Do individual mistakes undermine us more than a lack of play style? (New manager, same ol' rubbish)

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Interesting choice of words this. I mean, reading this thread, there were many descriptions of what the issues with United are. It seems weird to come "join the party" by talking of the truth and ignoring the well formulated points being made in this thread.

Says a person who absolutely missed my point right off the bat....

Truth is, your argument isn't very convincing. And a team that has Pogba and Bruno on the pitch, shouldn't need to have a third playmaker of all things to be able to control possession better.

You would have grounds to claim my argument 'isn't very convincing' if you even understood it in the first place. You never did:

1. I never stated ANYWHERE United need a 3rd playmaker.
2. Instead I clearly stated United need a play maker in deep midfield. It's you assuming wrongly I meant a 3rd one
2. I never even talked of 'controlling possession better" . I clearly said controlling games. 2 very different things. Against Villa we didn't need to control possession better. We had 60% of it. We needed to control the game better. 2 very different matters

Now back to my actual argument. I will elaborate:

There is literally not single team in the epl. Let alone ANY big side in europe that controls games with 2 completely defensive players in the heart of midfield. Why? Having 2 completely defensive oriented players causes 2 major problems: a) it makes it harder to progress the ball upfield when you encounter pressing. Because passing forward to break lines or around a press is NOT their forte 2) It robs you of strength in attack because you have to sacrifice one of your attackers for accommodate a second play maker (a.k.a Pogba or Bruno wide wide or left) Unbalancing your attack needlessly. Which quickly becomes an achilles hill unless you possess two full backs with identical and top end attacking prowess. It also further results in serious problems when trying to break down low blocks. Who are broken down 9/10 times by stretching them consistently on either flank, which is nigh impossible with two defensive DMS and a typical play maker who likes to hold the ball on a flank.

If you still think that is unconvincing. So be it....

 

[NZT-One]

Says a person absolutely missed my point right of the bat....


You would have grounds to claim my argument 'isn't very convincing' if you even understood it in the first place. You never did:

1. I never stated ANYWHERE United need a 3rd playmaker.
2. Instead I clearly stated United need a play maker in deep midfield. Its you assuming I meant a 3rd one
2. I never even talked of 'controlling possession better" . I clearly said controlling games. 2 very different things. Against Villa we didnt need to control possession better. We had 60% of it. We needed to control the game better

Now back to my actual argument. I will elaborate:

There is literally not single team in the epl. Let alone ANY big side in europe that controls games with 2 completely defensive players in the heart of midfield. Why? Having 2 completely defensive oriented players causes 2 major problems: a) it makes it harder to progress the ball upfield when you encounter pressing. Because passing forward to break lines or around a press is NOT their forte 2) It robs you of strength in attack because you have to sacrifice one of your attackers for accommodate second play maker (a.k.a Pogba or Bruno wide wide or left) Unbalancing your attack needlessly. Which quickly becomes an achilles hill unless you possess two full backs with identical and top end attacking prowess.

If you still think that is unconvincing. So be it[

So not to make the same dumb mistake of misunderstanding you again - you think, all our problems regarding controlling a game would be solved, if we would get rid of Fred and/or McTominay for say a 6-years-younger version of Matic who anchors infront of Pogba and Bruno who do the playmaking while Matic does anchoring and "deep playmaking"?

edit: or different: if you would be able to support the manager in his mission to enable us to control games, what would you do? (you can do a transfer, a formation change, whatever you want)

 

[Smores]

It's very hard to say as they all lead into one another. A team where each player knows the system and what to do in each situation will make substantially less individual mistakes. Which shows they're not really individual mistakes, it's a consequence of team structure and tactics.

Fred in whatever game it was where he seemingly made mistake after mistake was completely screwed over by our setup. I find it hard to blame an individual in situations like that where tactics result in pressure.

 

[Polar]

You do realise there is other DM’s capable of playing for United than Declan Rice, right? Any one of the 3 I listed would massively improve us.

Agree with you, but I just face the fact United seems to have Rice as nr. 1 target and want to wait on him.

I would’ve preferred a Kross or Modric type of player besides McT(erminator); a playmaker or a more creative fighter..

 

[eire-red]

Let's take a simple, real world example. When you go into your job every day, and you know your role inside out, mistakes should be minimised. Unless you aren't capable of doing the job you are tasked with.

So either 2 things for me; the players don't know their jobs, or they aren't good enough to do what they are asked to do. If they don't know their roles, that is poor my management. If they aren't capable to do the role they are being asked, then that's equally idiotic.

I know Fred is currently the easy target, but why do we insist on having him play this deep lying role when it's just painfully obvious he's not able to do it? There's so many other things you could pick apart, I don't really know where to start. But I think the mistakes stem from a mixture of ill-suited players trying to play a system that lacks cohesion, and when we run out of ideas on how we should play, we just invite the opposition onto ourselves and mistakes naturally happen from there.

A lot of the mistakes look like unforced errors, but more often than not it comes from lack of options on the ball, lack of runs etc, or just missing that familiarity of knowing your teammates inside out.

 

[mav_9me]

Says a person who absolutely missed my point right off the bat....


You would have grounds to claim my argument 'isn't very convincing' if you even understood it in the first place. You never did:

1. I never stated ANYWHERE United need a 3rd playmaker.
2. Instead I clearly stated United need a play maker in deep midfield. It's you assuming wrongly I meant a 3rd one
2. I never even talked of 'controlling possession better" . I clearly said controlling games. 2 very different things. Against Villa we didn't need to control possession better. We had 60% of it. We needed to control the game better. 2 very different matters

Now back to my actual argument. I will elaborate:

There is literally not single team in the epl. Let alone ANY big side in europe that controls games with 2 completely defensive players in the heart of midfield. Why? Having 2 completely defensive oriented players causes 2 major problems: a) it makes it harder to progress the ball upfield when you encounter pressing. Because passing forward to break lines or around a press is NOT their forte 2) It robs you of strength in attack because you have to sacrifice one of your attackers for accommodate a second play maker (a.k.a Pogba or Bruno wide wide or left) Unbalancing your attack needlessly. Which quickly becomes an achilles hill unless you possess two full backs with identical and top end attacking prowess. It also further results in serious problems when trying to break down low blocks. Who are broken down 9/10 times by stretching them consistently on either flank, which is nigh impossible with two defensive DMS and a typical play maker who likes to hold the ball on a flank.

If you still think that is unconvincing. So be it....

I agree about the problem with 2 CM who are inept with the ball. So why doesn't Ole do anything about it?

I will give you my opinion. I think he wants their work rate cuz he knows Matic doesn't have the legs, and Pogba isn't good enough defensively. My problem here is why didn't he address this in summer?

 

[Bobcat]

I don't know whether we make more mistakes in possession than other teams but it seems we regularly make mistakes such as mishit/underhit/overhit passes, bad touches, players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.

Are these mistakes undermining any attempts at actually having a play style? While on the face of it it may seem we lack a style, our primary objective is to get the ball into the forward players as quickly as possible in order to create quick scoring opportunities. However, our play breaks down when it reaches the likes of Wan Bissaka who can't cross and plays short passes which allow the defenders time to get into position. Moreover, certain players shuck any sort of creative responsibility and just try to get it to players like Fernandes to do something even if he's not in a position to do so.

It seems to me that first we need to address these constant gaffes before we can execute any form of play style otherwise every move will just break down whenever attempt more than 2 passes in a row.

Furthermore, who do we blame for the amount of mistakes, the players or the coaches?

I think you touched into something important here and i want to add another thing: Most of out players seems terrified of taking on players unless we are around the opponent box. Im not talking about Maguire and co nutmegging strikers and doing roulette around their own box, but just the simple act of taking the ball past a player by running into empty space to create a numbers advantage

This is especially noticeable when other teams press us high and we try to play ourselves out, because unless the ball finds someone like Shaw, everyone treats the ball like a hot potato until we get out or concede possession again, usually its the latter.

I just wish we could be a bit braver with the ball.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So not to make the same dumb mistake of misunderstanding you again - you think, all our problems regarding controlling a game would be solved, if we would get rid of Fred and/or McTominay for say a 6-years-younger version of Matic who anchors infront of Pogba and Bruno who do the playmaking while Matic does anchoring and "deep playmaking"?

Not quite. Rather currently I want either Fred/ Mctominay/Matic employed alongside Pogba or Van De beek in the double pivot. With Bruno as the 10. NEVER 2 dedicated defenders.
My reasoning is thus:
1. With Varane in our starting center defence pair there is absolutely NO need to employ two defensive players in that pivot.
2. There is no good reason to play a play maker wide if one is employed as a deep midfielder.

I'm not amongst those who believe we have to go first to the market to before we can see that happen. I've also always believed the double defensive player was employed to protect the very imbalanced Magurie and Lindeloff pair. Who are so slow they need 2 players to cover their runs if they advanced up pitch to play out of defence, plus there lack of pace, especially at home which tends to make them play a deeper line crates a no mans land between our midfield and the defence that low block teams exploit whenever we play at home. Which repeatedly showed up in our home results last season.It was like the technical fault in the death star from star wars. It robbed us of creativity whilst not really protecting us from disaster vs weak opponents.

Away from home it worked fine because we operated a lower block and the onus was rarely on us to attack

edit: or different: if you would be able to support the manager in his mission to enable us to control games, what would you do? (you can do a transfer, a formation change, whatever you want)

If it were up to me:
First. Id simply play one defensive minded player. With Pogba or Van de beek next to them. With that more defensive minded partner with the brief to hold their position infront of the defence. Never operating more than 5-8 meters way from Varane and his partners in center defence. Whilst the other can rotate around them and go forward.

Then in January Id go pick up Bissouma to play that exact role long term as I faze out Matic.

 

[Champ]

LvG was up there possession and passing wise too. Doesn't mean he had a clue how to coach attacking football. Same goes for Ole. Our sheer talent in the side will lead to high possession and passing stats in most games. Especially against the dross we've faced in the league so far.

Doesn't take away the fact that we look toothless up front.

Again, we are the second highest scorers in the league.
We are in top segment of chances created and big chances missed.

Also the fact that I put attacking passing metrics in my post suggested that it's not just sideways passing but attacking movements.

 

[AneRu]

Not quite. Rather currently I want either Fred/ Mctominay/Matic employed alongside Pogba or Van De beek in the double pivot. With Bruno as the 10. NEVER 2 dedicated defenders.
My reasoning is thus:
1. With Varane in our starting center defence pair there is absolutely NO need to employ two defensive players in that pivot.
2. There is no good reason to play a play maker wide if one is employed as a deep midfielder.

I'm not amongst those who believe we have to go first to the market to before we can see that happen. I've also always believed the double defensive player was employed to protect the very imbalanced Magurie and Lindeloff pair. Who are so slow they need 2 players to cover their runs if they advanced up pitch to play out of defence, plus there lack of pace, especially at home which tends to make them play a deeper line crates a no mans land between our midfield and the defence that low block teams exploit whenever we play at home. Which repeatedly showed up in our home results last season.It was like the technical fault in the death star from star wars. It robbed us of creativity whilst not really protecting us from disaster vs weak opponents.

Away from home it worked fine because we operated a lower block and the onus was rarely on us to attack

If it were up to me:
First. Id simply play one defensive minded player. With Pogba or Van de beek next to them. With that more defensive minded partner with the brief to hold their position infront of the defence. Never operating more than 5-8 meters way from Varane and his partners in center defence. Whilst the other can rotate around them and go forward.

Then in January Id go pick up Bissouma to play that exact role long term as I faze out Matic.

I think the issues we have are a bit more complex than that, the major problem we have is that each of our pivot players has issues that stop them from being adequate or be deployed securely as a single DM that plays alongside Pogba or DVB.
1. Matic has mobility issues and is slow with the ball making him susceptible to the press and meaning that he needs someone to be his legs whilst he sits picking off interceptions.
2. Fred has energy but isn't strong in the tackle and his short passing game is weak.
3. McTominay is a poor passer, slow across the ground, has poor positioning but he is energetic and can drive the ball forward.
Add this to the fact that the player who can solve our ball progression issues from deep, Pogba, doesn't have the defensive nous or the energy to press the ball you reach this scenario when Scot and Fred are the only duo the manager trusts. They cover for each other's weakness, they complement each other especially in a rear guard action. Problems arise when teams press us or sit deep and mark out Bruno meaning that more is asked of McFred on the ball.

Signing Bissouma in the summer was the sensible decision but we failed to sell off enough players in time. What I don't understand is why did we sign both of Amad and Sancho, if last summer we knew we were going to buy Sancho why did we buy Amad, who we never had any intention of playing? Then this summer why did sign Sancho when Greenwood had elevated his game and Amad/Elanga had shown promise of being able to contribute?

Stick Rice, Bissouma or any competent DM and this team is transformed. Not solving that issue looks like is going to prove costly to both Ole and the club.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I think the issues we have are a bit more complex than that, the major problem we have is that each of our pivot players has issues that stop them from being adequate or be deployed securely as a single DM that plays alongside Pogba or DVB.
1. Matic has mobility issues and is slow with the ball making him susceptible to the press and meaning that he needs someone to be his legs whilst he sits picking off interceptions.
2. Fred has energy but isn't strong in the tackle and his short passing game is weak.
3. McTominay is a poor passer, slow across the ground, has poor positioning but he is energetic and can drive the ball forward.
Add this to the fact that the player who can solve our ball progression issues from deep, Pogba, doesn't have the defensive nous or the energy to press the ball you reach this scenario when Scot and Fred are the only duo the manager trusts. They cover for each other's weakness, they complement each other especially in a rear guard action. Problems arise when teams press us or sit deep and mark out Bruno meaning that more is asked of McFred on the ball.

...

I have NEVER bought into this argument. The ONLY reason 2 midfielders with defensive nous were ever needed was to cover the issues the flawed cb partnership of Maguire and Lindeloff constantly created. With it gone no one will convince me we need two players with defensive nous to be stationed infront of Varane and Maguire/Lindeloff.. A partnership that enables us to play a much higher line and eliminates ALL the previous issues that necessitated a double defensive nous shield. It's not necessary any more!

Also no one will convince me none of
either Matic, Fred, Mctominay can play the limited shield/ball winning role. Whilst the 8 and the 10 and most of the forwards engage in pressing in midfield and higher up the pitch.

Right now the only reason Ole has insisted on it is he is still spooked by what happened last season vs spurs. So before Varane and Maguire look truly impregnable, he will go to that partnership more often than he should.
But upon Rashford's return, Pogba's form and Van de beek's constant improvement. He will be forced to start using one defensive player in his double pivot. And we as a team will be the better for it.


As for Rice. Nothing about him convinces me he offers anything significantly superior to our current crop of DMs. TE way he struggled vs Italy's midfield just cemented it in my mind.

The only thing he offers better is positioning because he is a former cb. In my book that's not enough. For us to go out and buy one I'd want a player whose passing and vision is far superior to Mc Fred or Matic. In addition to being better in positioning, along with having about as much legs as Mc Fred do. Or more if possible.

 

[SirScholes]

I don't know whether we make more mistakes in possession than other teams but it seems we regularly make mistakes such as mishit/underhit/overhit passes, bad touches, players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.

Are these mistakes undermining any attempts at actually having a play style? While on the face of it it may seem we lack a style, our primary objective is to get the ball into the forward players as quickly as possible in order to create quick scoring opportunities. However, our play breaks down when it reaches the likes of Wan Bissaka who can't cross and plays short passes which allow the defenders time to get into position. Moreover, certain players shuck any sort of creative responsibility and just try to get it to players like Fernandes to do something even if he's not in a position to do so.

It seems to me that first we need to address these constant gaffes before we can execute any form of play style otherwise every move will just break down whenever attempt more than 2 passes in a row.

Furthermore, who do we blame for the amount of mistakes, the players or the coaches?

“players not moving into the right areas and lack of communication.”

These are coaching issues and also style of play issue

every team has to account for individual errors, the gk will make an error but you hope your def is there to help
A defender will score an own goal but your team scores 2 so it doesn’t matter

when every other top team in Europe attacks I can see the area of attack or potential goal opportunity

when we score I’m almost always surprised. I have no confidence in our attacks which is absolutely fecking mental when you look at the options

 

[croadyman]

The problem is people insist on compare plug and play style managers to managers who don't coach that way. Then pretend the plug and play ones are superior and the only ones with pattern of play

There are two types of coaches in football:

First are those who coach pre set pattern of plays aimed to be replicated on pitch again and again like they are drilled in military boot camp. In which players are only allowed to think in the final 3rd or some times not at all. With a every phase of play picked and prescribed by the coach. The system is usually king. It doesn't really on partnerships for consistency though they enhance it. But once it fails to break through there rarely is plan B. The likes of Klopp, Guardiola even Simeone and Conte fall into this category.

The second. Are those who pick a structure or frame work, in which they enable their players to express themselves and think through game situations as they arise, implementing the coaches preffered vision of attacking or defending. The likes of Zidane, Mourinho, even Fergie fall in this category. So does Ole.

They pick a template structure, for attacking and defending, then build partnerships and understanding in that structure, to enable players express and think for themselves. When it works it is very hard to stop. For their is always an alternative plan to a given solution that arises. However its fluidity is entirely reliant on the partnerships formed in the starting and back up units. Its one of the reasons for example United under SAF and even REAL under Zizou during his UCL 3 peat, most times got better and better the longer a season would go on. It disadvantage is if the partnerships are either imbalanced or taking to long to gel the team can look disjointed or directionless

In United's case right now we have a whole host of new partnerships forming. From defence, to midfield to attack. Till those partnerships soldify. We are going to be sputtering along. Lurching from the sublime to the ridiculous with our sheer quality of personnel stopping us sinking at worst, while laving us wondering ' why can't we be this good consistently' when it clicks. But the "period of pain' wont last long. I expect by the team early december rolls around. United will start looking more like a well oiled engine consistently

Yeah maybe if the penny drops and one of McFred is a squad player each game whilst Donny is a regular starter

 

[HailtotheKing]

It's simple stuff like if player a gets the ball, player b needs to move into space, player c runs a channel and player d goes wide to stretch the pitch. And then player a gets told which kind of pass to look for depending on where they are.

It's all simple but a coach still needs to teach them their vision.

It's easier for kids and social players, it's just teaching them how to pass the ball and play a one two.

If it's so simple, why are we so bad at it? Look at our players, half the time the move into spaces where they can't be passed to, as though they don't actually want the ball. Or they run into each others spaces. Our movement off the ball is appalling and has been for years. Remember all those zombie passing threads, even during Fergies later years I feel we had them. We are just not a pass and move side like Liverpool. We are a get the ball and run with it. That's why I think Ole doesn't really care about midfield. I fear a little for Sancho now because he's not the run and beat a man type winger, he's far more intricate and creative. I fear that like VDB, Ole is not gonna know what to do with him and will simply prefer the Greenwood style.

 

[Dominos]

I have NEVER bought into this argument. The ONLY reason 2 midfielders with defensive nous were ever needed was to cover the issues the flawed cb partnership of Maguire and Lindeloff constantly created. With it gone no one will convince me we need two players with defensive nous to be stationed infront of Varane and Maguire/Lindeloff.. A partnership that enables us to play a much higher line and eliminates ALL the previous issues that necessitated a double defensive nous shield. It's not necessary any more!

Also no one will convince me none of
either Matic, Fred, Mctominay can play the limited shield/ball winning role. Whilst the 8 and the 10 and most of the forwards engage in pressing in midfield and higher up the pitch.

Right now the only reason Ole has insisted on it is he is still spooked by what happened last season vs spurs. So before Varane and Maguire look truly impregnable, he will go to that partnership more often than he should.
But upon Rashford's return, Pogba's form and Van de beek's constant improvement. He will be forced to start using one defensive player in his double pivot. And we as a team will be the better for it.


As for Rice. Nothing about him convinces me he offers anything significantly superior to our current crop of DMs. TE way he struggled vs Italy's midfield just cemented it in my mind.

The only thing he offers better is positioning because he is a former cb. In my book that's not enough. For us to go out and buy one I'd want a player whose passing and vision is far superior to Mc Fred or Matic. In addition to being better in positioning, along with having about as much legs as Mc Fred do. Or more if possible.

What have you seen of our defence so far this season that suggests they need less protection than they're currently getting?

We have an xGA of over 1 per game, currently trending towards xGA of 43 league goals this season which is terrible.

If anything, our problem is the defence isn't getting any protection, even with McFred, even with with Matic, even with Pogba in midfield. Teams are ripping right through us with ease and having a free run at our defence.

The issue is we lose the ball in easy possession too often which gives opposition a lot of opportunities to hit us in transition. We don't do enough tactical fouls when we lose the ball. We don't press as a unit so teams play around us like we're not there. None of that Varane can solve by himself, and although he's not been poor individually by any means, he's clearly yet to transform our defence as we look all over the place.

I'm quite happy for one of Fred or Mctominay to be dropped as they're not providing the protection we ask for anyway, so may as well take the hit for someone who can pass a ball.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

What have you seen of our defence so far this season that suggests they need less protection than they're currently getting?

Raphael Varane. I dont care what statistics anyone brings. No one will convince me a balanced center back partnership needs more than one defensive screening shield.

All it needs is one who has been given proper instructions not to stray beyond 8 meters from the center backs. Be it in attacking or defensive situations. Period.

Currently especially Fred is so used to playing with a second defensive partner. He tends to chase the ball when his alone. Rather than simply hold his position. It can easily be instructed and coached out of him

 

[Dominos]

Raphael Varane. I dont care what statistics anyone brings. No one will convince me a balanced center back partnership needs more than one defensive screening shield.

All it needs is one who has been given proper instructions not to stray beyond 8 meters from the center backs. Be it in attacking or defensive situations. Period.

Currently especially Fred is so used to playing with a second defensive partner. He tends to chase the ball when his alone. Rather than simply hold his position. It can easily be instructed and coached out of him

Do you think we have defended well so far, with Varane in the team? Because just watching the games told me we're being ripped to shreds on the counter attack regularly, and the stats are just there back that up.

 

[VidaRed]

Everyone makes a mistake once in a while. However, that is not what is happening with us because quite a few players are making multiple mistakes in a game and which is because they simply don't know what to do in certain situations, they're basically improvising.

The odd mistake can be ignored but repeated mistakes is down to coaching and tactics.

 

[mav_9me]

Raphael Varane. I dont care what statistics anyone brings. No one will convince me a balanced center back partnership needs more than one defensive screening shield.

All it needs is one who has been given proper instructions not to stray beyond 8 meters from the center backs. Be it in attacking or defensive situations. Period.

Currently especially Fred is so used to playing with a second defensive partner. He tends to chase the ball when his alone. Rather than simply hold his position. It can easily be instructed and coached out of him

I dont think we are that well coached defensively, which arguably speaks to your point that a balanced CB partnership does not need more than one screener. Because we are still getting into these dangerous defensive scenarios, Ole will continue to use McFred imo.

 

[HailtotheKing]

I think the issues we have are a bit more complex than that, the major problem we have is that each of our pivot players has issues that stop them from being adequate or be deployed securely as a single DM that plays alongside Pogba or DVB.
1. Matic has mobility issues and is slow with the ball making him susceptible to the press and meaning that he needs someone to be his legs whilst he sits picking off interceptions.
2. Fred has energy but isn't strong in the tackle and his short passing game is weak.
3. McTominay is a poor passer, slow across the ground, has poor positioning but he is energetic and can drive the ball forward.
Add this to the fact that the player who can solve our ball progression issues from deep, Pogba, doesn't have the defensive nous or the energy to press the ball you reach this scenario when Scot and Fred are the only duo the manager trusts. They cover for each other's weakness, they complement each other especially in a rear guard action. Problems arise when teams press us or sit deep and mark out Bruno meaning that more is asked of McFred on the ball.

Signing Bissouma in the summer was the sensible decision but we failed to sell off enough players in time. What I don't understand is why did we sign both of Amad and Sancho, if last summer we knew we were going to buy Sancho why did we buy Amad, who we never had any intention of playing? Then this summer why did sign Sancho when Greenwood had elevated his game and Amad/Elanga had shown promise of being able to contribute?

Stick Rice, Bissouma or any competent DM and this team is transformed. Not solving that issue looks like is going to prove costly to both Ole and the club.

Think this pretty much sums things up for me. I still don’t agree that we need a two holding mids especially now we have the pace and composure of Varane. But this is how I see each of those players. We have a real problem right now and either it will be made worse or better by the return of Rashford. Because we need natural wingers on the wings not Pogba. With Rashford, Sancho or Greenwood on the wings, Pogba will have to go inside. So who do we partner him with? The ideal would be him playing in a 433 but I don’t think that suits Bruno. And 4231 creates a real issue with Pogba. If we had a strong CDM/playmaker that might work but I still feel he’s just too weak defensively. And if we then put him on the wing, we then have less natural width and the issue of Greenwood, Sancho, and Rashford competing for one spot. Which brings me to the question, why did we buy Sancho if it was so clearly not the priority position in our team? And also the realization that pogba is a real problem. On his day he’s absolutely unplayable but those days are so few and he really hampers the team.

Pogba and Matic work well together and so do Matic and Donny. But as everyone knows, Matic doesn’t have the legs, so if a team breaks on us we’re toast if we’re depending on Pogba.

Donny would need to be coached on positioning. He makes great runs but no one ever sees him. And then he’s caught out of position if we lose possession. Fred in theory should cover well for Pogba with the energy but his lack of control leaves us extremely vulnerable. So that leaves McTominay who has less vision but should be more reliable to defend against counters. It’s a real conundrum and I’m really curious to get your guys answers as the best way to fit Bruno and Pogba in the same team without us looking like Swiss cheese in the process.

Personally, I think if Donny were to be coached right positionally, he’d be our best option. He’s good under pressure, has a good touch and he’s smart. Plus he has energy and isn’t that bad at getting his foot in. I think he’s the best of what we’ve got right now. And the fact he’s been coached by Ajax suggests he should be able to be coached more easily. The question is do we have the coaching? Or is there a better formation you guys think could work better?

Obviously, we could still play pogba on the wing for some of the lesser games or we could play Donny and Matic. Would be a bit of. Mindfeck though for Donny to be defensive when next to Pogba and then attacking when next to Matic, so perhaps that’s not such a great idea

As you can tell, my head is spinning on this one!

 

[Adnan]

You just literally described two ways of playing in the final third. Individual quality obviously is there but you have to create the openings for the individual brillance. Whether that be creating an overload constantly to give your fullbacks room to cross or whether that is playing the ball from right to left at the edge of the box waiting for the space to open up or even whether your a team that doesnt aim to be patient and just goes for a shot anytime you are even remotely close to the box they are all different tactics that will be success totally depending on how good the player is. But regardless is still a tactic.

I agree with you, and there are coaches who use the overload tactic in the final third to create space for a designated player to expose vulnerabilities of the opposition in a 1v1 scenario.

 

[11101]

If it's so simple, why are we so bad at it? Look at our players, half the time the move into spaces where they can't be passed to, as though they don't actually want the ball. Or they run into each others spaces. Our movement off the ball is appalling and has been for years. Remember all those zombie passing threads, even during Fergies later years I feel we had them. We are just not a pass and move side like Liverpool. We are a get the ball and run with it. That's why I think Ole doesn't really care about midfield. I fear a little for Sancho now because he's not the run and beat a man type winger, he's far more intricate and creative. I fear that like VDB, Ole is not gonna know what to do with him and will simply prefer the Greenwood style.

We are bad at it because we have poor coaches with no experience, and at this level you're up against the very best people trying to stop you doing it.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I dont think we are that well coached defensively, which arguably speaks to your point that a balanced CB partnership does not need more than one screener. Because we are still getting into these dangerous defensive scenarios, Ole will continue to use McFred imo.

The issues is people just want quick fixes. Not long term solutions.

I personally don't buy the coaching claim because no amount of good coaching could fix the problems the Maguire -Linfeloff partnership caused. Just like what Stones - Otamendi. Yet they had 3 world class pivot players in Fernandinho, Rodri and Gundogan to protect them and Pep's coaching to boot.
Right now the issue is personnel:

1. Matic the best candidate to be stationed infeont of defence as a described earlier in the thread is too old to do it consistently weekly. His games have to be picked.

2. Fred who can. Has to learn the role to do it consistently. It can't happen over night. We have see him do it vs Sevilla in a europa semi final, so talk he 'can't" is wide of the mark. The issue is he is the kinda of player who slowly adjusts to new responsibility.

Best example is the wolves away. First half he kept galavanting out of positioning chasing the ball like he was partnered with Scott mctominay rather than a Pogba. Second half when it was clear he was instructed by the coaches to hold his positioning, his performance and the protection he offered improved dramatically. Eventually allowing Pogba to operate comfortably further forward to get us the win.
3. Mctominay another who can. Is just back from and injury and I don't believe has been deemed fit enough yet to be tried there alone since he has been back.

Rashford's absence and the fact Varane & Maguire are still gelling (evidenced by some of the individual gaffes Maguire has been making) has given the coaches room to delay having to split McFred. Because Pogba can operate wide left. But once he returns and Maguire/Lindeloff and varane get used to each other over the next few games. They wont have much choice.
First it will be fairly obvious the defence won't need over protecting once it starts to keep clean sheets. Second,
Pogba especially won't be bench able in current form. So they will have to make the single defensive player in the pivot work with their coaching. That is when they will really earn their money.

 

[izak]

We've got two players if I'm correct that are really bad in controlling a ball under pressure Fred and Wan Bissaka, those two hinder us playing out from the back quite a lot, I think we should stop playing out from the back, play it long into Ronnie or Cavani then focus on winning second balls high up the pitch, from there we got the quality to hurt any team.

The Aston Villa game showed how we struggled to play out from the back, against teams that press high up the pitch, we need to stop doing that especially in the 1st 60mins of games, we must use the orthodox approach of sending it long into our CF and Midfield to battle for the balls in opposition half, from there we can pick up sencond balls or press higher up the pitch forcing them into errors.

 

[mav_9me]

The issues is people just want quick fixes. Not long term solutions.

I personally don't buy the coaching claim because no amount of good coaching could fix the problems the Maguire -Linfeloff partnership caused. Just like what Stones - Otamendi. Yet they had 3 world class pivot players in Fernandinho, Rodri and Gundogan to protect them and Pep's coaching to boot.
Right now the issue is personnel:

1. Matic the best candidate to be stationed infeont of defence as a described earlier in the thread is too old to do it consistently weekly. His games have to be picked.

2. Fred who can. Has to learn the role to do it consistently. It can't happen over night. We have see him do it vs Sevilla in a europa semi final, so talk he 'can't" is wide of the mark. The issue is he is the kinda of player who slowly adjusts to new responsibility.

Best example is the wolves away. First half he kept galavanting out of positioning chasing the ball like he was partnered with Scott mctominay rather than a Pogba. Second half when it was clear he was instructed by the coaches to hold his positioning, his performance and the protection he offered improved dramatically. Eventually allowing Pogba to operate comfortably further forward to get us the win.
3. Mctominay another who can. Is just back from and injury and I don't believe has been deemed fit enough yet to be tried there alone since he has been back.

Rashford's absence and the fact Varane & Maguire are still gelling (evidenced by some of the individual gaffes Maguire has been making) has given the coaches room to delay having to split McFred. Because Pogba can operate wide left. But once he returns and Maguire/Lindeloff and varane get used to each other over the next few games. They wont have much choice.
First it will be fairly obvious the defence won't need over protecting once it starts to keep clean sheets. Second,
Pogba especially won't be bench able in current form. So they will have to make the single defensive player in the pivot work with their coaching. That is when they will really earn their money.

I agree with you that Maguire and Lindelof cannot be coached up.

Where I disagree with you is that while Maguire and Varane should in theory be secure enough to play with one holding mid, in reality it won't be because we as a team defense are not compact enough. Consequently Ole will continue with McFred.

Hopefully you are right and am wrong

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I agree with you that Maguire and Lindelof cannot be coached up.

Where I disagree with you is that while Maguire and Varane should in theory be secure enough to play with one holding mid, in reality it won't be because we as a team defense are not compact enough. Consequently Ole will continue with McFred.

Hopefully you are right and am wrong

Indeed

 

[horsechoker]

As much as Ole was tactically lacking, these mistakes still persist.

How can anyone deliver winning football if the players can't make simple passes?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

our carelessness and thoughtlessness in possession is now habitual. It started since LVG left and has gotten worse with every manager. We play at times like we have collective amnesia as to how a ball should be passed. I can no longer blame the coaches. these players need to look in the mirror.

Seasoned pros cant be that collectively bad at finding each other with simple passes

 

[AneRu]

I agree with you that Maguire and Lindelof cannot be coached up.

Where I disagree with you is that while Maguire and Varane should in theory be secure enough to play with one holding mid, in reality it won't be because we as a team defense are not compact enough. Consequently Ole will continue with McFred.

Hopefully you are right and am wrong

The problem is not how many DMs a team has but the issue is we defend or attack in a compartmentalized way, you can actually see the three divisions on the pitch whereas modern teams are more cohesive - they attack and defend as a team. Liverpool could play with one DM but they will never be open as United because they defend from the front, same with City you would see De Bruyne and Silva putting in bigger shifts than you would see from our DMs.

 

[devilish]

I can't understand why we are insisting with a 2 striker formation when we're struggling big time in controlling games

 

[RedStarUnited]

I can't understand why we are insisting with a 2 striker formation when we're struggling big time in controlling games

Adding another midfielder doesnt change the really bad parts of our game though does it?. Our players make bad passes/decisions under zero pressure.

 

[Jericholyte2]

It's clear that individual mistakes cost us hugely, but this is a combination of (historic and continued) poor coaching and lack of wise decision making. Look at the goal from yesterday, McT made the mistake of being drawn to the ball to defend the 1st ball when the two CBs were there already, whereas he should have been closer to the edge of the box to win the 2nd ball. That is a classic combination of poor individual awareness and poor coaching.

But then you look at the forwards; Sancho when he had Ronaldo to the left and Cavani to the right tries to go for goal from outside of the box, Rashford wastes a great position towards the end of the game and it bellows out for a goal kick, and in last games when we have chances to counter it's the simple passes that break and chances that we have.

We can have the most well-drilled formation / tactics / strategy in the world but if the players cannot make 5-10yd passed then we're screwed.

 

[OT1214]

You dont need elite level coaches to teach you how to pass to a nearby teammate. All we do these days is making poor passes one after the other. I think a lot of it has to do with complacency. Maybe some of our lot think they are far better than their counterparts.

 

[NZT-One]

The problem is not how many DMs a team has but the issue is we defend or attack in a compartmentalized way, you can actually see the three divisions on the pitch whereas modern teams are more cohesive - they attack and defend as a team. Liverpool could play with one DM but they will never be open as United because they defend from the front, same with City you would see De Bruyne and Silva putting in bigger shifts than you would see from our DMs.

Completely agree. Hence lots of fans wanting us to be a better team, play with (and for) each other, become more than the mere sume of its individual parts. We are quite a long way out still. One factor is coaching, one factor is individual players, one factor is the "roll the dice" recruiting we are doing since quite some time. The knot is tight, to open it will be difficult.

I can't understand why we are insisting with a 2 striker formation when we're struggling big time in controlling games

All that talk about the 4-2-2-2 being such an issue but lets face it - when we were playing 4-2-3-1, more often then not Bruno joined the forward line, making him more of a shadow striker than an actual part of midfield. The "wingers" we have, consisting of Rashford or Greenwood are strikers, playing mostly like strikers looking to get to end of chances and that is going to happen infield. Sancho is some sort of wide playmaker who does his best work when coming centrally. We had issues with width in that formation for ages, the problems just continue.

Apart from that: For the game yesterday - I agree, we should have changed formation midgame reacting to Wolves setup.

 

[Houdini]

It's the mentality, lack of motivation, confidance and focus on the game. The players are underperforming massively.

 

[Borys]

Adding another midfielder doesnt change the really bad parts of our game though does it?. Our players make bad passes/decisions under zero pressure.

Is that really the case though? I see players on the ball with no passing options, especially short distance. We just seem to be so stretched all the time.
Because we always pass it mid-long, when player receives the pass he's always under big pressure from the opponent. It's just very easy to stop us from playing.
Adding another midfielder will result in more bodies in midfield rather than forward. I thought we should've done this months ago, seems like all the managers disagree and the plan is to play 3 strikers no matter what.

 

[Bestietom]

I am thinking on the same lines as Shaw. There is "no togetherness" and this is the biggest problem a club can have.
RR and his staff need to get ruthless and get rid of the culprits.
A couple of new midfielders and a forward would help also.

 

[arnie_ni]

Apart from that: For the game yesterday - I agree, we should have changed formation midgame reacting to Wolves setup.

We did change. We went 5 at the back

 

[RedStarUnited]

Is that really the case though? I see players on the ball with no passing options, especially short distance. We just seem to be so stretched all the time.
Because we always pass it mid-long, when player receives the pass he's always under big pressure from the opponent. It's just very easy to stop us from playing.
Adding another midfielder will result in more bodies in midfield rather than forward. I thought we should've done this months ago, seems like all the managers disagree and the plan is to play 3 strikers no matter what.

YOu think this is a pressure position?

AWB over hits this

In this situation...Cavani shoots when a simple pass to Greenwood and he can swear it to someone for a tap in.

 

[devilish]

Adding another midfielder doesnt change the really bad parts of our game though does it?. Our players make bad passes/decisions under zero pressure.

The last time we used 4-4-2, Keane was in his prime and we had a young Scholes. I wouldn't exactly call that a 4-4-2 as Beckham was not a conventional winger but more of a very hardworking right sided midfielder. Anyway when Keane started showing signs of wear and tear, we bought Veron in and we reverted to a 4-4-1-1 system. Unfortunately that wasn't successful and United would struggle up until we brought Carrick in.

SAF could usually rely on a fantastic and super motivated side yet he always made sure that his side was well balanced. When Ronaldo played we usually placed Park on the other side + we played Rooney-Tevez to compensate. When Berbatov was introduced, we weakened the balance and our results suffered because of that.

United have alot of problems. The board is clueless, many players are here for the wrong reasons and I fear that some players can't even be dropped. However this 4-2-2-2 nonsense won't work with this current squad especially since its more of a 4-2-4 system. That's a system that not even Keane-Scholes in their very prime could support despite having a better defence to rely upon.

If I was the manager then I'd revert to a more conservative system. I would go with DGG in goal, a defence made up of Dalot, Maguire/Jones/Bailly/Lindelof (they are all shit anyway) + Varane and Shaw as LB. In midfield I'd go with Matic, McT as B2B and Bruno as AMC (with less licence to go forward), Telles should play on the left which would allow Greenwood on the right and Ronaldo/Cavani upfront. If Bruno doesn't pass the ball correctly then VDB comes in. Before we run, lets relearn to walk first.