the only time I remember is when we had a back 3 of Carrick, Fletcher and Evra away to Fulham when every CB was injured.
Formation change next season (4-3-3)
- Thread starter Polar
- Start date
the only time I remember is when we had a back 3 of Carrick, Fletcher and Evra away to Fulham when every CB was injured.
IIRC it was not a back 3. It was just Carrick and Fletcher at CB. De Laet at RB and Evra at LB.
Yep, I just checked.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8414926.stm
I am not sure it's reasonable to expect the same numbers from fernandes year after year and its not wise to put so much on one player either. As long as he's still effective I can live with him doing less if we do more as a team.
That's just summer dreaming! No way we get Trippier, Rice, Varane and Sancho in one window!
That line up works against weaker teams but against stronger sides, not even the top 4, I think we lose the battle in midfield and draw a lot of games. I don’t see Pogba and Bruno being able to handle the defensive responsibilities required for a full season. With that said, I do like the idea of being able to change formations for specific games and even during games.4 - 1 - 2 - 3 Line-up :
...............Henderson..................
AWB - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
................New CDM....................
.............Bruno - Pogba...............
...Sancho - Cavani - Rashford...
If only we could get our hands on a world class player such as Kimmich... Kante... Casemiro.... However being realistic who could we possibly get to fill that position ? maybe Wilfred Ndidi ? or could any of our existing players be trusted to do the job ?
Seems like most people like the idea, 4-3-3, but are a bit sceptical because of Pogba.
I expect a new midfielder and it’s probably 50/50 if Pogba stays. Both bricks are crucial premises for this discussion, so this discussion will probably wave back and forth until this transfer window is more sorted out.
Most of these lineups are fantasy football starting 11s. In a 4-3-3, there are two schools of thought. One is to have a Busquets / Fernandinho / Kimmich type who can do it all. Positioning, distribution and defend. Of course, these players are few and far between. The other two midfielders are creative passers with high work rates. Iniesta/Xavi, KDB / Gundogan, etc.
The second school of thought is to have a DM that is more or less a deep lying playmaker, but also is very smart with positional sense. Jorginho, Pirlo, Veratti, maybe a Frenkie DeJong. The other two midfielders are ball winning midfielders who can pass and get forward at times. Mount, McKennie, Henderson, Winaldjum. This can work really well in a counter pressing system like Liverpool uses.of the top of my head,
unfortunately, we are sort of caught in the middle. We don’t have that Busquets type, nor the Jorginho type. To further compound the problem, the brilliance of Pogba and Bruno is that they are deadly on the counter attack and in the final third, but aren’t ball winners and Pogba’s work rate is poor.
McFred fit the second typology. In fact, I believe Fred would thrive in that system — he plays that role for Brazil.
Declan Rice doesn’t fit either. His passing range is too limited for the Busquets or Jorginho roles. He’s essentially a CB playing as a shield for the back 4.
Off the top of my head, there’s not a lot of options available for that type of player: maybe Brozovic, maybe Veratti, Saul might be able to play that role, but it’s not a given.
at the very least, we may have buy a DM and sell Pogba too to make this 4-3-3 work.
Casemiro? Arguably the world's best DM? Doesn't really distribute as much, but is the best at the below categories.
Kroos sits ahead of him, who's hardly high on the work rate category, but holds his position, and Modric who plays in the most advanced role.
To be a successful side -- by which I mean lifting a PL trophy and at least getting the SF in the CL -- we'll have to deploy different tactics in different situations. The double-pivot will have its uses, as well as the single pivot and even a back 3. There's no single right answer for all occasions.
More important than our tactics is the maturity we need to see from some of our key players. Martial needs to start acting like a man instead of a spoiled child when things don't go his way. Lindelof needs to stop getting bullied. Donny needs to be more direct and take more daring chances. WB needs to commit to improving his attacking game. Fred needs to play with more composure. Pogba, if he stays, needs to put in a proper shift on a more consistent basis. Rashford needs to hold his hand up when he's not fit. Lingard, if he stays, needs to put the club above his brand. And De Gea needs to take more responsibility and act like a proper world class keeper, which every one of us knows he can be.
If Varane does come in, we can get by with either Fred or McTominay in a midfield 3. Not optimal, of course, but of the back line does its job and Bruno and Pogba are firing on all cylinders we can make this work with Fred or McTominay.
More important than our tactics is the maturity we need to see from some of our key players. Martial needs to start acting like a man instead of a spoiled child when things don't go his way. Lindelof needs to stop getting bullied. Donny needs to be more direct and take more daring chances. WB needs to commit to improving his attacking game. Fred needs to play with more composure. Pogba, if he stays, needs to put in a proper shift on a more consistent basis. Rashford needs to hold his hand up when he's not fit. Lingard, if he stays, needs to put the club above his brand. And De Gea needs to take more responsibility and act like a proper world class keeper, which every one of us knows he can be.
If Varane does come in, we can get by with either Fred or McTominay in a midfield 3. Not optimal, of course, but of the back line does its job and Bruno and Pogba are firing on all cylinders we can make this work with Fred or McTominay.
Great post.. Not sure if I agree with everything straight away, but very interesting thoughts.
So if we think about existing players and current transfer rumours, Saul is the only one fitting the CM position?
CM:
- Saul
- Camavinga
- McT
- DVB
- Bruno
- Fred
- Pogba
Last edited:
Very good post. Just to highlight one important point, you use 4-3-3 to play more midfielders (as in the examples you've presented) and less attackers rather than the other way around, which is why the comments about "more attacking 4-3-3 formation" sound so strange to me. Basically it gives more control over the midfield area, which is something we have never been concerned about.
One thing that bugs me, we could've used 4-3-3 with single pivot the last season. We had Pogba, van de Beek and Fred who all fit that formation better than double pivot.
Not to mention I am yet to see any sings of us getting better DM than Matic, who by the way, fits that sitting role perfectly.
4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 aren’t really that different. We could even play both at the same time.
Out of possession Bruno drops into a RCM position to help with the defensive side of things. In possession he moves into the no10 slot.
I think what people think when they say a more attacking 4-3-3 is that last season we had McTominay and Fred playing every game. So we’d be swapping a less skilled midfielder for Pogba or VDB or is a more attacking midfielder. In theory 4-3-3 should encourage more attacking play from the full backs as they have the LCM and RCM offering a little bit more cover (closer to the wing) than a double pivot.
All told though 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1 are all variations on the theme and it shouldn’t really matter which we pick. It’s much more important that the passing patterns, overlapping runs, movement around the box, pressing etc are all drilled well rather than whether player x is an attacking no8 or a no10.
Watched a bit of Stephen Howson yesterday talking on reports about us looking to go 4-3-3 in the next season. So he claimed he asked Mike Phelan: 'Hey, are we looking to go 4-3-3?'. To which Mike responded: 'Yeah, but we want to be flexible. We want to have more than one formation in the locker.'
It's interesting to see how hard we push for a midfielder. It will tell us whether we've been going with McFred because Pogba doesn't contribute enough defensively or because our defence was not strong enough to accommodate such formation.
It's interesting to see how hard we push for a midfielder. It will tell us whether we've been going with McFred because Pogba doesn't contribute enough defensively or because our defence was not strong enough to accommodate such formation.
But it's not about swapping players, it's totally different approach. In 4-3-3 you need both players ahead of single pivot to contribute both offensively and defensively. How is that more offensive than having two conservative midfielders behind front 4?
I don't get the idea we're "too defensive". We're playing the most offensive variant of 4-2-3-1/4-2-4 already. The only way to be more offensive is to replace Wan Bissaka with someone more attacking oriented.
We've not been losing points last season because we were too defensive.
Means are we getting a new DM and if yes" who that could be" aside Carmavinga who is not keen to come to us
I don’t think it’s necessarily more or less offensive is my point. Are City a more attacking side than us? They play 4-3-3 and it’s their style of play, attacking full backs etc that make it so. Formation doesn’t have to dictate intent.
To my mind, instead of Bruno being solely focused on attacking he has to help out defensively. Conversely Pogba instead of primarily being disciplined alongside another midfielder has more license to attack. I largely think they balance out to roughly the same level of attacking. What I do think it helps with is creating triangle and support in midfield which can help us retain the ball and move the opposition around. For example a triumvirate of Shaw, Pogba and Rashford (which and combined nicely before) on the LW and AWB/Tripper, Bruno and Sancho/Greenwood on the RW.
Exactly, it's pretty much the same. We sacrifice Bruno up top, where clearly he is most effective, but get more from Pogba as he doesn't need to be so disciplined positionally.
We also know Bruno is pretty shite defensively, and both him and Pogba prefer the same side on the pitch.
All things considered I'm very sceptical why playing that setup improves us offensively, because for sure it doesn't make us more secure defensively which should be our main concern.
It's because the sharing of duties, especially offensive duties, makes us more multi-pronged and less predictable in attack.
If we can get a situation where Bruno can play a ball from deep to Pogba and vice versa, teams will have a harder time coming up with a strategy to nullify both. It's much easier when Bruno and Pogba both have much more defined roles. Not to mention defensively we'll be more solid with an added body in the center, which has knock on effects like freeing up the forwards a bit.
The other added benefit is that 4-3-3 is very suited to possession football, which helps with sustaining attacks.
Sure. Love me some Casemiro. I see him as the Busquets / Fernandinho category. Maybe the best in the world at defensive positioning, knows when to commit a foul to break up a counter attack. Surely Kroos and Modric are the creative two.
I've watched enough of Saul to think he could play as that deep lying playmaker role, a la Jorginho, but it's not nailed on. Most of his career at Atleti has been as box-to-box CM. I think he's class as a player, and the only reason he's on the outs is that Llorente has taken his spot when they play a 4-4-2, unless Joao Felix is on the bench, then Llorente plays as the 2nd striker.
I really don't think that a 4-3-3 featuring Saul - Pogba - Bruno can work. Too many unknowns and Saul is not your Busquets type. I really rate Saul, he's be an incredible replacement for Pogba next to Bruno in a 4-3-3, but then we're stuck with Fred/McTominay at the base of the 4-3-3, and that just doesn't suit them as they aren't classic Fernandinho type DMs.
I think you can play an attacking 4-3-3 (Busquets / Iniesta / Xavi was pretty damn attacking) and a defensive 4-3-3 (Atletico Madrid in past years with Partey / Koke / Saul) which morphs into a 4-5-1 when defending.
In my opinion, none of the three -- Pogba / VDB / Fred -- have the attributes to play as the single pivot. All three are naive defensively. Fred is a willing defender but positionally naive. VDB looks lost almost all of the time, both positionally and with the ball. Pogba is positionally naive AND has a poor workrate AND makes crazy errors (tackles, hand balls, giveaways). You want Pogba far up the pitch.
I believe that IF Ole does not bring in a classic DM (who?) and it's looking like that will be the case, he's hoping a Varane/Maguire partnership will allow us to play Fred as the DM with Pogba and Bruno as the forward creative two in a 4-3-3. Frankly, I just can't see it. We still will need to play out of the back, Fred's not good at that, and neither is Pogba (both a lot of loose touches and bad giveaways). I think we'll be playing a 4-2-3-1 with Bruno closer to goal -- which is a good thing -- by October. No way he goes into that string of tough fixtures with Fred dealing with a Man City and Liverpool press.
I'm sure the scouting team has a potential DM /DLP that they are following, and maybe we bring him in. Will most likely need to sell though to make that happen.
Isn't a 433 with with 2 attack minded mids and 1 defensive mid more or less the norm for big clubs? The achilles heel that has held us back the last two seasons (dropped points against low block teams) is exactly the problem playing a more attacking 433 can solve. Last season it was the difference between a legitimate title push and dropping out of the title race in March.
I’d argue faster better passing and movement would benefit us more than simply just playing a 4-3-3. Do that in any system and we’ll vastly improve.
I'd like to see us press high up the pitch with a high line, and a fast centre back is a necessity for that.
Without possession, a solid 4-3-3 would be my choice:
Without possession, a solid 4-3-3 would be my choice:
De Gea
AWB - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
Neves
Bruno - McTominay
Sancho - Cavani - Grealish
Then with the ball, change formation similarly to how Italy do to get more from Shaw:AWB - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
Neves
Bruno - McTominay
Sancho - Cavani - Grealish
De Gea
AWB - Varane - Maguire
Neves
McTominay
---------- Bruno - Grealish - Shaw
Sancho -Cavani ---------------
For the box to box role, we have McTominay, Fred, VDB, Pogba and Pereira as options (the I expect the last two to leave). Grealish is a pipe dream and the others are still questionable, but the system and high energy pressing feels like a natural progression given the signings we've made over the last few windows.AWB - Varane - Maguire
Neves
McTominay
---------- Bruno - Grealish - Shaw
Sancho -Cavani ---------------
Last edited:
Imo it's actually pretty simple.
I read somewhere that Ole would try a 433 and let McT to be more attacking. Imo the whole reason behind this is the Varane transfer.
Getting Varane theoretically gives us a stronger defense. Thus we don't need to play with 2 DM anymore. Fred is a DM by nature, so he'll play as the DM. Then McT back to his natural B2B which allow him to involve more offensively.
In short, imo we should forget about all the fantasy lineups and don't be surprised if we start with McFred next season. It's the same players but actually not the same. We'd probably get a new DM/MC if we manage to sell Pogba or VDB but I don't have much hope for that.
Our lineup next season:
Henderson
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred
McT - Bruno
Sancho - Cavani - Rashford
I read somewhere that Ole would try a 433 and let McT to be more attacking. Imo the whole reason behind this is the Varane transfer.
Getting Varane theoretically gives us a stronger defense. Thus we don't need to play with 2 DM anymore. Fred is a DM by nature, so he'll play as the DM. Then McT back to his natural B2B which allow him to involve more offensively.
In short, imo we should forget about all the fantasy lineups and don't be surprised if we start with McFred next season. It's the same players but actually not the same. We'd probably get a new DM/MC if we manage to sell Pogba or VDB but I don't have much hope for that.
Our lineup next season:
Henderson
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred
McT - Bruno
Sancho - Cavani - Rashford
I don't think this is the norm at all.
Real during their successful period had Casemeiro, Kroos, Modric of which maybe Modric is attack minded, Kroos and Casemeiro are more controlling players.
Liverpool played Fabinho, Gini, Henderson, of which none of them are really attack minded
Its more the balance, teams hardly play 2 attack minded players, its usually 1 DM, 1 B2B and one attack minded player.
I don't think so. I can't think of a team that plays 2 attack minded midfielders. Maybe City, but they are a different animal.
What attribute does Fred have that makes you say he's a "DM by nature"?
I read somewhere that his natural position is DM and he played a holding position for Shakhtar before comming to United.
In FM his natural position is also DLM if my memory serves me right.
Unless we buy a new DM then the DM position in the new 433 will be Fred I think. Matic is simply too old.
I see, but I think "Fred" and "holding" shouldn't be used in the same sentence. He is the farthest away from what I call a "holding midfielder", and I can assure you, if we ever play 4-3-3, it won't be Fred at DM. He will be in the team, but not the last guy in front of the back 4.
As for Matic, he would fit that role very well, but he needs to be surrounded by two midfielders, not attacking midfielders doing a job in midfield.
I get what you mean, agreed Fred is not good enough for that. But don't be surprised if you see him there this season. We survived without a quality RW for like 7,8 years we surely could do without a quality DM, hopefully not that long though.
I also think so.. Last season too many players went to deep in our play up from CB and we often only had Bruno as the next forward alternative in the centre of the pitch. 4-3-3 will hopefully contribute to sort that problem; give us more offensive passing alternatives in the next moves.
Many people say Pogba is best when he plays from deep, but I think he often went to deep. I prefer when Pogba is positioned to receive the ball (is an alternative) for the player who is played up from CB/Back.
Last edited:
Sancho --------------------- Cavani ------------------ Greenwood
------------ Pogba ---------------------------------- Bruno -------------
------------------------------------ Fred -----------------------------------
Shaw ------------- Maguire ------------ Varane ------------ AWB
Starting 11 vs Leeds
------------ Pogba ---------------------------------- Bruno -------------
------------------------------------ Fred -----------------------------------
Shaw ------------- Maguire ------------ Varane ------------ AWB
Starting 11 vs Leeds
It's not about quality, he is just totally different player to what is required at DM (holding position in 4-3-3). Fred is a maddog chasing around midfield, he's just not suited to that role, plus he's too weak physically and too short to play there. His passing is very very limited to play deep as well.
By the way, I really rate Fred as the second midfielder.
I'd rather play 1) Matic and 2) McTominay in that role and Fred as the second supporting midfielder on the left. If we're not getting a DM we're surely not playing 4-3-3.
When are we going to see the formation change? Two games in and we still have not seen the formation change, I understand its not the first team but I would have assumed Ole would have tried to some changes in the way we play.
I would try this out in preseason.
Lindelof
Van de Beek Bruno
Van de Beek Bruno
Not sure how it will prepare us for the famously 11 a side premier league.
The humor is lost on me but there you go.
Henderson
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Lindelof
Van de Beek Bruno
Sancho ............................Greenwood
Martial
I'd have Shaw pushing way up to.AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Lindelof
Van de Beek Bruno
Sancho ............................Greenwood
Martial
You can also famously only play your own players.
Ok, no Varane then I'll let Jones get a run out for a laugh.You can also famously only play your own players.
I’ve always said it’s best for both parts if Lingard move on to example WH on a permanent basis. At the same time Lingard has shown great character - the way he has responded to troubling times.
Started to reconsider my view on Lingard.
Perhaps he could benefit from a change to 4-3-3. Maybe he still has a future in United - could be an valuable asset on our midfield, especially if Pogba leaves.
Started to reconsider my view on Lingard.
Perhaps he could benefit from a change to 4-3-3. Maybe he still has a future in United - could be an valuable asset on our midfield, especially if Pogba leaves.
Famously popular on here is to just change a defender to a new position .