Who is going to make long term decisions from the summer onwards, same people I am guessing
Decision not to buy a DM in January
- Thread starter KeanoMagicHat
- Start date
But can we afford to be that picky about players? It's not like we are buying good players when we do that. What are we waiting for, to spend £100m on Rice? There are probably 10-15 midfielders that were semi-available that would be better than McTominay.
Well the decision makers at first team level on the football side have always been the managers, until possibly now. And those managers have also had the benefit of being allowed their personal recruitment staff by the club.
So the decision makers are going to be different this time, because the 80 or so people working on the recruitment side of the club, will have a figurehead representing them at first team level. And that's something that's never happened before.
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But we could have. RR identified 3-4 gettable players the dearest being 50 mill and the cheapest 5 mill in price. That's why we are where we are now. Even top 4 is out of our hands
That's it in a nutshell. We could have signed cheapish midfielders, but the club just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best and its backfired. We could have bid for Zakaria who went for 5 mill and would have been a significant upgrade on what we have.
I could identify a lot more than 3-4 gettable players. Probably not the ones the club want though. And this mathematics that if we don’t make the top 4 it is because we didn’t sign a defensive midfielder in January is questionable at best.
Have a look how many premier teams bought players in January. You are talking nonsense.
Are you new to football?
Relegation fodder always add ‘bodies’ in January. Better teams less often. We have done so ourselves before, but do not every January, which is the same for every single decent side. This isn’t a computer game. ‘We could have bought Zakaria’. Yea, I suspect we would have if we fecking wanted t buy Zakaria. Clearly we don’t, so would not buy him whether it be January or July.
City and Liverpool bought players. Have you even looked?
So signing a player in January isn’t looking after the medium to long term future of the club.? How did Evra & Vidic get on again?
You’ll have to explain the use of that post there as I’m not sure why signing a player in the Winter window as opposed to a Summer one is about getting a result against ‘Team X’ & not about having an actual plan in place. I agree with the post btw, just not sure what you think it’s giving here.
It was a genuine question. I’m not sure where ‘super-being technical directors’ comes into this as I didn’t say they should pick the tactics. . . Might as well ask what a managers for? Not really, no.
Back to the subject though, we’ve an assembly of misfits with an impending Summer full of departures & I can’t wait for the ‘can only do so much in one window’ narrative when we do the usual 2-3 signings although we negated the first window of the year. If the club had a recent history of knowing what they’re doing in the market then fine but perhaps they should try a few different things.
Of your 3 examples, Fernandes I’ll give you. Sanchez was hours away from City, not a real long term target & I’m not even going to address Igahlo. 1 out of 3 ain’t bad though, also did we have a ‘Technical Director’ when these 3 were bought or have you just picked out the few transfers you can mention. We might as well praise our Technical Director for signing Evra & Vidic with that reach.
Summer/Winter the “outrage” is the inactivity on the fringes for me, no one’s saying we should be out signing a Haaland in January. Though I believe Dortmund did just that when he chose them ahead of us.
The clubs public stance is that Rangnick will advice John Murtough on the recruitment of the next manager, and offer his knowledge of the game to John Murtough.
There is no word from the club that Rangnick is intended for any role in recruiting players or even advice the next manager on player recruitment. His consultant role is that of an advisor to the DOF.
City and Liverpool bought players. Have you even looked?
Of course I haven’t ‘looked’. I’ve been watching football for decades, I don’t need to ‘look’ to understand the difference between the two markets.
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‘I’ll try and simplify m. The club is likely to have a list of players they would like to join over the next however long. If we had the opportunity to buy Declan Rice for £60m in January, we’d have likely bought him. We are clearly not buying players because we would prefer them to first see Manchester in the sunshine rather than the cold. What you are all suggesting is that we buy whatever player is available in January windows, simply because the opportunity is there to buy ‘a player’. Which, as this forum likes to put it, is the actions of a ‘terribly run club’.
The club could not care less whether it is January or July. They care about the players they bring in. As is common sense. This is not new in football, and is adopted by almost every big club, everywhere, every year. It will be the same next year. I am confident we will not be trying to sign Jude Bellingham in January. Does that mean we should just say feck Bellingham and bring in Thomas Delaney instead?
Couldn't get the first choice. Forget about 2nd, 3rd or even 4th choice. Dump the season. Sacrifice top 4. The end.
Or maybe just go and get the first choice in a few months time
And can we stop this bollocks that signing our second or third or fourth choice midfielder in January secures us the top 4 and silverware or something? You would think we have had to play Bailly and Jones in midfield due to shortage. A sensible club does not buy players for a 6 month objective. It’s a ridiculous suggestion, and one that everyone here knows is a ridiculous suggestion.
Evra and Vidic were players that would've been primary targets in the Summer window as well, hence the club pushed forward and signed them at the earliest opportunity, due to the opportunity presenting itself in January. Liverpool signed Van Dijk and Diaz in January, because both were long term targets and not panic buys. You don't buy players in January if those players aren't also targets in the summer window.
So the mid to long-term planning is simple, if your primary targets are available to purchase in January, then go ahead. If they aren't, it's best not to panic and add more mediocrity to the squad. This is what all well run clubs adhere to and hence sign players that fit into their way of playing the game, which includes the appointment of a head coach.
Liverpool had long been linked with Diaz and only moved when it looked like Spurs would agree a deal for him.
It doesnt matter, our club will buy the wrong one anyways.
We are now going into a transfer window, with Arnold making the shots. He will decide who we are going for and the manager who comes in will have nothing to say. We will buy one for 50-80 mill and he will not fit the place style of the manager coming in.
Buying players without a fundation or with a fundation laid be the current board/staff will get us nowhere.
We are now going into a transfer window, with Arnold making the shots. He will decide who we are going for and the manager who comes in will have nothing to say. We will buy one for 50-80 mill and he will not fit the place style of the manager coming in.
Buying players without a fundation or with a fundation laid be the current board/staff will get us nowhere.
Our biggest mistake is VDB transfer. It prevents us sign a new midfielder last summer.
In no way am I suggesting we buy ‘whatever player’ in January, another false argument. Bellingham, Delaney -Who suggests we go for the latter? Oh yea not me again. Rice for £60mil in January? I swear I said a Haaland level player aka ‘big money’ signing isn’t likely in January. Quit telling people what they suggest & read what’s written, you’ve just concocted 2 paragraphs based on an argument I’m certainly not posing.
So back to the point. There are finite opportunities to buy players, 2 transfer windows to be exact. We are on the verge of multiple players leaving in the Summer & due to a dodgy World Cup schedule will have even less time to sign players; couple that with a new manager & we are already up against it in a constrained period. The trouble with the scenario you pose is that it operates in a perfect scenario where people who have shown little ability to do much else than throw good money after bad suddenly know how to work the transfer market effectively. How many RBs were scouted before signing AWB & you’re getting precious because I question the clubs recruitment capabilities. January feels like a missed opportunity as good players are available & we’ve bereft of good players.
I’m a little confused on your issue as what you’re saying are things I agree with. I don’t want us to sign just any player in January [see above]. Well run clubs don’t have 2 no.9s in their mid-to-late 30s. Well run clubs don’t spend £80mil on Maguire. Well run clubs don’t keep hold of Lingard for him to leave on a free when they could have gotten a decent transfer fee.
If we were a big signing & a few tweaks away I could understand the inactivity but honestly given the Summer we’re headed towards it feels like a missed opportunity. If not one primary target in the many holes we have in our squad was gettable in January we’re in for a long [but short] Summer. I hope to be proven wrong but when the next Winter window is already a write off with the World Cup I’m not sure where the faith in the medium to long term strategists comes from. Transfers don’t always just present themselves, no one wants us to just sign dross, I just want pro-action.
Fred is starting to look like a midfielder that could do well for the likes of Tottenham, Brentford, Leeds, Norwich, Watford and Burnley.
Mctominay is still Norwich or championship mid table team standard.
Mctominay is still Norwich or championship mid table team standard.
In the simplest of terms, we won’t buy a player that we do not want to play for Manchester United just because his team is willing to sell him in January. If the ones we want are not available, literally, the only options we have are to wait or to buy a player that we do not want.
If the one we want is a Rice level player, or Rice himself even, then we won’t buy a Thomas Delaney in January because West Ham won’t sell Rice in January. So with that all considered, the only complaint here can be that the club are not interested in the same players some fans online want them to be interested in. As demonstrated, we have purchased players in January when the opportunity presents. However, if you list pretty much every player we have added in the summer in the last however many years - none of them are players we’d have been able to sign from their clubs mid-season instead. Which is why we do our business then. As I’m sure you know to be honest.
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In the simplest terms, if we can’t improve on what we have then the players ‘we want’ to play for us are the issue. We’re not having the same conversation at this point because in your worth having isn’t available despite better players going elsewhere every transfer window.
We’ve come a long way but let’s just say, you think we’re acting accordingly & I think we’ve wasted opportunities. Was nice to keep it civil.
Matic is a phenomenal DM. We don't have a DM issue. We have a CB issue with our lead CB that's supposed to organize the defence a complete liability.
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And tbh with you, Maguire was a player that according to Daniel Taylor (The Athletic), that was deemed not of the required quality for a club of United's ambitions by the decision makers on the football side of the club. He wrote quite a few articles on the subject in 2018, and I can link one of those articles if you or anyone else would like to have a read. So it seems the club's scouts were ignored in favour of the next men in, who were Solskjaer and Maguire's former manager at Hull City, Mike Phelan. They were also afforded the luxury of having their own personal scout in Simon Wells. And when I got to learn about that, I was worried.
I completely understand your frustration mate and I feel the same. But I'm looking at this right now as a new dawn at the club, with recruitment hopefully being streamlined/aligned towards a guiding principle. And when you have a big scouting network with several heads of department reporting to one man, then the potential to create the best conditions for a prospective head coach to succeed will be a real possibility. Because it's more beneficial to have the DoF backed by 10 heads of department, 60 full-time scouts, and a further 300 casual scouts, than a manager with a few of his own scouts, like we saw with the previous managers.
I'm still hopeful about making the top 4, but my primary concern as a United fan right now is how they're now going to go about hiring the new head coach, and then how they will align/streamline the recruitment to fit into a particular way of playing the game.
Well run clubs have recruitment departments who control the recruitment at their respective clubs. We've had managers doing that, until now. So I agree, we haven't been run well for the reasons mentioned. But I'm hopeful that will now change due to the reasons explained below.
And tbh with you, Maguire was a player that according to Daniel Taylor (The Athletic), that was deemed not of the required quality for a club of United's ambitions by the decision makers on the football side of the club. He wrote quite a few articles on the subject in 2018, and I can link one of those articles if you or anyone else would like to have a read. So it seems the club's scouts were ignored in favour of the next men in, who were Solskjaer and Maguire's former manager at Hull City, Mike Phelan. They were also afforded the luxury of having their own personal scout in Simon Wells. And when I got to learn about that, I was worried.
I completely understand your frustration mate and I feel the same. But I'm looking at this right now as a new dawn at the club, with recruitment hopefully being streamlined/aligned towards a guiding principle. And when you have a big scouting network with several heads of department reporting to one man, then the potential to create the best conditions for a prospective head coach to succeed will be a real possibility. Because it's more beneficial to have the DoF backed by 10 heads of department, 60 full-time scouts, and a further 300 casual scouts, than a manager with a few of his own scouts, like we saw with the previous managers.
I'm still hopeful about making the top 4, but my primary concern as a United fan right now is how they're now going to go about hiring the new head coach, and then how they will align/streamline the recruitment to fit into a particular way of playing the game.
In January, there was still this delusion that we were close enough to being an elite squad that we could hold out until the summer to bring in a special DM.
It would be pretty unusual to spend a shitload of cash on a player when we don't even have a permanent manager. You can imagine the next three in May- 'Why did we spunk £Xm on a player when we don't have a manager' or when the new manager doesn't want him. It wouldn't have guaranteed top four anyway.
It was logical decision based on the fact that we did not even have a permanent manager in place yet.
The mistake was not to sign one at the start of the season.
The mistake was not to sign one at the start of the season.
It's just their "findings" don't give you any confidence so far. So what change is there on their method identifying players?
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The £10m reportedly required for Kamara wasn't a huge sum and in the context of the importance of CL football, the impact of missing it and the fact that we have to compete for a limited talent pool with the same teams that would take our CL place it was a foolish decision not to proceed with the signing.
Ever since United saw Liverpool succeed with Van Dijk and Allison they are obsessed with the concept of the one transitional big money signing that would fix all issues with a section of the pitch forgetting that it's a team game. Even the best DM in the world wouldn't be transformative when he is made to play with McTominay or an inconsistent Fred. Multiple lower risk signings are a better bet as they will spread the risk and give you balance for at least the time being.
Yesterday there was a freeze doing rounds on the internet where Maguire abandoned his line to step into midfield to try and cover a hole left behind McFred as they failed to track Atleti's midfield. People will blame Maguire for that movement but I think our defense is also unsettled because they know, unconsciously, that there is no screening whatsoever in front of them so they play with that in mind.
Kamara may not be a world beater but you don't need world beaters in every position you need players that satisfy the required profiles. You see the difference when Matic plays despite the erosion of the little athletic qualities he had. It was stupid to start the 2019-20 season without signing a DM and it has gotten to criminal negligence levels every window we ignore this signing.
This. I hope we miss out on top 6, I hope we finish as low as possible now. They will have no choice but to give attention and money and actually improve us.
And Liverpool signed Van Dijk in January too!
The failure to back Ralf with a signing also sent out a fatal sign to the dressing room: If the Board aren't behind this guy, why should we be? It made clear that Ralf was just a placeholder and that his advice on the squad was not valued. These players respond to signs like that. We've seen it with other coaches. From that point onwards Ralf was effectively a lame duck.
From January, 3 games destroyed our top 4 hopes, Burnley 1-1, Southampton 1-1 and Watford 0-0.
A new DM new to the PL wouldn't have changed those results.
A new DM new to the PL wouldn't have changed those results.
It wouldn't of mattered in the grand scheme of things - the squad is not were it should be mentally, physically or tactically, so bringing in one more player isnt going to fix everything.
You literally need to ship out at least 10-12 players over the next few seasons(one transfer window is impossible) - to try and give the new manager as close to a blank piece of paper as possible, and give him a budget to start putting the jigsaw back together and build his team.
We have got to accept not being anywhere near the title or even champions league football for at least 3 years while this process begins again. I for one have made peace with that, if they appoint the right man, back him to rebuild then that's the way to move forward - long gone are the days when we can just throw more money at it - I dont think getting Man Utd into more debt is the answer for short term solutions, and risking our football club.
With regard to recruitment :-
Firstly, they need to identify the right characters (on and off the pitch) - this is fundamental as we have had too many players with poor mentality to the club and to the team(they dont play for each other - they play as individuals), this is evident both on and off the pitch since SAF left.
They need a strong spine and build around them - the GK is okay albeit I would like to see him command his box better, but they need to replace Maguire as the dominant Centre Half, Central Midfield is definitely in need of new recruit and upfront we need to find a solution of a reasonable age as Cavani and CR7 aren't getting any younger.
Skill set identification is key - ultimately how do you want them to play, and what do you want from a player in that position - do they have sufficient quality, are they lacking in any area's, are they young enough to be coached to improve any weaknesses in their game, are all considerations.
New manager needs both a hard and nurturing mentality - they need to know who is in charge, but they also need to be able to nurture the younger generation, inspire confidence, leadership and loyalty.
Its a sorry state of a football club at the moment - it can come back but not without due process.
You literally need to ship out at least 10-12 players over the next few seasons(one transfer window is impossible) - to try and give the new manager as close to a blank piece of paper as possible, and give him a budget to start putting the jigsaw back together and build his team.
We have got to accept not being anywhere near the title or even champions league football for at least 3 years while this process begins again. I for one have made peace with that, if they appoint the right man, back him to rebuild then that's the way to move forward - long gone are the days when we can just throw more money at it - I dont think getting Man Utd into more debt is the answer for short term solutions, and risking our football club.
With regard to recruitment :-
Firstly, they need to identify the right characters (on and off the pitch) - this is fundamental as we have had too many players with poor mentality to the club and to the team(they dont play for each other - they play as individuals), this is evident both on and off the pitch since SAF left.
They need a strong spine and build around them - the GK is okay albeit I would like to see him command his box better, but they need to replace Maguire as the dominant Centre Half, Central Midfield is definitely in need of new recruit and upfront we need to find a solution of a reasonable age as Cavani and CR7 aren't getting any younger.
Skill set identification is key - ultimately how do you want them to play, and what do you want from a player in that position - do they have sufficient quality, are they lacking in any area's, are they young enough to be coached to improve any weaknesses in their game, are all considerations.
New manager needs both a hard and nurturing mentality - they need to know who is in charge, but they also need to be able to nurture the younger generation, inspire confidence, leadership and loyalty.
Its a sorry state of a football club at the moment - it can come back but not without due process.
Who is now the leader in goals for us?
Seriously, I am not even a fan of CR7 but look at the forward options we have:
Martial: No impact and have been shipped to Spain, still little efforts have been made
Rashford: Best at PR and making lunch boxes for the underprivileged, football wise has been utter rubbish
Greenwood: Pending Transfer to Prison FC
And if we wanted Kamara, we’d have bought him. This is all just rage that the club doesn’t/didn’t want the players you wanted. Us not buying Kamara doesn’t mean we do/did not want a midfielder. It means we didn’t want Kamara, and people need to deal with that. There is no point in reeling off a list of players we could have signed in January if those are not players the club want.
And we signed Fernandes in January. And we’d have signed Rice or Bellingham in January if we could. January is not when Liverpool typically do their shopping, as shown by them initially trying all summer to buy Van Dijk.
I would estimate that 3/4s of clubs in the PL have a better DM than we do and we can't figure out a way to get one. I said it before, a decent and tidy DM in January would have given us a good chance at top 4 and CL money. Instead we miss out on top 4 and we'll pay an outrageous fee for Rice in the summer.
I think you meant to say "Matic WAS a phenomenal DM.