Did Rooney fulfill his potential?

Ronaldo went on to score more goals for Real and Portugal without Rooney.
You can't compare apples with pears. Different time, different team, different league. What Messi and Ronaldo did was ridiculous, them 4 or 5 years they consistently scored 50 plus.

Rooney went on to won 2 more league titles after Ronaldo left, in 3 years. Time moves on, means nothing. The point on Rooney will always be the same. He's like marmite, you either dont rate him, or you did at some point of his career.
 
He was never capable of that, that's why he failed the transition to central midfield. He had a great passing range but that wasn't enough.

I didn't think he was necessarily bad on the ball in midfield. But I was think more dictating the tempo of the attack at his best.
 
I'm sad that a lot of fans don't rate him in hindsight. You don't become club top scorer without fulfilling your potential.
 
I don't think he did. He had a lot of general fitness issues and didn't have the lifestyle discipline of someone like Ronaldo to overcome them.

The fact he reached such a high level and achieved what he did anyway is a testament to how much ability he had. I don't think he could ever have reached Ronaldo/Messi levels, but when you think how good he was when he was at peak fitness, and imagine if that had been more consistent, he could have been quite easily the best of the rest.

I do think he was vastly under appreciated though, which is a different thing. It's not just the all time top scorer thing which is a pretty big deal, it's the number of titles and vital games where his contribution made a vital difference. He had that one year where he basically dragged us to a league title and the CL final despite the fact he couldn't get himself in any kind of shape until after Christmas, which to be honest kind of summed up both what was so good about him and what tended to hold him back.
 
I didn't think he was necessarily bad on the ball in midfield. But I was think more dictating the tempo of the attack at his best.
Oh, he was not bad on the ball at all, but he wasn’t able to dictate the tempo. Pogba isn’t really able to dictate the tempo, for example, and he’s a brilliant passer. Dictating the tempo is a very special ability that only a few players possess — and being able to make great cross-field passes doesn’t necessarily mean that you have it.
 
He became United's and England's all time top scorer, so I would say yes. Could he have been even better had he given more focus to his fitness and lifestyle? Possibly, but on the basis of what he did achieve it's tough to say he didn't live up to his potential.
 
I'll always remember the sky cameras aboard the united train to london for the 2011 CL final, there was Rooney sitting on the train eating a packet of crisps and drinking a can of red bull. I doubt Messi was having a similar meal on his way over from Barcelona.
Messi ate tons of junk food, mostly pizza and he was the only one who was allowed to drink Pepsi in club’s canteen after Pep banned all soda drinks from it (Messi was still casually coming in and drinking it anyway and turned out he could get away with it). He only changed his diet closer to 2014/15, I think (after he had a few incidents with vomiting during and after the game and hired a personal nutritionist).
 
I think in club career, yes.

Unfortunately, Rooney's best tournament with England ended up being Euro 2004. He often would play very well in friendlies and qualyfing matches, but in the big tournaments itself, not so much...

I do wonder if Harry Kane will end up being considered as having a better career than Rooney when he's done
 
I think in club career, yes.

Unfortunately, Rooney's best tournament with England ended up being Euro 2004. He often would play very well in friendlies and qualyfing matches, but in the big tournaments itself, not so much...

I do wonder if Harry Kane will end up being considered as having a better career than Rooney when he's done
Unlikely unless he leaves Spurs.
 
Absolutely... He is a legend but we should have got rid of him by 2012-2013 snd should not have offered him that 6 years contract.
 
I don't think he did. He had a lot of general fitness issues and didn't have the lifestyle discipline of someone like Ronaldo to overcome them.

The fact he reached such a high level and achieved what he did anyway is a testament to how much ability he had. I don't think he could ever have reached Ronaldo/Messi levels, but when you think how good he was when he was at peak fitness, and imagine if that had been more consistent, he could have been quite easily the best of the rest.

I do think he was vastly under appreciated though, which is a different thing. It's not just the all time top scorer thing which is a pretty big deal, it's the number of titles and vital games where his contribution made a vital difference. He had that one year where he basically dragged us to a league title and the CL final despite the fact he couldn't get himself in any kind of shape until after Christmas, which to be honest kind of summed up both what was so good about him and what tended to hold him back.
For a very brief time, probably between January and April 2010, he absolutely was at the level of Ronaldo and Messi. That was before the injury he suffered against Bayern, and before Ronaldo and Messi really became the unreal goal machines they have been for the past decade.

However, I believe the best form of Rooney's career came in the following season. Like you said, in 2011, he was unstoppable. He truly had everything in his game, and he singlehandedly pushed us to the title and Champions League Final (a match in which he was one of the very few players we had that showed up).

Overall, he had an amazing career, but probably did not live up to his incredible potential, which as others have said, is just a testament to how gifted Rooney was.
 
I'd say no.

He was a great player, but he didn't take the step up to the next level that I (and most people) expected him to do in his early days. Even if he couldn't keep up with Messi and Ronaldo (no shame in that), he still should have been consistently up there with the best of the rest if not in outright third place. Instead there was probably only one season that he was even the best in England. A great player who was very consistent for about eight years, but he could have been even better IMO.
 
Leading scorer all time for United
Leading scorer all time for England
One of only 2 men to score over 200 goals in the premier league
More caps than any other England player

We should all be so lucky to miss by so much in fulfilling our potential.

You want to discuss untapped potential, start the conversation with Anthony Martial.
 
You can't compare apples with pears. Different time, different team, different league. What Messi and Ronaldo did was ridiculous, them 4 or 5 years they consistently scored 50 plus.

Rooney went on to won 2 more league titles after Ronaldo left, in 3 years. Time moves on, means nothing. The point on Rooney will always be the same. He's like marmite, you either dont rate him, or you did at some point of his career.

You said that Ronaldo needed Rooney to score the goals he scored, his record for Portugal alone suggests he really didn’t. Factor in the insane record for Madrid and there’s enough proof to suggest it was t the case.

Rooney was a great player, like Keane, Scholes, Giggs Etc. He just wasn’t in that level above like Best and Ronaldo, which I believe is where the discussion comes from. He was overhyped as something he wasn’t when he was younger. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t great. He’s up there with the true greats who ever played for United.
 
I still think of the time he was targeted and nobbled by Bayern. I think he would have taken us to the European Cup that season.
 
I'm harping on but imagine this Rooney with Tevez and Ronaldo or van Persie:


When you look back on the 11/12 & then the 12/13 seasons, his physical decline is very apparent.
 
I don't think he did. He had a lot of general fitness issues and didn't have the lifestyle discipline of someone like Ronaldo to overcome them.

The fact he reached such a high level and achieved what he did anyway is a testament to how much ability he had. I don't think he could ever have reached Ronaldo/Messi levels, but when you think how good he was when he was at peak fitness, and imagine if that had been more consistent, he could have been quite easily the best of the rest.

I do think he was vastly under appreciated though, which is a different thing. It's not just the all time top scorer thing which is a pretty big deal, it's the number of titles and vital games where his contribution made a vital difference. He had that one year where he basically dragged us to a league title and the CL final despite the fact he couldn't get himself in any kind of shape until after Christmas, which to be honest kind of summed up both what was so good about him and what tended to hold him back.

That explains it nicely. When you think of that raw and powerful 18 year old....he just didnt fulfil that potential despite the fact that he was still awesome for us.

Great great player and most definitely underappreciated.
 
The ‘Rooney was never the same player after his early days’ line is getting trotted out a lot, as usual, so I thought I’d look at the stats. Now, there's more to being a great player than scoring or creating goals, but we can't measure ineffable notions of quality, whereas we can measure his goals and assists. So, here's some charts focusing on ‘minutes per goal contribution’ (very much the coming man of football nerdology) over the years.

whiVRCK.png

MGIvwLr.png


I'd say Wayne Rooney was great for five years in a supporting role, (mostly) exceptional for the next five as (mostly) the main man, and then LVG ruined his career. I'm being facetious, and he was always gonna decline early, but just look at that pretty much overnight collapse.

Did he reach his 'potential'? feck knows, his ceiling was probably higher if he’d not had so very many minor injuries, but outside of George Best nobody’s ever given the club a decade like Rooney’s pre-LVG years.
 
I'm harping on but imagine this Rooney with Tevez and Ronaldo or van Persie:


When you look back on the 11/12 & then the 12/13 seasons, his physical decline is very apparent.

Ah yes, Anderson starring at Szczesny at 3:43. He helped Rooney's decline.
 
Record goal scorer for a major club
Serial PL winner
CL win + 2 finals
Statistically he fulfilled his potential in my opinion.

Why is it still something debated?
1. Multiple instances of blips throughout his career
2. Discipline to stay fit
3. Comparison with other players he played with - eg. Ruud, Ronaldo, RVP, etc. all of whom were goal scoring machines
4. Last 3 seasons and what he was paid for those 3 years

All said, I would be happy if we find the 'next' Rooney and spend 100m to sign him. 20+ goals guaranteed every season for a decade.
 
Record goal scorer for a major club
Serial PL winner
CL win + 2 finals
Statistically he fulfilled his potential in my opinion.

Why is it still something debated?
1. Multiple instances of blips throughout his career
2. Discipline to stay fit
3. Comparison with other players he played with - eg. Ruud, Ronaldo, RVP, etc. all of whom were goal scoring machines
4. Last 3 seasons and what he was paid for those 3 years

All said, I would be happy if we find the 'next' Rooney and spend 100m to sign him. 20+ goals guaranteed every season for a decade.

No doubt about any of that, but the question here isn't whether Rooney was greatest, among the greatest British footballers ever, but whether he fulfilled his potential.

One could argue both sides, but for me it's clear Rooney was so fantastic as a young player that the decline in his performances during what should have been his peak years strongly suggest that his potential was not fulfilled. Or perhaps to put a finer point on it, that his peak came way too early in his career and that he drifted into a premature decline --- in light of what we all saw his potential to be.

Still, a club and country legend. Rooney may take a bow.
 
If so, when?

I think ^ that's where opinions split - the timing. Although it wouldn't surprise me if there are football fans that say he didn't fulfilled his potential, which I may agree in someway.

Just seen this good video and it asked one good question "Did he truly fulfill his potential?". I don't think the vid answer their own question directly though.


OPinion
In my opinion, he did for 4 seasons.
Season 06/07 is when he fulfilled his potential, and he carried it on until arguably season 09/10.

Why?
Seasons after 06/07, I don't see any aspects of his game that are improving. None. That season 16/17 is the final season where Rooney showed "newer" abilities especially in the passing and temperament departments. I don't see any improvements anymore from him. After 09/10, I notice a decline in his physical abilities, then his all around football abilities too gradually declining albeit at a slow rate. SAF turning him into more of a CF role or stay higher up the field with a shift in system to compensate that are the right decisions to "maintain" Wayne's goal scoring abilities and getting the best out of him overall as he continues to decline.

Many will argued his goal-scoring ability and other abilities in the box namely hold-up, post-play, heading, poaching and fox in the box improved in 09/10, but I say that's a matter of switching into a roles that necessitates Rooney to do more of those than Wayne's incapability in doing any of that with the top qualities he showcased in that season. In simple words, he can already do all of those before, but he's playing different roles so it's rare to see him do those.

The unique thing about Rooney is how he's already too good when he breakthrough into Everton's first team and consequently quickly becoming a key starting 11 for both England NT but more so with us Manchester United. Below are how he is since the very start. He's ridiculously good this early before he's 20, it's freaky. Special player in a way.

Strengths
1. Physical abilities - already maximum top level. It's freaky. All-around have everything - fitness, strength, pace, speed, agility, aggression and acrobatics.

2. Football intelligence - a natural of the game. Instinct-based type. Almost always, his decisions makings (if he's in the right temper) is always right. He more often than not choose the right options - to pass or not, to shoot or not, right time to dribbles or not, etc. Rooney's natural ability to fit in all kinds of tactics (yes even LVG's philosophy) almost like a glove and to play comaptibly with any players are just impressively a proof of his natural football instinct intelligence. Note that it's not street-smart, you know the dark arts of football which Rooney is bad at using each time he tried.

3. Team-player - he's an extreme team player. It's rare for someone of his abilities to be this willing to sacrifice himself for the team and actually he doesn't mind playing "second fiddle" to other teammates, as long as that #1 player is a "worthy star player" eg. RVN, CR7, Owen and Zlatan, basically players he respect and regarded as that. Contrast this to players like Berbatov and RVP, I don't think Rooney is totally happy, though that's just speculations. From what I see, the way he play is totally different between the two categories. I'm not including striker partners whom he enjoy playing with here mind eg. Saha and Tevez.

4. Football abilities - all-around he's almost complete already, high levels, just need slight more improvements in few aspects. This is the major reason along with his top physical abilitiesHe literally can do everything, just need more games to get the experiences to improve those. I don't think he needs any coaching in any of the stated four aspects at all, unless you count anger management as coaching.

5. Mentality - winner, fighter and strong challenger. Just need a bit of maturity and control in temperament, right channels of emotions. I think this is why he's willing to listen well to top coaches and follow their instructions to the tee, because he's a winner, along with strong awareness of good football tactics when he sees his manager as top coaches. I think it's just with Moyes where he sort of "rebel" in a way he half-hearted follow the shit crossings after crossings instructions. This is why I felt a potential of Rooney improving in this aspect because he's willing to make the step-up early on and hungry enough to change career in a good career projectory that he made the step-up to work with SAF, and listen instead of complaining and rebel. I believe there are other offers at that time right?

Weaknesses
1. Temperament - as we know, he tends to let emotions gets in the way, and opposing team use this, they like to riled him up and before it often works, refs too had no choice but to book him. Working with SAF is the right choice and perfect next step for his career.

2. Maturity & Discipline - similarly, we know how Rooney were, on and off the pitch. This put his career and reputations at risk, thus even the treatment he got when on the field eg. refs tend to book him after any challenges, etc. He became much much more mature thankfully from working with SAF who insist on it.

3. Passing - I don't rate his all-around passing abilities from the start. There are many flaws. His long pass and cross are good enough but still in a way rusty and can be refined and improved. Thankfully he did later on, quickly too. Seeing Scholes performing it everyday in training is a sight to behold.

So what did all those show?
And that's it. Very few weaknesses from the very start and he's already that good. Need just a good refinement which only SAF can do, doubt other manager can. The different roles he play affected his goal-scoring statistics. If his roles is to play as the main goalscorer and play more inside the box instead of spending time moving deeper to help deeper, then for sure his goals will already be higher than how it is now. He started as a free roaming SS who literally go anywhere on the pitch. When performing that roles early on, I can already see his abilities in heading, poaching, goal-scoring instinct, hold up play, etc. It's all already there. He's just not doing it more, preferring to be in the build up and combative actions elsewhere than focus to remain in the box.

Stats and Contexts?
Note that Statistics doesn't always tell the whole stories. That's the limitations of stats, without contexts., it's laughably weak. Consider the different of roles he played earlier and later. It's starkly different and the stats backed those up.

Starting season 07/08, his injuries get worse and worse, thus his body started to get affected leading to first his quick declining physical abilities alongside gradual slow decline of overall football abilities. His goal-scoring abilities albeit declining is still at top level, thus the stats showed all that when his roles are more into staying up and score, but we know it gets worse in 16/17 onwards and at the top level, its no longer enough. His natural instinct-type football intelligence does maintained until now, hence he still able to follow and fit in well with the different tactics and maintain making good decisions makings and positioning, while still showing natural goal-scoring instincts. The biggest problem is at the top level, his physical abilities is not enough to match his natural goals instinct. He can only show it a lower levels nowadays isn't it.

Conclusion?
He first fulfilled his potential in season 06/07, and remain in his peak best until 09/10.

But you may define "potential" differently. I see it as a player maximum best possible or projected/forecasted improvements in total sum of football abilities (physical, intelligence, technical, tactical, etc), temperament and mentality. And no doubt Rooney max all three main categories of that quickly. Cristiano Ronaldo for me exceeded his potential in contrast.

Conclusion, the local circus is missing a clown, you
 
He would have been a different player had he been played up top his whole career. He could have been a 30 goal a season striker every year, but his incredible industry meant he was even more useful to the team playing as a trequartista, doing the work of both midfielder and striker. He was a big part of the reason why our defense was so good, but i can't help but feel badly for him that he didn't get the kind of goal tally he could have, and thus he gets underrated.
 
This time never existed....Rooney was a great player. Their were many more who didn’t play for United and England who were equally as good and more than 1-2 who were better. Scholes was better for a start.

stop.
 
I wonder how his career would have been remembered if the whole asking for City moment didnt happen.

I think this brushing his good career under the carpet that also seems to happen towards the end of his career would have been altered.
 
He never reached his potential IMO. He was such an exciting player when he had that raw explosiveness and passion in him early in his career. As that gradually faded, he developed a knack for scoring goals, but in all honesty I thought he greatly benefitted from the system he was playing in. I don’t think he really had the dedication, unlike, say, Ronaldo.

A great player for us, but for me he could’ve gone on to be so much more.
 
aw does it offend you that Scholes was better?

Better at what? Scholes is one of the best midfielders of all time and one of the most intelligent at reading the game.. but better overall than rooney? Not even close.
 
Exactly what i said previous page, i was a big of a young Wayne Rooney as anyone.

But as you said yourself, the guy was finished after 25/26 (or on the decline) so you have to call that a bit of a waste and with that (the title of this thread), never fulfilled his potential.

The guy was only 34 at the start of the season, yet he's playing in the Championship, played in MLS 2 seasons before that and Everton season before that and even for United (and England), we stuck with him for too long.

He's younger than Ronaldo and the Ronaldo is still one of the best players in the world, Rooney should be, 34/35 is nothing nowadays, Giggs played until he was 40, Scholes came out of retirement at 39.
Fair point but he also started at 16, 4 years earlier than Giggs and Scholes. I think his body had fully developed by time he was 16.
 
He was more talented than Ronaldo when we signed him, so no, I don’t think he lived up to his potential. Not a criticism as he’s one of my favourite players ever, but could have been even better. injuries and fitness issues let him down
 
Failed, although that is because his potential was incredible.

To do this he needed to avoid the foot injuries (they started in 2004 Euros) and stop the general injuries he regularly had. He would have exceptional form, be rubbish for a while when he came back then be immense. This would have kept his explosiveness on a more consistent level and then when he aged a bit and had a better footballing brain then wow, what a player he would have been.
 
I remember Croatia - England game in Euros 2004 and how he destroyed us. He was electric. Never fulfilled promise he showed there and of course at United when he came. He actually had a great career so who knows what would have happened if he fullfilled his potential.

He started too early, was one of those players like Raul with who it seems he was there forever when he was just 22, 23. That plus injuries and that he wasn't dedicated as much as he should have been.
 
He was more talented than Ronaldo when we signed him, so no, I don’t think he lived up to his potential. Not a criticism as he’s one of my favourite players ever, but could have been even better. injuries and fitness issues let him down

He wasn’t. He was more mature. He never had Ronaldos ability.
 
Better at what? Scholes is one of the best midfielders of all time and one of the most intelligent at reading the game.. but better overall than rooney? Not even close.

Better at football, first touch, passing, controlling the game, playing one touch football. Rooney was a better forward. Wow if you think it wasn’t close. Listen to united players when asked who’s the best player they’ve ever played with. Not many say Rooney. Usually Scholes and Ronaldo. Scholes gets more nods than Ronaldo. Giggs gets a few too.
 
Rooney's emergence to the scene was quite eye-catching but for me it wasn't on the same level of Ronaldo or Messi. I remember watching the game on eurosport when it was the first time I saw Ronaldo playing and he literally destroyed us, the things he was doing on the field, the dribbling, the technique, the flair was just unique, you just feel you are witnessing something great about to happen. For me Rooney didn't have the same wow-effect but still was brilliant, an exciting english talent, probably the most exciting back then after Owen in terms of breakthrough, so his ceiling would have been to become a world-class player, which I think he quite did given all the numbers and records he holds for both our club and England. Rooney also excelled in the supporting role, pretty much to his own demise, if he had been more selfish about being a striker rather than all-around player, he would have still played at big clubs at this age I think. I look at how Ibra came to the club and was fit for his age, if only Rooney managed himself better, still, for me he is a legend and a truly world-class player who fulfilled his potential in an era where we witnessed the brilliance of Ronaldo and Messi...
 
He did like any player of his caliber would have done.

But how right was he to question the board and the management when he did. He was definitely onto something. And people hated him for that.
 
He did like any player of his caliber would have done.

But how right was he to question the board and the management when he did. He was definitely onto something. And people hated him for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/oct/20/wayne-rooney-manchester-united

The 24-year-old expressed surprise at his manager's remarks and confirmed he wanted a transfer as he expressed concern at the direction the United are heading in under the ownership of the Glazers.
"I met with David Gill [United's chief executive] last week and he did not give me any of the assurances I was seeking about the future squad," Rooney said. "I then told him that I would not be signing a new contract.


"I was interested to hear what Sir Alex had to say yesterday and surprised by some of it. It is absolutely true, as he said, that my agent and I have had a number of meetings with the club about a new contract. During those meetings in August I asked for assurances about the continued ability of the club to attract the top players in the world.

"I have never had anything but complete respect for MUFC. How could I not have done given its fantastic history and especially the last six years in which I have been lucky to play a part?

"For me its all about winning trophies – as the club has always done under Sir Alex. Because of that I think the questions I was asking were justified.

"Despite recent difficulties, I know I will always owe Sir Alex Ferguson a huge debt. He is a great manager and mentor who has helped and supported me from the day he signed me from Everton when I was only 18.

"For Manchester United's sake I wish he could go on forever because he's a one‑off and a genius."

Can see it both ways.. we certainly dropped a few levels after Tevez/Ronaldo leaving...
 
Really depends on what you feel his potential was. The fact that that he rarely played as a straight out nr 9 made him a less prolific goal scorer on the other hand he contritubed massively to the overall team play. I don't think his potential was quite on R9 lvl when they were both young so I'd say he fulfilled his potential at least on club level. He won everything there was to win and all time top goal scorer for club and country. Apart from longevity I'd say he kind fulfilled him potential silimar to Giggs who was hyped as the next George Best but never manged to be the best player in the world but won everything at club lvl and was very often the best in the world in his position or one of the best.