my head so I'm just making sure.

 

[DJ_21]

I don’t get some people saying Bruno and pogba won’t work well in a 3… I think it will work but it all depends on the DM that is playing with them and the coaches need to get pogba to do more running, look at how city play with 1 holding and 2 attacking mids… the coaches have to drill it into the players and get them use to the system for it to fully work.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Bruno has produced, Pogba hasn't. I sincerely hope you are joking concerning Bruno.It might have gone over my head so I'm just making sure.

Not at all, Think we’ll be better if Bruno changes the way he plays and gets in to midfield and gives people passing options instead of always just trying to play as a striker. So many games we struggled last season was in part because he was too far away from the midfield so we struggled to move the play up the field. If he plays slightly deeper as an 8 with a partner and someone holding we’ll be a far better team than him playing as 10.

 

[tjb]

Not at all, Think we’ll be better if Bruno changes the way he plays and gets in to midfield and gives people passing options instead of always just trying to play as a striker. So many games we struggled last season was in part because he was too far away from the midfield so we struggled to move the play up the field. If he plays slightly deeper as an 8 with a partner and someone holding we’ll be a far better team than him playing as 10.

I don't agree. We lacked any connection to our attack before Bruno became our 10, it's like people almost forget what it was like. Can he play an 8, sure. But to act like he causes any part of our problems is ridiculous. He takes risks because he has been the only person in our te consistently taking risks. He was our topscorer and top assisted last season and carried our attack. That's what good attacking players do, they make things happen. We had safe passing Mata for years and where did that get us. We aren't Barcelona, Tika taka is not our thing and it is not how every team has to play. Cantona took risks, Bergkamp took risks, Lampard took risks even from that deeper position, Silva is the only successful premier league no.10 that wasn't direct and even with him his dribbling ability made him a constant threat.

 

[The United]

Not at all, Think we’ll be better if Bruno changes the way he plays and gets in to midfield and gives people passing options instead of always just trying to play as a striker. So many games we struggled last season was in part because he was too far away from the midfield so we struggled to move the play up the field. If he plays slightly deeper as an 8 with a partner and someone holding we’ll be a far better team than him playing as 10.

We struggled in those because of Bruno being too far up with 2 midfielders behind.

To fix it, we play with 1 midfielder behind him and another midfielder who is known to hold the ball too long beside him. So that we can isolate the lone striker up front instead of Bruno.

And, it had nothing to do with the two midfielders behind not being able to pass or carry the ball.

 

[laughtersassassin]

No DM so we can't really do it.

Another painful year of McFred on the horizon?

 

[Polar]

we struggled to move the play up the field. If he [Bruno] plays slightly deeper as an 8 with a partner and someone holding we’ll be a far better team than him playing as 10.

I tend to agree with you. Bruno improved our offensive play a lot, especially the end product. Playing him as nr.8 will likely improve our build up play, and it’s a fair chance our end product wouldn’t suffer too much. Bruno often made a difference when we established play high up on the pitch. In those situations I think he can do the same as nr.8. It’s worth a try, especially now as we also have Sancho to play on.

 

[lucashood]

This has to be the team v leeds please ole


De Gea

Bissaka Lindelof Mcguire Shaw

Matic
VDB Fernandes

Greenwood Sancho

Martial

 

[Pavl3n]

This has to be the team v leeds please ole


De Gea

Bissaka Lindelof Mcguire Shaw

Matic
VDB Fernandes

Greenwood Sancho

Martial

I'm genuinely excited about Mcguire.

Regardless, if we get a midfielder or not this summer, we'll try the 4-3-3. I think the coaches are confident enough to deploy Fred or Matic alone, with Varane in the back line.
Just the sole thought of knowing that if you lose possession, Varane could nip in the bud that counter attack, will give the DM more confidence and sense of security. While with Victor both McFred had to be constantly on their toes knowing one wrong move and it's almost certain that Victor won't deal with the turnaround and we'll be scrambling back defending the penalty area.

 

[lucashood]

I personally think the cdm they want is Rice or No one

 

[Nou_Camp99]

This has to be the team v leeds please ole


De Gea

Bissaka Lindelof Mcguire Shaw

Matic
VDB Fernandes

Greenwood Sancho

Martial

Can't see Sancho starting first game. 30-35 min cameo almost nailed on for me.

 

[LuckyScout78]

433 is a more advanced formation than 442. 433 has the root from the Dutch, then Barcelona to City.
You get to have the right players with the tripel CM. Special the LCM and RCM beside the DCM player. Like Iniesta, Kevin De Bruyne and Barella. They are runners with the ball. They only pass the ball. The pass opponent players with the ball, from the midfield. Beside scoring ability.

You can City, Klopp and Bielsa are playing 433. More conintental formation. Compare to the British 442. In the defensive and without the ball. 4-3-3 turn out to become 4-5-1. A compact and tight midfield. So the midfield of 5 compare to 442 is more tighter and compact than 442. That is the biggest different. And definitely different playing style too. 442 is more direct.

 

[Adam-Utd]

433 is a more advanced formation than 442. 433 has the root from the Dutch, then Barcelona to City.
You get to have the right players with the tripel CM. Special the LCM and RCM beside the DCM player. Like Iniesta, Kevin De Bruyne and Barella. They are runners with the ball. They only pass the ball. The pass opponent players with the ball, from the midfield. Beside scoring ability.

You can City, Klopp and Bielsa are playing 433. More conintental formation. Compare to the British 442. In the defensive and without the ball. 4-3-3 turn out to become 4-5-1. A compact and tight midfield. So the midfield of 5 compare to 442 is more tighter and compact than 442. That is the biggest different. And definitely different playing style too. 442 is more direct.

So where does Olsson fit into this?

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

433 is a more advanced formation than 442

In the defensive and without the ball. 4-3-3 turn out to become 4-5-1. A compact and tight midfield. So the midfield of 5 compare to 442 is more tighter and compact than 442. That is the biggest different.

This depends on the manager's instructions / how the team is set up, and has virtually nothing to do with the choice of 4-3-3 vs 4-4-2 or any other numbers.

Simeone's 4-4-2 is the epitome of compactness and defending in a tight shape, probably the best example of it that we've seen all decade. Compare that with 2018/19 United shipping 50-odd league goals in a season.

Liverpool also don't line up in a 4-5-1 without the ball, they leave both their wide forwards high and narrow with the intention of getting them in behind early, or into the box for the full-backs to set them up (this is also why none of their 3 midfielders are those Iniesta/De Bruyne types: they're all in the team to win the ball and move it quickly without needing to do anything creative). And this is completely different from the way Klopp played when he used a 4-2-3-1 to win back-to-back titles with Dortmund, so there's nothing continental about his preference for one formation over the other either.

Talking about 4-4-2 being more direct, United played 4-3-3 under Van Gaal in early 2015 and it was as direct as we've been in years with Fellaini essentially playing as a target man in midfield. Then we switched to 4-2-3-1 the next season and became the exact opposite of direct by putting out the most tedious football I've seen in my life.